When jon became lord commander who put the bird in the...

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The ones in the West at least.

Isn't Qarth in the East?

3 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And besides that we know that glass candles are not even the only method of dream infiltration. See: Bloodraven.

I'm not sure why this is relevant. I didn't say BR could not infiltrate dreams. I said this dream (Dany's) could not have been Quaithe through glass candles. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

24 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

It does not seem to be a prophetic dragon dream like when Daeron saw a dragon fall on top of Dunk.

Dany's dream (the dream being discussed) is clearly being prophetic of Drogon.

[Lost Melnibonean]

27 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

The ones in the West at least. And besides that we know that glass candles are not even the only method of dream infiltration. See: Bloodraven.

Bran even sees dragons in the east in his coma dream:

It does not seem to be a prophetic dragon dream like when Daeron saw a dragon fall on top of Dunk.

As to this...

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He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

I believe it's a foreshadowing of Daenerys's wee dragonlets. I don't think we should read this (or any other) vision-dream literaly. We were told six chapters earlier that the three egg macguffins were from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. Asshai lays to the east, from where the sun rises. Since a new day is born when the sun rises, we can say that something is about to be born when it stirs beneath the sunrise. I would expect that that the dragons, or at least one of them, will be instrumental in the coming Battle for the Dawn. 

And consider the context of the that part of the vision-dream...

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"I'm afraid . . . "

LOOK DOWN!

Bran looked down, and felt his insides turn to water. The ground was rushing up at him now. The whole world was spread out below him, a tapestry of white and brown and green. He could see everything so clearly that for a moment he forgot to be afraid. He could see the whole realm, and everyone in it.

Ah, I feel a vision coming on...

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He saw Winterfell as the eagles see it, the tall towers looking squat and stubby from above, the castle walls just lines in the dirt. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. He saw his brother Robb, taller and stronger than he remembered him, practicing swordplay in the yard with real steel in his hand. He saw Hodor, the simple giant from the stables, carrying an anvil to Mikken's forge, hefting it onto his shoulder as easily as another man might heft a bale of hay. At the heart of the godswood, the great white weirwood brooded over its reflection in the black pool, its leaves rustling in a chill wind. When it felt Bran watching, it lifted its eyes from the still waters and stared back at him knowingly. 

This sets the stage for ASOIAF. Luwin is frowning because he sees, as he takes astronomical notes, that winter is coming. Isn't that what we read about, winter coming, in the Prologue to Game? Just three chapters earlier, Catelyn saw that Robb was wearing real steal because Winterfell would soon need every sword. Apparently, Mikken is forging those swords. Hodor carrying the anvil is a foreshadowing of Hodor carrying Bran. And this vision of the weirwood is our first hint of the weirnet. 

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He looked east, and saw a galley racing across the waters of the Bite. He saw his mother sitting alone in a cabin, looking at a bloodstained knife on a table in front of her, as the rowers pulled at their oars and Ser Rodrik leaned across a rail, shaking and heaving. A storm was gathering ahead of them, a vast dark roaring lashed by lightning, but somehow they could not see it.

He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.

He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the JadeSea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.

This is the basic plot of the first main conflict, the Lannister-Stark conflict that evolves into the War of the Five Kings. His mother is heading into a storm and taking House Stark with her. There is tension between Eddard and Robert, and between Sansa and Arya. The first two shadows are recognizable in an instant as the Hound and Jaime,. The third is a complete mystery, and gradually we are led to wonder whether it's Gregor, but Gregor never really fits. Then, at the end of Storm, when Lysa tells all, and Petyr gives her a shove out the Moon Door, we realize with clarity who the big bad really is.

Meanwhile, even as the first main conflict begins, we have the second main conflict being developed across the Narrow Sea, where Daenerys travels from the Free Cities into the Dothraki Sea, and on to Vaes Dothrak, even as the Dragon calls to the Mother of Dragons, and the dragonlets hatch from the eggs that came from Asshai at the end of Game. And as the first main conflict fades, and the second main conflict comes to the fore, we learn that Daenerys is not the only dragon--there has been another, stirring beneath the sunrise. By the end of Dance, he has arrived in Westeros, and we know that Daenerys will come to dance. 

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Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

And finally, here we have the third main conflict, the one that was introduced in the prologue and echoed at the beginning of these visions, with Luwin studying the sky and frowning. 

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Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

 

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to this...

I believe it's a foreshadowing of Daenerys's wee dragonlets. I don't think we should read this (or any other) vision-dream literaly. We were told six chapters earlier that the three egg macguffins were from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. Asshai lays to the east, from where the sun rises. Since a new day is born when the sun rises, we can say that something is about to be born when it stirs beneath the sunrise. I would expect that that the dragons, or at least one of them, will be instrumental in the coming Battle for the Dawn. 

And consider the context of the that part of the vision-dream...

Ah, I feel a vision coming on...

This sets the stage for ASOIAF. Luwin is frowning because he sees, as he takes astronomical notes, that winter is coming. Isn't that what we read about, winter coming, in the Prologue to Game? Just three chapters earlier, Catelyn saw that Robb was wearing real steal because Winterfell would soon need every sword. Apparently, Mikken is forging those swords. Hodor carrying the anvil is a foreshadowing of Hodor carrying Bran. And this vision of the weirwood is our first hint of the weirnet. 

This is the basic plot of the first main conflict, the Lannister-Stark conflict that evolves into the War of the Five Kings. His mother is heading into a storm and taking House Stark with her. There is tension between Eddard and Robert, and between Sansa and Arya. The first two shadows are recognizable in an instant as the Hound and Jaime,. The third is a complete mystery, and gradually we are led to wonder whether it's Gregor, but Gregor never really fits. Then, at the end of Storm, when Lysa tells all, and Petyr gives her a shove out the Moon Door, we realize with clarity who the big bad really is.

Meanwhile, even as the first main conflict begins, we have the second main conflict being developed across the Narrow Sea, where Daenerys travels from the Free Cities into the Dothraki Sea, and on to Vaes Dothrak, even as the Dragon calls to the Mother of Dragons, and the dragonlets hatch from the eggs that came from Asshai at the end of Game. And as the first main conflict fades, and the second main conflict comes to the fore, we learn that Daenerys is not the only dragon--there has been another, stirring beneath the sunrise. By the end of Dance, he has arrived in Westeros, and we know that Daenerys will come to dance. 

And finally, here we have the third main conflict, the one that was introduced in the prologue and echoed at the beginning of these visions, with Luwin studying the sky and frowning. 

 

Nice interpretations there.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Isn't Qarth in the East?

I'm not sure why this is relevant. I didn't say BR could not infiltrate dreams. I said this dream (Dany's) could not have been Quaithe through glass candles. 

Qarth is not really in the East. It is right in the middle, the bridge between East and West. I'm not totally sure what Dany meant, but I think everything on the East side of the Bone Mountains may be what she was referring to as the "East".

Yeah, that's fair, my point was not really relevant to glass candles.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

5 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Dany's dream (the dream being discussed) is clearly being prophetic of Drogon.

Prophetic of Drogon... doing what? Being born? Burning Dany alive? It is definitely less clear than, for instance, the dream that predicted the death of Baelor.

I was originally making a point about glass candles, and this Dany dream was probably a bad example for that. But regardless, I think 100% of prophetic dreams are sent by nefarious actors, because I don't think that it is possible to see into the future. So if not glass candles, someone somehow is sending dreams to Dany to change her behavior and actions.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As to this...

I believe it's a foreshadowing of Daenerys's wee dragonlets. I don't think we should read this (or any other) vision-dream literaly. We were told six chapters earlier that the three egg macguffins were from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. Asshai lays to the east, from where the sun rises. Since a new day is born when the sun rises, we can say that something is about to be born when it stirs beneath the sunrise. I would expect that that the dragons, or at least one of them, will be instrumental in the coming Battle for the Dawn. 

And consider the context of the that part of the vision-dream...

Ah, I feel a vision coming on...

This sets the stage for ASOIAF. Luwin is frowning because he sees, as he takes astronomical notes, that winter is coming. Isn't that what we read about, winter coming, in the Prologue to Game? Just three chapters earlier, Catelyn saw that Robb was wearing real steal because Winterfell would soon need every sword. Apparently, Mikken is forging those swords. Hodor carrying the anvil is a foreshadowing of Hodor carrying Bran. And this vision of the weirwood is our first hint of the weirnet. 

This is the basic plot of the first main conflict, the Lannister-Stark conflict that evolves into the War of the Five Kings. His mother is heading into a storm and taking House Stark with her. There is tension between Eddard and Robert, and between Sansa and Arya. The first two shadows are recognizable in an instant as the Hound and Jaime,. The third is a complete mystery, and gradually we are led to wonder whether it's Gregor, but Gregor never really fits. Then, at the end of Storm, when Lysa tells all, and Petyr gives her a shove out the Moon Door, we realize with clarity who the big bad really is.

Meanwhile, even as the first main conflict begins, we have the second main conflict being developed across the Narrow Sea, where Daenerys travels from the Free Cities into the Dothraki Sea, and on to Vaes Dothrak, even as the Dragon calls to the Mother of Dragons, and the dragonlets hatch from the eggs that came from Asshai at the end of Game. And as the first main conflict fades, and the second main conflict comes to the fore, we learn that Daenerys is not the only dragon--there has been another, stirring beneath the sunrise. By the end of Dance, he has arrived in Westeros, and we know that Daenerys will come to dance. 

And finally, here we have the third main conflict, the one that was introduced in the prologue and echoed at the beginning of these visions, with Luwin studying the sky and frowning. 

 

You might be totally right. I have little confidence in this. But I do think that Bran was literally seeing dragons, because the other things he sees are in present day and are mostly literal. Luwin is literally frowning and taking notes, Robb is literally wearing steel, Cat is literally on a boat traveling to KL, etc. I think it would be a bit odd if Bran saw a bunch of visions of things happening presently but then one vision of Dany's future dragons. And Dany's dragons definitely weren't born in Asshai. Sure maybe you could say the eggs are from Asshai (though I don't think they are), but the eggs are not currently in Asshai at the time of the vision, so again it just seems a little inconsistent with the rest of the things Bran sees.

ETA: Also, the people who first tell us dragons are dead everywhere are Irri and Jhiqui, and I do not trust them for a second. They are over-confident and somewhat ignorant Dothraki who have no books and presumably very little knowledge of goings-on outside Dothraki culture.

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Viserys had told her that the last Targaryen dragons had died no more than a century and a half ago, during the reign of Aegon III, who was called the Dragonbane. That did not seem so long ago to Dany. "Everywhere?" she said, disappointed. "Even in the east?" Magic had died in the west when the Doom fell on Valyria and the Lands of the Long Summer, and neither spell-forged steel nor stormsingers nor dragons could hold it back, but Dany had always heard that the east was different. It was said that manticores prowled the islands of the Jade Sea, that basilisks infested the jungles of Yi Ti, that spellsingers, warlocks, and aeromancers practiced their arts openly in Asshai, while shadowbinders and bloodmages worked terrible sorceries in the black of night. Why shouldn't there be dragons too?

"No dragon," Irri said. "Brave men kill them, for dragon terrible evil beasts. It is known."

"It is known," agreed Jhiqui.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Prophetic of Drogon... doing what? Being born? Burning Dany alive? It is definitely less clear than, for instance, the dream that predicted the death of Baelor.

 

I think it is very clearly prophetic of the dragons' birth. The fire represents the fire from Drogo's funeral pyre.

 

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Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

I love how George uses "temper" to describe the fire over Dany, even in a prophetic dream. Where else do we see that word being used...

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think it is very clearly prophetic of the dragons' birth. The fire represents the fire from Drogo's funeral pyre.

I think it could be that. But it is much less clear than the Baelor dream.

Quote

"Did I? Well, it's so. My dreams are not like yours, Ser Duncan. Mine are true. They frighten me. You frighten me. I dreamed of you and a dead dragon, you see. A great beast, huge, with wings so large they could cover this meadow. It had fallen on top of you, but you were alive and the dragon was dead."

So in that dream, dragon = a Targaryen (specifically Baelor), not an actual dragon. Its size seems to represent Baelor's importance, and Baelor literally dies and falls on top of Dunk, just like the dream.

If we assume that you are correct about Dany's dream, then the dragon is literally representing a dragon. And Drogon did not breathe fire on Dany, because she created the fire herself to hatch Drogon. It would definitely be much less straightforward than Daeron's dream. But mayhaps I am just being nitpicky.  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

6 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But mayhaps I am just being nitpicky.  

Haha. I agree with this. 

I am not sure why we need to expect a prophetic dream to line up perfectly with the future reality. Even the dream you are referencing uses symbolism to make it prophetically accurate. 

Dany dreams a black dragon with molten eyes. I would hope you agree this could only be Drogon. Prophetic enough so far, right?

The next part:

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wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. 

The blood is representative of blood from childbirth, i.e. the birth of her dragons.

Quote

and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. 

There has to be a fire in this dream to make it prophetically related to the funeral pyre scene. What better way than to have the fire come out of the dragon?

Quote

She could hear it singing to her. 

Guess who's singing this is? From the funeral pyre scene: 

"Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform. The dusk shimmered as the air itself seemed to liquefy from the heat. Dany heard logs spit and crack. The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller … then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony."

Quote

She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean.

Sounds a lot like: "The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing."

And of course the dream uses cleanse, temper, and scour her clean... She will be changed after the funeral pyre. And you probably already know why George uses "temper".

Quote

and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

You already know the fire pyre was not painful to Dany and that she was changed, strong, new, and fierce afterwards. 

 

 

I think this dream is pretty straight forward of the funeral pyre scene. 

I don't see it as anything other than a "dragon dream". Keep in mind we don't know what exactly Daeron dreamt. We only know the description he gave Dunk. And even the description uses symbolism just like Dany's. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

8 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Haha. I agree with this. 

I am not sure why we need to expect a prophetic dream to line up perfectly with the future reality. Even the dream you are referencing uses symbolism to make it prophetically accurate. 

Dany dreams a black dragon with molten eyes. I would hope you agree this could only be Drogon. Prophetic enough so far, right?

The next part:

The blood is representative of blood from childbirth, i.e. the birth of her dragons.

There has to be a fire in this dream to make it prophetically related to the funeral pyre scene. What better way than to have the fire come out of the dragon?

Guess who's singing this is? From the funeral pyre scene: 

"Mirri Maz Duur began to sing in a shrill, ululating voice. The flames whirled and writhed, racing each other up the platform. The dusk shimmered as the air itself seemed to liquefy from the heat. Dany heard logs spit and crack. The fires swept over Mirri Maz Duur. Her song grew louder, shriller … then she gasped, again and again, and her song became a shuddering wail, thin and high and full of agony."

Sounds a lot like: "The flames writhed before her like the women who had danced at her wedding, whirling and singing and spinning their yellow and orange and crimson veils, fearsome to behold, yet lovely, so lovely, alive with heat. Dany opened her arms to them, her skin flushed and glowing."

And of course the dream uses cleanse, temper, and scour her clean... She will be changed after the funeral pyre. And you probably already know why George uses "temper".

You already know the fire pyre was not painful to Dany and that she was changed, strong, new, and fierce afterwards. 

 

 

I think this dream is pretty straight forward of the funeral pyre scene. 

I don't see it as anything other than a "dragon dream". Keep in mind we don't know what exactly Daeron dreamt. We only know the description he gave Dunk. And even the description uses symbolism just like Dany's. 

I think it is possible you are correct. But again, I don't think anyone has the power to see into the future. I think people only have the power to send visions back into the past. And typically the purpose of this is to change someone's behavior to make them do something they otherwise wouldn't. Jojen is the perfect example of this. He is sent dreams to manipulate him into traveling north on a suicide mission. It is implied that he has seen his own death (probably via sacrifice) but believes there is nothing he can do to change it. He thinks green dreams always come true (Meera disagrees because she is the smart one). But of course, this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because he ultimately makes the decision to go north and seek out his own death.

So whenever we come across suspicious dreams, I ask myself "Who could be sending this dream and why?" And in the case of that Dany dragon dream, the obvious answer is that someone wanted her to not kill herself, which she was about to do. Dany does not think the dream was prophetic. The only people who would interpret it as prophetic are the readers. So while you could interpret it to be a symbolic foretelling of the pyre scene, that wasn't the purpose of the dream. Contrast that with, say, Jojen's vision that the sea will come to WF and Alebelly, Mikken, and Chayle would drown (an extremely straightforward symbolic representation of reality) which both may have had an impact on how many troops Rodrik sent to fight the Ironborn (leaving WF more vulnerable to attack) and helped to convince Bran that green dreams always come true (which is a lie).

Though on the other hand, just to argue your side, I guess you say that Dany did immediately notice the similarity between the dragon in her dream and the colors of Drogon's egg, so maybe this dream - in addition to keeping her from killing herself - factored into her insane decision to put the eggs in the pyre and walk into it. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 9/16/2017 at 2:48 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But again, I don't think anyone has the power to see into the future.

Is it really the power of seeing into the future though? It seems to me they are premonition-like dreams which the Targs/Blackfyres do not know what they mean. The only instance of anyone doing anything about a dragon dream is when the Targaryens moved out of Valyria because of Daenys dream. I would guess this was because the Targs were more knowledgeable about these dreams back before the doom, but that is purely speculation. 

On 9/16/2017 at 2:48 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think people only have the power to send visions back into the past.

What in the text leads you to believe there cannot be premonition-like dragon dreams? There sure seems to be a lot of evidence pointing to dragon dreams being very likely.

On 9/16/2017 at 2:48 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And typically the purpose of this is to change someone's behavior to make them do something they otherwise wouldn't. Jojen is the perfect example of this. He is sent dreams to manipulate him into traveling north on a suicide mission. It is implied that he has seen his own death (probably via sacrifice) but believes there is nothing he can do to change it. He thinks green dreams always come true (Meera disagrees because she is the smart one). But of course, this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because he ultimately makes the decision to go north and seek out his own death.

Are you viewing "greensight" and "dragon dreams" as the same thing? I believe they are very different. I see these ideas as two separate abilities.

Who would have sent Daenys her dream? And how?

Who sent Daeron and Daemon their dreams? Yes, BR was alive for these but he was not hooked up to a tree yet and what would his motivations have been assuming he could do this before going north? Is there anything in the text that points to this as the case?

Yes, BR has the ability to influence dreams but that doesn't mean every premonition-like dream is because of BR or the COTF.

On 9/16/2017 at 2:48 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So whenever we come across suspicious dreams, I ask myself "Who could be sending this dream and why?"

This might be a good idea with green dreams, but I do not believe this applies to dragon dreams.

On 9/16/2017 at 2:48 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Dany does not think the dream was prophetic. The only people who would interpret it as prophetic are the readers.

Exactly, and when thinking more about George's motivations for putting in these dragon dreams they sure make for a convenient method of foreshadowing. 

On 9/16/2017 at 2:48 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So while you could interpret it to be a symbolic foretelling of the pyre scene, that wasn't the purpose of the dream.

I think the purpose of dragon dreams is for the reader to try and figure out what they mean. 

 

On 9/16/2017 at 2:48 PM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Contrast that with, say, Jojen's vision that the sea will come to WF and Alebelly, Mikken, and Chayle would drown (an extremely straightforward symbolic representation of reality) which both may have had an impact on how many troops Rodrik sent to fight the Ironborn (leaving WF more vulnerable to attack) and helped to convince Bran that green dreams always come true (which is a lie).

See above. Different type of dreams, IMO. Different conversation.

 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

If it wasn't Sam who put the raven in the kettle, then it must be Bran . What ? no Bloodraven? It is true Bloodraven is a powerful warg , but his primary interest is Bran , while Bran is constantly thinking about Jon and wasn't it Bran who helped Jon to awaken his warg ability . 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

9 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Is it really the power of seeing into the future though? It seems to me they are premonition-like dreams which the Targs/Blackfyres do not know what they mean. The only instance of anyone doing anything about a dragon dream is when the Targaryens moved out of Valyria because of Daenys dream. I would guess this was because the Targs were more knowledgeable about these dreams back before the doom, but that is purely speculation. 

What in the text leads you to believe there cannot be premonition-like dragon dreams? There sure seems to be a lot of evidence pointing to dragon dreams being very likely.

Are you viewing "greensight" and "dragon dreams" as the same thing? I believe they are very different. I see these ideas as two separate abilities.

Who would have sent Daenys her dream? And how?

Who sent Daeron and Daemon their dreams? Yes, BR was alive for these but he was not hooked up to a tree yet and what would his motivations have been assuming he could do this before going north? Is there anything in the text that points to this as the case?

Yes, BR has the ability to influence dreams but that doesn't mean every premonition-like dream is because of BR or the COTF.

This might be a good idea with green dreams, but I do not believe this applies to dragon dreams.

Exactly, and when thinking more about George's motivations for putting in these dragon dreams they sure make for a convenient method of foreshadowing. 

I think the purpose of dragon dreams is for the reader to try and figure out what they mean. 

 

See above. Different type of dreams, IMO. Different conversation.

 

I see no particular reason to think that green dreams and dragon dreams are completely separate abilities. They seem pretty darn similar to me. Just like I think that "seeing visions in the flames" is equivalent to having your third eye opened by being in darkness/blind. Because if you stare at a fire for hours, you effectively go blind. I don't think there are separate forms of magic like "ice magic" and "fire magic". I think it is all just standard GRRM telepathy which he has used plenty of times before in his other stories.

If you want my full explanation for why I think these things, it's difficult to summarize in a concise manner. But feel free to read my COTF master plan thread if you have a bunch of spare time . That thread also provides more context for why exactly I think BR influenced the NW election and put the raven in the kettle in the first place. It was just one step in a long-term plan to cause humanity to go to war. Jon and Dany are being set up to lead humans to war against the Others, and most people will believe that one or both of them are AAR and will follow them into battle with religious fervor. And that's not cool, because the Others are just another faction of humans and don't deserve to be wiped out.

But to quickly answer your question about who sent Daenys, Daeron, and Daemon their dreams, I think it was probably the old gods/weirnet, which have been powerful (and working on this long term plan) since long before Bloodraven joined them.

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

If it wasn't Sam who put the raven in the kettle, then it must be Bran . What ? no Bloodraven? It is true Bloodraven is a powerful warg , but his primary interest is Bran , while Bran is constantly thinking about Jon and wasn't it Bran who helped Jon to awaken his warg ability . 

Jon Snow was already Lord Commander of the Night's Watch when Bran was learning how to skin change ravens. 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

If you want my full explanation for why I think these things, it's difficult to summarize in a concise manner. But feel free to read my COTF master plan thread if you have a bunch of spare time .

Haha! 

I didn't realize who you were before this post.

I read your 'Master Plan' post when you first wrote it. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

19 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Haha! 

I didn't realize who you were before this post.

I read your 'Master Plan' post when you first wrote it. 

LOL yep that's me . Just to clarify, that link is to the ridiculously long "part 3" post. Part 1 is about the weirnet, part 2 is time travel, and part 3 is everything else including crackpot logic and a long list of events potentially influenced by the old gods. So I recommend reading part 3 if you haven't yet. And if you have read it I applaud your ability to read ridiculously long and slightly tinfoil covered theories 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

LOL yep that's me . Just to clarify, that link is to the ridiculously long "part 3" post. Part 1 is about the weirnet, part 2 is time travel, and part 3 is everything else including crackpot logic and a long list of events potentially influenced by the old gods. So I recommend reading part 3 if you haven't yet. And if you have read it I applaud your ability to read ridiculously long and slightly tinfoil covered theories 

I've read part 1 for sure. I think was involved in the discussion as well. I think I read part 2. I definitely skimmed part 3. 

They are interesting threads. I applaud the way you think about the text. I don't agree with most of what I read, but I do appreciate how it could help me to read certain moments in the text from a new perspective. 

Did you change your picture? Is that why I didn't recognize you?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

13 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I've read part 1 for sure. I think was involved in the discussion as well. I think I read part 2. I definitely skimmed part 3. 

They are interesting threads. I applaud the way you think about the text. I don't agree with most of what I read, but I do appreciate how it could help me to read certain moments in the text from a new perspective. 

Did you change your picture? Is that why I didn't recognize you?

Thank you! Yeah, that's basically my main goal. I don't expect 99% people to agree with most of what I theorize, but I hope it gives them a new perspective.

Yes, my picture used to be the portrait of Daeron I. My name "40 Thousand Skeletons" is derived from the passage in TWOIAF talking about the men he lost holding Dorne. At some point I changed my picture to be the pile of skulls from that passage that inspired the name. Other people used to have the same picture as me, and I thought this one was slightly more appropriate.