Maggy the Frog: The Red Priestess & Cersei: The Unreliable Narrator

[Lady Blizzardborn]

22 minutes ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

@Lady Blizzardborn Melony had changed her name some time after becoming a slave, her name might have even been forced on her due to being a slave.  The long and difficult to pronounce name the smallfolk had trouble with is 'Melisandre'. 

So Mel had been supporting Stannis during her time in the Westerlands.  Take a look at the Lannister who had raised the Spicers to Lords, Tytos Lannister.  He became lord of Casterly Rock when his father, Gorold the Golden, died of a "bad bladder" at the age of 42.  Tytos Lannister almost led his house into ruin according to TWOIA.  The personality of Tytos was so genial, laid back and so easily manipulated, well, it made it into the history books (TWOIAF).  He did some weird things like make a wet nurse his girlfriend and later he was besotted by a candlemaker's daughter.  It was he who made the very questionable betrothal of his daughter Genna Lannister who was only seven at the time to a son of House Frey.who wasn't even an heir (only a second son).  It was so questionable 10 year old Tywin famously spoke out against it.  This very questionable marriage had tied House Frey to House Lannister. It was Maggy's grand-daughter (Sybell Spicer) who betrayed House Stark.  Sybell Spicer coincidentally married into House Westerling in a similar fashion to how Jeyne married into House Stark (ASOS, Tyrion III). Maggie also has a hand at seeding the paranoia of Cersei which is one of Cersei's greatest weaknesses.

So let's just say for an instant Melisandre is Maggy.  Mel already knew Joffrey was going to die.  Now let's also assume she also knew about the death of Robb Stark, but disn't have knowledge of Balon Greyjoy's fate.  Look at the leech scene (which is a farse) with new eyes:

She needed to get the ball rolling and wake the dragons from stone because although she hasn't seen Balon's death she knows that waking the stone dragon with King's blood will take the prophesy closer to completion and Balon will die inevitably because she believes once the dragons wake from stone, nothing will be able to stand before him.

So the question about why didn't Maggy glamour herself when she was in the westerlands.  My answer is this, Maggy didn't have to glamour herself.  She was already young and beautiful when she married the Spicer.  She had no need for glamours.  People would grow suspicious if you saw a woman for thirty or forty years and she never aged.  I am sure she could make herself prettier, but she had no need.  She is not a vain person, like Cersei.  Melisanre's appearance is a tool in present time. 

 

Good points. Thank you for answering my questions.

[Seams]

On 2/11/2017 at 0:49 AM, Crowfood's daughter said:

Appearance and Characteristics

Within the storyline despite such a large variety of characters, there are only two women who are described as having deep voices, Maggy the Frog and Melisandre.  In fact, if you take a look at the comparison you will see the voice descriptions are very similar:

Mel

“Maester,” said Lady Melisandre, her deep voice flavored with the music of the Jade Sea. “You ought take more care.” As ever, she wore red head to heel, a long loose gown of flowing silk as bright as fire,

 Maggy

“Your Grace?” said a voice behind her. “Do I intrude?” It was a woman’s voice, flavored with the accents of the east. For an instant she feared that Maggy the Frog was speaking to her from the grave.

Just tell us our futures, then we’ll go.” “Some are here who have no futures,” Maggy muttered in her terrible deep voice. She pulled her robe about her shoulders and beckoned the girls closer.

I think the second excerpt provides pretty strong reason to examine a third woman as part of this comparison: Taena of Myr, Lady Merryweather. If Cersei believes she is hearing Maggy's voice from beyond the grave, that's pretty strong evidence that Taena's voice is similar to Maggy's. As you point out, Taena's voice is "flavored" like those of the east - a "spice merchant" allusion.

Just before Taena approaches her and speaks, Cersei has been hiding to have a good cry because she momentarily thought Tommen was choking. Having found a possible wordplay link between "tears" (as in crying) and "tears" (as in ripped fabric), I always assume that a barrier is torn when someone is crying - often a barrier between life/death or magic/non-magic. In this case, I think Cersei is symbolically letting "Maggy" back into her world - "from the grave." (Maybe Myrish lace is also part of this metaphor - lace is a fabric with holes in it. A lot of these magic people seem to have a connection to Myr.)

I don't think this possible third player contradicts the good evidence you have laid out for a Melisandre / Maggy connection. I just don't think they are both (or all three) literally the same person. In other recent threads, there are marvelous connections between characters as diverse as Dolorous Edd and Rattleshirt, who may both represent aspects of Ned Stark. There are longstanding theories that Mance Rayder is Rhaegar in disguise and the High Sparrow is Balon Greyjoy. I put forth a thread once that Patchface and Robert Baratheon are a deliberate pair. I suspect most of these similar characters are not literally the same person in disguise, but are echoes or rebirths or returning archetypes or variations on a theme.

But I could be wrong and the secret twin or glamoured Maggy will prove to be true. There were a lot of secret identities revealed in the third Dunk & Egg story, and GRRM may have numerous characters hidden in similar mummer's costumes in the ASOIAF books.

By the way - I wonder whether Melisandre's "Melony" origin connects to Dany's search for the lemon tree and Sansa's love of lemon tarts? Sansa is also hit over the head with a melon, and Tyrion's "sister," Penny, loses her melon head in the dwarf jousting act at Joffrey's wedding feast. (Or it may be Groat, Tyrion's doppelganger, who loses his head - I think GRRM is deliberately vague about which dwarf is riding which animal at that point in the act.)

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

I believe Maggy died as Cersei mentions and no longer needs blood in the living sorceress sense.  The ruby is now like an adjunct  Take a look at this--->  https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1b56ua/spoilers_alla_theory_on_melisandre/

I actually think that Melisandre is not fully transformed in the way that Beric and perhaps Moqorro have been transformed.  Melisandre doesn't need to eat or sleep; but she does feel tired, can consume food and drinks fluids to soothe a parched throat.  I'm not sure about Thoros.  It may be that a shadowbinder has to be living in some sense for that life force trick to work.  

Edit:  Also I wonder if only the women servants of R'hllor can be shadowbinders.  Or that women are required to birth the shadow, if you consider what Qyburn has been up to with Gregor, and the women that Cersei has disappeared into the dungeons.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

22 minutes ago, Seams said:

I think the second excerpt provides pretty strong reason to examine a third woman as part of this comparison: Taena of Myr, Lady Merryweather. If Cersei believes she is hearing Maggy's voice from beyond the grave, that's pretty strong evidence that Taena's voice is similar to Maggy's. As you point out, Taena's voice is "flavored" like those of the east - a "spice merchant" allusion.

Just before Taena approaches her and speaks, Cersei has been hiding to have a good cry because she momentarily thought Tommen was choking. Having found a possible wordplay link between "tears" (as in crying) and "tears" (as in ripped fabric), I always assume that a barrier is torn when someone is crying - often a barrier between life/death or magic/non-magic. In this case, I think Cersei is symbolically letting "Maggy" back into her world - "from the grave." (Maybe Myrish lace is also part of this metaphor - lace is a fabric with holes in it. A lot of these magic people seem to have a connection to Myr.)

I don't think this possible third player contradicts the good evidence you have laid out for a Melisandre / Maggy connection. I just don't think they are both (or all three) literally the same person. In other recent threads, there are marvelous connections between characters as diverse as Dolorous Edd and Rattleshirt, who may both represent aspects of Ned Stark. There are longstanding theories that Mance Rayder is Rhaegar in disguise and the High Sparrow is Balon Greyjoy. I put forth a thread once that Patchface and Robert Baratheon are a deliberate pair. I suspect most of these similar characters are not literally the same person in disguise, but are echoes or rebirths or returning archetypes or variations on a theme.

But I could be wrong and the secret twin or glamoured Maggy will prove to be true. There were a lot of secret identities revealed in the third Dunk & Egg story, and GRRM may have numerous characters hidden in similar mummer's costumes in the ASOIAF books.

By the way - I wonder whether Melisandre's "Melony" origin connects to Dany's search for the lemon tree and Sansa's love of lemon tarts? Sansa is also hit over the head with a melon, and Tyrion's "sister," Penny, loses her melon head in the dwarf jousting act at Joffrey's wedding feast. (Or it may be Groat, Tyrion's doppelganger, who loses his head - I think GRRM is deliberately vague about which dwarf is riding which animal at that point in the act.)

Good thoughts Seams.  I had thought on the aspect of Taena being Myrish when I wrote the OP.  The Myrish accent is supposed to be sultry. What GRRM is doing when he uses Taena is getting a seductress from the east with a sultry voice and somehow comparing it to a woman who was "croaking" to Cersei.  Basically this is the illusion of Maggy being seductive which is hard to do.  I don't think this causes us to assume there is a connection to Myr as the voice is truly a minor part.. 

I also believe Taena is connected to Illyrio and Illyrio is connected to a number of people who take me down a rabbit hole that leads to the seductress herself, Serenei of Lys. 

The melon thing is very cool by the way.

[GloubieBoulga]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I suspect most of these similar characters are not literally the same person in disguise, but are echoes or rebirths or returning archetypes or variations on a theme.

Indeed, like Rorge + Biter = Robert + Ned (and Biter is killed by a Baratheon bastard, with a spear/sword/antler throw his throat)

 

@Crowfood's daughter

That's also why I don't buy a same identity between Maggy and Melisandre. I can just see that they use same bloodmagic. 

But you pointed a very interesting thing :

Quote

a sudden memory had stopped her heart; a drop of red blood hissing in a candle flame, a croaking voice that spoke of crowns and shrouds, of death at the hands of the valonqar. Cersei VI, AFFC

and I wonder if GRRM didn't resume here all the "story" = a "valonqar" who kills his/her king/kin, a crown which pass to other head, a crow telling somethings (lies ?) (croak is also for crows and raven, or human in particular situation - with the voice altered - not only for frog^^), and of course, the blood. The phrasis is here very ambiguous, as if Cersei had memories which didn't really concerned herself, but in some way could be the memories of others. 

What is immediatly following the quote seems significant for me : 

Quote

Outside the litter, Ser Osmund was shouting something, and someone was shouting back. The litter jerked to a halt. "Are you all dead?" roared Kettleblack. "Get out of the bloody way!"

It seems that Cersei never quit the bloody way, but in the contrary is totally driving on it. 

[ravenous reader]

Could there be a pun on 'nutmeg' with 'nutty Meg' or 'Meggy the nut(ter)'?!

e.g. Jon notes the spices in Melisandre's voice, including 'nutmeg, cloves and anise'...also a connection to the 'Spicers'...

the latter (anise) a key 'ingredient' (symbolically-speaking) of the shade of the evening!

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon III

His words fell on deaf ears. Stannis had remained unmoved. The law was plain; a deserter's life was forfeit.

Beneath the weeping Wall, Lady Melisandre raised her pale white hands. "We all must choose," she proclaimed. "Man or woman, young or old, lord or peasant, our choices are the same." Her voice made Jon Snow think of anise and nutmeg and cloves. She stood at the king's side on a wooden scaffold raised above the pit. "We choose light or we choose darkness. We choose good or we choose evil. We choose the true god or the false."

 

[Crowfood's Daughter]

8 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Could there be a pun on 'nutmeg' with 'nutty Meg' or 'Meggy the nut(ter)'?!

e.g. Jon notes the spices in Melisandre's voice, including 'nutmeg, cloves and anise'...also a connection to the 'Spicers'...

the latter (anise) a key ingredient of the shade of the evening!

 

So anise is not actually used in Shade of the Evening.  This was how it is described as tasting.  Basically Shade of the Evening gives the taster a very bitter taste then melts into a bunch of different flavors which is a little different for depending on the drinker.  Take a look at the forsaken chapter in TWOW and also how Weirwood paste taste is described.  Basically Shade of the Evening is the Essosi equivalent to Weirwood paste, with the trees being like some sort of corrupt version on the Essosi side of the world.  The Shade of the Evening tree is like an inverse representation and Corlys Velaryon found "carved trees" in the woods where the Ivefrequon (sp?) lived.

weirwood paste

Quote

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him. The empty bowl slipped from his fingers and clattered on the cavern floor. “I don’t feel any different. What happens next?”

Shade of the Evening: Danny perspective

Quote

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother’s milk and Drogo’s seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them … and then the glass was empty.

Forsaken chapter

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

“Drink with me. Your king commands it.”
Euron grabbed a handful of the priest’s tangled black hair, pulled his head back, and lifted the
wine cup to his lips. But what flowed into his mouth was not wine. It was thick and viscous, with
a taste that seemed to change with every swallow. Now bitter, now sour, now sweet.  When
Aeron tried to spit it out, his brother tightened his grip and forced more down his throat. “That’s
it, priest. Gulp it down. The wine of the warlocks, sweeter than your seawater, with more
truth in it than all the gods of earth.”

 

 

So you are going to find a lot of spice references around and the connections will start flowing.  Just simmer on this for awhile.  All of the spices Godric Borrell had taken off the sloe-eyed maid were also found in Maggy's tent.  My best guess is the sloe-eyed maid didn't actually crash (it was never stated the ship had crashed) and the spices were a bribe.

I have a feeling this guy is doing just as much as any character when it comes to the plot:

Quote

Magister Illyrio was a dealer in spices, gemstones, dragonbone, and other, less savory things.