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DarkBastard

Plot Holes - Why...Maybe.

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There has been so much criticism over the plot holes (myself included) and we all know last night's episode took that to the extreme.  I put myself into the shoes of the writers, and the shoes of the author to try to determine why...

With the books yet unwritten, if I were the author I would be concerned over the finality of exposing every detail via the television show.  Granted, the books have sooo much content that isn't covered in the show, but the end game is obviously pretty critical.  The books have provided the show writers with the main plot points for most of the journey, leaving out some of the tidbits that book readers know filled the gaps but were not deemed "essential" to the show's story.  

Now that we are beyond the published works the role is reversing a little bit.  GRRM has provided the general agenda for the end game, but his tidbits are no longer being provided (either by design or by default) and the show is leaving those things to him, to his books to provide answers.

We know GRRM and DB/DW have a good relationship and mutual respect, do you think this is a nod back to Martin...giving him the opportunity to interpret the events more succinctly through TWOW/ADOS?

I say that because as a reader and watcher, as much as I loved the episode last night I wanted to know everything about how that played out.  I was satisfied on one hand and still craving on the other.  Is that their intent?  I cannot just dismiss this as "shitty writing" as so many are claiming.  The holes are disruptive, but the writing is still as good as ever.  These men are not idiots and are certainly not incompetent...there has to be an explanation and this is the one that makes the most sense to me.

Thoughts?

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Honestly, it seems to me that many plot flaws could have been avoided without using more time than what they had at their disposal. 

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Plot holes, just a few off the top of my bald head:

Major:

1) Have the Unsullied forgotten how to march? It is not far from where they are to where Dany is, both in south.

2) Have the Dornish forgotten how to march? Same.

3) In what freakin' GRRM world, or historical one, would Dany have just left King's Landing instead of laying siege.

4) How did Jamie go so far under water and then go so far in heavy metal armor?

Minor:

1) Jon comes to the wall on a horse, freezing in wet clothes. What do they do? Take him to a ship offshore before they take his clothes off. WTF!

2) Really CONVENIENT that killing one WW killed all but one wight.

3) Throwing a stone does not mean ice will support a wight, or much else.

4) Being bit by wight bear should turn you, but it didn't.

5) How dumb are Sansa and Arya - not this dumb and all they have is time to think. I don't think LF would outdo them by so much.

6) Why were all Jamie's troops just hanging out beyond the safety of KL, wouldn't they go inside, where they live?

And more...

Edited by GrapefruitPerrier

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9 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Honestly, it seems to me that many plot flaws could have been avoided without using more time than what they had at their disposal. 

Agree, this story had ten seasons of ten episodes and why they don't use them is beyond me.

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2 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

Agree, this story had ten seasons of ten episodes and why they don't use them is beyond me.

Business sense coupled with the fact that the show runners and actors almost certainly didn't want to do 10 seasons.

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2 minutes ago, Ser Gareth said:

Business sense coupled with the fact that the show runners and actors almost certainly didn't want to do 10 seasons.

Very true, it's a business decision to do 8 seasons, nothing more than that. 

One plot hole I know is just the writers running out of time is Theon at Dragonstone.  He arrived there in 704, and Daenarys has been there since 705, but they have not talked at all about the iron born fleet being destroyed or what they'll do about Yara.

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14 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

Honestly, it seems to me that many plot flaws could have been avoided without using more time than what they had at their disposal. 

The biggest plot flaw of all is from the books and carried over to the show.  The pacing is all wrong.  It went completely belly up after the abandonment of the five year plan (and given where ASOS finished a 5 year gap was a truly terrible idea) and the story went from being climatic to a complete stop.

I have often wondered whether D&D would have pressed ahead with the show had they had the opportunity to read ADWD first.

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Just now, Ser Gareth said:

The biggest plot flaw of all is from the books and carried over to the show.  The pacing is all wrong.  It went completely belly up after the abandonment of the five year plan (and given where ASOS finished a 5 year gap was a truly terrible idea) and the story went from being climatic to a complete stop.

I have often wondered whether D&D would have pressed ahead with the show had they had the opportunity to read ADWD first.

The author told them the ending at the beginning, when he did the deal with HBO.  Certainly back in 2007, I'm sure he told them ADWD was going to be out in a few months, instead of 4 more years, but I don't see why Dance would have changed their decision, LOL, it's not that bad.  No one probably predicted the author would fail to finish Winds or the rest of the series, since he himself was saying until season 6 that he would stay ahead.  But, there is no need to excuse the mountains of show plotholes since they started introducing plotholes as soon as they went off book back in season 4, that those holes have become larger and larger is not GRRM fault.

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2 hours ago, DarkBastard said:

There has been so much criticism over the plot holes (myself included) and we all know last night's episode took that to the extreme.  I put myself into the shoes of the writers, and the shoes of the author to try to determine why...

With the books yet unwritten, if I were the author I would be concerned over the finality of exposing every detail via the television show.  Granted, the books have sooo much content that isn't covered in the show, but the end game is obviously pretty critical.  The books have provided the show writers with the main plot points for most of the journey, leaving out some of the tidbits that book readers know filled the gaps but were not deemed "essential" to the show's story.  

Now that we are beyond the published works the role is reversing a little bit.  GRRM has provided the general agenda for the end game, but his tidbits are no longer being provided (either by design or by default) and the show is leaving those things to him, to his books to provide answers.

We know GRRM and DB/DW have a good relationship and mutual respect, do you think this is a nod back to Martin...giving him the opportunity to interpret the events more succinctly through TWOW/ADOS?

I say that because as a reader and watcher, as much as I loved the episode last night I wanted to know everything about how that played out.  I was satisfied on one hand and still craving on the other.  Is that their intent?  I cannot just dismiss this as "shitty writing" as so many are claiming.  The holes are disruptive, but the writing is still as good as ever.  These men are not idiots and are certainly not incompetent...there has to be an explanation and this is the one that makes the most sense to me.

Thoughts?

I agree with you in the sense that I think GRRM gave them a rough outline of how it ends. I think ASOIAF is going to be a fairly complex ending (or lots of endings I should say) and they are going to simplify it. I think this simplification process is part of the problem. They have to merge all these lines (or some of the lines) into one or two story lines, that and the rushed timeline, is hurting them bad. It makes things not feel organic, it makes actions feel like they are not what the character would do and it makes dialog very clunky. 

I think D&D were pretty darn good at writing the books into show, I think they rushed some things but that's just me wanting to savor everything and get more detail, but I get why they did it, it makes sense. I don't think they are good, or even decent, at writing original story based off the books. Last night was a fun action sequence, but it didn't make sense and it doesn't hold true to the books. To me that's what is infuriating. I rewatched season 1 and the natural progression and the bonds formed between characters, it was amazing to see and felt right to me. They tried doing it last night with the group north of the wall talking, and it all felt forced, not organic, like they had talking points they had to get through and just wanted to touch on those points then quickly move on.
The actions made early on in the show (season 1 stuff) effected the characters down the road. You realize that the outcome for Ned and Rob was always going to be the same because the choices they made in the show/books were their choices, there was no other option. Now it feels like things happen to these characters because the show wants it to happen. They don't do what would be natural for the character, which if they want to make changes to how a character would act, that's fine, but you have to build up to that, it can't be this sudden jarring thing.

In my opinion, and this is just my opinion so take it or leave it, but I think the show runners have lost interest. They just want to get through this but in the process want to just have shocking big moments and crashing the internet scenes or w/e. They don't care for a good, well thought out story. Maybe your explanation is the right one, I sure don't know. But to me, it seems like they don't care anymore. 

Lastly, I will give D&D this one thing. They are trying to finish a story that's been in the works for 20 some years, trying to make an ending that has taken GRRM a long time to so far not be able to do and are trying to do it in a few months. It's a lot to ask from someone. There was no way they would ever be able to make something as good as GRRM writing a book then them turning that to show, it is impossible. I was hoping for better than this, but they were given a tough assignment.

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16 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

4) Being bit by wight bear should turn you, but it didn't.

I agree with everything you listed and I was insanely frustrated with the episode.  Just wanted to check on this point though - I didn't think that this worked like the walking dead, as in being a wight isn't like a transferrable disease.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

The author told them the ending at the beginning, when he did the deal with HBO.  Certainly back in 2007, I'm sure he told them ADWD was going to be out in a few months, instead of 4 more years, but I don't see why Dance would have changed their decision, LOL, it's not that bad.  No one probably predicted the author would fail to finish Winds or the rest of the series, since he himself was saying until season 6 that he would stay ahead.  But, there is no need to excuse the mountains of show plotholes since they started introducing plotholes as soon as they went off book back in season 4, that those holes have become larger and larger is not GRRM fault.

I personally think ADWD is the weakest book in the series by far.  The style of writing, the personality changes of some major characters etc.  The fact the plot barely advanced in the entire book.  The introduction of a ton of new supporting characters.  It should have been a major red flag not to produce the show IMO.

AFFC was slow but still in keeping (Iron Born nonsense aside) with the general feel of ASOIAF.  ADWD took the series on a completely new tangent.  Neither book could be translated well to TV.

And GRRM may have told them the ending, but as he keeps telling everyone he is a gardener and the way to the ending hasn't yet been worked out.  And still hasn't been worked out.  So the show runners had to come up with their own ideas.  Which are vastly inferior to those of GRRM version books 1 to 3.  To be fair to D&D their stuff is on par with "Reek, Reek it rhymes with where do whores go?  Oh look, Tyrion's bumped into Jorah, what are the chances?  Oh and Penny, who jousted at Joffrey's wedding!  Such a small world!  Oh, and how he's riding a pig!  And who is that man with an eye patch and blue lips?".

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35 minutes ago, Styl7 said:

Apart from teleport can you mention the rest plot holes?

A lot of speculation out there, but just from last nights episode off the top of my head:

 

Why did the skeletal wights explode but the partially fleshed one survive (when the white walker was killed)?

Where did the chains come from?

Why didn't the Night King kill Drogon?

Why did Sansa get a letter to go south?

Why isn't Bran providing more guidance?

If the Night King was waiting for the dragons (as most speculate), why did he attack when the rock was thrown?

How did Benjen know Jon was there and in trouble?

 

Granted, some of these may be answered in the coming episodes, but I doubt all of them.  And that's just from this week.

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30 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

4) Being bit by wight bear should turn you, but it didn't.

Is this a joke?  This isn't Walking Dead. That's not how wights work. 

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30 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

4) Being bit by wight bear should turn you, but it didn't.

 

I think you're confusing genres.  Everything else is spot-on though!

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17 minutes ago, Lucius Lovejoy said:

I agree with everything you listed and I was insanely frustrated with the episode.  Just wanted to check on this point though - I didn't think that this worked like the walking dead, as in being a wight isn't like a transferrable disease.

Could be, I have not rewatched the earlier seasons on how the men died North of the wall and turned in the ice cells (later killed by fire after trying to kill Mormont the elder). I have asked a few podcasters who seem to know everything and even they do not agree on how wights are made (touched by WW, vicinity of WW, bitten by wight, etc.)

Maybe somebody wants to do the research...

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32 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Is this a joke?  This isn't Walking Dead. That's not how wights work. 

It is unclear how wights work. Is it another plot hole? Who knows ,but it certainly does not require the touch of a WW at the time you turn. See above.

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38 minutes ago, DarkBastard said:

I think you're confusing genres.  Everything else is spot-on though!

I am not, this is from a Wiki of Ice and Fire, which I will take over many of the amateur articles out today:

"Wights are dead men or creatures raised up by the Others, seemingly when touched by the cold that accompanies them.[1] Anyone who falls against the Others must be burned, or else the dead will rise again as their thralls. Fear of their own dead becoming wights leads the free folk to burn them."

So, anyone killed by an Other should change - Other are WW - but is season one the Benjen troop changed in the ice cells, much later. Were each of them touched by a WW? Based on last night they should have changed immediately then. Why the wait, and what makes you so sure being killed by a wight does not make you a wight. Book or show sources please!!!!! I may well be wrong, but this is not a simple question. 

Edited by GrapefruitPerrier

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8 minutes ago, GrapefruitPerrier said:

It is unclear how wights work. Is it another plot hole? Who knows ,but it certainly does not require the touch of a WW at the time you turn. See above.

We know wightdom isn't a disease transmitted via bites/scratches.  As for why the NK didn't just raise Viserion like he did the dead at hardhome...  no idea. It bugged me too.  

Would have been much cooler, and not require the plot chain, to have zombieViserion burst up from the ice roaring instead of being dragged out.  

Just a string of odd choices. 

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