Bakker LI - The Darkness That Lies Ahead (TUC Spoilers!)

[Maithanet]

17 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Eh, I thought he mentioned that stuff on this forum when he was still sock puppet-ing

Yeah, you can find the first post where Bakker identifies himself here.

If you are interested in Bakker's sockpuppet post (there was only one), it is earlier in that thread.  I don't remember exactly when he starts talking about the whore/harridan/waif, but it comes up at some point in the Bakker and Women threads. 

[Hello World]

10 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

If you are interested in Bakker's sockpuppet post (there was only one),

Was it only one? Because based on this post I always assumed there were two and one of them got deleted (both links don't work now.)

[Maithanet]

1 minute ago, Hello World said:

Was it only one? Because based on this post I always assumed there were two and one of them got deleted (both links don't work now.)

uh...maybe?  I don't know why Ran would go to the trouble of deleting one and leaving the other, but whatever.  I remember reading that thread as it was happening and Bakker's posts were almost completely ignored until the post where he signed it Scott at the end.

[Pino Proxy]

I just finished the book, and these are a few things on my mind that I'm wondering if people have answers to:

1. So was that actually Aurang at the end of TWP (considering that Inchoroi was...not like Aurax in TUC)? Or did Aurax become submissive, etc. only after the Consult was subsumed by the Dunyain?

2. I skimmed the AMA, but what's the big controversy?

3. What is the deal with Kellhus and Ajokli? What was their relationship and when did it start?

4. Are the Inchoroi creations of the "Progenitors" in the manner that Sranc are creations of the Inchoroi, or are the Inchoroi as we see Aurang the result of breeding over time much like the way the Dunyain did it?

5. What is the head on the pole?

And of course, my biggest question:

6. Is there a general consensus on Kellhus and whether he will have an active role in the next series (like as a Ciphrang or an entity in the Outside)? Or is his role in the series complete?

To me, the series has always revolved around Kellhus, so it's kind of jarring thinking we're moving forward with him removed from the story.

On a separate note, has anyone here played Xenogears? The parallels struck me quite a few times during the series.

[Darth Richard II]

Hah, yeah I think the Xenogears team and Bakker both read the same philosophy books.

[lokisnow]

4 hours ago, Kalbear said:

So the theory is that Esme was supposed to be the 'harridan' and Mimara the whore? Uh...wha?

 

Yup. I think he made her more of a slavery victim and less a whore in the BaW aftermath, but she was probably intended to be a whore all along.

and Esme the harridan, her ultimate role, and structured from her first chapter as an 'old whore'

note he only names serwe in the post because the other two roles revealed spoilers.

[Spring Bass]

2 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

I just finished the book, and these are a few things on my mind that I'm wondering if people have answers to:

1. So was that actually Aurang at the end of TWP (considering that Inchoroi was...not like Aurax in TUC)? Or did Aurax become submissive, etc. only after the Consult was subsumed by the Dunyain?

2. I skimmed the AMA, but what's the big controversy?

3. What is the deal with Kellhus and Ajokli? What was their relationship and when did it start?

4. Are the Inchoroi creations of the "Progenitors" in the manner that Sranc are creations of the Inchoroi, or are the Inchoroi as we see Aurang the result of breeding over time much like the way the Dunyain did it?

5. What is the head on the pole?

And of course, my biggest question:

6. Is there a general consensus on Kellhus and whether he will have an active role in the next series (like as a Ciphrang or an entity in the Outside)? Or is his role in the series complete?

To me, the series has always revolved around Kellhus, so it's kind of jarring thinking we're moving forward with him removed from the story.

On a separate note, has anyone here played Xenogears? The parallels struck me quite a few times during the series.

1. That was Aurax at the end. It's not clear if he became submissive after the Consult was hijacked (assuming it was, and not vice versa), or if he's been like that for a while. 

2. Bakker admitted that he doesn't really have any plan or outline for where the broad storylines and themes are headed, and is making it up as he goes. As you can imagine, that kind of throws a damper on any speculation about where it might go. 

3. Kellhus made a deal with Ajokli, as far as we can tell. Their relationship may have started as far back as the Circumfix, or earlier. 

4. Yes, the Inchoroi are a Weapons Race just like the ones they created on Earwa. The difference is that they're ensouled and designed specifically so that they're constantly damning themselves and thus have a motivation to stick to the Ark's plan (not that it's hard to be damned in that setting). 

5. No idea still. 

 

[Dora Vee]

3 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

 

On a separate note, has anyone here played Xenogears? The parallels struck me quite a few times during the series.

I have, but it's been years. 

 

As for Kellhus, according to Bakker, he's "dead, but not done". That can mean anything. 

[Darth Richard II]

5 minutes ago, Dora Vee said:

I have, but it's been years. 

 

As for Kellhus, according to Bakker, he's "dead, but not done". That can mean anything. 

Bakker probably doesn't know himself.

[odium]

The Kelmomas explanation was actually pretty good. Still, it would have been nice to have some coherency with all the dreams about Nau-Cauyuti and seeing some kind of logical connection between him and Kelmomas, even a similar 'incongruity' or some such. But that's just me griping. I also like the idea of the Incohoroi as an ensouled Weapons Race because it at least offers some context for that whole random ass Simas-the-sorcerous-skinspy bit.

[Kalbear]

3 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

1. So was that actually Aurang at the end of TWP (considering that Inchoroi was...not like Aurax in TUC)? Or did Aurax become submissive, etc. only after the Consult was subsumed by the Dunyain?

My guess is that it was Aurang at the end of TWP. We've only seen Aurax once, and that was in super lapdog mode. Why wouldn't they have used Aurax instead of Aurang to go fight Kellhus at some point?

3 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

2. I skimmed the AMA, but what's the big controversy?

Many things, but some of the bigger hits:

-Consensus was that Kellhus' plan was to merge with Ajokli and become the prince of Hell on Earwa, and Kellhus was a bad guy all along. That's what the book kind of implied. Turns out that Kellhus was planning on being good but got taken over by Ajokli unexpectedly.

-Bakker made a comment about how he meant to imply meaning to a lot of things but didn't actually have meaning in them, so all of those 'subtle' bits that people pick up on? Don't really matter, but they're meant to mislead you and let you experience meaning in a new way. 

-Bakker doesn't know how the next series will go, virtually at all. 

3 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

3. What is the deal with Kellhus and Ajokli? What was their relationship and when did it start?

Per the AMA, it likely started right after Kellhus was on the Circumfix. Unknown what the actual deal was. All we know is that Kellhus didn't intend to rule Earwa as his hell on earth, but Ajokli used Kellhus to do that.

3 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

4. Are the Inchoroi creations of the "Progenitors" in the manner that Sranc are creations of the Inchoroi, or are the Inchoroi as we see Aurang the result of breeding over time much like the way the Dunyain did it?

The Inchoroi are the result of graft after graft after graft, most of which were experimental and none they understood. They started out as creations of progenitors, but their final forms now aren't remotely close to what they were like before. They probably looked kind of like Giger Aliens to start with. 

3 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

5. What is the head on the pole?

It's behind you.

The short answer is that Bakker saw his reflection in a coffee shop and thought it looked cool and creepy. Based on that, it is some kind of reflection of Kellhus, and probably the answer to why Ajokli can't find Kellhus in the afterlife.

3 hours ago, YoungBoulheim said:

And of course, my biggest question:

6. Is there a general consensus on Kellhus and whether he will have an active role in the next series (like as a Ciphrang or an entity in the Outside)? Or is his role in the series complete?

To me, the series has always revolved around Kellhus, so it's kind of jarring thinking we're moving forward with him removed from the story.

Another thing that pissed people off is that Kellhus is dead, but not done, and chances are good he's a head dangling off of his salted corpse. 

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, odium said:

The Kelmomas explanation was actually pretty good. Still, it would have been nice to have some coherency with all the dreams about Nau-Cauyuti and seeing some kind of logical connection between him and Kelmomas, even a similar 'incongruity' or some such. But that's just me griping. I also like the idea of the Incohoroi as an ensouled Weapons Race because it at least offers some context for that whole random ass Simas-the-sorcerous-skinspy bit.

I'm still a bit bummed that they didn't go the moralistic way; that the Consult could at any time create souled creations, but chose not to because they knew what awaited souled creatures and thought it was the most evil thing they could imagine. They created the skin spy with a soul at great ethical cost to themselves, and assuaged their guilt knowing it was the only way to spy on the Mandate. 

But apparently it was just an accidental mistake, like so much of the Inchoroi tech use. They didn't understand the Womb Plague and screwed up on that, they didn't understand how the Prosthesis worked, etc. They're just pressing random buttons on Ark and hoping and praying.

[odium]

I accidentally convinced my girlfriend not to read TSA by being too vocal about my bitter disappointment, lol. She was at the beginning of TDTCB.

[Dora Vee]

59 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Bakker made a comment about how he meant to imply meaning to a lot of things but didn't actually have meaning in them, so all of those 'subtle' bits that people pick up on? Don't really matter, but they're meant to mislead you and let you experience meaning in a new way. 

HAH! Yea, that worked on me. My new way of experiencing meaning was RAGE QUIT. 

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah it's kind of hard to look for hidden meanings and foreshadowing when there is none. Although that gets into the definition of foreshadowing argument.

[Darth Richard II]

I'm almost positive it was confirmed as a hologram.

[Pino Proxy]

Great answers. Thanks guys.

Kellhus kind of defines the series for me, so the idea that he could be gone for good coupled with the fact that Bakker doesn't have what comes next planned out is really underwhelming.

Also I really think Ajokli should have had more mentions throughout the series. It made the reveal less impactful.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

16 hours ago, Kalbear said:

It's behind you.

The short answer is that Bakker saw his reflection in a coffee shop and thought it looked cool and creepy. Based on that, it is some kind of reflection of Kellhus, and probably the answer to why Ajokli can't find Kellhus in the afterlife.

Reallly? It seems that when we get the head on the pole scenes, the Gods have no problem finding him. Are you saying he used it to create his own little place in the Outside?

And, i think that its more just him seeing his reflection, yes that was the inspiration, though. Remember when Koringhus explained that when dissecting the brains of the Arab that they didn't have a part of the brain that was associated with the soul? I think that could refer to the head on the pole. And the theory floating around that its just his soul, being used as an anchor, as to not succumb to the Gods. "The living shall not haunt the dead."

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Reallly? It seems that when we get the head on the pole scenes, the Gods have no problem finding him. Are you saying he used it to create his own little place in the Outside?

No; I'm saying that Kellhus' self is protected, because a part of his self (or his whole soul) was the thing watching him, the head on a pole, which meant that whatever happened to the thing that interacted with the gods was not 'him'. 

And given Bakker's penchant for literalism, it may literally be an actual head, on a pole, that is watching Kellhus and acting as an observer. 

2 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

And, i think that its more just him seeing his reflection, yes that was the inspiration, though. Remember when Koringhus explained that when dissecting the brains of the Arab that they didn't have a part of the brain that was associated with the soul?

The...Arab?

16 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I'm almost positive it was confirmed as a hologram.

Yes, it was. Specifically it was stated that it needed to be done while Ark powered up and the Oars (the two big horns of Golgotterath, well, now the one big horn) powered up and got the No-God spinning up.

Why that couldn't be done inside Ark, or on the other side where the battle wasn't, I have no idea. Shae likes to fuck with people as much as Bakker does, I suppose.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

32 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The...Arab?

The Brain. Sorry. Autocorrect