Rhaegar vs Aerys?

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 8/4/2017 at 6:48 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

In this world at this time, sure. But in the world of ASOIAF, she had no right to go off with Rhaegar. Her father Lord of Winterfell had betrothed her to another. 

Yes, but that does not mean it is  it was kidnapping. She was a petulant child and he was the second most powerful man in the realm 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 8/4/2017 at 9:42 PM, TMIFairy said:

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/002/109/orly_owl.jpg

Yep 

[Dorian Martell's son]

12 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

She only had a touch of wolf's blood , while Brandon had more than a touch . That is according to Eddard Stark .

Yes, and she ran off with the sexy rocker prince and he got himself killed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Yes, but that does not mean it is  it was kidnapping. She was a petulant child and he was the second most powerful man in the realm 

It was a kidnapping the same way a 27 year old man having sex with a 15 year old girl is rape, whether she wants it or not. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

20 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It was a kidnapping the same way a 27 year old man having sex with a 15 year old girl is rape, whether she wants it or not. 

By definition, you cannot kidnap, or rape for that matter, the willing. And there are no consent laws in westeros either.  If she went willingly, and there is no reason to believe otherwise except for Bob's personal view,  then it wasn't a kidnaping  

[Lost Melnibonean]

26 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

By definition, you cannot kidnap, or rape for that matter, the willing. And there are no consent laws in westeros either.  If she went willingly, and there is no reason to believe otherwise except for Bob's personal view,  then it wasn't a kidnaping  

She was the daughter of Rickard of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell, and betrothed to Robert of House Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. She had no right to run off. In other words, what she wanted was not relevant. She was taken against her Lord Father's will. Therefore, it was a kidnapping. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If none of what happened, happened, Rhaegar would have gotten his mother, Varys, and everyone else on his side and deposed his father quickly and neatly.

He would have had to get Varys first, but that could be done. The pitch is pretty easy: "I won't burn you alive."

[Aegon VII]

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It was a kidnapping the same way a 27 year old man having sex with a 15 year old girl is rape, whether she wants it or not. 

 

12 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She was the daughter of Rickard of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell, and betrothed to Robert of House Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. She had no right to run off. In other words, what she wanted was not relevant. She was taken against her Lord Father's will. Therefore, it was a kidnapping. 

Is your argument that it's a kidnapping because she's underage and therefore her consent is irrelevant or because a lords daughter is the fathers property?

i guess a good clarifying question would be lets say lyanna was 21 and left willingly. Did rhaegar still kidnap her?

 

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She was the daughter of Rickard of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell, and betrothed to Robert of House Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End. She had no right to run off. In other words, what she wanted was not relevant. She was taken against her Lord Father's will. Therefore, it was a kidnapping. 

Nope. She went with the prince against her lord father's will. She was being willful and disobedient. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Aegon VII said:

 

Is your argument that it's a kidnapping because she's underage and therefore her consent is irrelevant or because a lords daughter is the fathers property?

i guess a good clarifying question would be lets say lyanna was 21 and left willingly. Did rhaegar still kidnap her?

The beauty of common law, much like selecting a national champion in American college football, is how there are few bright lines. It's determined by precedent, argument, and prevailing notions of right and wrong. Lyanna's age would not be the determinative factor, but it might be a mitigating factor. She certainly is not her father's property or chattel, but her father does have plenary power over her marriage prospects. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

45 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Nope. She went with the prince against her lord father's will. She was being willful and disobedient. 

The betrothal was a sacred contract. Wars are fought over violating them. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. If she went willingly, and I suspect she might have, then she was complicit in the kidnapping, but it was still a kidnapping. 

[cpg2016]

 

On 8/4/2017 at 8:09 PM, Dorian Martell's son said:

This being a fantasy novel, she was not married earlier so her father could use her for his alliance building. Couple this with her wolf's blood like her older brother and her willingly leaving her retinue to go off with the sexy prince is far more plausible than her being dragged away at sword point 

Wait, you are saying that Lyanna is likely to run off with a prince she's just met, throwing her family into chaos and essentially ruining her own life and that of her family and potential kids, because of "a touch of the wolf's blood"?  This is absurd.

We have only one fact here, and that is that Rhaegar, with six companions, at least two and almost certainly six of them heavily armed, accosted Lyanna on the road, and took her to a remote, secret location. 

The very fact that it's armed men vs an unarmed girl suggests abduction, and the choice of the Tower of Joy makes it almost positive.  There is not a single logical reason to go there versus almost anywhere else unless Lyanna is an unwilling victim.

[Dorian Martell's son]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The betrothal was a sacred contract. Wars are fought over violating them. Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna. If she went willingly, and I suspect she might have, then she was complicit in the kidnapping, but it was still a kidnapping. 

Self kidnapping is physically impossible by definition.
as per the wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping
"In criminal law, kidnapping is the unlawful asportation and confinement of a person against his or her will"

So, the betrothal was a sacred contract, yes, and wars were fought over them, yes, but because she went of her own free will, it it impossible for it to be a kidnapping. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Wait, you are saying that Lyanna is likely to run off with a prince she's just met, throwing her family into chaos and essentially ruining her own life and that of her family and potential kids, because of "a touch of the wolf's blood"?  This is absurd.

Oh sweet summer child. I suggest you re-read our beloved novels.  As the first daughter of the warden and lord paramount of the north, she would have met the prince, and not only did she meet him, but she was emotionally moved by a performance he did at the largest tourney in history.  As for throwing her family into chaos and ruining her life, well, she has the wolfs blood liker her brother, and his wolf blood got him and their father killed, and put the lives of her brother and her betrothed in danger to the point of starting a rebellion. Absurdity? I guess you really haven't read the novels about a high medieval world with season that last decades,  dragons, assassins who can change their face, blood,fire,ice and tree magic, not-elves, ice demons, poison beatles, magic swords, networked trees, people who are over 120 years old because of those trees and a 14 year old girl who leads a rag tag group of people she met a year earlier on a trek across an inhospitable desert.  After you learn of these developments, the thought of a teenage girl running away with a rock star prince won't seem so absurd 

21 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

We have only one fact here, and that is that Rhaegar, with six companions, at least two and almost certainly six of them heavily armed, accosted Lyanna on the road, and took her to a remote, secret location. 

We have several "facts."   There is Bob's highly slanted view as he never spoke to her about it. We have a kingsguard's  view that contradicts the kidnapping. We have her brother, who fought and killed to get to her, and was with her on her deathbed, who never once thinks about a kidnapping.  We have a maester's tale that says the prince and two of the kingsguard, but he was writing an account for king Bob. So there are many "facts."   If you read the books you will learn them too.

25 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

The very fact that it's armed men vs an unarmed girl suggests abduction, and the choice of the Tower of Joy makes it almost positive.  There is not a single logical reason to go there versus almost anywhere else unless Lyanna is an unwilling victim.

Who says the daughter of the lord paramount and warden of the north was alone and unarmed?  Assumptions galore in here. 
Also, what does a tower in the dornish marches have to do with anything? He could have taken her to Dragonstone, or King's landing. 
So, before you bring logic into a fantasy novel, be sure you are aware of what logic is and how to apply it in a literary setting. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Self kidnapping is physically impossible by definition.
as per the wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping
"In criminal law, kidnapping is the unlawful asportation and confinement of a person against his or her will"

So, the betrothal was a sacred contract, yes, and wars were fought over them, yes, but because she went of her own free will, it it impossible for it to be a kidnapping. 

So you're telling me that if my eleven-year-old voluntarily jumps in the back of a van on the way home from school and never tries to flee, that's not kidnapping? 

[TMIFairy]

10 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So you're telling me that if my eleven-year-old voluntarily jumps in the back of a van on the way home from school and never tries to flee, that's not kidnapping? 

If Rheagar is in the van, then no.

[insert sarcasm dripping emoticon :)]

 

[Dorian Martell's son]

19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

So you're telling me that if my eleven-year-old voluntarily jumps in the back of a van on the way home from school and never tries to flee, that's not kidnapping? 

Correct.  There would be a number of charges the van driver could face but if nothing improprietous happens to your eleven year old then kidnapping would not be one of them. Next scenario? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 hours ago, TMIFairy said:

If Rheagar is in the van, then no.

[insert sarcasm dripping emoticon :)]

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Never mind. 

[Graydon Hicks]

let me jump this thread back to the whit if, rather than if rhaegar and lynna was kidnapping, rape, or complicit. would rhaegar have been a better king? i vote yes. and certainly better than robert. i think he would have at least been more attentive to the administration of the realm than robert, and far less likely to debauchery.