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Skills

Didn't get the premise of the truce

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I realize it was ridiculous to begin with, having to capture a wight and all, etc.

But wouldn't a "temporary armistice" have been a better term?  Assuming they were/are able to defeat the WW, what was the plan after?  To resume the war for the throne again?  The way they kept talking about it, they made it seem like a long-term truce...which makes no sense.  

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Yeah, I thought the same. And I'm assuming Cersei was always going to betray everybody else, which meant she planned to hold back her forces, and defeat whatever is left of the armies that fought the NK, thus eventually being queen of the seven kingdoms.

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11 hours ago, Skills said:

But wouldn't a "temporary armistice" have been a better term?

What distinction are you trying to make here?

A truce is what you get when you sign a temporary armistice, by definition.

A truce is a short-term cessation of fighting, usually for a specifically agreed-upon period of time. An armistice is a formal agreement to cease fighting. A temporary armistice is a formal agreement to temporarily cease fighting.

Also, the show has used both terms multiple times.

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The proposal was always to stop fighting each other until the Night King was defeated, and it was implied that once that was accomplished, all bets were off. Of course the whole thing was a fool's hope to begin with, as you say.

Even Cersei when she (falsely) promised to send her armies to the war in the North acknowledged that it was a temporary thing.

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The proposal was not for truce but to join forces.  They didnt fetch a wight to tell cersei to please stahp.  They fetched it ask her to join forces!

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Just now, Hoo said:

The proposal was not for truce but to join forces.  They didnt fetch a wight to tell cersei to please stahp.  They fetched it ask her to join forces!

No, they didn't. The proposal was to stop the fighting and pull back the various armies (not sure which armies they're talking about since we have seen nothing this season except the same armies teleporting all over the place).

Joining forces was Cersei's "too good to refuse" offer which she never meant to honor. 

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4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

No, they didn't. The proposal was to stop the fighting and pull back the various armies (not sure which armies they're talking about since we have seen nothing this season except the same armies teleporting all over the place).

Joining forces was Cersei's "too good to refuse" offer which she never meant to honor. 

 Cersei did not honor it.  That's a separate issue.  The proposal failed because of Jon, because of Cersei, but that was the proposal, the goal.

The meeting was to join the armies.  The wight was needed as strong persuasion since Dany already attacked, invaded, burned and killed in Westeros.  It's hard to negotiate joint forces after that.

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3 minutes ago, Hoo said:

The meeting was to join the armies.

Either you or me needs to watch that scene again, because I'm pretty sure the initial proposal was simply for a truce, basically for Cersei to leave Dany (and her territories) alone while she dealt with the threat in the North.

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Jon kept saying for the whole season we need everyone in Westeros to defeat army of the dead.

Cersei pledged her armies in support after talking to Tyrion.

She reneged on joint forces, not on truce.  That's why Jamie left.

4 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Either you or me needs to watch that scene again, because I'm pretty sure the initial proposal was simply for a truce, basically for Cersei to leave Dany (and her territories) alone while she dealt with the threat in the North.

 

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7 minutes ago, Hoo said:

 

 Cersei did not honor it.  That's a separate issue.  The proposal failed because of Jon, because of Cersei, but that was the proposal, the goal.

The meeting was to join the armies.  The wight was needed as strong persuasion since Dany already attacked, invaded, burned and killed in Westeros.  It's hard to negotiate joint forces after that.

It didn't fail because of Jon. Euron had already left the meeting to go fetch the Golden Company by the time Jon was asked to not join the Southern war after the Night King was dealt with. Cersei was already playing games and deceiving before the meeting ever started. Jon was nothing but a convenient scapegoat.

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15 minutes ago, Hoo said:

She reneged on joint forces, not on truce.

That remains to be seen. I see no reason why she would break one part of the agreement but not the other (unless it was in her interest, and it isn't if she doesn't buy into the War for the Dawn thing).

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I remain convinced that the initial proposal (plan) was simply to cease hostilities and pull back, not to join forces.

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Cersei is not playing games.  She is defending the throne.

She is in war with Dany, a throne contender, who already invaded and atacked.  There is nothing wrong with getting the sellswords.  It's well estsblished that Euron is usesless with his ships for the battle agsinst the wights.

Euron lied by saying, Im outta here.  So what?

Dany could've left some forces on Esos.  No biggy, espacially if they are useless in the upcoming battle, like ships.  That's strategy.

 

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32 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

That remains to be seen. I see no reason why she would break one part of the agreement but not the other (unless it was in her interest, and it isn't if she doesn't buy into the War for the Dawn thing).

Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I remain convinced that the initial proposal (plan) was simply to cease hostilities and pull back, not to join forces.

Dany basically told her she will stop the attacks in return for Cersei's support.  Maybe that's why you think truce was the goal.  That's an unreasonable interpretation of events.

 

There were some nonsensical things in the show, like Khal Drogo dying of a skin deep cut. We cannot interpret that as reasonable, does not stick.  This is not one of those, Dany did not ask for truce.

 

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4 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Dany basically told her she will stop the attacks in return for Cersei's support.  Maybe that's why you think truce was the goal.  That's an unreasonable interpretation of events.

Since you persist.

Cersei: If my brother Jaime informs me correctly, you're asking me for a truce?
Dany: Yes. That's all.
Cersei: That's all? Pull back my armies while you go on your monster hunt

That's it, I'm done, if you still think they were asking for Cersei's armies there's nothing I can do to convince you. Yes, she later fake-offers them, but that was never the goal, because it was considered entirely impossible to get, whereas the truce was seen as at least worth trying for.
 

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2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Since you persist.

Cersei: If my brother Jaime informs me correctly, you're asking me for a truce?
Dany: Yes. That's all.
Cersei: That's all? Pull back my armies while you go on your monster hunt

That's it, I'm done, if you still think they were asking for Cersei's armies there's nothing I can do to convince you. Yes, she later fake-offers them, but that was never the goal, because it was considered entirely impossible to get, whereas the truce was seen as at least worth trying for.
 

Correct.

It is made very clear in both this episode, and in past ones, that what Dany and her alliance are asking, is just for a temporary truce, and not for Cersei to join them in the North. There is never, in any scene, any mention, word, or implication, of asking of the Lannisters to march North. To the contrary it is clear both in the original meeting where the Wight Hunt plan is drawn up, as well as in the meetings with Tyrion and Jaime, and the subsequent one between Jaime and Cersei, that the proposal is only for a temporary truce.

In this very episode, when Tyrion goes to meet with Cersei and Jon and Dany are discussing, when Dany talks of the implications of this meeting failing, she tells Jon something along the lines 'How do I know that as soon as I march North, Cersei will not go out and take back all my gains?'. It is not 'What will we do if the Lannister's don't agree to march North', or 'What will we do if we do not join forces?'. When Cersei returns, her speech is 'I will not pull my forces back. I will march my forces to the North to join with you, and I hope you will remember this when the fighting is over' - that is, I will not just do what you ask of me, I will go a step further, and do something that is above and beyond what you requested.

The whole negotiation is part of why everything about this season is so frustrating, because all the events that happened circle around this forced meeting.

First of all, why would Cersei agree to this, and what do they really expect of her? If a foreign country was at war with your own country, and threatening to overthrow the government and take over, if you were to have negotiations were they came up with the proposal 'You know, we're going to go fight another war to the North, but pull back your own armies and don't prepare to defend yourself until we're done and we come back to fight' - do you think your government would be representing your interests and your country well by agreeing with this? Why? Out of a sense of fair play? If Dany wants to go march North, it is Cersei's duty and responsibility both to her family and her kingdom, to prepare as best as possible to defeat Dany later on, given that Dany freely admits that she will come up and continue the war.

All Dany's alliance can realistically expect of Cersei is not to come and fight them in the North when they pull back and nothing more, which they can already achieve since the Lannisters would never overextend to the North anyway at this point. So when Cersei walks out, and everybody acts as if they're doomed, the whole thing feels contrived, because there's nothing really that they are actually expecting of Cersei. When Cersei asks Jon to stay neutral after the war, and then gets angry when he does not do so, it feels contrived, because Cersei will have to fight the King in the North anyway, as she does not recognize the Northern kingdom - and as it is obvious that there is ALREADY an alliance between the North and Dany, since they have agreed to fight together in the North.

When Jaime gets angry with Brienne while they walk out because Jon has not agreed to remain neutral, it feels contrived for the same reason. When Jaime gets angry with Cersei later on, he claims that this is not about the Great Houses, it is about the battle between the living and the dead, and if they don't march North, whoever wins in the North comes back and kills them. But this is an argument that stood when Cersei originally walked out of the meeting. Why was he not angry with Cersei then, and was angry about Jon's bending the knee to Daenerys (when, again, it was already obvious that the North and Dany had an alliance)?

What would make more sense, is if Dany came with a peace offer, offering concessions to Cersei, in exchange for her surrender, and joining up with the expedition North. My own proposal was that Dany offers to keep the Lannisters as wardens of the North, give them Highgarden as amends for the murder of Joffrey, and perhaps agree to a marriage between the next Lannister and the next Targaryen heir. The show could then show us Cersei refuse out of pride, before agreeing to the proposal (but ultimately betraying it).

But, what the showrunners want to do is give us fake drama - they want Cersei to be the one to propose marching to the North, so that she looks more of a villain when she betrays Dany. Then they can present the plot as 'Dany never asked you to surrender, and was willing to allow you not to fight in the North, but instead you misled, then betrayed her'. But the logic of the plot just collapses, as do all the contrived plot point in the season. The show is grasping at straws to explain why Dany does not attack King's Landing when she could easily have taken the city in all the time it has taken for the expedition North to take place, even as it is clear that there are many ways to take the city without burning it down - and of course the entire nonsensical plot of capturing a Wight. 

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8 hours ago, Hoo said:

Jon kept saying for the whole season we need everyone in Westeros to defeat army of the dead.

Cersei pledged her armies in support after talking to Tyrion.

She reneged on joint forces, not on truce.  That's why Jamie left.

 

She clearly reneged on both.  Not only is she not sending her forces up North (well, remains to be seen if Jamie can rustle up a few men willing to join him), but she also stated she is awaiting the GC to take back parts of the kingdom she has lost.  That doesn't sound like any truce or cease fire.  While they may not go up and attack the North directly, they are clearly taking an aggressive position.  

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5 hours ago, Iotun said:

The show is grasping at straws to explain why Dany does not attack King's Landing when she could easily have taken the city in all the time it has taken for the expedition North to take place, even as it is clear that there are many ways to take the city without burning it down - and of course the entire nonsensical plot of capturing a Wight. 

I disagree with this last part.  Maybe early in S7, sure.  But not now.  It's one thing to lay siege to and conquer a city - but then what?  You would have to leave forces behind to rebuild, govern, defend.  They clearly need ALL of their forces up North.  Simply laying waste to KL and then leaving to go North would leave the city in chaos.  And committing any time to KL puts them behind because even a quick victory (how long would that take?  A few days at best?) allows the NK and his army to gain ground on them.  

Agree this was bungled, but not in the finale, but rather from the start of the season.  Their plan of dragging their feet put them into position in the first place.  

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1 hour ago, Skills said:

She clearly reneged on both.  Not only is she not sending her forces up North (well, remains to be seen if Jamie can rustle up a few men willing to join him), but she also stated she is awaiting the GC to take back parts of the kingdom she has lost.  That doesn't sound like any truce or cease fire.  While they may not go up and attack the North directly, they are clearly taking an aggressive position.  

Cersei mentioned she'll stay put and let them kill of each other up North.  She will not participate in fighting against the wights. 

That's a strategic move.  Cersei's army is unaffected, while Dany's army and the North suffer casualties.  (That's also why truce was not a goal for Dany, because truce leads to exactly this problem.  While Dany's fighting and dying up North, Cersei is rebuilding.  That cannot be.)

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1 hour ago, Skills said:

I disagree with this last part.  Maybe early in S7, sure.  But not now.  It's one thing to lay siege to and conquer a city - but then what?  You would have to leave forces behind to rebuild, govern, defend.  They clearly need ALL of their forces up North.  Simply laying waste to KL and then leaving to go North would leave the city in chaos.  And committing any time to KL puts them behind because even a quick victory (how long would that take?  A few days at best?) allows the NK and his army to gain ground on them.  

Agree this was bungled, but not in the finale, but rather from the start of the season.  Their plan of dragging their feet put them into position in the first place.  

There are many options you could have to overtake the city:

1) Yes, attack the city outright. Once you take it, leave Tyrion and Varys in charge, with a small group of forces. But also

2) Sneak an elite team in to assassinate Cercei. Tyrion managed to sneak into the Red Keep dungeons with no problem.

3) Arrange for an internal overthrow of the queen. Park your army outside, do a few flyovers with your dragons, and for most of the city watchmen and army commanders, the writing should be on the wall. Pay off a few street priests to chart preaching that Daenerys has come to take vengeance on the sins of the current regime. The smallfolk should hate Cersei, and there must be a great many Lannister and ex-Tyrell commanders who would be willing to betray Cersei in exchange for lordship over Highgarden. Meanwhile Tyrion can always claim that he IS the rightful heir to Casterly Rock, as the only surviving son who is not bound by oath ro renounce his claims. Sure, it's a dubious claim, but I bet a lot of Lannister lords would switch over, given the prospect of being roasted by Dragonfire. Cersei keeps saying that without Tywin they've been 'left to the vultures', and yet amazingly she manages to maintain the loyalty of a realm that should have abandoned her the moment Dany set foot on Westeros. Sound like the kind of scheme that Varys and Tyrion should be able to pull off quite easily.

4) Oh, and one final option - isn't Dany the one who once conquered a city by murdering its rulers who had come to visit her under false pretenses of carrying out a commercial transaction, arranged to burn the Dothraki horselords alive during what they thought was a meeting for discussion, and murdered the leaders of an army who came to her under the false pretenses of carrying out negotiations? Why doesn't she burn Cersei at the dragonpit and be done with it? It would certainly fit with her tactics up to this point.

 

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