Black Crow Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 9 hours ago, hiemal said: lol I blush to admit I hadn't even considered that interpretation of "breeding her own soldiers"... The problem, alas, is that there isn't even a hint of magic involved, so I fear its a boast of long term ambitions - mind you that does seem to be the one thing the Yunkai are good at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 6 hours ago, Black Crow said: The problem, alas, is that there isn't even a hint of magic involved, so I fear its a boast of long term ambitions - mind you that does seem to be the one thing the Yunkai are good at Oh, I don't think there's any magic involved- if the Yunkish had that kind of power they wouldn't have fallen to Dany and her Unsullied in the first place. Just a feeling that there's more going on with temporality in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Possible of course, but in all honesty I think its just GRRM being careless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 22 minutes ago, Black Crow said: Possible of course, but in all honesty I think its just GRRM being careless. I disagree. I think this is the inversion to the creation of white walkers. One is a deliberate non-magical process, which would suggest that the magical process may not be deliberate. If Craster always gave his infant sons to the woods, simply the return of magic may be all that is different with regards to creating white walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said: I disagree. I think this is the inversion to the creation of white walkers. One is a deliberate non-magical process, which would suggest that the magical process may not be deliberate. If Craster always gave his infant sons to the woods, simply the return of magic may be all that is different with regards to creating white walkers. Whatever the end result, Craster wasn't just giving his sons to the wood as and when another bundle of joy arrived. They were being given on demand as and when the cold gods came knocking in the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 1 minute ago, Black Crow said: Whatever the end result, Craster wasn't just giving his sons to the wood as and when another bundle of joy arrived. They were being given on demand as and when the cold gods came knocking in the night. This could be a recent occurrence. We really don't have enough information to know for sure, but my opinions are based upon my research of the inversions and it seems to me that if the Yunkai were deliberately breeding soldiers, this is evidence that the recent reintroduction of white walkers are not deliberate. This would also be consistent with the annuls. If the very old annuls mentioned white walkers it's because magic was still in the world during that time, furthermore if anyone did sacrifice a child north of the Wall a white walker was produced. This is also consistent with the story of the Nights King. Supposedly the Wall was erected when he was sacrificing to the Others, so the mere existence of the Wall is not evidence that the white walkers were eliminated...they were only contained. It wasn't until the Andals arrived that magic began to wane and a large part of that was due to the efforts of the Citadel and it's maesters. Since the Andals have began their campaign against magic, the white walkers slowly went away, but now that magic is back, so are they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said: It wasn't until the Andals arrived that magic began to wane and a large part of that was due to the efforts of the Citadel and it's maesters. Since the Andals have began their campaign against magic, the white walkers slowly went away, but now that magic is back, so are they. That once again may be the old come with the cold/bring the cold question. There's no arguing with the fact the Andals were able to defeat the tree-huggers and their allies in pretty short order, but was that down to the Andals overcoming the magic, or was it because the magic was already failing and no longer the power it had been when fighting the First Men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 12 minutes ago, Black Crow said: That once again may be the old come with the cold/bring the cold question. There's no arguing with the fact the Andals were able to defeat the tree-huggers and their allies in pretty short order, but was that down to the Andals overcoming the magic, or was it because the magic was already failing and no longer the power it had been when fighting the First Men. The white walkers do bring the cold with them and that is what raises wights, but Westeros has had many cycles of spring, summer, fall, and winter...extended periods that last years yes, but there are winter cycles. Many of the characters can recall how many winters or summers they have seen in their own lifetimes, so we should be able to conclude that it's more than just winter that brings white walkers. If they appeared every winter they wouldn't be sneered at as fables...everyone would know they were real. I think there is something to the Andals taking over the Wall and it's Night Watch that has helped keep sacrificing to a minimum, but it takes every effort to suppress magic including placing maesters in every great house, eradicating knowledge by hiding, suppressing, or destroying records, and by killing direwolves, dragons, and weirwood trees. It's blood sacrifice that is needed to feed and create magic, but even that seems to have kept white walkers suppressed. Either the wildlings forgot how to do it properly, or it was warded somehow. The iron swords in the Winterfell crypts certainly must be a factor, and maybe there are other wards that we either don't know about or are over-looking. Part of my inversion theory is based on the assumption that a ward has been removed. It very well may be that having no Stark in Winterfell is one such ward, but not the only one. The Black Gate is warded...what else is or was warded? Damphair has a disturbing memory of Euron and a squeaky iron hinge. I realize that many readers think this is about child abuse, but what if it's more than that? It could be that the squeaky iron hinge is merely an inversion to something Bloodraven did. Long story short, it's the recent release of magic that is making all the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 I am convinced creating a WW requires a human sacrifice, but it is a complicated ritual, not just stabbing your friend when he happens to be north of the wall. I also believe we have more human sacrifice north of the wall than just the creation of WWs. The heart tree of Whitetree and Jojen paste being other possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Winter and Summer are not on a yearly cycle. Something is out of balance, and GRRM has said it will be explained at the end of the series. Do we think the seasons are arbitrary? Or are they tied to something? Magic also seems to be waxing and waning and possibly tied to something. The year of the false spring, with the tournament at Harrenhal seems to be a clue. Seasons were tilting towards Summer, and something happened to set them back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 If the decline of magic is connected to the Andals and the Andals are credited with bringing iron weapons, maybe it's the use of iron as wards is the most effective tool for suppressing magic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 9 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: If the decline of magic is connected to the Andals and the Andals are credited with bringing iron weapons, maybe it's the use of iron as wards is the most effective tool for suppressing magic? Not so sure; the First Men arrived with bronze weapons but there's no reason to suppose that they didn't have iron by the time the Andals arrived - I thought their speciality was steel - which again brings us back to my earlier question as to whether there was something special about the Andals [the Old Gods and the New business?] which overcame the magic of the tree-huggers, or whether a decline in magic opened a window of opportunity for the Andals? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 15 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: If the decline of magic is connected to the Andals and the Andals are credited with bringing iron weapons, maybe it's the use of iron as wards is the most effective tool for suppressing magic? I don't see that. The Valyrians beat the Andals using magic, and we don't see a decline in magic until 1000 years or so after the Andals arrived. Does anyone know if we have a rise in magic before Dany hatches the dragons? We see the Others in the prologue of the first book, but is this the first thing chronologically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 What is the timing of Mance digging up graves to find The Horn of Winter? Could that have led to the Others and magic coming back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Brad Stark said: I don't see that. The Valyrians beat the Andals using magic, and we don't see a decline in magic until 1000 years or so after the Andals arrived. Does anyone know if we have a rise in magic before Dany hatches the dragons? We see the Others in the prologue of the first book, but is this the first thing chronologically? Valyrians conquered Andals because they had lots of dragons, and even if dragonsteel proves to be Valyrian steel, you have to be able to get close enough to a dragon to slay one. It is a suspected that the Andals had a hand in the decline of dragons in Westeros, but having only one dragonlord family is much different than having several in Valyria. The decline of magic was a slow withdrawl, but like I had suggested it was a series of factors or efforts by the maesters of the Andals. By inserting maesters in every great house they would be training the household children and making converts, having access to family documents and perhaps even destroying them. They know alot more about magic than they let on and they spread propaganda by dismissing the old stories as fables causing doubts to creep in. It may have taken a long time, but they definitely had something to do with magic's decline. The very first chapter of GoT details the encounter between Waymar Royce and a group of Others, so our story began with their reappearance. This prologue occurred in 297 and possibly the first few Dany chapters as well, but it's not until 299 that Dany's eggs hatched, so white walkers arrived before dragons by nearly two years. So something happened in early 297 that resulted in white walkers and the prime suspect, in my eyes, is Bloodraven. 3 hours ago, Brad Stark said: What is the timing of Mance digging up graves to find The Horn of Winter? Could that have led to the Others and magic coming back? Mance was certainly organizing and defeating tribal leaders to gather people to him to become King Beyond the Wall, and he was already king in 297, but we don't know when he began his gravedigging. Ygritte is the one that reported this activity to Jon, but she doesn't say when it occurred. But logical reasoning would indicate that the gravedigging occurred after he became king. Mance could have visited Craster and discovered he was sacrificing his sons, but one thing we do know is that it was already well known to Benjen and LC Mormont that Craster gave his sons to the wood. What we do know is that there are three main elements needed to create white walkers: winter, blood sacrifice, and magic. If one of the three are missing there are no walkers. That is why I feel we can say with certainty that there were no walkers until the return of magic and it didn't matter if Craster had been sacrificing for years before 297. If magic was still contained there were no white walkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 18 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: If the decline of magic is connected to the Andals and the Andals are credited with bringing iron weapons, maybe it's the use of iron as wards is the most effective tool for suppressing magic? The Andals might have put the nail in the coffin for the magic of the Old Gods south of the Wall, but there seems to be an increasing context that suggests that the decline began before their arrival--eg. the CotF already being difficult to find by the time of the LN, and certain tales that suggest the CotF had already been cleared out of the Riverlands before the coming of the Andals. More speculatively, although the Old Gods were never abandoned in the North, it does seem as though the Kings in the North made a purposeful break with their connection to magic, unlike the Reeds, who have endeavored to retain their lore. I personally suspect that the decline of magic began as far back as the era of Brandon the Breaker. 3 hours ago, Brad Stark said: What is the timing of Mance digging up graves to find The Horn of Winter? Could that have led to the Others and magic coming back? We don't know the timing, but I've proposed a theory here in the past that the Night's King and his companions were bound and buried alive at the Frostfangs, something that was intended as a particularly brutal punishment for creatures that cannot die a natural death. The obvious problem with that interpretation is that, presently, Mance is looking for the Horn of Winter to bypass the Wall, and he's looking to bypass the Wall to flee the Others, all of which suggests he would have begun looking for the Horn after the Others were on the rise; furthermore, his large scale excavation of the Frostfangs (the one we see in ASOS) would almost certainly be recent. That said, I don't think it's an impossible scenario, if we assume that the search for the Horn originally began as a plan to destroy the Wall on behalf of the Free Folk, and it's only after Mance and his closest followers released something they shouldn't have that he had to try to clean up his own mess--unite the Free Folk, combat the Others, and organize a more thorough and desperate search for the Horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 15 minutes ago, Matthew. said: The Andals might have put the nail in the coffin for the magic of the Old Gods south of the Wall, but there seems to be an increasing context that suggests that the decline began before their arrival--eg. the CotF already being difficult to find by the time of the LN, and certain tales that suggest the CotF had already been cleared out of the Riverlands before the coming of the Andals. IMO the Children were hard to find, because they were hiding from the First Men, and then took advantage of winter to create the white walkers to defeat the First Men. Then the tale says the Children and First Men worked together to defeat the Others and build the Wall, but there is a disconnect because the Children also abandoned their southern homes and fled beyond the Wall. Why do that if you're allies? Or did they flee after the Andals came? If that's the case, were they no longer allies of the northern First Man clans? There's important information missing and I think this may be due to maesters taking over the storytelling and omitting certain facts in order to hide something. They want to deny that magic existed or if it ever did it was a long, long, time ago. But again, I suspect iron and warding needs to be inserted here and if magic was warded from the realm south of the Wall the Children had no real defenses left at their disposal and feared for their safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said: What we do know is that there are three main elements needed to create white walkers: winter, blood sacrifice, and magic. If one of the three are missing there are no walkers. That is why I feel we can say with certainty that there were no walkers until the return of magic and it didn't matter if Craster had been sacrificing for years before 297. If magic was still contained there were no white walkers. I don't think we know what is or isn't needed to make a White Walker. I agree Craster was sacrificing long before 297. But I don’t think he started sacrificing for no reason for 20 years and suddenly started making WWs. I also think the residents of White tree were sacrificed, including the women, possibly by Craster, but I don’t think they made WWs. We don't have any idea if there were WWs around in 296 or 277 or when, Craster could have been creating them all along. I wonder how much Craster and Night's Watch know about each other. The Night's Watch seems to know a lot about Craster but I can't believe they'd let him make a WW army. And I wonder if Craster lied about Benjen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 4 hours ago, Brad Stark said: What is the timing of Mance digging up graves to find The Horn of Winter? Could that have led to the Others and magic coming back? No, although the business of letting shades [ghosts presumably] into the world is often invoked, the story is quite clear that Mance rallied the free folk behind him in response to the growing threat from the blue-eyed lot and then, having gathered them together set them to digging. Now none of that is to dismiss the questions as to who Mance really is and why he really wants to find the horn - his interest in the Winterfell crypts suggests he's still looking for it despite it no longer being needed to get to the warm side of the Wall - and nor is it to eliminate the possibility that Mance might be responsible for stirring up Craster's boys in the first place. All we know is there's a mystery, but it wasn't the digging which started this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 15, 2017 Author Share Posted February 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said: Valyrians conquered Andals because they had lots of dragons, and even if dragonsteel proves to be Valyrian steel, you have to be able to get close enough to a dragon to slay one. It is a suspected that the Andals had a hand in the decline of dragons in Westeros, but having only one dragonlord family is much different than having several in Valyria. Ah not quite. GRRM did confirm a contextual link between the rise of Valyria and the arrival of the Andals, but not a direct contact. It was the classic migration pattern of several peoples on the move, ripples as one displaced the other. As to the decline of dragons, that is attributed rightly or wrongly to the maesters of the citadel - a First men foundation if no longer confined to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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