How Rhaenyra's children could of been Laenor's.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That makes little sense because Daenerys and all of Daeron II's descendants had no female line Targaryen ancestors.

If the dragon-bonding genes were only passed down through the female line Dany shouldn't have been able to bond with and mount Drogon.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. Dragon-riding genes are X chromosome-linked, not female-linked. Females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. When babies are made (spoilers ) the mother passes on one of her two X chromosomes, and the father passes on either his X or his Y chromosome (this determines gender).

So if you have a male dragon-rider, he will pass on his dragon-X gene to any daughters he has (but not his sons). A female dragon-rider with one dragon-X chromosome and one regular X chromosome has a 50% chance to pass the dragon-X gene to any children. And a female dragon-rider with two dragon-X chromosomes, like Rhaenyra, has 100% chance to pass on a dragon-X gene. So Dany doesn't need to descend from a female line. She just needs the right X chromosome(s).

On a side note, I think it is possible Tyrion may be the only person ever with 3 "dragon-X" genes. How? First off, I think that all telepathy powers like dragon-riding/hatching, skinchanging, and face-changing are X-chromosome linked genes, and may be interchangeable. It may have been implied in The Sworn Sword that Rohanne Webber had a special gene, and she could have passed that gene down to Tyrion's mother through Jason Lannister. Hypothetically, if Tyrion's mismatched eyes are due to him being a chimera, it's possible he could be the combination of the son of Tywin and the daughter of the Mad King, taking two dragon-X chromosomes from Joanna and one from Aerys.

What will Tyrion do with his superpowers? I have no idea. And I give it about a 3% chance of being true lol  

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

We don't know every single ancestor that Laenor had. And Orys Baratheon was most markedly lacking in Valyrian looks, so far as we know. 

Correct. Orys Baratheon looked like:

• When they came ashore at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush to begin their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms, with them came a black-eyed, black-haired bastard named Orys Baratheon.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

5 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Correct. Orys Baratheon looked as what we might call "typically Baratheon."

• When they came ashore at the mouth of the Blackwater Rush to begin their conquest of the Seven Kingdoms, with them came a black-eyed, black-haired bastard named Orys Baratheon.

Well typically Baratheon is actually more typically Durrandon as they have the black hair but also the Durrandon blue eyes.

[The Fattest Leech]

Just now, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Well typically Baratheon is actually more typically Durrandon as they have the black hair but also the Durrandon blue eyes.

Duh! The blue eyes slipped my mind for a minute. Thanks.

[Lord Varys]

46 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. Dragon-riding genes are X chromosome-linked, not female-linked. Females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. When babies are made (spoilers ) the mother passes on one of her two X chromosomes, and the father passes on either his X or his Y chromosome (this determines gender).

I know how genetics work (basically, at least), however we have four women between Rhaenyra and Shaera Targaryen who possibly did not carry any dragonrider gene simply because they may have no dragonlord descendants. Those are Larra Rogare (who may only have the Valyrian looks but no dragonlords blood - unlikely, but possible), Mariah Martell, Dyanna Dayne, and Betha Blackwood. We can reasonably argue that Dyanna may have had a drop of Targaryen blood (perhaps through one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls) but in Mariah's and Betha's case we can safely rule that out.

Not to mention that George says he doesn't understand or cares about genetics, making such an explanation very unlikely.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

55 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. Dragon-riding genes are X chromosome-linked, not female-linked. Females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome. When babies are made (spoilers ) the mother passes on one of her two X chromosomes, and the father passes on either his X or his Y chromosome (this determines gender).

So if you have a male dragon-rider, he will pass on his dragon-X gene to any daughters he has (but not his sons). A female dragon-rider with one dragon-X chromosome and one regular X chromosome has a 50% chance to pass the dragon-X gene to any children. And a female dragon-rider with two dragon-X chromosomes, like Rhaenyra, has 100% chance to pass on a dragon-X gene. So Dany doesn't need to descend from a female line. She just needs the right X chromosome(s).

On a side note, I think it is possible Tyrion may be the only person ever with 3 "dragon-X" genes. How? First off, I think that all telepathy powers like dragon-riding/hatching, skinchanging, and face-changing are X-chromosome linked genes, and may be interchangeable. It may have been implied in The Sworn Sword that Rohanne Webber had a special gene, and she could have passed that gene down to Tyrion's mother through Jason Lannister. Hypothetically, if Tyrion's mismatched eyes are due to him being a chimera, it's possible he could be the combination of the son of Tywin and the daughter of the Mad King, taking two dragon-X chromosomes from Joanna and one from Aerys.

What will Tyrion do with his superpowers? I have no idea. And I give it about a 3% chance of being true lol  

I just read a comment on another thread that made me think of this theory. If somewhere in your 3% chance of it being true, then that could be why Brown Ben Plumm may be a dragon, as in Targ blood descendant somehow, but he just does not have the correct set of gene splicing (a GRRM fav topic), and he may die trying to mount a dragon instead.

Maybe.

[maudisdottir]

10 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Personally (and I know most people will think this is crackpot), I think the entire point of Rhaenyra's children being bastards is to provide us with a giant clue that dragon-riding/hatching genes are X chromosome-linked, meaning (among other things) they are not passed from fathers to sons.

First off, the children are clearly not Laenor's. I think we can be as sure of that as we are of just about anything in asoiaf, since they don't look like Laenor or Rhaenyra. And then we have this quote from The Rogue Prince:

Whatever the truth of these allegations, there was never any doubt that King Viserys still meant for his daughter to follow him upon the Iron Throne, and her sons to follow her in turn. By royal decree, each of the Velaryon boys was presented with a dragon’s egg whilst in the cradle. Those who doubted the paternity of Rhaenyra’s sons whispered that the eggs would never hatch, but the birth in turn of three young dragons gave the lie to their words. The hatchlings were named Vermax, Arrax, and Tyraxes.

So Archmaester Gyldayn states that the hatching of the dragons proved that Laenor was the father. I assume 99% of readers disagree with Gyldayn. Obviously having a Targaryen mother would be sufficient. Genes, unlike patriarchal Westeros, aren't sexist.

But that's when I would say, WAIT A SECOND! Some genes are sexist. We have X chromosomes and Y chromosomes, and certain genes are chromosome specific. For example, hemophelia and Barth syndrome (Septon Barth anyone?) are both X chromosome-linked genetic disorders. So long story short, if PJ is right and Rhaenyra has dragon-riding genes in both her X chromosomes, she would pass the genes along to all of her sons, and the identity of their father is ironically irrelevant.

But how did Alicent Hightower's children ride dragons? She had no Targaryen blood IIRC but her children rode dragons.

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But how did Alicent Hightower's children ride dragons? She had no Targaryen blood IIRC but her children rode dragons.

Indeed, and even if Alicent Hightower had a Targaryen ancestor somewhere down the line she would be descended from her through her father Otto and his father, presumably a previous Lord of Oldtown.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I know how genetics work (basically, at least), however we have four women between Rhaenyra and Shaera Targaryen who possibly did not carry any dragonrider gene simply because they may have no dragonlord descendants. Those are Larra Rogare (who may only have the Valyrian looks but no dragonlords blood - unlikely, but possible), Mariah Martell, Dyanna Dayne, and Betha Blackwood. We can reasonably argue that Dyanna may have had a drop of Targaryen blood (perhaps through one of the Targaryen-Hightower girls) but in Mariah's and Betha's case we can safely rule that out.

Not to mention that George says he doesn't understand or cares about genetics, making such an explanation very unlikely.

Yes, Dany's genes would have to either come from Dyanna or Betha. Like I said, I think skinchanging and dragon-riding genes may be generic and effectively interchangeable. The Daynes appear to have Valyrian features even though they are first men. I'm personally betting they are descended from the rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn and came to Westeros on dragonback. So their may be super old dragon genes circulating among Dornish nobility. And the Blackwood genes are suspicious with their sigil, their giant dead weirwood, and the powers of BR.

George doesn't care about genetics? OK... I would like to point out that the entire plot of AGOT comes down to Ned figuring out Joffrey is a bastard based on his hair color. That's genetics, simple as it may be. I'm sure George doesn't understand or care about the complexities of real-world genetics, but that doesn't mean he can't use sci-fi style genetics like he has in a bunch of his other stories. It's totally in his wheelhouse as an author, and therefore, quite likely.

ETA: And yes, Alicent would also have to have a dragon gene. There is a small amount of evidence the Hightowers could have special genes in their family. Mace Tyrell's wife is described as silver-haired even though she isn't old (obviously not impossible to be young with grey hair, but still a potential clue), Jorah claims that Lynesse looks like Dany, and we know of at least one Hightower, the Mad Maid Malora, who has prophetic dreams. I don't want to hijack the thread into defending a PJ theory, but he explains most of these things. Feel free to watch it.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Dragon-riding genes are X chromosome-linked, not female-linked. Females have two X chromosomes, and males have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome.

How nice to have an expert of dragon genetic here! Are you also expert for other imaginary creatures?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How nice to have an expert of dragon genetic here! Are you also expert for other fantasy creatures?

Yep, I sure am.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yep, I sure am.

Cool. I always wondered about the Draenei. Or about how ASOIAF dragons are not really dragons. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Cool. I always wondered about the Draenei. Or about how ASOIAF dragons are not really dragons. 

...they are dragons.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

4 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

...they are dragons.

They are really wyverns. Dragons or at least european dragons have 4 legs, asoiaf's wyverns have 2 legs.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Yes, Dany's genes would have to either come from Dyanna or Betha. Like I said, I think skinchanging and dragon-riding genes may be generic and effectively interchangeable. The Daynes appear to have Valyrian features even though they are first men.

Now, are they? That's the question there. We have no idea whether the ancient Daynes had Valyrian-like features or not.

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'm personally betting they are descended from the rulers of the Great Empire of the Dawn and came to Westeros on dragonback.

Nothing indicates the ancient Yi Tish were dragonriders. Perhaps there were dragonriders in Asshai, once. But why should they have gone to Westeros instead of, say, the Lands of the Long Summer? And later to go to Westeros from there (assuming the people in Westeros didn't figure out on their own to bond with a dragon and use it against the Others during the Long Night)?

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So their may be super old dragon genes circulating among Dornish nobility. And the Blackwood genes are suspicious with their sigil, their giant dead weirwood, and the powers of BR.

Skinchanging is not dragonriding. And the Valyrian incest custom makes it pretty clear that 'super old dragon genes' would not survive for long. Unless you assume the Daynes married their own sisters for as long as the Targaryens it is very unlikely that their looks (and the powers that might go with them) were preserved for as long as they would if they always had them.

Keep in mind that only one Dayne has Valyrian-like features. Ashara had dark hair and Edric Dayne's hair isn't silver-golden. Only Darkstar basically look Valyrian.

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

George doesn't care about genetics? OK... I would like to point out that the entire plot of AGOT comes down to Ned figuring out Joffrey is a bastard based on his hair color. That's genetics, simple as it may be. I'm sure George doesn't understand or care about the complexities of real-world genetics, but that doesn't mean he can't use sci-fi style genetics like he has in a bunch of his other stories. It's totally in his wheelhouse as an author, and therefore, quite likely.

George doesn't care about genetics. Meaning that there is no thought-out system behind all that. Magical talents and looks are inherited, sure, but apparently not in a systematic so that we can recognize a clear pattern the author has put there.

10 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

ETA: And yes, Alicent would also have to have a dragon gene. There is a small amount of evidence the Hightowers could have special genes in their family. Mace Tyrell's wife is described as silver-haired even though she isn't old (obviously not impossible to be young with grey hair, but still a potential clue), Jorah claims that Lynesse looks like Dany, and we know of at least one Hightower, the Mad Maid Malora, who has prophetic dreams.

We know that Lady Rhaena Targaryen married Garmund Hightower. The Hightowers in the series might all be descended from them. In fact, their eldest daughter could even have ruled the city as Lady of Oldtown (and if not, one of those five girls could have married their lordly Hightower cousin).

Alicent was born too early to have a drop of Targaryen blood. If she had had Targaryen ancestors it would have come up when her marriage to Viserys I was discussed.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

They are really wyverns. Dragons or at least european dragons have 4 legs, asoiaf's wyverns have 2 legs.

I am well aware. But GRRM put wyverns in asoiaf too, and they are different. Also, you are really helping my case here:

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I am well aware. But GRRM put wyverns in asoiaf too, and they are different. Also, you are really helping my case here:

 

I already know that but still.

[Therae]

17 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The threesomes are an interesting idea, as that provides for the possibility that Laenor at least might have slept with his wife (and Harwin).

(I just reread this last night.)

Laenor's lover Qarl Correy was the third, and there were conflicting stories about whether Rhaenyra actually joined in, or whether she left them to their own devices and went off with Harwin:

Quote

Septon Eustace says they shared a bed no more than a dozen times. Mushroom concurs, but adds that Qarl Correy oft shared that bed as well; it aroused the princess to watch the men disporting with each other, he tells us, and from time to time the two would include her in their pleasures. Yet Mushroom contradicts himself, for elsewhere he claims that the princess would leave her husband with his lover on such nights and seek her own solace in the arms of Harwin Strong. (TRP)

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Now, are they? That's the question there. We have no idea whether the ancient Daynes had Valyrian-like features or not.

Nothing indicates the ancient Yi Tish were dragonriders. Perhaps there were dragonriders in Asshai, once. But why should they have gone to Westeros instead of, say, the Lands of the Long Summer? And later to go to Westeros from there (assuming the people in Westeros didn't figure out on their own to bond with a dragon and use it against the Others during the Long Night)?

Skinchanging is not dragonriding. And the Valyrian incest custom makes it pretty clear that 'super old dragon genes' would not survive for long. Unless you assume the Daynes married their own sisters for as long as the Targaryens it is very unlikely that their looks (and the powers that might go with them) were preserved for as long as they would if they always had them.

Keep in mind that only one Dayne has Valyrian-like features. Ashara had dark hair and Edric Dayne's hair isn't silver-golden. Only Darkstar basically look Valyrian.

George doesn't care about genetics. Meaning that there is no thought-out system behind all that. Magical talents and looks are inherited, sure, but apparently not in a systematic so that we can recognize a clear pattern the author has put there.

We know that Lady Rhaena Targaryen married Garmund Hightower. The Hightowers in the series might all be descended from them. In fact, their eldest daughter could even have ruled the city as Lady of Oldtown (and if not, one of those five girls could have married their lordly Hightower cousin).

Alicent was born too early to have a drop of Targaryen blood. If she had had Targaryen ancestors it would have come up when her marriage to Viserys I was discussed.

Let me go full conspiracy for one sec. I think the Bloodstone Emperor was Azor Ahai and fought the Others in Westeros with a dragon at Battle Isle during the Long Night. I think everything was frozen to right about that latitude based on the description of the Rhoyne being frozen all the way down to where it is joined by the Selhoru during the LN. I think the clumsy zombie army was funneled by natural ice formations into marching across Battle Isle in a manner similar to the 300 Spartans fighting the battle of Thermopylae. They would have marched into Essos but were stopped there. It is also very close to Starfall, I'm thinking not a coincidence. And I think the Sword of the Morning is supposed to be someone with a dragon-X gene so he can ride a dragon when the time comes to fight the Others again.

The Valyrian incest custom would keep the genes within the family, which was super important for Valyrians for political reasons, obviously. It's likely, if the Daynes retained their ancient knowledge about genetics and the Sword of the Morning, that they would have made a concerted effort to retain the dragon gene through strategic marriages, if not going full-blown incest. And this may have also served to preserve their Valyrian appearance. And logistically, I always thought it may be possible to test for dragon genes with sickness. Dany notably states that she doesn't remember ever getting a common illness like a cold. That's insane, and I think it would be possible to conduct a crude test on all newborn Daynes to see if they got the gene or not, then plan marriages accordingly. And Ashara had purple eyes, and Edric has big blue eyes "so dark that they looked almost purple".

I would like to see hard evidence that George would not put this kind of genetics stuff in the story, otherwise I'm going to continue considering it the most likely answer. He has written a number of stories with sci-fi style genetics in them, I don't see why he can't be doing it here too.

Yes, Alicent would have had to get the gene from somewhere else, probably the ancient Dayne gene floating around.

[maudisdottir]

The problem with all of these out-there theories is - how is the average reader supposed to get all this? Why is George making his stories so complicated, if only a few people are ever going to pick up on it?

If the average reader (not the minority who frequent forums) did start musing on whether dragon riding was a trait inherited through the mothers, they would only need to do the most cursory research to discover that the dragon riders weren't just coming through the female line; at which point you'd stop your research because there goes that theory. Does George really expect us to then start making up supposed bloodlines for minor characters on the off chance that our original theory turns out to be true? No, we move on. Well, most of us do.