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Season 8: News, Spoilers And Leaks

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2 hours ago, Error-504 said:

Wow, this shows how little a grasp you have of the story. Rhaegar and Aerys already had divided the kingdom into two camps of supporters. Rhaegar had eloped with Lyanna prior to The Starks being executed, chances are he had no idea what had happened. When he did find out, it was too late. The very reason the Starks were there was to demand Rhaegar return Lyanna, thinking she had been kidnapped. 

Brandon came to the Red Keep, calling for Rheagar, shouting "come out and die". Aerys not only killed Brandon and his father. He also asked Jon Arryn for Ned and Robert heads. That is what started the rebellion. Aerys was mad. He thought everyone was plotting against him. Even his son. There was no stopping him, but what Jaime did.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

yeah. Aerys killed his dad and brother horrifically and Rhaegar didn't seem to give a fuck.

What in seven hells are you even rambling about now? I never asked about Ned's opinion, I asked if he would have joined the Robert's Rebellion, if he know it was founded on a lie. 

Brandon came to the Red Keep, calling for Rheagar, shouting "come out and die". Aerys not only killed Brandon and his father. He also asked Jon Arryn for Ned and Robert heads. That is what started the rebellion. Aerys was mad. He thought everyone was plotting against him. Even his son. There was no stopping him, but what Jaime did.

context is everything here. 

Why did Brandon come to the Red Keep? Because of Lyanna being kidnapped. Brandon was enraged and rode to King's Landing demanding the release of his sister and the death of Rhaegar. never a good idea to come to KL and demanding the death of the crown prince, not when he didn't do anything wrong. The thing is, none of this happens if they knew Lyanna was a willing participant. 

Furthermore, when all this is happening, Rhaegar is away in Dorne with Lyanna. Up to this point, Rhaegar and Aerys were at odds anyways, and a good many thought the tournament was a vehicle in which to gather the seven kingdoms and come to an understanding to have Aerys declared mad, removed from the throne, and Rhaegar installed as king. Rhaegar meets Lyanna and all other plans get set aside (sigh, luuv). 

Rhaegar didn't know about Brandon and Rickon getting burned alive, so the whole "Rhaegar knew and did nothing" is a false narrative. 

The story consisted of two who were in love, one Rhaegar, saddled with an arranged marriage and a lunatic father who thought he (Rhaegar) was scheming against him, the other, Lyanna, faced with the prospect of an arranged marriage to Robert, that she didn't want.

They both just said f**K it and eloped, in any other story this would be seen as a "good for them" moment. The only thing really left to argue about is if they should have foreseen the repercussions of their elopement. At any rate, beign a willing participant, Lyanna shoulders as much of the blame (maybe more) than Rhaegar. For all we know, it could have been Lyanna's plan from the get go. 

Edited by Error-504

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Rhaegar acted recklessly, he didn't even leave a raven or inform people of what he was doing. Rhaegar was oblivious to how his actions could cause dissent in the realm, and that makes him unsympathetic in my eyes. I dont know why there's this Must Defend Rhaegar impulse. He's flawed and he fucked up.

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Speaking of, Jon seems to be doing the same by going on joy rides with auntie on dragons even AFTER they hear about Viserion, Wall falling, and North simmering at a boil toward Dany. No awareness of how flying off to have sex makes him look or the danger he puts Winterfell in by leaving it during this crucial time. There doesn't even appear to be a mission involved, to fly off to see the damage to the Wall or see the enemy, its just, hey lets ride dragons to a waterfall and go fuck. 

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6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Speaking of, Jon seems to be doing the same by going on joy rides with auntie on dragons even AFTER they hear about Viserion, Wall falling, and North simmering at a boil toward Dany. No awareness of how flying off to have sex makes him look or the danger he puts Winterfell in by leaving it during this crucial time. There doesn't even appear to be a mission involved, to fly off to see the damage to the Wall or see the enemy, its just, hey lets ride dragons to a waterfall and go fuck. 

Your just figuring that out? Slow learner you are. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Rhaegar acted recklessly, he didn't even leave a raven or inform people of what he was doing. Rhaegar was oblivious to how his actions could cause dissent in the realm, and that makes him unsympathetic in my eyes. I dont know why there's this Must Defend Rhaegar impulse. He's flawed and he fucked up.

You mean he's human, don't you? Ahh, the things we do for love. FWIW, I think sending a Raven informing people of what he was doing might have been a death sentence. Aerys' would not be pleased. 

Edited by Error-504

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Rhaegar acted recklessly, he didn't even leave a raven or inform people of what he was doing. Rhaegar was oblivious to how his actions could cause dissent in the realm, and that makes him unsympathetic in my eyes. I dont know why there's this Must Defend Rhaegar impulse. He's flawed and he fucked up.

What should he have said? "I am having a child with Lyanna, a bastard, oh wait I annulled the marriage to my wife, because this child will be king and he must be in order to save the world. Please understand, and treat him as your king." All while his father is going mad and would probably have the child killed?

And Robert would say "Oh ok, sorry, carry on!"?

Edited by NonoNono

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Speaking of, Jon seems to be doing the same by going on joy rides with auntie on dragons even AFTER they hear about Viserion, Wall falling, and North simmering at a boil toward Dany. No awareness of how flying off to have sex makes him look or the danger he puts Winterfell in by leaving it during this crucial time. There doesn't even appear to be a mission involved, to fly off to see the damage to the Wall or see the enemy, its just, hey lets ride dragons to a waterfall and go fuck. 

Seeing the reactions in other places...I just can't. From the the whole 'well the Northern Lords are idiots so it's cool if they want a time out from that stupidity' to 'who wants to hear Sansa nag at them for an hour, I would fly off too'. And their romance is important. Blah blah blah.

Team Jon/Dany is the REASON the wall is down. Their utter stupidity of the wight hunt is what gave the NK a mega weapon in Viserion. A weapon that brought the wall down. A weapon and an army that will have caused massive deaths already in episode one (since Umber and Karstark are in this). But it's fine they prioritize dragon rides and sex over fixing the mess they unleashed on Westeros? Are you kidding me? The fact that people are even defending this (and Dany/Jon) because 'the Northern Lords are stupid with their nagging' or whatever else they come up with, completely baffles me. They are the reason for the dead army being in Westeros, they are not allowed to take sexy time while people are dying because of them. Disgusting that this is even defended.

Edited by Mystical

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5 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

What should he have said? "I am having a child with Lyanna, a bastard, oh wait I annulled the marriage to my wife, because this child will be king and he must be in order to save the world. Please understand, and treat him as your king." All while his father is going mad and would probably have the child killed?

And Robert would say "Oh ok, sorry, carry on!"?

A prince runs off with a girl who is already betrothed to someone else, the exact same thing that happened to Duncan with Jenny (also caused a rebellion), and does it in the middle of a tense political situation where your mad father could potentially blow up the realm at any moment, and you're saying there's nothing he could have done differently?

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

A prince runs off with a girl who is already betrothed to someone else, the exact same thing that happened to Duncan with Jenny (also caused a rebellion), and does it in the middle of a tense political situation where your mad father could potentially blow up the realm at any moment, and you're saying there's nothing he could have done differently?

Nothing that would warrant revealing the child exists, because the child must be protected at all cost.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

Nothing that would warrant revealing the child exists, because the child must be protected at all cost.

I'm saying, take responsibility for his actions. He could have quelled a lot of anger but he did it in the worst way possible. If you want to marry another person's betrothed then there are politically adept ways to do that. Rhaegar had nothing like that kind of sense. 

 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Seeing the reactions in other places...I just can't. From the the whole 'well the Northern Lords are idiots so it's cool if they want a time out from that stupidity' to 'who wants to hear Sansa nag at them for an hour, I would fly off too'. And their romance is important. Blah blah blah.

Team Jon/Dany is the REASON the wall is down. Their utter stupidity of the wight hunt is what gave the NK a mega weapon in Viserion. A weapon that brought the wall down. A weapon and an army that will have caused massive deaths already in episode one (since Umber and Karstark are in this). But it's fine they prioritize dragon rides and sex over fixing the mess they unleashed on Westeros? Are you kidding me? The fact that people are even defending this (and Dany/Jon) because 'the Northern Lords are stupid with their nagging' or whatever else they come up with, completely baffles me. They are the reason for the dead army being in Westeros, they are not allowed to take sexy time while people are dying because of them. Disgusting that this is even defended.

so your saying the Nk could not have made it past the wall without the dragon, is this correct? 

Edited by Error-504

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4 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

so your saying the Nk could not have made it past the wall without the dragon, is this correct? 

There’s no denying having a huge dragon that breathes whatever he does breathe now came in very handy. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

There’s no denying having a huge dragon that breathes whatever he does breathe now came in very handy. 

Not denying that in any way, just saying, one way or the other, they would have made it past the wall. FWIW, we don't know that the Nk's dragon won't be a key to his defeat as well. Maybe Bran warg's the dragon, maybe there is enough "fire magic" left in the dragon to resist killy Dany, etc. It does give a platform in which one on one combat vs the NK is a lot more possible. Before you had to wade through 100,000 wights just to get to him 

Edited by Error-504

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4 minutes ago, Error-504 said:

so your saying the Nk could not have made it past the wall without the dragon, is this correct? 

Not correct, no. There was another thread in the general section where I replied which was about other ways the NK might make it south. The problem is the timing. No one was ready to face the army of the dead. Preparations and weapons making and training had barely begun. Team Idiot shot the starting pistol way too soon, as we saw the NK not doing anything else to get past the wall anytime soon. If they had shown the NK working on his own way (like freezing the water on the side of the continent to simply walk around the wall) to make it south, that would be different. But there was nothing in the show to suggest he was working on a way to get past the wall, for 7 Seasons we haven't seen him doing anything in that regard. Until team idiot showed up and literally handed him the easiest way to get south.

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Just now, Mystical said:

Not correct, no. There was another thread in the general section where I replied which was about other ways the NK might make it south. The problem is the timing. No one was ready to face the army of the dead. Preparations and weapons making and training had barely begun. Team Idiot shot the starting pistol way too soon, as we saw the NK not doing anything else to get past the wall anytime soon. If they had shown the NK working on his own way (like freezing the water on the side of the continent to simply walk around the wall) to make it south, that would be different. But there was nothing in the show to suggest he was working on a way to get past the wall, for 7 Seasons we haven't seen him doing anything in that regard. Until team idiot showed up and literally handed him the easiest way to get south.

That's not exactly true, they were marching south. IIRC, they had gotten to a point some 20 miles North of the wall where the mountain shaped like an arrowhead was. Are we to assume that once they reached the wall, they were all just going to have a picnic? 

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2 minutes ago, Mystical said:

Not correct, no. There was another thread in the general section where I replied which was about other ways the NK might make it south. The problem is the timing. No one was ready to face the army of the dead. Preparations and weapons making and training had barely begun. Team Idiot shot the starting pistol way too soon, as we saw the NK not doing anything else to get past the wall anytime soon. If they had shown the NK working on his own way (like freezing the water on the side of the continent to simply walk around the wall) to make it south, that would be different. But there was nothing in the show to suggest he was working on a way to get past the wall, for 7 Seasons we haven't seen him doing anything in that regard. Until team idiot showed up and literally handed him the easiest way to get south.

Wait... are you really expecting a coherent narrative? Coz we ain’t gonna get that, obviously. So the NK and the army of the dead make it through the Wall when our “heroes” are totes unprepared! “

OMG!!! How can they possibly win? Noooooo, they’re all gonna die screaming!

- flip flop -

and whatever made sense, creatively speaking, will happen. 

Done! :D

 

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Posted (edited)

I think the NK is able to make it south because he marked Bran. Just like with the cave. He still had to destroy the wall to get his army through, but it was magic that truly prevented him from going through, not the wall itself. Walking past it just required a marked Bran.

It would tie nicely to the Night Watch vow too, and having to cut off the head of those who run away.

Edited by NonoNono

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11 minutes ago, NonoNono said:

I think the NK is able to make it south because he marked Bran. Just like with the cave. He still had to destroy the wall to get his army through, but it was magic that truly prevented him from going through, not the wall itself. Walking past it just required a marked Bran.

It would tie nicely to the Night Watch vow too, and having to cut off the head of those who run away.

In your fantasy, sure. In mine too. That's not what happened on the show though. My first thought when Bran showed up at the wall in the S7 premiere was 'wtf are you doing, you are marked and will negate the magic in the wall and bring it down if you cross'. But it's like D&D didn't even remember that. The NK doesn't need a dragon to get past the wall in that case, him and his army could just climb over it then if it was free of magic thanks to Bran.

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