The Amber Compendium of Norse Myth: Chapter I, Yggdrasil

[Pain killer Jane]

58 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

The equivalent of the 'blacksmith's forge' at Winterfell would be the crypts and the subterranean tectonic/volcanic arena in general.  So when Bran is sent by Ned to overnight in the godswood in order to 'cleanse' himself, the same way the sword Ice is 'cleansed' in the pool, that is Bran being fashioned into a sword; and when he's hiding out in the Winterfell crypt, this aids the opening of his third eye substantially. Symbolically, he's a broken sword undergoing reforging.

That is an excellent way to think about that. 

[Pain killer Jane]

1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

hat do you think about Ned and Arthur as Holly and Oak kings respectively?  Also, what puzzles me is why Arthur says 'now it begins' -- What is beginning from his perspective?  Whereas Ned says 'now it ends' -- perhaps that means the long summer is ending and Winter is Coming'!

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

"No," Ned said with sadness in his voice. "Now it ends." As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. "Eddard!" she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.

"Lord Eddard," Lyanna called again.

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The old men called this weather spirit summer, and said it meant the season was giving up its ghosts at last. After this the cold would come, they warned, and a long summer always meant a long winter. This summer had lasted ten years. Jon had been a babe in arms when it began.

- Jon VII, aGoT (p.s. look at the chapter number 7)

Could be that Jon was born in that liminal period between Winter and Spring. Could be related to sweetsunray's sacrificing of the white bull, the mourning star, a white/black bat? And probably another layer why Mel wants to sacrifice Mance's son as he is kingsblood and born in the spirit summer, Autumn, another technical liminal period between Summer and Winter. 

Its a miracle that I remember things like that and I don't remember my own words......:sigh: 

[Bluetiger]

Arthur Dayne The King of Summer vs Eddard Stark the King of Winter

This is the very first mention of Ser Arthur Dayne, from Game of Thrones:

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That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband's soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur's sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

Here we get probably Oak King vs Holly King variation:

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In the dream his friends rode with him, as they had in life. Proud Martyn Cassel, Jory's father; faithful Theo Wull; Ethan Glover, who had been Brandon's squire; Ser Mark Ryswell, soft of speech and gentle of heart; the crannogman, Howland Reed; Lord Dustin on his great red stallion. Ned had known their faces as well as he knew his own once, but the years leech at a man's memories, even those he has vowed never to forget. In the dream they were only shadows, grey wraiths on horses made of mist.

They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone. Across his white-enameled helm, the black bat of his House spread its wings. Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

Ned's companions are Winter King's army, Arthur's two friends are, as we'll see later, Knights of Summer:

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"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

Ned thought that they'd be at Storm's End with Redwyne's and Tarly's host from the Reach.

Maybe this whole Ned vs Arthur scene is based on ritual that'd place in spring:

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James George Frazer, The Golden Bough

Chapter 28. The Killing of the Tree-Spirit.

Section 5. Battle of Summer and Winter.

SOMETIMES in the popular customs of the peasantry the contrast between the dormant powers of vegetation in winter and their awakening vitality in spring takes the form of a dramatic contest between actors who play the parts respectively of Winter and Summer. Thus in the towns of Sweden on May Day two troops of young men on horseback used to meet as if for mortal combat. One of them was led by a representative of Winter clad in furs, who threw snowballs and ice in order to prolong the cold weather. The other troop was commanded by a representative of Summer covered with fresh leaves and flowers. In the sham fight which followed the party of Summer came off victorious, and the ceremony ended with a feast. Again, in the region of the middle Rhine, a representative of Summer clad in ivy combats a representative of Winter clad in straw or moss and finally gains a victory over him. The vanquished foe is thrown to the ground and stripped of his casing of straw, which is torn to pieces and scattered about, while the youthful comrades of the two champions sing a song to commemorate the defeat of Winter by Summer. Afterwards they carry about a summer garland or branch and collect gifts of eggs and bacon from house to house. Sometimes the champion who acts the part of Summer is dressed in leaves and flowers and wears a chaplet of flowers on his head. In the Palatinate this mimic conflict takes place on the fourth Sunday in Lent. All over Bavaria the same drama used to be acted on the same day, and it was still kept up in some places down to the middle of the nineteenth century or later. While Summer appeared clad all in green, decked with fluttering ribbons, and carrying a branch in blossom or a little tree hung with apples and pears, Winter was muffled up in cap and mantle of fur and bore in his hand a snow-shovel or a flail. Accompanied by their respective retinues dressed in corresponding attire, they went through all the streets of the village, halting before the houses and singing staves of old songs, for which they received presents of bread, eggs, and fruit. Finally, after a short struggle, Winter was beaten by Summer and ducked in the village well or driven out of the village with shouts and laughter into the forest.   1

 

  At Goepfritz in Lower Austria, two men personating Summer and Winter used to go from house to house on Shrove Tuesday, and were everywhere welcomed by the children with great delight. The representative of Summer was clad in white and bore a sickle; his comrade, who played the part of Winter, had a fur-cap on his head, his arms and legs were swathed in straw, and he carried a flail. In every house they sang verses alternately. At Drömling in Brunswick, down to the present time, the contest between Summer and Winter is acted every year at Whitsuntide by a troop of boys and a troop of girls. The boys rush singing, shouting, and ringing bells from house to house to drive Winter away; after them come the girls singing softly and led by a May Bride, all in bright dresses and decked with flowers and garlands to represent the genial advent of spring. Formerly the part of Winter was played by a straw-man which the boys carried with them; now it is acted by a real man in disguise.   2

 

  Among the Central Esquimaux of North America the contest between representatives of summer and winter, which in Europe has long degenerated into a mere dramatic performance, is still kept up as a magical ceremony of which the avowed intention is to influence the weather. In autumn, when storms announce the approach of the dismal Arctic winter, the Esquimaux divide themselves into two parties called respectively the ptarmigans and the ducks, the ptarmigans comprising all persons born in winter, and the ducks all persons born in summer. A long rope of sealskin is then stretched out, and each party laying hold of one end of it seeks by tugging with might and main to drag the other party over to its side. If the ptarmigans get the worst of it, then summer has won the game and fine weather may be expected to prevail through the winter.   3

So, the Summer figure can be clad in white - just like Arthur of the Summer Sea is...

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

House Forrester while their sigil isn't attested to in the novel is part of one of the video games and their sigil is two weirwoods superimposed upon each other and a black sword inside of them. 

 

2 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Hmm... That evokes Branstokkr...

Branstokkr, and Gram as a BLACK SWORD

[Bluetiger]

Another interesting chapter from The Golden Bough:

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In Semic (Bohemia) the custom of beheading the King is observed on Whit-Monday. A troop of young people disguise themselves; each is girt with a girdle of bark and carries a wooden sword and a trumpet of willow-bark. The King wears a robe of tree-bark adorned with flowers, on his head is a crown of bark decked with flowers and branches, his feet are wound about with ferns, a mask hides his face, and for a sceptre he has a hawthorn switch in his hand. A lad leads him through the village by a rope fastened to his foot, while the rest dance about, blow their trumpets, and whistle. In every farmhouse the King is chased round the room, and one of the troop, amid much noise and outcry, strikes with his sword a blow on the King’s robe of bark till it rings again. Then a gratuity is demanded. The ceremony of decapitation, which is here somewhat slurred over, is carried out with a greater semblance of reality in other parts of Bohemia. Thus in some villages of the Königgrätz district on Whit-Monday the girls assemble under one lime-tree and the young men under another, all dressed in their best and tricked out with ribbons. The young men twine a garland for the Queen, and the girls another for the King. When they have chosen the King and Queen they all go in procession two and two, to the ale-house, from the balcony of which the crier proclaims the names of the King and Queen. Both are then invested with the insignia of their office and are crowned with the garlands, while the music plays up. Then some one gets on a bench and accuses the King of various offences, such as ill-treating the cattle. The King appeals to witnesses and a trial ensues, at the close of which the judge, who carries a white wand as his badge of office, pronounces a verdict of “Guilty,” or “Not guilty.” If the verdict is “Guilty,” the judge breaks his wand, the King kneels on a white cloth, all heads are bared, and a soldier sets three or four hats, one above the other, on his Majesty’s head. The judge then pronounces the word “Guilty” thrice in a loud voice, and orders the crier to behead the King. The crier obeys by striking off the King’s hats with the wooden sword.   5

  But perhaps, for our purpose, the most instructive of these mimic executions is the following Bohemian one. In some places of the Pilsen district (Bohemia) on Whit-Monday the King is dressed in bark, ornamented with flowers and ribbons; he wears a crown of gilt paper and rides a horse, which is also decked with flowers. Attended by a judge, an executioner, and other characters, and followed by a train of soldiers, all mounted, he rides to the village square, where a hut or arbour of green boughs has been erected under the May-trees, which are firs, freshly cut, peeled to the top, and dressed with flowers and ribbons. After the dames and maidens of the village have been criticised and a frog beheaded, the cavalcade rides to a place previously determined upon, in a straight, broad street. Here they draw up in two lines and the King takes to flight. He is given a short start and rides off at full speed, pursued by the whole troop. If they fail to catch him he remains King for another year, and his companions must pay his score at the ale-house in the evening. But if they overtake and catch him he is scourged with hazel rods or beaten with the wooden swords and compelled to dismount. Then the executioner asks, “Shall I behead this King?” The answer is given, “Behead him”; the executioner brandishes his axe, and with the words, “One, two, three, let the King headless be!” he strikes off the King’s crown. Amid the loud cries of the bystanders the King sinks to the ground; then he is laid on a bier and carried to the nearest farmhouse.   6

  In most of the personages who are thus slain in mimicry it is impossible not to recognise representatives of the tree-spirit or spirit of vegetation, as he is supposed to manifest himself in spring. The bark, leaves, and flowers in which the actors are dressed, and the season of the year at which they appear, show that they belong to the same class as the Grass King, King of the May, Jack-in-the-Green, and other representatives of the vernal spirit of vegetation which we examined in an earlier part of this work. As if to remove any possible doubt on this head, we find that in two cases these slain men are brought into direct connexion with May-trees, which are the impersonal, as the May King, Grass King, and so forth, are the personal representatives of the tree-spirit. The drenching of the Pfingstl with water and his wading up to the middle into the brook are, therefore, no doubt rain-charms like those which have been already described.   7

  But if these personages represent, as they certainly do, the spirit of vegetation in spring, the question arises, Why kill them? What is the object of slaying the spirit of vegetation at any time and above all in spring, when his services are most wanted? The only probable answer to this question seems to be given in the explanation already proposed of the custom of killing the divine king or priest. The divine life, incarnate in a material and mortal body, is liable to be tainted and corrupted by the weakness of the frail medium in which it is for a time enshrined; and if it is to be saved from the increasing enfeeblement which it must necessarily share with its human incarnation as he advances in years, it must be detached from him before, or at least as soon as, he exhibits signs of decay, in order to be transferred to a vigorous successor. This is done by killing the old representative of the god and conveying the divine spirit from him to a new incarnation. The killing of the god, that is, of his human incarnation, is therefore merely a necessary step to his revival or resurrection in a better form. Far from being an extinction of the divine spirit, it is only the beginning of a purer and stronger manifestation of it. If this explanation holds good of the custom of killing divine kings and priests in general, it is still more obviously applicable to the custom of annually killing the representative of the tree-spirit or spirit of vegetation in spring. For the decay of plant life in winter is readily interpreted by primitive man as an enfeeblement of the spirit of vegetation; the spirit has, he thinks, grown old and weak and must therefore be renovated by being slain and brought to life in a younger and fresher form. Thus the killing of the representative of the tree-spirit in spring is regarded as a means to promote and quicken the growth of vegetation. For the killing of the tree-spirit is associated always (we must suppose) implicitly, and sometimes explicitly also, with a revival or resurrection of him in a more youthful and vigorous form. So in the Saxon and Thüringen custom, after the Wild Man has been shot he is brought to life again by a doctor; and in the Wurmlingen ceremony there figures a Dr. Iron-Beard, who probably once played a similar part; certainly in another spring ceremony, which will be described presently, Dr. Iron-Beard pretends to restore a dead man to life. But of this revival or resurrection of the god we shall have more to say anon.

Vs:

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The High Septon knelt before Joffrey and his mother. "As we sin, so do we suffer," he intoned, in a deep swelling voice much louder than Father's. "This man has confessed his crimes in the sight of gods and men, here in this holy place." Rainbows danced around his head as he lifted his hands in entreaty. "The gods are just, yet Blessed Baelor taught us that they are also merciful. What shall be done with this traitor, Your Grace?"

A thousand voices were screaming, but Arya never heard them. Prince Joffrey … no, King Joffrey … stepped out from behind the shields of his Kingsguard. "My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father." He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, "But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!"

The crowd roared, and Arya felt the statue of Baelor rock as they surged against it. The High Septon clutched at the king's cape, and Varys came rushing over waving his arms, and even the queen was saying something to him, but Joffrey shook his head. Lords and knights moved aside as he stepped through, tall and fleshless, a skeleton in iron mail, the King's Justice. Dimly, as if from far off, Arya heard her sister scream. Sansa had fallen to her knees, sobbing hysterically. Ser Ilyn Payne climbed the steps of the pulpit.

(...)

High atop the pulpit, Ser Ilyn Payne gestured and the knight in black-and-gold gave a command. The gold cloaks flung Lord Eddard to the marble, with his head and chest out over the edge.

 

 

[Pain killer Jane]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

and of course, there's a play on whole, hole, and holy too!

And since it is related to motely, mottled, rags, we could look at the Tattered Prince, a grey prince with a cloak of many colors (seems reminiscent of Joseph and his Cloak of Many Colors) taking pieces of cloth from the men he has killed to make the blanket for his Grey/white horse (sort of like taking scalps, ears, teeth and since those pieces of cloth probably have dried blood on them then it would echo 'plucking of flowers' Loras does at the Tourney. ETA: Dunk the gallows knight taking Rohanne Webber's hair and possibly giving her an heir.)

And since I was researching Down To The River to Pray

due to its association of crown of stars with Hugor Hill and this theme of fools being knights, kings, princes, and bards. The song used to be Down in the Valley to Pray and originally a Slave hymn (I should point out that these slave hymns were used as maps for the underground railroad and thus should be considered a type of songline or dreaming track)

 I ran across this in Revelation 

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12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

² And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

³ And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

⁴ And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

⁵ And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

⁶ And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

 

And since we are on the subject of praying in rivers and being baptized, I should point out John the Baptiste totally Aeron Damphair.  

Side note: we might have to look at the goldenheart tree bows of the Summer Islands. I ran across this

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Revelation 6:2 

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

Joffrey gets a bow from the Prince of the Red Flower Valley and doesn't Dany receive a bow during her wedding? And a bow and horse sounds like the Dothraki or House Caswell's sigil withe one of their members being called the Black Centaur. 

[Pain killer Jane]

12 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Another interesting chapter from The Golden Bough:

Vs:

 

Reminds me of both the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland and Salome demanding the head of John the Baptist as payment for her Seven veil dance. 

[LmL]

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The figure you highlighted, namely 'Barth Blacksword' apart from being a wordplay on Garth, might also be a play on 'word' with 'sword'...so 'Blacks word'...evoking a sorcerer with a black spell like Bloodraven -- so perhaps the sword isn't black, but white!

No, the last conclusion doesn't make sense. Nothing about "Blacks word" implies a white sword. I like the rest of it though.

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

@Seams has identified that there is a wordplay on 'well' in the sense of a water repository in addition to the sense of well-being (the German 'wohl'), healthy, hale, whole, and therefore with holes in the ground -- which may be wells.

ETA: and of course, there's a play on whole, hole, and holy too!

This is the kind of loose analysis which annoys me. What evidence is there that Martin us uniting the idea of a well and well-being? And text to support?  You can't just say two words sound alike so there must be a connection because it seems clever. What do wells have to do with well being, in the text? On the contrary, wells seem to be associated with rebirth, sacrificing yourself for higher knowledge (odin / Mimir), etc. 

Same with sword and word - are there any examples of words being swords? I can't think of any...

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In this context, @Wizz-The-Smith and I have identified the association of water with the hollow hills and with weirwoods, e.g. Winterfell has its black pool, the Night Fort its well, Bloodraven's cavern the underground river and 'sunless sea', Horn Hill the pond into which Sam fell and nearly drowned, the House of Black and White the inky pool in the center whose waters bring the 'gift' of death, Casterly Rock the same black water in its cavernous depths (going by Jaime's dream), even the Red Keep (Arya swam through an underground channel to escape), etc.  Going by this pattern, I strongly suspect there should be a weirwood associated with the black pool into which Dany dipped for her purification ritual following the eating of the Stallion's Heart (Vaes Dothrak, the 'womb of the world').

Well, there isn't one, not directly.  However, there is a ton of Odin imagery there - the one eyed seer, the stallion who mounts the world (astral projection horse Yggdrasil), and that sort of thing. 

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

The notion of a wishing tree would also fit with the frequent association of weirwoods with wells (or other bodies of still, cold black water), and the symbolism of the well/web of Urdr (fate, etc.) at the base of Yggdrasil, so a wishing well, as you pointed out with the TS Eliot poem:

You don't need a poem, Martin has drawn the correlation between the moon and Odin's eye and between the well at the Nightfort and Mimir's well.  And again I am going to complain about keeping our analysis close to the text. This is the problem I have with the poetry thread, RR - unless we have a direct clue from the text that Martin has a specific poem in mind, it has nothing to do with ASOIAF. It's well and good to ruminate on poems that "remind you of ASOIAF," but I am really only interested in mythology or poetry or anything else which is suggested to us by the text, and I think the two should be kept separate.

I am not trying to be grumpy, I think it is important to root all of our analysis to the books. It's well and good to mine for all this mythology and see similarities, but we need the specific correlation to ASOIAF, because all of these ideas and and symbols are universal and are reused by everyone. Metallica's song was not in George's mind when he wrote the books, most likely - it's just a coincidence that he's talking about having one eye open and astral projection - or perhaps James Hetfield knows something about Odin. I am a stickler about this because I am constantly presenting mythology from the real world which I believe martin is referencing, and if we play fast and loose with that, we loose credibility. People are already skeptical of correlating everything in ASOIAF to external ideas, and even though they are mistaken, I really think the onus is on people like us to only reference external myth or poetry or whatever which is clearly alluded to in the books. 

Same goes for wordplay - it doesn't matter how clever an idea seems to us, unless it is implied in the books...  then it's just not relevant.  Your poetry thread is a lot of fun, but I do not see you trying to delineate between stuff that is cool or reminds you of the books vs. stuff you think Martin is actually referring to. You've sold me on the idea that he might be referring to some poetry, I'm not against the idea... but we need to make sure George is actually talking about it.

/rant

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

'A driftwood hall on an island' dovetails with the description of the Winterfell godswood as an 'island in the sea of chaos'.

Yes, and Riverrun an island in a sea of fire. The islands = Isle of Faces, so we should have weirwoods on the island and fire all around it (Gods Eye lake = sun)

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Stone contains metallic elements, like iron, so they are not really that different (but who knows -- that is science and maybe GRRM has invented a whole other definition for 'stone' quite apart from our 'real-world' geological norms, so I guess we'll never know for sure!)  Also, iron is a frequent component of meteorite.

Exactly, stone-born people and iron-born people are both meteor people. And again we have weirwoods growing from a rock, symbolically

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

3 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

House Vypren in the Riverlands with their black lilly pad and black toad. Definitely pointing at the toad being poisonous because the house name is derived from viper. And that member that seems like a parallel to the mummer's version of Asha. 

Perhaps the black lily pad is a kind of landing pad for the black toad -- aka meteorite coming in to land in the 'pond' from outer space!  Isn't there also a mysterious oily black stone toad of obscure origins somewhere?

Great find @Pain killer Jane, that's terrific and yes it equates the oily stone with poison, and in the riverlands close to Moat Cailin where we have oily stones and frog people. The lily pad implies a body of water, such as the bottomless black ponds and lakes we've been discussing.

 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Good catch!  That sigil could be many things, including the whorls of a rose, the eye of a hurricane, or the interlocking spirals of a galaxy.  

It also ties in to @LmL's idea of the column of ash rising like a tree or flower.  Additionally, I've indicated the pun on 'rose' used as a noun vs. verb -- i.e. in the latter, sense of 'rose from the dead,' 'rose from the ashes', etc.

It's described as a maelstrom in the wiki, so definitely the eye of a hurricane.  And the rose wordplay I can get behind, I found that one a long time ago as everything that symbolizes a morningstar tends to rise. "Drogon rose" appears a few times. And I have done a whole thing about flowers and how they relate to the moon, because heliotrope, besides being bloodstone, is also a purple flower, one variety of which is called a valerian. Tywin's army one time unfolds like an iron rose, thorns gleaming, and that is the moon exploding in black meteors, the black moon flower of black moon blood.  Thus I agree with the idea of thrones and thorns, that makes a lot of sense, especially given the barbs of the Iron Throne.  I've also seen a thorn bush take over the training yard of the brothers at the Nightfort, and at castle Black has a Thorne (Alliser) training the brothers in the yard. So given that the moon is a flower, the black rays of the dark sun (which are the meteors) are the thorns. Hence Lyanna's blue rose crown turning to a crown of thorns in Ned's dream, Jesus's crown of thorns, etc. The golden crown originally was modeled on the rays of the sun, so you should always think about crowns in that context first off. That makes the whitethorn finds very interesting, because black thorns represent an inversion and expresses the same dichotomy as the black iron crowns and weirwood crowns. 

 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

All of this could apply to Bran skinchanging a giant of course in order to approximate Ser Duncan's stature.  Playing with words, from a certain perspective Bran stuck in the 'hedge', maze, 'briar' or 'garth' of weirwoods is a kind of 'hedge knight' literally!  Similarly, being sacrificed to the tree (Sleipner-Yggdrasil as 'gallows horse') he's also a 'gallow's knight.'  Unlike Ser Duncan, I don't expect Bran to survive the hanging in the traditional sense, although I believe he'll skinchange all the elements and become universal -- just as was intimated in Varamyr's prologue.

I plan to do an episode on the three D&E novellas, because they are all packed with mythical astronomy. Good catch on hedge knight = briars, that makes sense.  Ok, so for example, Dunk is described as tree like on many occassions, and what does Daeron the drunkard dream of? A dragon falling on top of him - the dragon is dead, he is alive. That is the black moon meteor - a dead dragon - falling on the tree to make the flaming tree. It's the star and tree in his sigil, and the burning tree creates a gallows knight, a greenseer hung on weirdrasil.  

His horse is named thunder for God's sake. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I was reading a few of @Voice's theories, including his idea that the central event which 'broke' the cycle and sent the seasons spinning out of whack was the duel between Ned Stark vs. Arthur Dayne.  He interprets this as a primal contest between the Stark (Star + Dark) representing the 'Night's King' line and Dayne (Day + Dawn) representing the 'Sword of the Morning'.  He asserts, when the Night felled the Day, it was a signal for the Others and Winter to return en force.  There is something to this theory, particularly as Voice points out the blue eyes of death exploding across the sky in a storm of petals appear for the first time in the very moment as Arthur dies, together with the ouroboros imagery of the beginning and ending conjoining (now it begins/ends) which seems significant.  What do you think about Ned and Arthur as Holly and Oak kings respectively?  Also, what puzzles me is why Arthur says 'now it begins' -- What is beginning from his perspective?  Whereas Ned says 'now it ends' -- perhaps that means the long summer is ending and Winter is Coming'!

So here's the interesting thing about that.  The King of Winter, as I have demonstrated, is a being of fire. And Ned has the black dragon sword, so that lines up (even if he didn't use it at the ToJ). But the KG, they represent Others - beings of ice. It's very clear - pale or white shadows, snowy or ghostly armor in the moonlight, KG are 'white swords', Others are milky white and sword-slim, etc. The Others' swords are called 'pale blades' while Dawn is a white sword made from a pale stone. Dawn is pale as milkglass, the Others bones are pale as milkglass. So while Voice may be right about Ned = NK / team darkness, and Arthur = SOTM / team daylight, the ice and fire alignments are the opposite of what you would expect, and thus I don't know if his conclusion makes sense. Arthur represents an Other, a white shadow with snowy armor and a pale sword of milkglass, so how does his defeat enable the Others? The King of Winter is a fiery dude (even if its 'frozen fire', it's still fire) who is king over winter, so his victory should actually represent a curtailing of winter.  Im not sure if that logic holds or if this event actually has anything to do with the Others, but what I am confident in is the fire associations of the KoW and the icy associations of the KG

[LmL]

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

In the rl version it would mean hanging bits of cloth from the branches for wishes, in most cases the wishes were from lovers. It would look like a May Pole if the tree was a flowering tree. GRRM is saying that prayer is wishing. Hanging people from trees as a sacrifice was meant to  bribe the gods on the fulfillment of prayers i.e. a wishes. And so a scarecrow is a may pole/man pole. A hanging tree was meant to convey the wishes of humanity to the Good People aka the Fey i.e. the Children of the Forest. 

Penny Tree in the town of Penny tree is an oak tree that has copper pennies stuck to it. There is a penny tree in England in rl if I am remembering that. A tall tree filled with metal would attract lightning. Renly is the bright copper per Donal Noye, sacrificed by Stannis and was resurrected as Garland who is now the Lord of Brightwater Keep where we find the sigil of House Florent with its crown of blue rose and red wolf. The town of Pennytree is in between the Teats (in the middle of the chest of a woman where the heart is) and is constantly fought over by House Blackwood (Greenseers) and House Bracken (Horse people/dragon people if consider Drogo's rebirth as Drogon. Red Horse turning into a Black dragon.) The Penny Tree is also in between the blacksmith's and a duck pond. This would look like the Hearttree in Winterfell with the pond and we find the Penny Tree next to a blacksmith where swords are made. 

And something else we should consider. Hugh the Hammer(formally a blacksmith), dragonseed traitor (going from black to green) riding Vermithor (a combo of Vermillion - red color and Thor for the lightning God) the Bronze Fury (Bronze being an alloy of Copper). And since we have First Men running around with bronze swords and axes cutting down Hearttrees, it would be an echo of Lightbringer (lightning, fire of the gods, spear, sword, burning brand) plunging into the heart of NN. 

ETA: I also wanted to add that a copper surrounded by fire can be found in the sigil of House Thenn which was created when Alys Karstark (Icy moon maiden) married Sigorn son of Styr with his ash and bronze spear and bronze scale armor. That armor should remind us of House Royce and their Bronze Armor covered in runes and their home is called Runestone (ruin-stone). 

Really great stuff here, I have to chew on this. I have noticed Pennytree being in between the teats before too, and I agree that makes it a heart. Those teats are the two moons, or at least, George is using the idea of a pair of breasts for moon symbolism (milk and moonlight after all). 

 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

And of course iron is vital component of blood and its oxygen-trapping and -carrying capacity, and also responsible in part for the red pigmentation.  GRRM highlights all the time that blood tastes metallic -- iron and copper-- and salty.

Nods in agreement

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

2 hours ago, Pain killer Jane said:

sorry I meant white lilly pad. I made things opposite. I made the white lilly pad, black and the black snake in the Wyl sigil green. It might mean something if I am slipping like that. 

Works even better if lily pad is white (corresponding to weirwood) and toad is black (meteor/dragon)!

It does actually. The white pad is the landing spot for the black toad stones.  Lilly could = Lillith, as in :

In Jewish folklore, from the satirical book Alphabet of Ben Sira (ca 700–1000 CE) onwards, Lilith appears as Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time (Rosh Hashanah) and from the same dirt as Adam – compare Genesis 1:27. (This contrasts with Eve, who was created from one of Adam's ribs: Genesis 2:22) The legend developed extensively during the Middle Ages, in the tradition of Aggadic midrashim, the Zohar, and Jewish mysticism.[3] For example, in the 13th-century writings of Rabbi Isaac ben Jacob ha-Cohen, Lilith left Adam after she refused to become subservient to him and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she had coupled with the archangel Samael.[4] The resulting Lilith legend continues to serve as source material in modern Western culture, literature, occultism, fantasy, and horror.

Lillith could work as a Nissa Nissa weirwood, coupling with the archangel Azor Ahai. 

2 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

I think if you are 'slipping' it means that GRRM enjoys inversions -- and confusing us!

Indeed. Jon Snow, dressed all in black. Black gate, bone white. Nothing means anything anymore.

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

 

Branstokkr, and Gram as a BLACK SWORD

It's funny that this was brought up.  I have a theory that Jon's storyline is vaguely following the story arc of the sword Gramm.  And if that continues, we should expect to see Jon broken in half after his run in with his Night's Watch brothers.  Which I think means, a part of Jon's psyche escaped into Ghost, upon his death, and Jon's body will be resurrected by Melisandre, but when it returns, it will be controlled by the "shadow" aspect of Jon's psyche.  So we will have two Jons, the Oathkeeper aspect of Jon residing in Ghost (the hilt of the sword), and the "Widow's wail" aspect of Jon resurrected in fire (the blade of the sword also known as the pointy end).  Which also harkens back to the shadows Dany sees in MMD's tent, the burning man and the great wolf, both being aspects of Jon.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Arthur Dayne The King of Summer vs Eddard Stark the King of Winter

This is the very first mention of Ser Arthur Dayne, from Game of Thrones:

Here we get probably Oak King vs Holly King variation:

Ned's companions are Winter King's army, Arthur's two friends are, as we'll see later, Knights of Summer:

Ned thought that they'd be at Storm's End with Redwyne's and Tarly's host from the Reach.

Maybe this whole Ned vs Arthur scene is based on ritual that'd place in spring:

So, the Summer figure can be clad in white - just like Arthur of the Summer Sea is...

I don't think so, because the KG are so clearly representative of the Others. I mean, inversions and all that, but with the relentless labelling of the KG as white shadows with snowy cloaks and armor, it's hard to see them as the oak king figure. 

I don't think this fight is a Oak King Holly King thing at all. There is no oak king here, whatsoever.  Arthur has no oak symbolism, no green symbolism, and neither do his companions. Rather, i think this is a confrontation between forces of winter, on both sides. Ned is the KoW, a burning green man, and his wraiths could be like the undead NW brothers.  He's fighting against pale shadows, standing in for the Others.  The KoW aligns closely with the last hero, and here he is fighting white shadows. 

[Bluetiger]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Arthur Dayne The King of Summer vs Eddard Stark the King of Winter

This is the very first mention of Ser Arthur Dayne, from Game of Thrones:

Here we get probably Oak King vs Holly King variation:

Ned's companions are Winter King's army, Arthur's two friends are, as we'll see later, Knights of Summer:

Ned thought that they'd be at Storm's End with Redwyne's and Tarly's host from the Reach.

Maybe this whole Ned vs Arthur scene is based on ritual that'd place in spring:

So, the Summer figure can be clad in white - just like Arthur of the Summer Sea is...

I don't think so, because the KG are so clearly representative of the Others. I mean, inversions and all that, but with the relentless labelling of the KG as white shadows with snowy cloaks and armor, it's hard to see them as the oak king figure. 

I don't think this fight is a Oak King Holly King thing at all. There is no oak king here, whatsoever.  Arthur has no oak symbolism, no green symbolism, and neither

What about Ser Arys Oakheart of Old Oak, a White Knight of the Kingsguard?

[Pain killer Jane]

24 minutes ago, LmL said:

No, the last conclusion doesn't make sense. Nothing about "Blacks word" implies a white sword. I like the rest of it though.

Unless we take word to mean promise or oath like perhaps a knight's oath and a knight's sword. 

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

Another interesting chapter from The Golden Bough:

Vs:

 

Not seeing a very strong correlation there. It's just a beheading - what other matching symbolism is there? 

Also, just a question, do we have clues that the Golden Bough is something referenced by Martin? I am thinking I have heard that it is, but cannot recall

2 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

What about Ser Arys Oakheart of Old Oak, a White Knight of the Kingsguard?

If he had been at the ToJ, you'd have something. As of right now, his symbolism is as one who used to be an oak king but turned icy.  It's the same as when we see fire people become KG - it equates to becoming an Other, transforming into ice. We do think that greenseers turned into Others, so that makes sense. 

[LmL]

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It's funny that this was brought up.  I have a theory that Jon's storyline is vaguely following the story arc of the sword Gramm.  And if that continues, we should expect to see Jon broken in half after his run in with his Night's Watch brothers.  Which I think means, a part of Jon's psyche escaped into Ghost, upon his death, and Jon's body will be resurrected by Melisandre, but when it returns, it will be controlled by the "shadow" aspect of Jon's psyche.  So we will have two Jons, the Oathkeeper aspect of Jon residing in Ghost (the hilt of the sword), and the "Widow's wail" aspect of Jon resurrected in fire (the blade of the sword also known as the pointy end).  Which also harkens back to the shadows Dany sees in MMD's tent, the burning man and the great wolf, both being aspects of Jon.

That is a cool idea, like it and I will think on it. It implies we need to reforge some of these broken swords, right? Do you think we will see OK and WW reunited, or one of those united with the white sword?

[Frey family reunion]

Just now, LmL said:

That is a cool idea, like it and I will think on it. It implies we need to reforge some of these broken swords, right? Do you think we will see OK and WW reunited, or one of those united with the white sword?

I'm not sure about the mechanism of the reforging, but if I had to guess, Jon's psyche reunites in one of the dragons (perhaps Viserion if we go with the white sword analogy).  And since Gramm was used to to slay Fafnir, then perhaps Dragon/Jon slays Dragon/Tyrion, depending on how close GRRM wants to follow the analogy. 

[Bluetiger]

4 minutes ago, LmL said:

Also, just a question, do we have clues that the Golden Bough is something referenced by Martin? I am thinking I have heard that it is, but cannot recall

It might be a coincidence but:

Quote

(Storm of Swords, Bran I)

Long they fought, rolling together over roots and stones and fallen leaves and the scattered entrails of the prey, tearing at each other with tooth and claw, breaking apart, circling each round the other, and bolting in to fight again. The prince was larger, and much the stronger, but his cousin had a pack. The female prowled around them closely, snuffing and snarling, and would interpose herself whenever her mate broke off bloodied. From time to time the other wolves would dart in as well, to snap at a leg or an ear when the prince was turned the other way. One angered him so much that he whirled in a black fury and tore out the attacker's throat. After that the others kept their distance.

And as the last red light was filtering through green boughs and golden, the old wolf lay down weary in the dirt, and rolled over to expose his throat and belly. It was submission.

The prince sniffed at him and licked the blood from fur and torn flesh. When the old wolf gave a soft whimper, the direwolf turned away. He was very hungry now, and the prey was his.

 

[Bluetiger]

11 minutes ago, LmL said:

Not seeing a very strong correlation there. It's just a beheading - what other matching symbolism is there? 

Just general 'Killing King of Winter for his crimes' concept... I'm probably overinterpreting it, as I've spent so much time analysing all those Winter vs Summer myths for my own purposes.

[LmL]

10 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Just general 'Killing King of Winter for his crimes' concept... I'm probably overinterpreting it, as I've spent so much time analysing all those Winter vs Summer myths for my own purposes.

It seems like a variation on the sacrificed fertility god theme which does not use a summer / winter duality, but simply has one god wjich dies and is reborn to bring the spring. 

[Bluetiger]

4 minutes ago, LmL said:

It seems like a variation on the sacrificed fertility god theme which does not use a summer / winter duality, but simply has one god wjich dies and is reborn to bring the spring. 

Indeed...

In terms of symbolism, some sacrifice around the time of Robert's Rebellion brought about the Long Summer... But which death it was? White Bull's? Aerys' ? Arthur's? Rhaegar's? Lyannna's? Brandon's? Rickard's? Ashara's?