The Amber Compendium of Norse Myth: Chapter I, Yggdrasil

[Pain killer Jane]

22 minutes ago, LmL said:

 

 

I have noticed this quote before too but wasn't sure what to make of the white roses. Your info about lightning trees and the Sidhe is really interesting though, isn't it? And then that line, right by it, thinking Jon was an Other. Of course the Others are connected to lightning a few times - they move as quick as lightning, and the broken sword of Waymar looks like a tree twisted by a lightning strike. 

Don't forget about the Penny Tree. An oak which like you said is known for being struck by lighting. 

Between a duck pond and a blacksmith's forge, he came upon the tree that gave the place its name, an oak ancient and tall. Its gnarled roots twisted in and out of the earth like a nest of slow brown serpents, and hundreds of old copper pennies had been nailed to its huge trunk.

- Jaime I, aDwD

Arlan of Pennytree (with his winged chalice) with his horse, Thunder- who served Lord Dondarrion, a lighting lord. And then his squire Dunk became a gallows knight. 

Oh Btw the way, another reference to the Cutting of the Elm is found at the Tree of Crowns in the disputed lands (which is interesting because the town of Pennytree is disputed over by House Blackwood and House Bracken) when the Ninepenny kings declared war on the known world. They wanted nine realms for themselves and swore under a tree to do as such. 

[Pain killer Jane]

6 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

@ravenous reader, I remember that there was some connection between wolves and raggs, but I don't recall it now...

Here is 'raggs' etymology from Wiktionary:

Btw, in Latvian rag = horn.

Rag usually reminds me of "are you on your rag?" as a way of having menstruation. And as we know there are a ton of references to that. Sansa's white dress having the blood orange juice on it that she then dyes black which if you think about it resembles Mance's raggedy cloak with patches of red silk.  

[Bluetiger]

I have it!

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In Norse mythology, Garmr or Garm(Old Norse "rag") is a wolf or dog associated with both Hel and Ragnarök, and described as a blood-stained guardian of Hel's gate.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmr?wprov=sfla1)

 

[Bluetiger]

I was thinking about whitewashing... 

It's done to protect trees (like Yggdrasil in myth), and weirwood trunks are 'whitewashed'.

But if @LmL is right, The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai was whitewashed as well... The villain became the hero.

So he is a tree - a weirwood. That lines up very nicely with all your previous ideas of him being a greenseer and skinchanger.

[Pain killer Jane]

4 hours ago, LmL said:

Well, a rising mushroom cloud of ash and smoke grow at each impact, like a tree of ash. I made this association between the broken shaft of the ash wood spear planted in the Mountain's chest by Oberyn

For some reason this reminds me of Longinus the blind centurion that killed Christ on the cross out of mercy. Legend holds that once the Christ's blood sprayed on his face he was able to see and we do have quite a few people that are blind that are able to 'see' in a different way. 

Which this parallels to Odin piercing himself with a spear while he was hanging on Yggy. 

And this would make sense with your trapped Garth theory. If the Garth was the sacrifice and bound to the tree (like Christ on the cross) and then greenseers were given power from the Weirwood as we see with the Jojen paste (then that would be Longinus the soldier being given power and then both this, Odin and the lighting struck dead guys would be Robert Baratheon, a storm lord fertility god and Berric Dondarrion, a lighting lord scarecrow).  

[Frey family reunion]

1 hour ago, LmL said:

 

 

I have noticed this quote before too but wasn't sure what to make of the white roses. Your info about lightning trees and the Sidhe is really interesting though, isn't it? And then that line, right by it, thinking Jon was an Other. Of course the Others are connected to lightning a few times - they move as quick as lightning, and the broken sword of Waymar looks like a tree twisted by a lightning strike. 

I don't know if this helps or not but this quote:

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As he rode past a lightning blasted chestnut tree overgrown with wild white roses, he heard something rustling in the underbrush.

seems a reference to two different things.  The lightning blasted chestnut tree is an important symbol in Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre.  My wife's a fan of Bronte, not me, but it's my understanding that it references the state of the marriage of the main character.

The wild white roses on the other hand, may have come from a legend about the War of the Roses bloodiest battle, the Battle of Towton.  The legend has it wild white roses (now called Towton roses) grew on the battlefield, where House York defeated House Lancaster.

Edit:  The person who emerged from the underbrush was Dywen, he of the oaken teeth.  So the symbolism of the Green Man is very strong in this passage.

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

I was thinking about whitewashing... 

It's done to protect trees (like Yggdrasil in myth), and weirwood trunks are 'whitewashed'.

But if @LmL is right, The Bloodstone Emperor Azor Ahai was whitewashed as well... The villain became the hero.

So he is a tree - a weirwood. That lines up very nicely with all your previous ideas of him being a greenseer and skinchanger.

HAH, I love it. Don't forget if his eyes looked like bloodstone - the real stuff - they be green with flecks of red, greenseer eyes. 

But yeah! Whitewashed by the Starry Wisdom Church who started R'hllorism as a giant pro-Azor Ahai PR campaign. Worked like a charm! We even kept the part in about murdering his wife, and people still went for it!!

[ravenous reader]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

Daggers also seem to be associated with words - if you lose your sword, you use your dagger. But also, going on Tywin's advice, words are the other weapon one uses in war, besides swords.

The clearest connection seems to be after Theon is castrated, when his POVs often mention that he carries around a dagger. Following Ramsay's orders, he uses a dagger to cut off Jeyne Poole's wedding dress before performing oral sex on her. When he and Lady Dustin emerge from the crypt (=forge), they note that Theon would not want to lose his tongue. By contrast, Ser Ilyn Payne loses his tongue but is always associated with swords.

Hey @Seams.  I was looking at the dictionary definition of ragged, and guess what -- 'ragged' is related specifically to fabric 'fraying', 'ripping' and 'tearing' and therefore to 'seams' and 'wellsprings' and, as we've recently elucidated, to 'hymens' and 'sewing' and 'sowing' and therefore '(re)births' (and in that context, it's significant that Asha's dagger nestling between her breasts is referred to as her 'suckling babe')! 

We've considered 'ragged' and we've considered 'daggers'; but have we ever considered 'ragged daggers' -- in the sense of unconventional weapons which at first glance might seem marred and ineffectual?  I think daggers have to do with 'reforging the sword'.  Seeing as it's shorter than a long sword, a dagger might represent a 'broken' sword of sorts, and fall into the category possibly of a 'sword without a hilt' even...

For example, when Will in the prologue climbs the sentinel with the dagger clenched between his teeth which initially saves his life, firstly because he can climb freely without having to hold it in his hand or by a handle, and secondly because it silences him and he can not call out, thereby saving himself by not alerting the Others to his presence (he loses his voice symbolically a number of times in the prologue, the interpretation of the symbolism of which frustrated @evita mgfs and the rest of us, and still does).  Although a dagger wielded by a ragged one appears on the surface to be sub-standard practice, nevertheless not only should one not judge the efficacy of a ragged band of warriors by their appearance, but moreover an unorthodox blade might prove surprisingly useful, or even more effective in some circumstances, as made clear to Waymar in the Prologue (I keep returning to it!)

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Will could feel it. Four years in the Night's Watch, and he had never been so afraid. What was it?

"Wind. Trees rustling. A wolf. Which sound is it that unmans you so, Gared?" When Gared did not answer, Royce slid gracefully from his saddle. He tied the destrier securely to a low-hanging limb, well away from the other horses, and drew his longsword from its sheath. Jewels glittered in its hilt, and the moonlight ran down the shining steel. It was a splendid weapon, castle-forged, and new-made from the look of it. Will doubted it had ever been swung in anger.

"The trees press close here," Will warned. "That sword will tangle you up, m'lord. Better a knife."

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A Game of Thrones - Prologue

Ser Waymar looked him over with open disapproval. "I am not going back to Castle Black a failure on my first ranging. We will find these men." He glanced around. "Up the tree. Be quick about it. Look for a fire."

Will turned away, wordless. There was no use to argue. The wind was moving. It cut right through him. He went to the tree, a vaulting grey-green sentinel, and began to climb. Soon his hands were sticky with sap, and he was lost among the needles. Fear filled his gut like a meal he could not digest. He whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood, and slipped his dirk free of its sheath. He put it between his teeth to keep both hands free for climbing. The taste of cold iron in his mouth gave him comfort.

Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched.

So -- I'd say daggers might be associated with losing ones voice or words -- but in the same breath acquiring a new language.  Will for example is well-versed in the language of the woods, and this requires plenty of listening and watching in order to interpret what is going on around one.  His 'nature smarts' initially save his life -- he's lithe and furtive and alert as a squirrel, in contrast to Waymar bashing through the bush like a rhinoceros on steroids.

Analogously, Bloodraven -- another of the ragged ones (his clothes and body in tatters and literally fraying before our eyes) -- is depicted as someone who may have forgotten one 'language,' in lieu of which he has been gifted with another (namely, his greenseer powers and  'the song of the earth' humming through the weirwood network):

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams

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A Storm of Swords - Arya II

By then it was too late to flee. She could hear horses outside, and the sound of men's voices. A moment later a man came swaggering through the open door, a Tyroshi even bigger than Lem with a great thick beard, bright green at the ends but growing out grey. Behind came a pair of crossbowmen helping a wounded man between them, and then others . . .

A more ragged band Arya had never seen, but there was nothing ragged about the swords, axes, and bows they carried. One or two gave her curious glances as they entered, but no one said a word. A one-eyed man in a rusty pothelm sniffed the air and grinned, while an archer with a head of stiff yellow hair was shouting for ale. After them came a spearman in a lion-crested helm, an older man with a limp, a Braavosi sellsword, a . . .

"Harwin?" Arya whispered. It was! Under the beard and the tangled hair was the face of Hullen's son, who used to lead her pony around the yard, ride at quintain with Jon and Robb, and drink too much on feast days. He was thinner, harder somehow, and at Winterfell he had never worn a beard, but it was him—her father's man. "Harwin!" Squirming, she threw herself forward, trying to wrench free of Lem's iron grip. "It's me," she shouted, "Harwin, it's me, don't you know me, don't you?" The tears came, and she found herself weeping like a baby, just like some stupid little girl. "Harwin, it's me!"

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A Clash of Kings - Jon V

Just then one of the dogs had raised his head and growled, and he had to move away quickly, before he was seen. I was not meant to hear that, he thought. He considered taking the tale to Mormont, but he could not bring himself to inform on his brothers, even brothers such as Chett and the Sisterman. It was just empty talk, he told himself. They are cold and afraid; we all are. It was hard waiting here, perched on the stony summit above the forest, wondering what the morrow might bring. The unseen enemy is always the most fearsome.

Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served. Dolorous Edd opined that glass knives were about as useful as nipples on a knight's breastplate, but Jon was not so certain. The dragonglass blade was sharper than steel, albeit far more brittle.

It must have been buried for a reason.

 

 

2 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

@ravenous reader, I remember that there was some connection between wolves and raggs, but I don't recall it now...

Here is 'raggs' etymology from Wiktionary:

Same as Danish rag, Icelandic rogg, Norwegian ragg, Old English adjective raggig and English noun rag, all based on an Indoeuropean root ru ("to rip, tear"), Icelandic rýja ‎(“to rip the wool from sheep, to shear”), Latin ruo ‎(“to rip, dig”) and rutrum ‎(“a shovel”). In older times, wool was not cut or shorn from sheep, but ripped or torn off.

Btw, in Latvian rag = horn.

So basically what you're saying is that the 'ragged'  are 'ravenous' ones with 'dagger'-sharp teeth..!

1 hour ago, Blue Tiger said:

I have it!

Quote

In Norse mythology, Garmr or Garm(Old Norse "rag") is a wolf or dog associated with both Hel and Ragnarök, and described as a blood-stained guardian of Hel's gate.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garmr?wprov=sfla1)

Thanks Tigris, it's perfect!

2 hours ago, Seams said:

As rr mentioned, it's in the Puns and Wordplay thread.

 

Reading your associations again with a fresh Ei (I mean 'eye'), I'm wondering whether in addition to the following related concepts:

ragged, dagger, Gared, Edgar (Allan Poe), dragged, deserters, 'red trees' and eggs...

We might add: Yggdrasil itself!

Etymologically, the word is supposedly derived from 'yggr' meaning terrible or Odin, and 'drassil' meaning steed -- hence the terrible last ride on the 'gallows horse' as it's euphemistically called, albeit a primal callback to something symbolically more vast in magnitude than that.  When men are hanged, their feet involuntarily drum a frantic last gallop or ghastly 'dance' on their journey to the underworld, as the selfsame horse which ferries them to their destination simultaneously nips their life in the bud -- ultimately beheading them in a figurative sense.  Recall also that the ragged riders of the terrible steed -- the greenseers like Bran and Bloodraven, who are frequently described in ragged terms -- like Odin symbolically sacrifice themselves to the tree, 'hanging' themselves in order to acquire higher knowledge.

The weirwood is a demon tree like Ygg with a figurative bite, just like a sword, specifically the Valyrian 'frostbite' that took off Gared's head, as you and LmL discussed on your wordplay thread.  In essence, @Lost Melnibonean's quote about the lightning opening a path for the supernatural (Sidhe the analog of the Others) opened my eyes on your 'Seams and magic portals' thread to the possibility that Bran and the weirwood are weapons -- in conjunction with that quote from the Prologue in which the lightning-struck sword is compared to a crippled, twisted, disfigured tree branch, an obvious reference to Bran, the naughty tree-boy who climbed too high and was struck by lightning, as (fore)told by Nan.

We can now say that the weirwood is a horse in addition to being a form of Valyrian steel, magically transformed by blood-and-fire magic -- and wielded by Bran, the knight of the Kingsguard (Jon's) he always wanted to be.

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A Game of Thrones - Bran IV

The youngest of the black brothers shifted uncomfortably in his seat. "There's not a man on the Wall knows the haunted forest better than Benjen Stark. He'll find his way back."

"Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out."

All Bran could think of was Old Nan's story of the Others and the last hero, hounded through the white woods by dead men and spiders big as hounds. He was afraid for a moment, until he remembered how that story ended. "The children will help him," he blurted, "the children of the forest!"

Theon Greyjoy sniggered, and Maester Luwin said, "Bran, the children of the forest have been dead and gone for thousands of years. All that is left of them are the faces in the trees."

"Down here, might be that's true, Maester," Yoren said, "but up past the Wall, who's to say? Up there, a man can't always tell what's alive and what's dead."

That night, after the plates had been cleared, Robb carried Bran up to bed himself. Grey Wind led the way, and Summer came close behind. His brother was strong for his age, and Bran was as light as a bundle of rags, but the stairs were steep and dark, and Robb was breathing hard by the time they reached the top.

He put Bran into bed, covered him with blankets, and blew out the candle. For a time Robb sat beside him in the dark. Bran wanted to talk to him, but he did not know what to say. "We'll find a horse for you, I promise," Robb whispered at last.

 

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Edit:  The person who emerged from the underbrush was Dywen, he of the oaken teeth.  So the symbolism of the Green Man is very strong in this passage.

The wooden teeth motif is a metaphor for the demon tree, the weirwood, which can be used as a sharp weapon against others, but also takes its toll, gnawing on those who wield it, as I've elaborated above.

[ravenous reader]

8 minutes ago, LmL said:

HAH, I love it. Don't forget if his eyes looked like bloodstone - the real stuff - they be green with flecks of red, greenseer eyes. 

But yeah! Whitewashed by the Starry Wisdom Church who started R'hllorism as a giant pro-Azor Ahai PR campaign. Worked like a charm! We even kept the part in about murdering his wife, and people still went for it!!

Finally -- Praise be R'hllor! -- you 'put the lime and the coconut' and mixed it all together, got it straight, and understood the significance of the lime!

Yay!  

[LmL]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don't know if this helps or not but this quote:

seems a reference to two different things.  The lightning blasted chestnut tree is an important symbol in Charlotte Bronte's Jane Eyre.  My wife's a fan of Bronte, not me, but it's my understanding that it references the state of the marriage of the main character.

The wild white roses on the other hand, may have come from a legend about the War of the Roses bloodiest battle, the Battle of Towton.  The legend has it wild white roses (now called Towton roses) grew on the battlefield, where House York defeated House Lancaster.

Edit:  The person who emerged from the underbrush was Dywen, he of the oaken teeth.  So the symbolism of the Green Man is very strong in this passage.

Agree on Dywen - he can smell the wights and others coming too, very sensitive to the woods. 

As to the battle you reference, we know York = Stark, so the white rose marks a victory for House Stark, perhaps?  The lightning striking the tree... I mean its loaded. It's the fire of the gods, the weirwood, lightning connects to the others also... Starks are wrapped up in all of that for sure, but as to exactly how... 

The white roses growing over the wounded tree reminds me of the flowers growing over the tomb of Tristifer the Hammer of Justice. 

9 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

"Well," said Yoren, "maybe he will and maybe he won't. Good men have gone into those woods before, and never come out."

Ok, that's nice... "Garth, can you hear me in there?? Halllooo??"

[ravenous reader]

Just now, LmL said:

Ok, that's nice... "Garth, can you hear me in there?? Halllooo??"

LOL!

[LmL]

Is there anybody in there...

Just nod if you can hear me...

Is there anyone at home?

 

[Wrl6199]

2 minutes ago, LmL said:

Is there anybody in there...

Just nod if you can hear me...

Is there anyone at home?

 

Hello there i am here. But mostly just because i saw your post and figured i would reply so you didnt feel so lonely in this thread. Did it work? Im home.

[ravenous reader]

6 minutes ago, LmL said:

Is there anybody in there...

Just nod if you can hear me...

Is there anyone at home?

 

You are on a roll...You should post that on the poetry thread, lol!

[LmL]

11 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Hello there i am here. But mostly just because i saw your post and figured i would reply so you didnt feel so lonely in this thread. Did it work? Im home.

You're too kind... was just a Pink Floyd reference, however...

[Pain killer Jane]

16 minutes ago, LmL said:

Is there anybody in there...

Just nod if you can hear me...

Is there anyone at home?

 

Song that remind me of Ice and Fire

Hello

Lionel Richie

 

Lyrics

I've been alone with you inside my mind
And in my dreams I've kissed your lips a thousand times
I sometimes see you pass outside my door
Hello, is it me you're looking for?
I can see it in your eyes
I can see it in your smile
You're all I've ever wanted and my arms are open wide
Cause you know just what to say and you know just what to do
And I want to tell you so much, I love you

I long to see the sunlight in your hair
And tell you time and time again how much I care
Sometimes I feel my heart will overflow
Hello, I've just got to let you know
Cause I wonder where you are and I wonder what you do
Are you somewhere feeling lonely? Or is someone loving you?
Tell me how to win your heart, for I haven't got a clue
But let me start by saying I love you

Hello
Is it me you're looking for?
Cause I wonder where you are and I wonder what you do
Are you somewhere feeling lonely? Or is someone loving you?
Tell me how to win your heart, for I haven't got a clue
But let me start by saying I love you.

 

[LmL]

I AM ONLY COMING THROUGH IN WAVES (of blood and night upon some steely shore)

[Seams]

Quote

Hey

@Seams.  I was looking at the dictionary definition of ragged, and guess what -- 'ragged' is related specifically to fabric 'fraying', 'ripping' and 'tearing' and therefore to 'seams' and 'wellsprings' and, as we've recently elucidated, to 'hymens' and 'sewing' and 'sowing' and therefore '(re)births' (and in that context, it's significant that Asha's dagger nestling between her breasts is referred to as her 'suckling babe')!

Like Asha, you've made a nice catch! I've come to believe that Asha scene with the suckling babe is foreshadowing of Theon's castration, but also of the murder of Craster. Theon is eating fish stew from a trencher (a bowl made from a loaf of bread). First Asha catches an axe (her "husband") thrown across the room and she slams it down on Theon's dinner, splitting his trencher and splashing the chowder onto his fancy outfit. If all bread is part of the bread = pain pun, this seems to allude to a specific kind of pain in store for Theon. Her knife is a dirk and a guy named Dirk kills Craster, who has just received a lovely new axe from Lord Commander Mormont. What does it mean that Craster is killed by a "suckling babe"? Does Asha = Gilly? Does dagger = Gilly's baby?

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For example, when Will in the prologue climbs the sentinel with the dagger clenched between his teeth which initially saves his life, firstly because he can climb freely without having to hold it in his hand or by a handle, and secondly because it silences him and he can not call out, thereby saving himself by not alerting the Others to his presence (he loses his voice symbolically a number of times in the prologue, the interpretation of the symbolism of which frustrated

@evita mgfs and the rest of us, and still does).  ...

So -- I'd say daggers might be associated with losing ones voice or words -- but in the same breath acquiring a new language. 

This is very interesting in light of the Will = Shakespeare theory that you and Evita worked out in the Bran's Growing Powers thread. Maybe daggers aren't just tongues, but represent the written word. So we get one of the greatest writers putting his dagger where his tongue should be. This would also explain why the mute Wex Pyke uses his dagger to write his name when Lord Manderly introduces him to Davos.

I think this means we should also try to work out the symbolism of the Widow of the Waterfront, who has a dagger with runes on it. At one point, I thought she was like Littlefinger and the Kindly Man, a sort of creepy mentor for Tyrion as those characters are for Sansa and Arya. But I wonder whether she's more like Mother Mole or Nymeria - she puts Tyrion and Jeor Mormont and Penny on a doomed boat. (Or maybe she's like the Skipper from Gilligan's Island.) Getting back to your rag / tear discovery, she also had a tear tattoo from her slave days that was cut off of her face. What does it mean to lose one's tear?

[Seams]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

A Clash of Kings - Jon V

Jon slid his new dagger from its sheath and studied the flames as they played against the shiny black glass. He had fashioned the wooden hilt himself, and wound hempen twine around it to make a grip. Ugly, but it served. Dolorous Edd opined that glass knives were about as useful as nipples on a knight's breastplate, but Jon was not so certain. The dragonglass blade was sharper than steel, albeit far more brittle.

It must have been buried for a reason.

This also seems very significant to me, and relevant to the Asha "suckling babe" scene. Jon's ugly obsidian dagger is also put in the context of  breastfeeding - Dolorous Edd thinks it's pointless (hah!) but Jon disagrees. The excerpt also reminds me that Jon's dagger was buried. We have many swords and knives decorated with rubies on their hilts, pommels and scabbards, but this was the first knife that was buried, as far as I can recall. I think there is a pun on ruby and bury, with the seven rubies expected at the Quiet Isle juxtaposed with the gravedigger as a place where the wordplay comes together.

[Pain killer Jane]

51 minutes ago, Seams said:

This also seems very significant to me, and relevant to the Asha "suckling babe" scene. Jon's ugly obsidian dagger is also put in the context of  breastfeeding - Dolorous Edd thinks it's pointless (hah!) but Jon disagrees. The excerpt also reminds me that Jon's dagger was buried. We have many swords and knives decorated with rubies on their hilts, pommels and scabbards, but this was the first knife that was buried, as far as I can recall. I think there is a pun on ruby and bury, with the seven rubies expected at the Quiet Isle juxtaposed with the gravedigger as a place where the wordplay comes together.

Something that occurs to me about Jon's glass knife and the ruby/bury pun. The knife is Obsidian so it is frozen Fire and we have Thistle's wighted corpse with ten frozen knives of blood. A corpse that should be buried rose up and has ruby red knives on her hands.