Heresy 198 The Knight of the Laughing Tree

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I took it more as he was reluctant to face his father, not a reluctance to rule

I took it as both--he doesn't want to have to have a falling out with his father, and he doesn't want to rule. For the latter, I'm again giving some credence not just to the "roads not taken," but the fact that he seemed to be characterized as melancholic. 

In addition, just as many people are inclined to look at the possible meaning behind the winter roses in light of the tale of Bael the Bard, I'm inclined to wonder what Summerhall might tell us about Rhaegar's characterization and motives; we're told that he liked to go to Summerhall with his harp, that he was haunted by Summerhall, that he sang a song of love and doom at Griffin's Roost that made people weep (the same song that made the wolf maid sniffle?).

Is there any relationship there to "Jenny's Song?" The Prince of Dragonflies gave up his place in the line of succession to marry Jenny of Oldstones, and both died in the Tragedy at Summerhall--is there any inspiration there in Rhaegar's story, any foreshadowing? I'm inclined to think so, and if we're assuming there's any element of foreshadowing with Bael the Bard, then the winter roses could just as easily be an expression of desire for Lyanna, rather than a political message targeted at Lord Rickard.

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Rhaegar, in contrast, we only see through other characters' memories... which as we should all know by now, are the beloved tool of a writer who loves unreliable narration about as much as he loves New Jersey pizza.

This means that it's much fairer and more accurate to judge Stannis by his actions than to judge Rhaegar by his.  Some of what we think of, when we imagine Rhaegar's actions, is not factually established, can be shown as doubtful through a combination of SSM and canonical content, and in short, quite possibly flat-out never happened.

And other things he did, only fainted hinted here and there, or requiring fans to figure out something else first before they can even see he did it, aren't often incorporated into any assessment of his nobility, when they certainly should be.

This is true, but the one action that seems to be indisputable is the crown of winter roses at Harrenhal--which, even under the most generous interpretations, seems an ignoble act on his part.

Another thing I'm keeping in mind is that, five books deep, we're still not receiving conflicting reports on Rhaegar running off with Lyanna, only conflicting interpretations of his motives; first, we're introduced to history as written by the winners, which presents Rhaegar as a villain, yet all subsequent nuance has been to suggest that he might have loved Lyanna, rather than merely desiring her and taking her against her will.

Going back to the discussion from a few pages ago, the premise that Rhaegar would thoughtlessly run off with Lyanna without regard for the harm to his family it might cause, or the mass death that will ensue, was presented incredulously...yet that is literally what Barristan believes of Rhaegar, even in spite of admiring him. "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it," or however he phrases it. This is the "newest" textual insight we've been given into Rhaegar.

 

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

yet that is literally what Barristan believes of Rhaegar, even in spite of admiring him. "Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it," or however he phrases it. This is the "newest" textual insight we've been given into Rhaegar.

A good example of what I mean by the unreliable nature of GRRM's character memories.  That bit turns up in the same chapter where Selmy also thinks:

Quote

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Well, golly, isn't that interesting.

So it seems

(1) Harrenhal involved Rhaegar not trusting Selmy as much as he trusted Dayne... leading us to wonder "in what sense, based on what events?"... and answering that in obvious ways...

(2) whatever Selmy may think happened or began at Harrenhal, involving Rhaegar and Lyanna, may not be very well informed

And if Selmy ever saw Lyanna again after Harrenhal, with Rhaegar or in any other way, he sure hasn't piped up to that effect.

So while it may be there were, or are, true authorities on the subject of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship, I doubt Barristan the Bold is one of them.

[ravenous reader]

Give it up.  GRRM doesn't want you to know.

It's a game -- and not a fair one.

But your faith -- for such a seemingly acerbically cynical person -- is admirable.

[Melifeather]

9 hours ago, JNR said:

A good example of what I mean by the unreliable nature of GRRM's character memories.  That bit turns up in the same chapter where Selmy also thinks:

Well, golly, isn't that interesting.

So it seems

(1) Harrenhal involved Rhaegar not trusting Selmy as much as he trusted Dayne... leading us to wonder "in what sense, based on what events?"... and answering that in obvious ways...

(2) whatever Selmy may think happened or began at Harrenhal, involving Rhaegar and Lyanna, may not be very well informed

And if Selmy ever saw Lyanna again after Harrenhal, with Rhaegar or in any other way, he sure hasn't piped up to that effect.

So while it may be there were, or are, true authorities on the subject of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship, I doubt Barristan the Bold is one of them.

I agree. It's as if Selmy is implying that he heard the news about Rhaegar and Lyanna from someone other than Rhaegar, that it started at Harrenhall, and Selmy was a bit miffed that Rhaegar hadn't included him in the inner circle that knew. Of course everyone in that inner circle is now conveniently dead.

[JNR]

10 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Give it up.  GRRM doesn't want you to know.

It's a game -- and not a fair one.

But your faith -- for such a seemingly acerbically cynical person -- is admirable.

What is it you think he doesn't want us to know?  It certainly seems fair to me, except in the sense that these books are so long, and there's so much time between them, people simply forget GRRM's text and instead, they remember what other fans said, on sites like this.

I'll give you this... I do only have faith that he will finish the series. 

I just read ADWD and the TWOW sample chapters for the second time.  Something like 1/7th of TWOW is out there already; I have it on my hard drive. Which also means that it is supposed to be about 1/15th of the remainder of the series... and it is nowhere even close to that, in my opinion.

If GRRM realizes it can't be done in two more books, and decides he needs eight, all bets are off. 

So he is just going to have to start optimizing his chapters and getting rid of the pitstops that gobble up all that precious narrative space.  In ADWD, for instance, what happened to Davos merited one chapter at best, but in some amazing way, got four.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's as if Selmy is implying that he heard the news about Rhaegar and Lyanna from someone other than Rhaegar, that it started at Harrenhall, and Selmy was a bit miffed that Rhaegar hadn't included him in the inner circle that knew.

What news do you mean?

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

What news do you mean?

The "news" that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. I think he had no idea of anything between the two until Robert's Rebellion broke out. Then he assumed Rhaegar must have loved Lyanna, because if Rhaegar was responsible, then any other reason was incomprehensible to him.

Getting back to the conveniently dead, I forgot about JonCon. Surely we'll gain some insight closer to the truth through his POV.

[Matthew.]

12 hours ago, JNR said:

So while it may be there were, or are, true authorities on the subject of the Rhaegar/Lyanna relationship, I doubt Barristan the Bold is one of them.

I'm not unaware of the fact that Barristan wasn't a confidant, the point here is the net totality of the context--GRRM has had ample time to begin introducing greater ambiguity, or even to introduce outright conflicting reports, yet our newest POV does nothing but reinforce the link between Rhaegar and Lyanna's absences, and makes Rhaegar's feelings less ambiguous. So, is GRRM doubling down on red herrings, or is he just becoming increasingly less subtle in conveying a story that has been there from the very beginning?

GRRM has left himself just enough wiggle room by adding Jon Connington to begin seeding lots of new, contradictory, information throughout TWOW - which I wouldn't find surprising - but barring that, it's reaching the point where, if Rhaegar didn't desire Lyanna, perhaps even had nothing to do with her disappearance, the revelation is going to take the form of one convoluted expository monologue.

Giving the reader incomplete and ambiguous information, and allowing them to leap to the wrong conclusions is one thing, while giving the reader a perpetually misinformed context that must later be corrected is something else entirely:

"Okay, Lyanna was actually here, and she actually was impregnated by this person (even though I never told you this person had feelings for Lyanna), and Eddard associates her death with the Tower of Joy duel for this reason, and young Jon seems to have been at Starfall for this reason, and this is what Rhaegar was really doing during Robert's Rebellion, and this is why he never clarified the situation with his allies, and this is how the abduction rumor started..."

At a certain point, a revelation becomes so unwieldy that it destroys any impact; it's easy to surprise the reader if the "surprise" is that you've spent five/six/seven books telling them the wrong story.
_______

To bring it back to Barristan, while he wasn't trusted by Rhaegar in the way that Arthur Dayne was, his point of view is not insignificant. Barristan gives us insight into the "other side" of Robert's Rebellion--he would hear what his fellow KG have to say, what the king and the small council had to say, perhaps what Rhaegar himself had to say, as the two did fight on the Trident together. With all of that in mind, his point of view was that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. 

As you state, there are plenty of reasons he could be wrong, but it goes back to my point about the net totality of the context: Barristan could be wrong, the Dying Prince with a woman's name on his lips could have been someone other than Rhaegar, the name someone other than Lyanna's, the "melancholy" Rhaegar could have renamed the Tower of Joy for reasons that had nothing to do with Lyanna, the Kingsguard could have been in Dorne for reasons other than Jon, the Crown of Roses could have had a different context than an expression of admiration, the abduction could be misinformation, Viserys and Cersei and Robert could all be mistaken in assuming that Rhaegar loved/desired Lyanna...

Every individual thing, viewed in a vacuum, has a perfectly reasonable alternative explanation, yet the fact that there are so many points that we need to provide alternative explanations for in the first place is significant.

[Matthew.]

44 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The "news" that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. I think he had no idea of anything between the two until Robert's Rebellion broke out. Then he assumed Rhaegar must have loved Lyanna, because if Rhaegar was responsible, then any other reason was incomprehensible to him.

I'll elaborate on the above: Rhaegar did eventually reappear, and have some time for some conversations - as we see in the exchange with Jaime -, including the marching time to the Trident. 

Furthermore, this SSM from GRRM gives us some insight into the morale of the Dornish army that Rhaegar brought north with him for the final battle:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Baratheon_Brothers/

Quote

Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution. 

I suppose "his treatment of Elia" could mean something other than the winter roses, or the rumor that he'd run off with another woman...it could, but again, it's the net totality of the context.

So how was Rhaegar, accused of running out on his wife and abducting a noblewoman, handling PR at this point in time, as he marched with all of the men he expected to die on his behalf, as he paid his final visit to the Red Keep? "Don't worry, I'll talk about it later. Just provide a simple yes or no answer as to whether I abducted the northern girl? Come on now, be patient!" Or, perhaps, prolonged silences?

Maybe. Or maybe he just told them he loved Lyanna Stark, and that's why Barristan believes what he believes.

[JNR]

23 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The "news" that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. I think he had no idea of anything between the two until Robert's Rebellion broke out. Then he assumed Rhaegar must have loved Lyanna, because if Rhaegar was responsible, then any other reason was incomprehensible to him.

That, yes, very likely.  But he was also at Harrenhal when Rhaegar awarded Lyanna the crown of love and beauty, trumping Rhaegar's own wife, which must have put ideas in Selmy's head about Rhaegar's feelings well before that news.

We know that event actually happened because Ned was there and he saw it personally and he remembers it quite clearly in AGOT:

Quote

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Since it was a huge tourney loaded with nobles from all over Westeros, this would certainly have put ideas in many heads about Rhaegar's feelings.  Long before Lyanna disappeared.

But Selmy's own memories irrefutably establish that he was not in Rhaegar's inner circle.  So we also know is no special authority on the truth.  When he says Rhaegar loved Lyanna, he's simply connecting dots in the same ways, and for the same reasons, as ASOIAF fans on this site usually do.  He is not any better informed than they are.

32 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Getting back to the conveniently dead, I forgot about JonCon. Surely we'll gain some insight closer to the truth through his POV.

Yes, and we already have, really.

For instance, we know from his POV chapters in ADWD that he really believes Aegon is Rhaegar's son, and has been protecting him for most of Aegon's life. 

But we also know he served in the Golden Company, in Essos, for several years after he was exiled by Aerys (and he was exiled months before the Sack, when Aegon ostensibly died).

So we can confidently deduce that JonCon didn't start protecting Aegon for years after he was exiled... and then suddenly he started protecting him -- why? -- apparently because he believed Aegon was legit. 

This, too, is interesting and suggestive.   Because JonCon would surely have heard reports that Aegon's brains had been smashed out in the Sack, and he would have needed some convincing proof to believe anything else, and apparently he got it.

[JNR]

9 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

yet our newest POV does nothing but reinforce the link between Rhaegar and Lyanna's absences, and makes Rhaegar's feelings less ambiguous

That's simply not the case.  It makes Selmy's beliefs less ambiguous, but Selmy's beliefs are a completely different topic, logically speaking, from the truth.

If Selmy thought "The world is flat," that would not make the world's flatness less ambiguous.  It would only make Selmy's beliefs about the world less ambiguous.

To really know the truth about the world, Selmy would either have to have direct experience (such as observing it from space) or would have to be remarkably bright and determined to conduct experiments along such lines. 

But he hasn't got the direct experience, and he isn't remarkably bright and determined to conduct experiments.  He isn't any sort of authority on that subject, any more than he is on Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

That's simply not the case.  It makes Selmy's beliefs less ambiguous, but Selmy's beliefs are a completely different topic, logically speaking, from the truth.

I never said Selmy's beliefs are accurate--we cannot judge their accuracy, nor refute them, because we have no idea what his beliefs are founded on in the first place. The point I was making is that, lacking any witness POVs or weirwood visions (for now), belief is the only thing that we have to draw upon, and every character that has actively opined (of which, Selmy is the latest) on the issue restates variations of the same idea--that Rhaegar was infatuated with Lyanna. Furthermore, there is a vision and other, subtle pieces of information that might reinforce that context.

That doesn't mean it's true, but we're five books in, and GRRM still isn't introducing the dissenting take, the contradictory opinion, even in the form of hearsay and rumor. "Rhaegar loved Lyanna" is not fan theory, it is text, either because GRRM wants to trick the reader into believing that, or because it's true. 
 

5 hours ago, JNR said:

He isn't any sort of authority on that subject, any more than he is on Rhaegar and Lyanna.

As stated above, there is no basis by which we can determine what sort of authority he is, because we don't know the provenance of his belief.

[JNR]

23 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I never said Selmy's beliefs are accurate--we cannot judge their accuracy, nor refute them, because we have no idea what his beliefs are founded on in the first place.

Well, you said the chapter makes Rhaegar's feelings less ambiguous. That would require Selmy's beliefs to be accurate, since Selmy believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. 

But as you've now pointed out, there's no certainty that he was accurate at all.  That means it doesn't matter what Selmy thinks; his thoughts don't make Rhaegar's feelings any less ambiguous.  So we now agree.

Closely related, and also from ADWD:

Quote

“Tormo Fregar will be the new sealord.”

“Is that what they are saying at the Inn of the Green Eel?”

“Yes.”

The kindly man took a bite of his egg. The girl heard him chewing. He never spoke with his mouth full. He swallowed, and said, “Some men say there is wisdom in wine. Such men are fools. At other inns other names are being bruited about, never doubt.” He took another bite of egg, chewed, swallowed. “What three new things do you know, that you did not know before?”

“I know that some men are saying that Tormo Fregar will surely be the new sealord,” she answered. “Some drunken men.”

“Better."

It is better, too.  There's no certainty in the first boldfaced sentence, but there definitely is in the second. 

It's quite an interesting passage for GRRM to have stuck into a book -- almost like he was trying to make a point to his fans.

34 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Furthermore, there is a vision

Which one do you mean?  I can think of a vision involving Rhaegar that's actually quite a problem for RLJ.

[PrettyPig]

6 hours ago, JNR said:

So we can confidently deduce that JonCon didn't start protecting Aegon for years after he was exiled... and then suddenly he started protecting him -- why? -- apparently because he believed Aegon was legit. 

This, too, is interesting and suggestive.   Because JonCon would surely have heard reports that Aegon's brains had been smashed out in the Sack, and he would have needed some convincing proof to believe anything else, and apparently he got it.

Or, perhaps he didn't need proof at all, because the "Aegon Lives!" revelation five years down the line blended seamlessly into private knowledge he already held. 

[ravenous reader]

@JNR and @Matthew.:  good points both.

Quote

Schrö·ding·er's cat

ˌSHrōdiNGərz ˈkat,ˌSHrā-/

noun

PHYSICS

a cat imagined as being enclosed in a box with a radioactive source and a poison that will be released when the source (unpredictably) emits radiation, the cat being considered (according to quantum mechanics) to be simultaneously both dead and alive until the box is opened and the cat observed.

I think the crux of the matter -- and the one that has me rolling my eyes in frustration verging on tedium -- is that GRRM is intent on keeping us in a kind of Schroedinger's cat limbo, in which he wants to have his cake and eat it too, leaving us only the scraps and crumbs in the form of fragmentary rumors and highly subjective POV impressions, with no means of pinning down anything that might come close to qualifying as 'canonical', a stance embodying the elusive ethos of Robert Frost's poem 'The Road Not Taken,' which LynnS and I have been examining on the poetry thread of late.  

The illusion the author is spinning, however, giving false hope to millions of fans, is that sufficient 'hard' clues exist that would potentially enable the 'right ones to be saved' -- provided one is smart enough to figure it out (in contrast to those who are not).  He is the thing that came in the night, and we his 'prentices.  That doesn't mean that we will be guaranteed privileged sight -- even if we pay close attention -- it might just mean we're stumbling in the dark following an unreliable and rather diabolical guide 'who only has at heart your getting lost.'  

Quote

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,

And sorry I could not travel both

And be one traveler, long I stood

And looked down one as far as I could

To where it bent in the undergrowth;

 

Then took the other, as just as fair,

And having perhaps the better claim,

Because it was grassy and wanted wear;

Though as for that the passing there

Had worn them really about the same,

 

And both that morning equally lay

In leaves no step had trodden black.

Oh, I kept the first for another day!

Yet knowing how way leads on to way,

I doubted if I should ever come back.

 

I shall be telling this with a sigh

Somewhere ages and ages hence:

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—

I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference.

I think GRRM has left his options open, trying to 'travel both roads and be one traveller' and 'keeping the first road for another day.'  He has suggested solutions, without providing the means to prove any of them 'conclusively.'  And, in the end, we may just have to be (un)satisfied with that!

[Black Crow]

On 6/3/2017 at 4:50 AM, JNR said:

 

The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

Well, golly, isn't that interesting.

 

It is, but its also revealing.

First, Selmy specifically references Harrenhal. He may well have had his suspicions that he wasn't completely in Rhaegar's confidence and that Harrenhal only proved it, but why that underlying bitterness?

There are two possible explanations, neither of them exclusive and indeed complementary.

The first and most obvious is that Selmy wasn't privy to what Rhaegar was planning. Dayne was. This in itself points to premeditation. Whatever the actual source those Winter roses had to be found and woven into a chaplet beforehand. That takes planning and above all time, which in turn implies that it was set in motion long before the mystery knight rode into the lists. 

Not only was Selmy not involved but on the contrary, it sounds when we read it in conjunction with his other remark about being "a better knight", that he was not only kept out of the loop but may have been actively misled. I really don't see Rhaegar personally sidling up to Selmy and asking him to throw the match, but Dayne acting as a go-between is a very different matter - and especially if he implies to Selmy that it's so the Boss can crown his lawfully-wedded wife

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

@JNR and @Matthew.:  good points both.

I think the crux of the matter -- and the one that has me rolling my eyes in frustration verging on tedium -- is that GRRM is intent on keeping us in a kind of Schroedinger's cat limbo, in which he wants to have his cake and eat it too, leaving us only the scraps and crumbs in the form of fragmentary rumors and highly subjective POV impressions, with no means of pinning down anything that might come close to qualifying as 'canonical', a stance embodying the elusive ethos of Robert Frost's poem 'The Road Not Taken,' which LynnS and I have been examining on the poetry thread of late.  

The illusion the author is spinning, however, giving false hope to millions of fans, is that sufficient 'hard' clues exist that would potentially enable the 'right ones to be saved' -- provided one is smart enough to figure it out (in contrast to those who are not).  He is the thing that came in the night, and we his 'prentices.  That doesn't mean that we will be guaranteed privileged sight -- even if we pay close attention -- it might just mean we're stumbling in the dark following an unreliable and rather diabolical guide 'who only has at heart your getting lost.'  

I think GRRM has left his options open, trying to 'travel both roads and be one traveller' and 'keeping the first road for another day.'  He has suggested solutions, without providing the means to prove them 'conclusively.'  And, in the end, we may just have to be (un)satisfied with that!

Oh I like that and we do know that GRRM likes his Frost.

[LynnS]

15 hours ago, JNR said:

That's simply not the case.  It makes Selmy's beliefs less ambiguous, but Selmy's beliefs are a completely different topic, logically speaking, from the truth.

If Selmy thought "The world is flat," that would not make the world's flatness less ambiguous.  It would only make Selmy's beliefs about the world less ambiguous.

To really know the truth about the world, Selmy would either have to have direct experience (such as observing it from space) or would have to be remarkably bright and determined to conduct experiments along such lines. 

But he hasn't got the direct experience, and he isn't remarkably bright and determined to conduct experiments.  He isn't any sort of authority on that subject, any more than he is on Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Selmy views awarding the crown of roses as a romantic gesture because this is how he views the act himself in relation to Ashara Dayne. It makes good copy for the singers as well.  Ned, on the other hand, does not accord any romance when he says Rhaegar gave Lyanna the queen of beauty's laurel only.   So I question Selmy's interpretation of what he saw and GRRM's omission of queen of love.

I'm inclined to agree with Black Crow that this was a pointedly political gesture and I'm not sure that blue roses are found only at Winterfell, unless the Starks brought them.  It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the rose laurel wasn't blue at all.  They are only blue in Ned's dreams of Lyanna.   He reached for the crown and there were thorns underneath.  He and Robert won the throne together, but there was a price to pay. 

I'd even go so far as to suggest that when Theon dreams of Lyanna in a white dress; that she is actually wearing a wedding dress, at the feast for the dead, which includes everyone who sent south; and that she wore a crown of blue roses at her own wedding. 

[Black Crow]

56 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm inclined to agree with Black Crow that this was a pointedly political gesture and I'm not sure that blue roses are found only at Winterfell, unless the Starks brought them.  It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the rose laurel wasn't blue at all.  They are only blue in Ned's dreams of Lyanna.   He reached for the crown and there were thorns underneath.  He and Robert won the throne together, but there was a price to pay. 

Its an interesting idea that the roses might only be blue in Lord Eddard's dream, as quoted by JNR below. Its possible, but unless a totally different story of "what really happened" emerges, I can't see it being the case. 

Something which occurs to me is that its the gesture not the roses, which is significant. Blue roses are not generally associated with the Starks. We know the Bael the Bard story, we know of the crack in the Wall vision, we know of the Lyanna's ghost vision and of Lord Eddard's dream of rose petals, blue as the eyes of death; but all of this revolves around Lyanna and her son Jon, not House Stark per se.

I think therefore that the blue roses at Harrenhal may have been innocent in their intent. The tournament was a big prestige affair and the expensive blue roses in keeping with that. Crowning Lyanna was seen by all, but it was the act not the roses which they saw. Ned's reaction is to that and the blue roses are something which he alone [retrospectively or otherwise] sees as an omen, just as Catelyn saw the direwolf slain by an antler as an omen. 

 

16 hours ago, JNR said:

He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

[WeKnowNothing]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Ned, on the other hand, does not accord any romance when he says Rhaegar gave Lyanna the queen of beauty's laurel only.   So I question Selmy's interpretation of what he saw and GRRM's omission of queen of love.

GRRM does not use the term 'Queen of Love and Beauty' anywhere in the first book. In fact it was non-existent at that time, and GRRM only first used the phrase the next time he mentions the tourney - which I'm guessing was in the second or third book. Obviously in the first book, GRRM would want us to think Rhaegar raped Lyanna and the crown was meant as an insult of some sort. It wasn't until the later books, is where the 'love' aspect came in whenever they were mentioned. And Selmy would know more than Ned about Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, since atleast he was at kings Landing near Rhaegar. Eventhough Selmy wasn't one of the closest friends, he would know something, anything about Rhaegar's feelings for Lyanna. Ned wouldn't admit it was a love relationship in the first place, because it would be difficult for him to acknowledge Lyanna fell in love/ran off with Rhaegar.

I'd even go so far as to suggest that when Theon dreams of Lyanna in a white dress; that she is actually wearing a wedding dress, at the feast for the dead, which includes everyone who sent south; and that she wore a crown of blue roses at her own wedding. 

Yes, this does imply she was married to Rhaegar. But there was also 'gore splattered on her dress' which could refer to the childbirth as that was how she died (in her 'bed of blood'). So in total, it could just tell us she married Rhaegar, then died giving birth to his child - which looks to becoming true at the moment.