Serra (aka Septa Lemore) and Varys — "Dragons bright and dark"

[SFDanny]

Interesting twist on some old ideas. 

I do think the bright dragon is Ser Gerold Dayne as explained in a very nice thread here 

I don't think Serra is alive, and I think Septa Lemore is Lady Ashara Dayne.

Not at all convinced Varys is a Targaryen, but I like your comments about his castration and the unusual nature of such a blood sacrifice.

I do tend to Young Griff being Illyrio and Serra's son, and a Blackfyre descendant through the female line.

Tell me who do you think was Varys's father? Or did I miss it?

[Castellan]

I haven't heard the idea of Serra being Lemore before. It does have a nice symmetry in that Griff is being raised by a stranger posing as his father and a real mother posing as a stranger.

[Rhae_Valarie]

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

Interesting twist on some old ideas. 

I do think the bright dragon is Ser Gerold Dayne as explained in a very nice thread here 

I don't think Serra is alive, and I think Septa Lemore is Lady Ashara Dayne.

Not at all convinced Varys is a Targaryen, but I like your comments about his castration and the unusual nature of such a blood sacrifice.

I do tend to Young Griff being Illyrio and Serra's son, and a Blackfyre descendant through the female line.

Tell me who do you think was Varys's father? Or did I miss it?

Thank you for the feedback! I'll be sure to check out that thread. Honestly, I don't know who exactly Varys and Serra's parents would be. Another version of this would be that they are not brother and sister at all but that Varys was a Blackfyre and Serra a Brightflame descendent who married Varys' partner Illyrio. However, I prefer the version where they are brother and sister. I'm anxiously awaiting more Dunk and Egg novels, which I feel will give more info on Aerion Brightflame's line and maybe help us figure out who Varys and Serra's parents were (if, of course, they are Blackfyres/Brightflames).

[Rhae_Valarie]

7 hours ago, Castellan said:

I haven't heard the idea of Serra being Lemore before. It does have a nice symmetry in that Griff is being raised by a stranger posing as his father and a real mother posing as a stranger.

Great observation!! I just feel that it is the simplest answer. ADWD was full of evidence that Illyrio was fAegon's father, from the statue in the garden to the little boy's clothing in Illyrio's house. We know that Illyrio had a wife who also had Valyrian features and who many theories point to as fAegon's true mother. which fits with what we know about "Septa Lemore" having given birth to a child. Also, if anyone is going to put all these pieces together it will probably be Tyrion, which makes me think that they are all clues about the plot line Tyrion is currently in, rather than clues to mysteries that Tyrion knows nothing about (for instance, Septa Lemore being Ashara Dayne or Tyene Sand's mother). Thank you for reading and responding!!

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Sorry, I'm not sure exactly what you mean. I did post the links to some threads about the Blackfyre theory and the Brightfyre theory. They include some really great textual evidence.  The original posters did a great job, so I didn't feel the need to rehash, but I did link them in reply to another poster's question.

What I mean is that there isn't anything to indicate that any of Daemon's family sought out the children of Aerion in Lys. The Blackfyre theories have the most potential foreshadowing, but we won't know for sure until the last book is published as there is no actual text of anyone claiming to be Daemon's heir. 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

i personally don't prescribe to the Brightfyre theory, which stipulates that Varys is a Brightflame and Illyrio a Blackfyre because I feel there isn't a ton of evidence. 

There isn't a ton of evidence for any theory on theses boards, save fr R+L=J

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

However I do believe the Blackfyre theory, which posits that Varys is a Blackfyre descendent. My theory that I posted in this thread simply tweaked the circumstances of the mainstream Blackfyre theory, in a couple ways. (However, neither of these theories need mine in order to be true. My theory is just an alternate take on these well known theories).

1. I stipulate that Varys was not a Blackfyre descendent through the female line but in fact the last true Blackfyre. My evidence for this is his castration, which goes far beyond the usual sacrifice of King's Blood. I detail my rational for this more in depth in my original post.

2. In my theory, I state that Varys and Serra have some Brightflame heritage as well. This is based primarily on Moqqorro's prophecy, which strongly suggests that there is a Brightflame running around somewhere, through the phrase "bright dragon". Since both Varys and Serra are from Lys, which Aerion Brightflame spent much time in, I feel this makes them viable candidates. This also fits well with the mainstream Blackfyre theory because Moqqorro speaks of dragons bright and dark. So someone of Blackfyre and Brightflame heritage. I feel this is Varys and Serra. The Brightfyre theory tries to explain Moqqorro's prophecy by finding one person of Blackfyre heritage and one of Brightflame. I tweaked this and stated that it refers to two people (brother and sister) who are a mix of both. Once again, for additional specific textual evidence, I'll refer you to the links I posted in this thread.

I hope that answers your question in a more satisfactory manner. I appreciate you taking the time to read and respond to my theory!

I got this. I was just hoping that there would be something you found that I missed in the novels.

 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

I do have one last question, if you don't mind. I'm still a little confused about your earlier statement that all the Blackfyres were all legitimized at some point. I am aware that, as you just stated, all the great Bastards were legitimized upon Aegon's death. But only one of those Bastards would go on to become a Blackfyre and that was Daemon Waters who later became Daemon I Blackfyre. The other Great Bastards were known by different names. Bittersteel kept his bastard name Aegor Rivers and Bloodraven was still technically Brynden Rivers, so Daemon was the only great bastard who was a Blackfyre and none of his Blackfyre descendents were legitimized because they were never illegitimate. So I guess I'm just not real clear on what you're saying. But if you could clarify it for me I'd love to listen to your point and I appreciate anything you have to say! Thanks again!

Daemon being legitimizes means his entire line was. That's all. 

[Makk]

For those claiming Lemore is Serra, remember that Tyrion has seen a picture of Serra. There are also statements like Illyrio swearing by Serra's hands. Then we come to the description of Lemore...

An older couple with a Rhoynish cast to their features stood close beside the tiller, whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes

This description is terribly off even if the picture that Tyrion saw was some elaborate ruse to trick Tyrion. And her age is likely too old.

I will never say impossible in ASOIAF, but I find it extremely unlikely that Lemore is Serra.

[Rhae_Valarie]

1 hour ago, Makk said:

For those claiming Lemore is Serra, remember that Tyrion has seen a picture of Serra. There are also statements like Illyrio swearing by Serra's hands. Then we come to the description of Lemore...

An older couple with a Rhoynish cast to their features stood close beside the tiller, whilst a handsome septa in a soft white robe stepped through the cabin door and pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes

This description is terribly off even if the picture that Tyrion saw was some elaborate ruse to trick Tyrion. And her age is likely too old.

I will never say impossible in ASOIAF, but I find it extremely unlikely that Lemore is Serra.

Yeah, I think that if Lemore is Serra she would have had to dye her hair, much like Sansa while in the Vale. Tyrion has yet to note eye color, so that is still open. Also it's probably an old picture, from before fAegon was born (if he is her son). 16 years can do a lot to a person's appearance. Regardless, there's no way to know for sure, until the series is complete!!

[Makk]

13 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Yeah, I think that if Lemore is Serra she would have had to dye her hair, much like Sansa while in the Vale. Tyrion has yet to note eye color, so that is still open. Also it's probably an old picture, from before fAegon was born (if he is her son). 16 years can do a lot to a person's appearance. Regardless, there's no way to know for sure, until the series is complete!!

She is constantly swimming. I don't believe she has dyed hair.

[Rhae_Valarie]

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

What I mean is that there isn't anything to indicate that any of Daemon's family sought out the children of Aerion in Lys. The Blackfyre theories have the most potential foreshadowing, but we won't know for sure until the last book is published as there is no actual text of anyone claiming to be Daemon's heir. 

There isn't a ton of evidence for any theory on theses boards, save fr R+L=J

I got this. I was just hoping that there would be something you found that I missed in the novels.

 

Daemon being legitimizes means his entire line was. That's all. 

Okay, thank you for clarifying!! That was a brain freeze on my part. Idk if I found anything in the novels that you missed, but I'll list my evidence real quick:

that Varys was the last Blackfyre:

1. His bald head, which is reminiscent of Egg and may hide Blackfyre silver hair.

2. His political motivation. He claims to "serve the realm", but actively helped to destabilize two regimes that would have brought peace to the realm (Rhaegar and Kevan Lannister) which threw the kingdoms into war and killed countless innocents. So he clearly has a different endgame than just picking a good ruler. Rhaegar would have been great and Tommen, under the tutelage of Kevan, would have been a good king also. However, if he is devoted to putting a BF back in the throne, rather than just anyone good, his moves make more sense.

3. His castration, which is unique to all other blood sacrifices we have seen and, thus far, is only explainable within the context of sacrifing an entire line of Kings.

4. His Lyseni origin. In the World Book, in the section about Lys it says "Even the Targaryen kings and princes of old sometimes turned to Lys in search of wives and paramours, for their blood as for their beauty". I think it is possible that the Blackfyres would have done the same to keep the Valyrian blood pure, which was important to their claim, as Eustace Osgrey stated that many followed Daemon because he looked like a dragon. Therefore, if they turned to Lys, it makes sense to find a Blackfyre in Lys.

5. His name. Perhaps it is worth noting that Varys has a Valyrian sound to it, not dissimilar to Viserys.

6. His involvement with Dany and Viserys. Illyrio and Varys seemed to be working together to help Viserys invade Westeros with an army of Dothraki. Yet many have questioned if this was even a good plan and have suggested that they were setting Visery to weaken Westeros for fAegon to come claim it. Here's a thread on the sub Reddit  that discusses this in depth:https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/422ndm/spoilers_all_does_dany_marrying_khal_drogo/

That Serra is Varys' sister:

1. Also stated as being from Lys.

2. Has the Valyrian look (which is consistent with her and Varys being Blackfyres)

3. Name also has a Valyrian sound and could even be short for Viserra or spelled Saerra.

4. Illyrio and Varys were good friends and partners, so it is plausible that he could have met and fell in love with his friend's sister.

that Varys and Serra are also of Brightflame descent:

1. Moqqorro's prophecy strongly indicates that there is a Brightflame descendent and also relates it to the Blackfyres (dragons bright and dark).

2. Aerion Brightflame spent time in Lys.

3. Aerion had a trueborn son whose fate is pretty open ended at this point, so it is possible his line could have continued through this line, as well as through any Bastards that may have been fathered in Lys.

4. It could make political sense for the Blackfyres to merge with a line of Targs, in order to keep their Targ heritage from being diluted.

That fAegon is Illyrio and Serra's son:

1. The little boy's clothing at Illyrio's place, in which he dresses Tyrion.

2. The statue in Illyrio's garden (which is supposedly of Illyrio) but strongly resembles fAegon. Could be because Illyrio is fAegon's dad or that the statue is really of fAegon.

3. Serra's picture is consistent with fAegon's Valyrian features.

4. fAegon has the support of the Golden Company, which traditionally serves BF not Targs. This makes sense within the context of Serra being a female BF and fAegon being her son.

that Septa Lemore is Serra:

1. We are told that Serra is dead. (Kinda joking, but at this point I question anything that a POV character is told is true.)

2. Lemore is described as very beautiful, which is consistent with what we know of Serra, particularly Illyrio's assertion that she worked in a pleasure house.

3. Lemore is very provocative and easy going, which seems out of character for a Septa who has taken a vow of chastity, but less so for someone who previously worked in a pleasure house.

4. Lemore has stretch marks from childbirth, consistent with her being Serra and having given birth to fAegon. Taking on this identity would have allowed her to remain with her son.

5. Lemore has brown hair, which could possibly be a result of due to hide her Valyrian blonde hair. It is worth noting that Lenore's hair is described as dark brown, the same color that Sanaa's is dyed in the Vale.

For me, the most important peice of evidence is simply narrative cohesion. Why have Tyrion observe all of these clues, if they aren't part of the storyline Tyrion is currently in? For instance, it seems a very popular theory that Septa Lemore is actually Ashara Dayne, but what is Tyrion going to do with that knowledge or clue?To me, it makes much more sense of all these little "clues" ( the stretch marks, the boy's clothes, etc.) and the people Tyrion has met (Varys, Illyrio, Lemore/Serra, fAegon) are all part of the same storyline, which is leading toward him revealing to Dany that "Aegon" is a fake. And the evidence for this happening is extensive, such as Dany's vision in the House of the Undying where they say she is the Slayer of Lies and show her a picture of a cloth dragon. Then, Quaithe refers to a mummer's dragon. Many have pointed out that Varys was a mummer, making fAegon his fake dragon. However, Dany can't slay the lie if she doesn't know it is a lie, and right now, Tyrion is the only character in the position to tell her. I believe that is where his story line is heading.

Anyway, that's everything I've got right now. Sorry for anything you already knew, but I thought it best to throw it all out there. I love that the forums provide a platform for people to communicate about the books, but it can be hard for me personally to converse via the internet. It's just so easy to misunderstand people! Anyway, thanks for your patience!

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Okay, thank you for clarifying!! That was a brain freeze on my part. Idk if I found anything in the novels that you missed, but I'll list my evidence real quick:

that Varys was the last Blackfyre:

1. His bald head, which is reminiscent of Egg and may hide Blackfyre silver hair.

He was from Lys. Lots of people have targ features there

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

2. His political motivation. He claims to "serve the realm", but actively helped to destabilize two regimes that would have brought peace to the realm (Rhaegar and Kevan Lannister) which threw the kingdoms into war and killed countless innocents. So he clearly has a different endgame than just picking a good ruler. Rhaegar would have been great and Tommen, under the tutelage of Kevan, would have been a good king also. However, if he is devoted to putting a BF back in the throne, rather than just anyone good, his moves make more sense.

He didn't actively destabilize the throne under Aerys. He always gave Aerys good counsel, from plots by bannermen, and his own son, to Tywin at the gates. Varys never faltered under Aerys. If Aerys had listened, there would have been a siege and a negotiated surrender rather than a sack and killing. Yes Rhaegar would have been "great" but Varys did not work for him. He worked for Aerys. The King is the realm and the realm is the king. As soon as Aerys was dead, Varys went to work to secure his heir 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

3. His castration, which is unique to all other blood sacrifices we have seen and, thus far, is only explainable within the context of sacrifing an entire line of Kings.

 If you want to sacrifice and entire line of Kings, why not kill the king. The castration/blood sacrifice was brutal, and brutality like that makes sense for chattel. Varys was purchased from a mummers troupe. If destroying a line was important, a bigger deal would have been made. Instead, he was used and tossed away. 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

4. His Lyseni origin. In the World Book, in the section about Lys it says "Even the Targaryen kings and princes of old sometimes turned to Lys in search of wives and paramours, for their blood as for their beauty". I think it is possible that the Blackfyres would have done the same to keep the Valyrian blood pure, which was important to their claim, as Eustace Osgrey stated that many followed Daemon because he looked like a dragon. Therefore, if they turned to Lys, it makes sense to find a Blackfyre in Lys.

The world book states specifically that Aegor took the remaining blackfyres to Tyrosh. The Lys idea is still just something that is necessary to make a theory work, with no text behind it. 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

5. His name. Perhaps it is worth noting that Varys has a Valyrian sound to it, not dissimilar to Viserys.

Yes, he was from Lys, a city rich with the blood of old Valyria. He would look and sound like a Valyrian. 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

6. His involvement with Dany and Viserys. Illyrio and Varys seemed to be working together to help Viserys invade Westeros with an army of Dothraki. Yet many have questioned if this was even a good plan and have suggested that they were setting Visery to weaken Westeros for fAegon to come claim it. Here's a thread on the sub Reddit  that discusses this in depth:https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/422ndm/spoilers_all_does_dany_marrying_khal_drogo/

Yes, Dany and Viserys were always a distraction. Dany was sold off and was not important until she hatched dragons.  Viserys was rash, impulsive, petty and cruel. Not king material. 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

That Serra is Varys' sister:

1. Also stated as being from Lys.

Yes, she is

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

2. Has the Valyrian look (which is consistent with her and Varys being Blackfyres)

Or, she is from Lys, and lots of people from there look Valyrian

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

3. Name also has a Valyrian sound and could even be short for Viserra or spelled Saerra.

That's a reach, but I will go with it 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

4. Illyrio and Varys were good friends and partners, so it is plausible that he could have met and fell in love with his friend's sister.

I agree. And her being a whore would fit with varys being a slave and neither of them being anywhere close to Royal

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

that Varys and Serra are also of Brightflame descent:

1. Moqqorro's prophecy strongly indicates that there is a Brightflame descendent and also relates it to the Blackfyres (dragons bright and dark).

Not at all. He says "Bright and Dark."  Bright could mean a number of things, namely visible or in the open (dany) and dark could mean in hiding (Jon) 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

2. Aerion Brightflame spent time in Lys.

He did 

14 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

3. Aerion had a trueborn son whose fate is pretty open ended at this point, so it is possible his line could have continued through this line, as well as through any Bastards that may have been fathered in Lys.

We do not know that he fathered children in Lys. This being a book, there is no proof in a negative.  Nothing happens with a character until it is written

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

4. It could make political sense for the Blackfyres to merge with a line of Targs, in order to keep their Targ heritage from being diluted.

Actually, mixing your line with the line you consider to be usurping yours would only worsen your claim 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

That fAegon is Illyrio and Serra's son:

1. The little boy's clothing at Illyrio's place, in which he dresses Tyrion.

It would seem quite obvious that (f)Aegon lived for a time in Fatty McFatterton's manse ad that is why Tubbs McGee is so fond of the King. 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

2. The statue in Illyrio's garden (which is supposedly of Illyrio) but strongly resembles fAegon. Could be because Illyrio is fAegon's dad or that the statue is really of fAegon.

Could be. 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

3. Serra's picture is consistent with fAegon's Valyrian features.

Again, she was from Lys. lots of whores in Lys have Valyrian features. 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

4. fAegon has the support of the Golden Company, which traditionally serves BF not Targs. This makes sense within the context of Serra being a female BF and fAegon being her son.

Or, the last Blackfyre pretender died 40 years ago. The reason for their existence died with him. The company has been effectively lost without their primary cause.  Illyrio offered them a way "home"  so they took it 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

that Septa Lemore is Serra:

1. We are told that Serra is dead. (Kinda joking, but at this point I question anything that a POV character is told is true.)

We are told that, and Illyrio's reaction to her memory seems quite plausible 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

2. Lemore is described as very beautiful, which is consistent with what we know of Serra, particularly Illyrio's assertion that she worked in a pleasure house.

Sansa is beautiful too. Does that make her a possible candidate for Serra?  I mean, both of their names start with "S"  and end with "A."  It seems just as plausible if not more so. 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

3. Lemore is very provocative and easy going, which seems out of character for a Septa who has taken a vow of chastity, but less so for someone who previously worked in a pleasure house.

 She is a woman working on a boat with lots of rough and tumble guys. she has to be able to carry herself there. Those skills can easily be gained by living her life. Pleasure houses aren't necessary for that. 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

4. Lemore has stretch marks from childbirth, consistent with her being Serra and having given birth to fAegon. Taking on this identity would have allowed her to remain with her son.

She would not be able to treat him like a son. she would have to hide her love for him. And why leave her husband? 

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

5. Lemore has brown hair, which could possibly be a result of due to hide her Valyrian blonde hair. It is worth noting that Lenore's hair is described as dark brown, the same color that Sanaa's is dyed in the Vale.

Again, reaching. There is no reason to think she dyes her hair. you cannot find proof in a negative.  It makes no sense to say "she does not look like a valyrian, so she must be one."

15 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

For me, the most important peice of evidence is simply narrative cohesion. Why have Tyrion observe all of these clues, if they aren't part of the storyline Tyrion is currently in? For instance, it seems a very popular theory that Septa Lemore is actually Ashara Dayne, but what is Tyrion going to do with that knowledge or clue?To me, it makes much more sense of all these little "clues" ( the stretch marks, the boy's clothes, etc.) and the people Tyrion has met (Varys, Illyrio, Lemore/Serra, fAegon) are all part of the same storyline, which is leading toward him revealing to Dany that "Aegon" is a fake. And the evidence for this happening is extensive, such as Dany's vision in the House of the Undying where they say she is the Slayer of Lies and show her a picture of a cloth dragon. Then, Quaithe refers to a mummer's dragon. Many have pointed out that Varys was a mummer, making fAegon his fake dragon. However, Dany can't slay the lie if she doesn't know it is a lie, and right now, Tyrion is the only character in the position to tell her. I believe that is where his story line is heading.

The one thing that is left out of this is that Tyrion sees a picture of Serra, commissioned by Illyrio. He mentions nothing of any similarities between Lemore and Serra  

[Rhae_Valarie]

6 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

He was from Lys. Lots of people have targ features there

He didn't actively destabilize the throne under Aerys. He always gave Aerys good counsel, from plots by bannermen, and his own son, to Tywin at the gates. Varys never faltered under Aerys. If Aerys had listened, there would have been a siege and a negotiated surrender rather than a sack and killing. Yes Rhaegar would have been "great" but Varys did not work for him. He worked for Aerys. The King is the realm and the realm is the king. As soon as Aerys was dead, Varys went to work to secure his heir 

 If you want to sacrifice and entire line of Kings, why not kill the king. The castration/blood sacrifice was brutal, and brutality like that makes sense for chattel. Varys was purchased from a mummers troupe. If destroying a line was important, a bigger deal would have been made. Instead, he was used and tossed away. 

The world book states specifically that Aegor took the remaining blackfyres to Tyrosh. The Lys idea is still just something that is necessary to make a theory work, with no text behind it. 

Yes, he was from Lys, a city rich with the blood of old Valyria. He would look and sound like a Valyrian. 

Yes, Dany and Viserys were always a distraction. Dany was sold off and was not important until she hatched dragons.  Viserys was rash, impulsive, petty and cruel. Not king material. 

Yes, she is

Or, she is from Lys, and lots of people from there look Valyrian

That's a reach, but I will go with it 

I agree. And her being a whore would fit with varys being a slave and neither of them being anywhere close to Royal

Not at all. He says "Bright and Dark."  Bright could mean a number of things, namely visible or in the open (dany) and dark could mean in hiding (Jon) 

He did 

We do not know that he fathered children in Lys. This being a book, there is no proof in a negative.  Nothing happens with a character until it is written

Actually, mixing your line with the line you consider to be usurping yours would only worsen your claim 

It would seem quite obvious that (f)Aegon lived for a time in Fatty McFatterton's manse ad that is why Tubbs McGee is so fond of the King. 

Could be. 

Again, she was from Lys. lots of whores in Lys have Valyrian features. 

Or, the last Blackfyre pretender died 40 years ago. The reason for their existence died with him. The company has been effectively lost without their primary cause.  Illyrio offered them a way "home"  so they took it 

We are told that, and Illyrio's reaction to her memory seems quite plausible 

Sansa is beautiful too. Does that make her a possible candidate for Serra?  I mean, both of their names start with "S"  and end with "A."  It seems just as plausible if not more so. 

 She is a woman working on a boat with lots of rough and tumble guys. she has to be able to carry herself there. Those skills can easily be gained by living her life. Pleasure houses aren't necessary for that. 

She would not be able to treat him like a son. she would have to hide her love for him. And why leave her husband? 

Again, reaching. There is no reason to think she dyes her hair. you cannot find proof in a negative.  It makes no sense to say "she does not look like a valyrian, so she must be one."

The one thing that is left out of this is that Tyrion sees a picture of Serra, commissioned by Illyrio. He mentions nothing of any similarities between Lemore and Serra  

You asked for the parts of the book that inspired my theory, in case there was anything new there. I told them to you. Obviously my theory is speculation and possibilities. That's what makes it a theory. If it were conclusively stated in the books, it would just be canon. I am not saying that any of those clues "prove" I am right. I am saying they provide possibilities, one of which I described in my thread because it was a possibilty I hadn't seen discussed before. I posted it because I thought it was a fun idea to entertain. I am well aware that we won't know the reality until the next book is out, maybe even until ADOS. That's cool. It's just an idea to pass the time.

[sweetsunray]

On 26/6/2017 at 11:01 PM, BalerionTheCat said:

Bright and Dark. I'm not sure. I'm convinced Varys is Blackfyre. IMO Illyrio Brightflame is pure speculation. But with this prophecy, it makes some sense. But I'm also convinced Jaime and Cersei are Aerys bastards. And if one is dark, the other is bright. And Tyrion is truly between the two. I'd rather give the bright flames to Cersei and the dark story to Jaime. Maybe, Bright and Dark has two meanings.

Tyrion meets Ben Plumm, a dark Plumm with 2 drops of Targ blood (that is, he's truly a descendant of an incestuous affair between Aegon IV and his cousin either on the night of her marriage to Plumm, who died before bedding her, or shortly after or before). And the dragons like him. Plumm is mix of Dothraki, Braavosi, a few other regions, and then Targaryen. Anyway, we shouldn't forget about Plumm being a "dragon".

The consecutive Black Pearls of Braavos are also descendants of a dragon, and if Ben Plumm doesn't have a Black Pearl as an ancestor, then the current one Benegerys might be counted as a dragon too. But Tyrion hasn't met her yet, and he might never meet her, unless he goes to Braavos.

Quite honestly, I think Daario might actually be the Blackfyre-Bittersteel descendant. His eyes get a purplish hue when he wears purple and dyes his hair that color. But he masks the natural color of his hair, always. If it was Valyrian silver-blonde he'd have flaunted it for Dany. But Bittersteel who married one of the Daemon Blackfyre's daughters (the female line), had dark hair. So, their descendants would likely still sport the purple hue in the eyes, but have the mundane dark hair, so you might as well dye it blue or purple. 

 

[sweetsunray]

21 hours ago, Makk said:

She is constantly swimming. I don't believe she has dyed hair.

You can swim with dyed hair, without the dye gong away... ask any woman who dyes her hair.

[Makk]

39 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

You can swim with dyed hair, without the dye gong away... ask any woman who dyes her hair.

Natural medieval-era dyes where you can't risk it fading or washing off on your nice bright white septa robe? If you had any sense would you really risk it? 

[sweetsunray]

16 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

His castration, which is unique to all other blood sacrifices we have seen and, thus far, is only explainable within the context of sacrifing an entire line of Kings.

I've got two quotes that parallel his castration in remarkable ways... And neither actually have anything to do with a royal blood sacrifice.

So here's Varys's story

Quote

"He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke." (aCoK, Tyrion X)

The Unsullied:

Quote

 

"In Yunkai and Meereen, eunuchs are often made by removing a boy's testicles, but leaving the penis. Such a creature is infertile, yet often still capable of erection. Only trouble can come of this. We remove the penis as well, leaving nothing. The Unsullied are the purest creatures on the earth." (aSoS, Daenerys II)

Grey Worm looked troubled. "The goddess is called by many names. She is the Lady of Spears, the Bride of Battle, the Mother of Hosts, but her true name belongs only to these poor ones who have burned their manhoods upon her altar. We may not speak of her to others. [...] (aDwD, Daenerys VI)

 

Surely the majority of the Unsullied aren't royal blood.

And then we have this scene with Dany in Qarth when wearing a robe of purple silk.

Quote

In the quiet of her chambers, Dany stripped off her finery and donned a loose robe of purple silk. Her dragons were hungry, so she chopped up a snake and charred the pieces over a brazier. They are growing, she realized as she watched them snap and squabble over the blackened flesh. (aCoK, Daenerys II)

Dany doesn't chop up a penis and testicles, but a snake. However, a penis is nicknamed a one-eyed-snake. She feeds the snake to the magical dragons and they grow. It's a parallel scene to Varys's scene in imagery, but instead of blue flame and a voice, here you have magical dragons spitting all sorts of colored flame.

 

17 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

His bald head, which is reminiscent of Egg and may hide Blackfyre silver hair.

Varys is not just hiding his natural color of hair, but also concealng or masking his natural skin tone with powder (face AND hands).

Plenty of bald people in the books... Belwas, Xaro, Ilyn Payne... That said, I'm not discounting the Egg-Varys link, because actually there are links between Xaro and Varys, and also Varys and House Payne.

Varys and Qarth: a Qaathi ruinous city NW of Qarth near the Red Waste that was renamed "City of Spiders" by the Dothraki, the Qaathi enemies also destroyed by the Dothraki wore "spider silk", and a lost city in the grassland area (where both Qaathi and their enemies originate from, that is from the grasslands) that revered a spider goddess. Varys almost sounds like a Qartheen Sorrowful man to Kevan in the Epilogie with his "forgive me" and "I'm sorry" before ending Kevan's life. And when he speaks as Lord Varys, sometimes all you miss to have Xaro speaking is a perfect single tear rolling from Varys's cheek.

The introductory color scheme that Varys wears is gold and purple (in the same scene where Cat refers to him as being as bald as an egg). This is the color scheme of House Payne - purple, white chequi with gold coins. Tyrion hinted there's a story behind the coins, but not what it actually is. And of course Podrick's eyes are as big as boiled "eggs" at times. House Plumm also sports the gold-purple scheme, except that Varys wears lavender and lilac purple, not plumm. The man who favors a jacket of plum color is actually Littlefinger. And the one time that Tyrion makes a remark about it to LF (as in - those aren't your house colors), LF wears it with yellow satin (yellow satin looks like gold). He wears the plum vest 2 or 3 more times. 

Anyway, plenty of bald guys, but either they can be linked to Varys, or they can be linked to a certain line of dragon descendants. Without checking them all, I'm not sure we can say straightforwardly - Varys is a Blackfyre. In fact the Egg link ties Varys more to Brightflame, since Aerion threatened to cut Egg stem and root

Anyway, Varys's ancestry is a complex mixture imo - partly Qaathi, probably enslaved by Dothraki in the Century of Blood, with all those hints to Qarth and grasslands, and then Valyrian blood in Lys, possibly with a drop of Aerion Brightflame in his blood. If the latter is true you get a very ironic reversal: Aerion Brightflame was the mad sadistic prince who ended up killing himself by drinking wildfire, while Egg was the prince who grew up amongst commoners almost and a king who tried to rule for the people (rather than favoring lords). And then Varys as a descendant of Brightflame grows up as slave and thief and commoner plotting to get a king on the throne who was raised as a commoner who he intends to rule for the people, not lords, while Egg's descendant Aerys was as mad as Brightflame and both Egg and Aerys fooled around with wildfire with disastrous results. That said, the reverse parallel works too if Aegon is a descendant of Brightflame, and Varys doesn't have a drop of Targ blood. That he sports lilac and lavender doesn't have to mean he has Targ blood, just that he's a supporter or allied with Targs with lilac links, just as Littlefinger's plum vest with gold (yellow satin) makes him a parallel to the mercenary Ben Plumm, who switches to the side who offers him the most gold and/or chance to win.

17 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

2. His political motivation. He claims to "serve the realm", but actively helped to destabilize two regimes that would have brought peace to the realm (Rhaegar and Kevan Lannister) which threw the kingdoms into war and killed countless innocents. So he clearly has a different endgame than just picking a good ruler. Rhaegar would have been great and Tommen, under the tutelage of Kevan, would have been a good king also. However, if he is devoted to putting a BF back in the throne, rather than just anyone good, his moves make more sense.

Varys hates magic. Rhaegar was totally into prophecy and therefore magic. Aerys loved wildfire, which is also a magical product. Sounds good enough reasons for Varys imo to want to see them gone. He explains to Kevan what's wrong with Tommen - he wasn't raised amongst commoners, never having done a commoner's labour in his life.

Overall, Varys is written as a trickster-character. You've got villainous tricksters like Loki, and you've got tricksters like Br'er Rabbit, Anansi or Iktomi (the last two are spider tricksters) who are trickster-heroes. The latter are not in it for themselves or their personal revenge. They make trouble with the establishment, whether they are the gods or the nobility, even if the common people and the trickster pay for it. For cultures where trickster heroes arise in tales (such as Anansi with the Caribbean slaves) it's important to recognize that the commoners or slaves are fucked anyway, whether the trickster overturns the establishment or not. They're the dogs that always get kicked. The sole way there ever can be change is if the establishment is exposed.

As a trickster character Varys can be a heroic figure with an ideal in mind, despite it costing in the short term for the commoners. This is different with Littlefinger who's messing with establishment purely out of personal satisfaction and self-enrichment or empowerment. LF doesn't really want to change anything. He just wants to win the big cake

17 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

His Lyseni origin. In the World Book, in the section about Lys it says "Even the Targaryen kings and princes of old sometimes turned to Lys in search of wives and paramours, for their blood as for their beauty". I think it is possible that the Blackfyres would have done the same to keep the Valyrian blood pure, which was important to their claim, as Eustace Osgrey stated that many followed Daemon because he looked like a dragon. Therefore, if they turned to Lys, it makes sense to find a Blackfyre in Lys.

While I'm inclined to believe that he was born a slave in Lys, it must be said that Pycelle is the sole man who ever claimed this. We don't know how Pycelle knows this. It never comes up again. 

And it also has to be said that both Tyrion and Illyrio refer to Varys as being "from Myr". This is most likely a reminder to how Varys the trickster figure was metaphorically born in Myr because of his castration (just like the castration of the Unsullied makes them something they were not before, regardless of their actual origin). It's in Myr that Varys the thief is born, and thieving and guarding and stealing secrets as well as spreading rumors are typical trickster motifs. The world book though says that the origin of the Myrmen is "murky". And I think we can trasnfer this to Varys - his origins is a murky mixture. And I think it is very likely that George does not want to make Varys specifically anything, but a murky mixture. The castration of "root and stem" is a literary metaphor to cut Varys away and liberate him from his factual blood roots. What he became because of the castration is far more important to George I think than what blood he has in his veins.

Daemon Blackfyre and his children fled to Tyrosh, not Lys, BTW.

18 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Name also has a Valyrian sound and could even be short for Viserra or spelled Saerra.

And/or it could be a worplay on "varies".

As for Serra: there is actually a Saera Targaryen who fled from Westeros across the narrow sea to Lys first, where she stayed for a while, before moving on to Volantis where she became the owner of a pleasure/pillow house. She was one the daughters of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. LIke her older sister Maegelle she was promised to the Faith. Maegelle became a septa who helped treating children having caught greyscale, became infected herself and died of the disease (hmmm Serra died because of the Grey Plague, a "variant" of Greyscale). But Saera fled from the motherhouse while a novice, for unknown reasons. Her younger sister remained in the Red Keep, but was seduced by a singer and drowned herself in the Blackwater when she discovered she was with child. Alysane died not long after her favourite daughter's suicide. Meanwhile Jaehaerys in his old age confused young Alicent Hightower with his daughters and eventually came to believe she was Saera returned from across the narrow sea. The world book (that is Maester Yandel) explains she lived in Lys for a while and then moved on to Volantis, but it's not specifically stated that Jaehaerys ever knew where Saera had disappeared to, except across the narrow sea. In parallel with Hoster Tully thinking Cat is Lysa, and how Alysane died broken hearted over the youngest daughter, we may surmise that Jaehaerys felt eithre guilty towards Saera or that she was actually his favourite child.

Now, it's possible that Saera simply fled the motherhouse because she didn't want to become a septa, but since her elder sister did actually become a septa it's likely that Jaeharys would have welcomed Saera back in the Red Keep and that the Fiath would have let her go if she was that unwilling based on temperament alone. Arrangements could have been made... unless something happened to Saera that made her too ashamed to return to her father the king and her mother the queen. It's not impossible that she fled because she was secuded and preggers. Like her younger sister she would have been too ashamed, but of stronger character she could have decided to flee and prevent the king and queen the disgrace of having a novice daughter who was with child. If that happened then likely she stayed in Lys to deliver the child, but abandoned it to move on to Volantis. I suspect that it actually was Steffon Baratheon who discovered Saera's fate in Volantis as a brothel madam when he looked for a suitable bride for Rhaegar in Volantis. As he and his footmen inquired for a bride for a Targ, likely one of his footmen visited a brothel where they'd heard the story. Steffon likely wrote more (letters) than just about the fool he found for Stannis, and the info would have been passed on to the Citadel for Yandel to mention in the world book.

Anyway: we've got a once pregnant septa, a Serra, a Lyseni pillow house, Valyrian looks, death by grey plague combined between Serra and Aegon, all elements that return in Saera Targaryen and her sisters. George wrote about Saera Targaryen for the world book and the Rogue Prince deliberately imo to put her in there as a link to Serra from Lys. What the link is can only be speculated - literary or blood. And the sole reason she's overlooked imo is because she doesn't fit the "Find the Blackfyre! There must be a Blackfyre!" search. 

18 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

3. Lemore is very provocative and easy going, which seems out of character for a Septa who has taken a vow of chastity, but less so for someone who previously worked in a pleasure house.

Lemore is also one who actually believes. She's a free spirit, but also quite a spiritual believer of the Faith.

Swimming naked should remind you of "water gardens" imo. Lemore has a link to Dorne. And no I absolutely do not think she's Ashara (Lemore is too old to be Ashara). That said, I don't think Lemore is actually Dornish at all, but she spent a lot of time there.

The identity of Lemore serves one major plot purpose - she's the one who'll make Arianne believe upon sight and her word that Aegon is the real thing. Arianne's mission to Storms End is to verify whether it's true that JonCon isn't dead and that Aegon is basically her cousin, Elia's son. There is no way that Aegon or JonCon can prove that to Arianne, unless they have a person with them that Arianne knows personally and will believe upon her word because of it.

tWoW Arianne chapters

Spoiler

Of Aegon's inner circle Arianne so far has met Lysono Maar (the Lyseni spymaster of the GC) and Haldon Halfmaester. She doesn't recognize them, so she never knew them.

She is going to meet Lemore quite soon, but likely before meeting Aegon and JonCon (who'll probably be in the field against/with the Tyrells (depending on whether Mace will turn his cloak or not).

There is one septa who was pregnant once, who fits the age, that Arianne knows personally - Tyene's mother. She's originally from the Reach, but apparently lived in Dorne for a while. I speculate she was sent to Sunspear to serve the Martells and their newly born heirress Arianne, was seduced by Oberyn, remained in Dorne for a while. And while she loved her Tyene she also remained spiritually faithful to her Faith - hence why she sings the songs of the Faith to baby Tyene. Of all the Sand Snakes, Tyene is Arianne's favourite. She thinks of Tyene as the sister she never had. Tyene is the important beloved Sand Snake to Arianne. 

Arianne visited Tyene's mother once in the Reach, across the Mander. No timeframe is given for this, except that it was Arianne with 3 Sand Snakes. Arianne would have unlikely traveled to the Reach before turning 10. Both Tyene and Arianne were born in either 276 or 277 AC. So, the earliest vague guess you can have them travel to visit Tyene's mother would be in 286 or 287. When Arianne remembers vitising Tyene's mother with the 3 Sand Snakes (one would be Tyene herself) it isn't in the same passage as them trying to pull misschief. It seems a proper family visit. And if they were children, they would have been accompanied by Oberyn.

Oberyn is very good at using regular visits as a mask for other more personal reasons. Oberyn's main purpose could have been to ask Tyene's mother of a favor, but masking it as a visit for Tyene's sake, by taking Arianne and Tyene and 2 other Sand Snakes along. I suspect that Oberyn learned of the possible survival of Aegon through an Essosi sellsword. Oberyn fought with sellsword companies in Essos and even created his own company. So he has contacts in Essos, some of which may have joined the Golden Company, then the so called theft and death of JonCon. Oberyn would have known what type of guy JonCon was and just thought it all very fishy. Somehow he got wind of the JonCon-Aegon plot and he wanted it verified imo. And he wanted someone to infiltrate JonCon's forming group. 

Because of her pregnancy Tyene's mother would have been put out of the motherhouse. Because of her spiritual calling though she unlikely agreed to be married to some lord's son. Here was her chance to actually be a septa in spirit without embarassing anyone. And so "for Oberyn" she was brought into contact with Toyne (through Oberyn's contacts) and thus introduced to JonCon's group. That would be the year 287 or 288, when Aegon officially would be about 5 years old, the time that JonCon was recruited by Varys to rear Aegon.

Because of the visit, Arianne would recognize Lemore at first sight. And if Lemore reveals to her, as Tyene's mother, how she served Oberyn's wishes, and assures Arianne that she believes Aegon to be Elia's son, then Arianne will send the letter "dragon!" to Doran the same day, for sure. 

There's only one minor issue - Tyene has blond hair, and she must have that of her mother. But Tyene's mother may indeed be dying her hair. And in fact the age that Tyrion remarks on for Lemore suggests that she is dying her hair. A brown haired woman in her 40s would sport grey hairs, but we have no mention of Lemore sporting grey hair. Only women I know in their 40s without grey hairs dye it. And no, taking a shower or going swimming doesn't wash out the dye instantly, only gradually. Lemore has her own private quarter on the Shy Maid where she can dye her hair brown as much and as often as she likes without anyone knowing it. 

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Makk said:

Natural medieval-era dyes where you can't risk it fading or washing off on your nice bright white septa robe? If you had any sense would you really risk it? 

Those dyes aren't "natural" anymore. The natural dyes of Tyrosh are dark red, crimson and indigo. Chemical additions and mixing is how the Tyroshi developed the later dyes, including the brown.

Dye washes off the first time you apply new dye. If you rinse it a lot, it won't wash off at all the next day. Lemore has her own private quarter on the Shy Maid where she can apply dye and rinse all she likes. And no man woud enter her quarter, but fully respect a Septa's privacy.

She's in her 40s. Which naturally brown haired woman in her 40s who doesn't dye her hair do you know without grey hairs? I don't know any such woman. George didn't make her 30 but in her 40s. That's the physical anomaly that George inserted - brown haired woman, in her 40s, living a rather common life of menial work, having been pregnant once, all day in the sun, and NO grey hairs. She doesn't have grey hairs in her brown hair, because the brown hair isn't her natural color - it's dye.

[Makk]

Just now, sweetsunray said:

Those dyes aren't "natural" anymore. The natural dyes of Tyrosh are dark red, crimson and indigo. Chemical additions and mixing is how the Tyroshi developed the later dyes, including the brown.

Dye washes off the first time you apply new dye. If you rinse it a lot, it won't wash off at all the next day. Lemore has her own private quarter on the Shy Maid where she can apply dye and rinse all she likes. And no man woud enter her quarter, but fully respect a Septa's privacy.

She's in her 40s. Which naturally brown haired woman in her 40s who doesn't dye her hair do you know without grey hairs? I don't know any such woman. George didn't make her 30 but in her 40s. That's the physical anomaly that George inserted - brown haired woman, in her 40s, living a rather common life of menial work, having been pregnant once, all day in the sun, and NO grey hairs. She doesn't have grey hairs in her brown hair, because the brown hair isn't her natural color - it's dye.

I'm 40 and my hair is completely brown with virtually no grey. The description of her hair does not say she has no grey hair, it says a lock of her hair is dark brown. This is not what you are claiming. We don't know what her past life is like but the position of septa is not particularly menial, and besides that has virtually nothing to do with whether your hair will go grey, that is down to genetics. Their are many different ethnicities and people whose hair is likely to be largely black or dark brown well past 50 and not fade in the sun.

Lemore has a cabin on old style boat. I would be surprised if it had running water let alone a shower. It is a river boat where people go into the river to wash, certainly as far as I am aware nothing indicates they have running water.

I found your quote Tyrosh dyes...

Later centuries saw them devise dyes of a hundred other shades and hues, some naturally and some through alchemy. Brightly colored garments won the favor of lords and princes the world over, and the dyes that produced them all came from Tyrosh. The city grew rich, and with wealth came ostentation. Tyroshi delight in flamboyant display, and men and women both delight in dyeing their hair in garish and unnatural colors.

...I presume this is what you are referring to? I guess it is a fantasy novel so the writer can add in what he wants. I'm still not inclined to take the word "Alchemy" to mean the equivalent of our modern dyes (which still fade and wash off prodigiously). Particularly when the he keeps talking about washing the dye out of hair easily. But fair enough, it's possible they may have access to superior dyes than we did prior to the last 30 or so years (which still fade and wash off significantly in water).

Besides all this is just another little reason why she isn't Serra. As an aside, she isn't described as "very beautiful" but  "She was past forty, more handsome than pretty, but still easy on the eye."

 

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Makk said:

I'm 40 and my hair is completely brown with virtually no grey.

That's why I said IN HER 40s. And once it comes it adds fast.

19 minutes ago, Makk said:

The description of her hair does not say she has no grey hair, it says a lock of her hair is dark brown.

You'd think Tyrion might remark on it if she had grey hair no?

And that's a peculiar phrasing you use... it says she "pushed a lock of dark brown hair from her eyes".

That's not saying a lock of her hair is dark brown, but the she has dark brown hair and that she pushes a lock of it from her eyes.

22 minutes ago, Makk said:

We don't know what her past life is like but the position of septa is not particularly menial, and besides that has virtually nothing to do with whether your hair will go grey, that is down to genetics.

Genetics and exposure to the elements, trauma, stress and labor. The genetics give an age range, but it can appear at the minimum age or maxium age depending on the rest.. sort of as with skin and wrinkles. I doubt that Theon's and Lancel's hair turned to grey straw because of genetics alone.

We know that the past decade at least, Lemore was a member of the boat, and just like everybody else she's supposed to help out.

29 minutes ago, Makk said:

Their are many different ethnicities and people whose hair is likely to be largely black or dark brown well past 50 and not fade in the sun.

Is Lemore of such ethnicity? No, she isn't.

30 minutes ago, Makk said:

...I presume this is what you are referring to? I guess it is a fantasy novel so the writer can add in what he wants. I'm still not inclined to take the word "Alchemy" to mean the equivalent of our modern dyes (which still fade and wash off prodigiously). Particularly when the he keeps talking about washing the dye out of hair easily. But fair enough, it's possible they may have access to superior dyes than we did prior to the last 30 or so years (which still fade and wash off significantly in water).

I have grey hair since my late 20s and been dying it since my early 30s between copper and mahogany, including using natural henna. Dye (the chemical stuff nor henna) doesn't wash off easily at all. Nor does it fade. It only grows out at the roots, because hair grows and the new growth isn't dyed. It only colors the water when you rinse the first fresh application. I can wear my white bathrobe after a shower the next day fine enough with having to worry it getting stained. And yes, I'm pretty sure that since Tyrosh specialised in dyes to color hair and clothes (aka fixate it) for centuries that George can have them make dyes that are fixated.

The dye that washes out is the indigo dye that JonCon and Aegon use. That's the natural snail dye, based on an adapted diet of the snails. Although I suspect they might have to use special soap for it. Otherwise Aegon and JonCon would be dripping blue dye whenever they go for a swim, no? Lemore is not the only one said to be swim in the river.

As for her room. She doesn't need running water to apply the dye and rinse it. Sansa doesn't use running water to reapply her dye either.

41 minutes ago, Makk said:

Besides all this is just another little reason why she isn't Serra.

I don't believe she's Serra. That wasn't why I discussed the possibility of dyes. As I explained in another post to the OP, I think Lemore is Tyene's mother.

[Makk]

36 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Is Lemore of such ethnicity? No, she isn't.

You don't know what ethnicity she is, but quite likely yes she is. We have golden skin and brown (disputed) hair to go on. Basically a type IV pigmentation which fits into our real world Mediterranean/Latin American well. Fits fine for someone with a mixture of Rhoynish descent Dornish, Myrish plus a lot of other possibilities and mixtures.

Googling what age do people start going grey reveals that 50% of the population has about 50% grey hair by the time they are 50. Looking into it more... Normally, grey hairs make their appearance for the first time in mid-thirties in those who have fair skin with blonde hair like Caucasians, in late-thirties in case of those who have olive skin with brown to black hair like Asians and, in mid-forties in those with black skin and hair like Africans. And... Men start graying earlier than women.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that at her (speculated) age that she should have grey hair.

37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't believe she's Serra. That wasn't why I discussed the possibility of dyes. As I explained in another post to the OP, I think Lemore is Tyene's mother.

I read your post but why would she need to dye her hair? If she did have some distinctive Valaryian/Lyseni platinum or golden blonde hair there is a reason, but with any other hair that is not linked with hiding a (fake) Targaryen why bother? 

[Makk]

Just another reason why Lemore is not Serra (nothing to do with dye), is that Aegon presumably did not recognise her before Jon acquired her (Jon would have picked up on it if they knew each other). Now it is well and good to argue that Illyrio convinced her to hide her "true" identity from Aegon from a very young age, but I believe she would have done that and still taken on a role in his life Why ignore him from age 2 to 10 (or whatever) and start teaching him later?