The Book of Swords - The Sons of the Dragon SPOILERS

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I know they set themselves above the laws of gods and men... but where did we read that they were atheists?

In a sidebar in TWoIaF - that makes the most sense. People who think they are above gods and men do not care about either.

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Some scholars have suggested that the dragonlords regarded all faiths as equally false, believing themselves to be more powerful than any god or goddess. They looked upon priests and temples as relics of a more primitive time, though useful for placating “slaves, savages, and the poor” with promises of a better life to come. Moreover, a multiplicity of gods helped to keep their subjects divided and lessened the chances of their uniting under the banner of a single faith to overthrow their overlords. Religious tolerance was to them a means of keeping the peace in the Lands of the Long Summer.

And it is not uncommon trait at all. George himself is an atheist as are most of the educated - and even some of the less educated - people in the series. Tyrion, Stannis, Cersei, Theon, Daenerys, Sandor, etc. are all explicitly atheist, or people who consider religion to be empty rituals and promises for the rabble they rule. They are not genuinely pious or anything.

And if religion is brought up the contents are usually set up in the way that the narrator tells the reader that this is what 'the septons' or 'the priests' tell. It is not introduced as something the character himself considers as truth.

George has some religious characters - zealots like Melisandre and Aeron, and superstitious folk like Davos and Victarion - but they are not the rule.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Also, it's worth pointing out that in one of our other major religions, the Old Gods appear to be immortal trees who can retain the memories of bones they root. Or maybe the Old Gods are the ancestors spirits/souls/consciousnesses which can survive on inside these daemon trees.

And we know a warg's memories can linger on in their familiar... why not a sword?

Well, because swords do not have souls? Skinchangers and greenseers merge their spirits with those of animals and trees. That is what allows them - or forces them - that parts of them linger when they are already dead. But there is no hint whatsoever that the same kind of thing works with lifeless artifacts, nor is there any hint that non-skinchanger/greenseers can do anything of that sort.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And the dragons themselves bore the names of the Valyrian Gods... if ice preserves, and the Old Gods retain the spirits of the dead, while fire consumes, and the Valyrian Gods could be dragons birthed by sacrifice?

The Targaryens named some of their dragons after gods worshiped in Valyria. But all the gods of the known world where worshiped in Valyria. That doesn't mean anything. In fact, naming your pets after gods other people worship(ed) is totally in character for people who consider themselves above gods and men.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

It does seem somehow connected, but cremation doesn't seem that common in Westeros, that's why it's remarkable. Just for perspective, you have a continent occasionally plagued by necromantic ice deamons who raise your dead from the ground to come and kill you during abnormally long winters... but it's the godless foreigners who burn their dead...

And the wildlings. The one who actually deal with the ice demons. Westeros has a lot of individual burial rites. The Targaryens (and presumably the other dragonlords, too) cremated their dead. The Starks put them in their crypts. The Lannisters likely do a similar thing under the Rock. But the Tullys put their dead in a boat and burn it on the river. That is just another version of cremation. Cremation doesn't seem to be rare or exceptional in Westeros.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

No, I don't think it was the heat and fire... I think it was the fire and BLOOD. (Both for Aegon/Blackfyre and Ned/Ice imitation)

You can certainly believe that. There is just not a lot of textual evidence to support that idea.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Because we have no reason to believe this was the norm, was Visenya burned with Darksister?

Perhaps because the Dowager Queen Alyssa stole the sword Dark Sister before the Dowager Queen Visenya was cremated by the command of her son, King Maegor?

And when Maegor died Blackfyre was also already in the possession of Jaehaerys I, so no need to burn it again with the man who shouldn't have owned it in the first place.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

And even if he blade isn't damaged like a normal sword the grip/pommel etc. would all get fucked up, which is fine, but we don't see anyone else getting blazed with their heirloom sword...

There is actually no great indication that the Targaryens of Aegon's generation cared all that much about that sword. They may have had other Valyrian steel weapons at that point, and it had been Aegon's sword.

From what we know about Targaryen cremation it usually involved clothing the corpse in a very generous manner - that's what's done with Baelor Breakspear in THK - and we also know that Dany does a similar thing with Drogo. It is hardly a surprise that Aegon's most precious possessions accompany him into the afterlife.

4 hours ago, Yucef Menaerys said:

I completely agree, it's extremely weird that any Targaryen wouldn't have a dragon, I assume that would be the number one priority for any Targ kid, a lot of people try to bring up the story of Vaegon the dragonless to claim that this is proof that not all Targaryens had the magical ability to ride dragons kinda like squibs in Harry Potter, this is a ridiculous idea IMO I think every Targaryen could ride dragons if they wanted, so the story of Vaegon the dragonless is completely non-sensical except if maybe he just decided he doesn't want to have any dragon which would be queer but possible.

George goes out of his way to explain why Maegor did not claim a dragon. In light of the fact that Aenys and Rhaena got dragons - and later Jaehaerys and Alysanne, too - it is simply inconceivable that nobody thought to give dragons to Aenys I's Heir Apparent, Aegon, and the second in line, Viserys. There must be a good explanation for this.

On a personal level Maegor's strategy to wait for Balerion (or Vhagar) wasn't that bad, but from a dynastic point of view it makes no sense to keep the Conqueror's eldest grandsons away from dragons. They are the future. They must be seen to be as grandiose and above everyone else as Aegon, Visenya, and Aenys. And that only works if they are dragonriders, too. Their dragons might not be as impressive yet but they can grow.

The Conqueror would have taken Balerion along on his progresses, and Aenys and Alyssa would have traveled with Quicksilver. Are we really to believe that Prince Aegon was sent on a royal progress by his royal father without a dragon of his own. What kind of a show of force would that be?

And even if Dreamfyre was with him and Rhaena - as it seems she was - it simply makes no sense that they ended up being besieged in a castle if Rhaena had a dragon with them.

Vaegon the Dragonless doesn't sound like a guy who couldn't claim a dragon - at least in my opinion - but rather as a man who didn't get a dragon in the first place. And, in a sense, his royal parents could have done that by choice if they decided to send this prince to the Citadel around the time of his birth.

Princesses Maegelle and Saera most likely were never dragonriders, either. It is not likely that septas (or girls who were trained to become septas) were also dragonriders. But Jaehaerys' children Alyssa, Aemon, Baelon, Daella, and Viserra most definitely could have been dragonriders. And perhaps even the young Gael. She may have been a simpleton but she was Alysanne's favorite and the simpleton Jaehaera later also got a dragon of her own.

In addition, there are the four children who did not grow to adulthood. Some of them could have been given dragons, too. Especially their firstborn, Prince Aegon, a boy who very well could have lived for a couple of years.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In a sidebar in TWoIaF - that makes the most sense. People who think they are above gods and men do not care about either.

In reality, yes this makes great sense... but in a Planetos where there is magic and dragons and prophesy... I'm not so sure. I'd suggest we re-evaluate what it means to believe in gods and the nature of those godson a would where the supernatural is possible.

The Old Gods are real enough, perhaps not divine in the way we usually think of gods, but they are supernatural and immortal. In fact, they may even be able to hear your prayers and send visions. 

 

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is not uncommon trait at all. George himself is an atheist as are most of the educated - and even some of the less educated - people in the series. Tyrion, Stannis, Cersei, Theon, Daenerys, Sandor, etc. are all explicitly atheist, or people who consider religion to be empty rituals and promises for the rabble they rule. They are not genuinely pious or anything.

This makes total rational sense, but in a world with magic and dragons I'm suggesting possibly reevaluating the line between atheist and being "above gods and men".

Is there any mention of the Gods of old Valyrian except as the names of dragons? If the primitive Valyrians worshiped dragons as gods, then eventually became dragon riders, wouldn't they literally have put themselves above gods and men?  

Im not suggesting they were praying for help from some all powerful creator, that's a very monotheistic tradition which we don't find in Planetos. The Faith of the Seven for instance seems most akin to what we think of as organized religion, without any evidence praying to them helps. But the other "religions" seem to have practical powers, it's just not at all clear there is true divine agency behind it.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And if religion is brought up the contents are usually set up in the way that the narrator tells the reader that this is what 'the septons' or 'the priests' tell. It is not introduced as something the character himself considers as truth.

What about Jojen and the old gods?

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

George has some religious characters - zealots like Melisandre and Aeron, and superstitious folk like Davos and Victarion - but they are not the rule.

Not the rule among the educated nobles perhaps, but who do you trust more, the educated noble story or Old Nan's supernatural version?

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, because swords do not have souls? Skinchangers and greenseers merge their spirits with those of animals and trees. That is what allows them - or forces them - that parts of them linger when they are already dead. But there is no hint whatsoever that the same kind of thing works with lifeless artifacts, nor is there any hint that non-skinchanger/greenseers can do anything of that sort.

I think there is a big hint that bones can be warged to make wights... and the glamor used on Mance seems to use the bone armor which "remembers" its former wearer... not only that but I don't remember longclaw changing colors when it was burned.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Targaryens named some of their dragons after gods worshiped in Valyria. But all the gods of the known world where worshiped in Valyria. That doesn't mean anything. In fact, naming your pets after gods other people worship(ed) is totally in character for people who consider themselves above gods and men.

But if your pet was a dragon worshiped as a god, once you are riding it you are literally above gods and men. I think the Valyrian dragonriders felt they had conquered their own gods, then set about conquering other people's gods...

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And the wildlings. The one who actually deal with the ice demons. Westeros has a lot of individual burial rites. The Targaryens (and presumably the other dragonlords, too) cremated their dead. The Starks put them in their crypts. The Lannisters likely do a similar thing under the Rock. But the Tullys put their dead in a boat and burn it on the river. That is just another version of cremation. Cremation doesn't seem to be rare or exceptional in Westeros.

Great example of the Tullys, I just think it's odd that first men families seem to burry their dead as a tradition possibly presaging the wall.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

You can certainly believe that. There is just not a lot of textual evidence to support that idea.

Perhaps because the Dowager Queen Alyssa stole the sword Dark Sister before the Dowager Queen Visenya was cremated by the command of her son, King Maegor?

And when Maegor died Blackfyre was also already in the possession of Jaehaerys I, so no need to burn it again with the man who shouldn't have owned it in the first place.

Good points, I'm just looking for other examples...

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is actually no great indication that the Targaryens of Aegon's generation cared all that much about that sword. They may have had other Valyrian steel weapons at that point, and it had been Aegon's sword.

Besides that it was worth stealing, as you pointed out...

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

From what we know about Targaryen cremation it usually involved clothing the corpse in a very generous manner - that's what's done with Baelor Breakspear in THK - and we also know that Dany does a similar thing with Drogo. It is hardly a surprise that Aegon's most precious possessions accompany him into the afterlife.

Very fair, and I agree, but it's odd that the sword changed colors and that this detail was included at all.

[Jaak]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And even if Dreamfyre was with him and Rhaena - as it seems she was - it simply makes no sense that they ended up being besieged in a castle if Rhaena had a dragon with them.

It makes no sense that Rhaena was stuck at Fair Isle expressly with Dreamfyre. Either Balerion or Vhagar might have made short work of Dreamfyre if they did meet, but they were just two dragonriders. They should have been at least as helpless actually finding Dreamfyre as Sheepstealer and Caraxes were trying to find Vhagar.

More so, because Aemond´s goal was to make trouble to his foes and stay around Riverlands - for some reason, he did not bring dragonfire home to Vale and North. A dragonrider whose goal was to be as elusive as Grey Ghost, make no trouble, steal a few sheep to feed dragon, mother and children, and if meeting shepherds pay more than their market value, and get away quickly, should have accomplished that in very little time. Before a week, they should have been in Dothraki Sea with no stationary witnesses at all, and no raven mail to update any pursuers.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In reality, yes this makes great sense... but in a Planetos where there is magic and dragons and prophesy... I'm not so sure. I'd suggest we re-evaluate what it means to believe in gods and the nature of those godson a would where the supernatural is possible.

The Old Gods are real enough, perhaps not divine in the way we usually think of gods, but they are supernatural and immortal. In fact, they may even be able to hear your prayers and send visions. 

The old gods aren't gods at all. They are people with supernatural powers (greenseers) or nothing but the mindless forces of nature (the way the woods witch comforting Varamyr's parents sees it).

There is a huge metaphysical difference between the Seven and the old gods. The followers of those two religions have remarkably different god concepts.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

This makes total rational sense, but in a world with magic and dragons I'm suggesting possibly reevaluating the line between atheist and being "above gods and men".

Well, we know the dragonlords apparently didn't believe in any gods.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Is there any mention of the Gods of old Valyrian except as the names of dragons? If the primitive Valyrians worshiped dragons as gods, then eventually became dragon riders, wouldn't they literally have put themselves above gods and men?  

Sure, the ancient/primitive Valyrians would have still been as pious/religious as the people around them. But it wouldn't have been just the dragons and the power and wealth they accumulated overtime but also simply knowledge about the world that led them on the path to overcome their religious past.

And it is quite clear that Valyria was a home for all the gods of the world. R'hllor and other non-Valyrian gods were worshiped there, too.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Im not suggesting they were praying for help from some all powerful creator, that's a very monotheistic tradition which we don't find in Planetos. The Faith of the Seven for instance seems most akin to what we think of as organized religion, without any evidence praying to them helps. But the other "religions" seem to have practical powers, it's just not at all clear there is true divine agency behind it.

People have power. And some cultures and people ascribe magical powers - and the existence of magic in general - to divine entities. The Seven don't seem to intervene, but there are quite a few people serving them who have magical talents. Septon Murmison supposedly had healing hands - we don't know whether that's true - but the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle definitely has healing hands as he and the people there say. He healed Sandor Clegane from certain death, something not even a maester should have been able to do at that point.

People would believe that such healing powers come from the Seven. And we have no way of knowing whether that's actually the case or not. I don't think it is, but we don't know.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What about Jojen and the old gods?

See above. They are natural forces/mortal people with supernatural/magical powers.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Not the rule among the educated nobles perhaps, but who do you trust more, the educated noble story or Old Nan's supernatural version?

Magical powers and magic itself certainly exist. The problem is whether the theological speculations of the various peoples and cultures contain any truth. George has said that gods are never going to appear as characters so this question is going to be one that's not relevant for the series.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think there is a big hint that bones can be warged to make wights... and the glamor used on Mance seems to use the bone armor which "remembers" its former wearer... not only that but I don't remember longclaw changing colors when it was burned.

Well, bones are part of the remains of a person, no? Or, in Rattleshirt's case, part of his wardrobe. They help maintain the illusion that Mance is Rattleshirt.

Could be that Longclaw was already dark enough, from previous fires. Or the whole story about Blackfyre is just a story. Could very well be that origin of that story goes back to some dude who was King Aenys remove the sword from the ashes of the pyre, having the impression that it darkened because it was full of ashes and soot.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But if your pet was a dragon worshiped as a god, once you are riding it you are literally above gods and men. I think the Valyrian dragonriders felt they had conquered their own gods, then set about conquering other people's gods...

The Valyrians don't appear to have had any issues with other people's gods. Their pragmatic approach towards religion is pretty obvious when Aegon sucks up the Faith after the Conquest. It seems rather likely that very few Targaryens prior to Baelor the Blessed were true believers - Aegon, Visenya, Aenys, Maegor, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, etc. don't seem to have been genuine pious people.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Great example of the Tullys, I just think it's odd that first men families seem to burry their dead as a tradition possibly presaging the wall.

I imagine that many noble houses have their own traditional burial rites which are completely independent from their religion. The Arryns could lay their to rest somewhere in the mountains, say, perhaps even allowing the vultures to devour them ritually, etc.

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Besides that it was worth stealing, as you pointed out...

At that point Blackfyre already was on the way to become 'the sword of the kings'. Visenya began that when she spread the story that Aenys giving Blackfyre to Maegor means that Aenys himself thought Maegor should rule. In that sense, it was a great feat of Rhaena to steal the 'king's sword'.

[Lord Varys]

53 minutes ago, Jaak said:

It makes no sense that Rhaena was stuck at Fair Isle expressly with Dreamfyre. Either Balerion or Vhagar might have made short work of Dreamfyre if they did meet, but they were just two dragonriders. They should have been at least as helpless actually finding Dreamfyre as Sheepstealer and Caraxes were trying to find Vhagar.

More so, because Aemond´s goal was to make trouble to his foes and stay around Riverlands - for some reason, he did not bring dragonfire home to Vale and North. A dragonrider whose goal was to be as elusive as Grey Ghost, make no trouble, steal a few sheep to feed dragon, mother and children, and if meeting shepherds pay more than their market value, and get away quickly, should have accomplished that in very little time. Before a week, they should have been in Dothraki Sea with no stationary witnesses at all, and no raven mail to update any pursuers.

Well, Rhaena obviously had no intention to live like a brigand or outlaw out in the wild. That was no option for her. She lived at Fair Isle, and not on the move. Perhaps she wasn't even able to do that - because, you know, she had no idea how she should get food, shelter, clothes, etc. out in the wild.

[Jaak]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, Rhaena obviously had no intention to live like a brigand or outlaw out in the wild. That was no option for her. She lived at Fair Isle, and not on the move. Perhaps she wasn't even able to do that - because, you know, she had no idea how she should get food, shelter, clothes, etc. out in the wild.

Less than a week to Dorne, Volantis or Qohor. Which Maegor would have been less eager to attack.

[Lord Varys]

Just now, Jaak said:

Less than a week to Dorne, Volantis or Qohor. Which Maegor would have been less eager to attack.

Obviously she did not want to go to Dorne, Volantis, or Qohor.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The old gods aren't gods at all. They are people with supernatural powers (greenseers) or nothing but the mindless forces of nature (the way the woods witch comforting Varamyr's parents sees it).

I am sure you know better than me, and perhaps you have it all worked out, with no need for any doubt whatsoever, but I suspect this statement misses the mark. This is what Jojen tells us...

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"A reader lives a thousand lives before he dies," said Jojen. "The man who never reads lives only one. The singers of the forest had no books. No ink, no parchment, no written language. Instead they had the trees, and the weirwoods above all. When they died, they went into the wood, into leaf and limb and root, and the trees remembered. All their songs and spells, their histories and prayers, everything they knew about this world. Maesters will tell you that the weirwoods are sacred to the old gods. The singers believe they are the old gods. When singers die they become part of that godhood."

Bran III, Dance 34

And this is what Leaf tells us...

Quote

"Where are the rest of you?" Bran asked Leaf, once.

"Gone down into the earth," she answered. "Into the stones, into the trees."

Bran III, Dance 34

This belief system appears to be based on animism. 

[Lord Varys]

13 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

This belief system appears to be based on animism. 

Isn't that what I said when I pointed out Varamyr's parents and the woods witch?

But I'm not sure the Children really believed in animism per se. The weirwoods seem to be divine to them - deities - because they are effectively immortal. But it is the spirits of the Children who literally go into those trees and make them 'remember'. All by themselves the weirwoods should be just trees. They don't care about people.

The point I made is that 'the old gods' - as agents acting and influencing the story - are nothing but the living greenseers or, perhaps, the (collective) echo of the greenseers in the weirwoods.

There is nothing truly divine about that. No transcendental deities or anything. Not even non-transcendental deities, like Zeus and Hera atop Mount Olympus.

[Jaak]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Obviously she did not want to go to Dorne, Volantis, or Qohor.

Non-obvious. Alyssa, Jaehaerys and Alysanne were suspected to have gone to Essos. Rhaena could not be described as having gone "as far as she could" at Fair Isle, since she could have flown past Asshai. If she had reasons to prefer hiding her children and submitting to summons to any place of exile, these reasons needed to be explained in detail.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The old gods aren't gods at all. They are people with supernatural powers (greenseers) or nothing but the mindless forces of nature (the way the woods witch comforting Varamyr's parents sees it).

I don't think we disagree all that much, it seems more of a semantic/viewpoint issue. But are the old gods the "living" greenseer(s) (like bloodraven) or are they some amalgamation of the past consciousnesses that have gone into the trees?

On earth an aethist doesn't believe in god/gods, they believe the earth is governed by physical laws.

Planetos clearly has supernatural powers at work. Where do we draw the line betweeen that and "gods"? Worship? Immortality? Consciousness not human? Power? Control of the weather? Night and day? 

There are plenty of religions where gods are not all powerful, so I'm simply questioning the distinction here.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a huge metaphysical difference between the Seven and the old gods. The followers of those two religions have remarkably different god concepts.

Yes they do, but then again many religions on earth are very different from religions they sprang from, or borrowed stories from, or assimilated. 

I don't expect to see The Father suddenly appear in the book, in fact The Seven appear to be aspects of a single divine. Couldn't this in fact be a tradition changed over time by the men practicing it after being driven from their homeland and then conquering a foreign continent? The high septons little chamber is remarkably reminiscent of heart trees, and we know the Undying's ebony trees with blue leaves grow in Essos.

Anyway, just an idea, I'm not so sure that there wasn't some intent for a common background for these seemingly vastly different religions. Some more time in oldtown might illuminate the issue.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, we know the dragonlords apparently didn't believe in any gods.

We know they held themselves above gods and men, and that they didn't worship gods anymore in the sense that we're used to. 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure, the ancient/primitive Valyrians would have still been as pious/religious as the people around them. But it wouldn't have been just the dragons and the power and wealth they accumulated overtime but also simply knowledge about the world that led them on the path to overcome their religious past.

In a world without magic then yes, but what if you discover a ritual has power? What if human sacrifice could make crops grow? Even if it's a predictable supernatural result, its still supernatural, and I'm suggesting that it requires the reevaluation of what it means for a god or religion to be real.

Lets say some proto-valyrian worships dragons as gods.

Later his decendents learn to master dragons, breed them, control their power... does this mean they weren't gods? If the power is still real then isn't it just as true to say you've conquered the gods. Or if you somehow mixed your blood with there's are you now something more, something above gods and men?

Now of course the obvious response is that they just learned that dragons were never gods, but where is the distinction. I find the Old Gods and their Weirwoods might make an even better example.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And it is quite clear that Valyria was a home for all the gods of the world. R'hllor and other non-Valyrian gods were worshiped there, too.

If they discovered their gods power was real, why wouldn't they respect others?

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

People have power. And some cultures and people ascribe magical powers - and the existence of magic in general - to divine entities. The Seven don't seem to intervene, but there are quite a few people serving them who have magical talents.

 

Are you suggesting the powers are image to the people wielding them?

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Septon Murmison supposedly had healing hands - we don't know whether that's true - but the Elder Brother of Quiet Isle definitely has healing hands as he and the people there say. He healed Sandor Clegane from certain death, something not even a maester should have been able to do at that point.

Sandor was healed yes, the rest isn't so clear. It is credited to "healing hands", and that power credited to the Seven... 

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

People would believe that such healing powers come from the Seven. And we have no way of knowing whether that's actually the case or not. I don't think it is, but we don't know.

On that we certainly agree...

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Magical powers and magic itself certainly exist. The problem is whether the theological speculations of the various peoples and cultures contain any truth. George has said that gods are never going to appear as characters so this question is going to be one that's not relevant for the series.

Do you think it is a human sending visions to Mel?

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, bones are part of the remains of a person, no? Or, in Rattleshirt's case, part of his wardrobe. They help maintain the illusion that Mance is Rattleshirt.

True on the bones, I was just trying to think of some innanamate example... hmm

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Could be that Longclaw was already dark enough, from previous fires. Or the whole story about Blackfyre is just a story. Could very well be that origin of that story goes back to some dude who was King Aenys remove the sword from the ashes of the pyre, having the impression that it darkened because it was full of ashes and soot.

But replacement Ice had weird color stuff going on, now the story about blackfyre, and no color change with the example of longclaw (burned with a body (wight) but not blood), just throwing it out there.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The Valyrians don't appear to have had any issues with other people's gods. Their pragmatic approach towards religion is pretty obvious when Aegon sucks up the Faith after the Conquest. It seems rather likely that very few Targaryens prior to Baelor the Blessed were true believers - Aegon, Visenya, Aenys, Maegor, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, etc. don't seem to have been genuine pious people.

I'll agree Aegon and his heirs were willing to accept other religions and even embrace them. But I don't know if he dismissed them as false or not. By the time the Targs become pious they seem to have lost some Valyrian traditions/knowledge.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I imagine that many noble houses have their own traditional burial rites which are completely independent from their religion. The Arryns could lay their to rest somewhere in the mountains, say, perhaps even allowing the vultures to devour them ritually, etc.

I would be careful to draw Aline between first men and andals. First men houses seem to have pretty consistent burial customs. Andals I totally accept could be all over the place.

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

At that point Blackfyre already was on the way to become 'the sword of the kings'. Visenya began that when she spread the story that Aenys giving Blackfyre to Maegor means that Aenys himself thought Maegor should rule. In that sense, it was a great feat of Rhaena to steal the 'king's sword'.

With a name like Blackfyre, how can you not respect!

pleasure as always

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think we disagree all that much, it seems more of a semantic/viewpoint issue. But are the old gods the "living" greenseer(s) (like bloodraven) or are they some amalgamation of the past consciousnesses that have gone into the trees?

We don't know. It is an interesting question. The fact that Bran sees Bloodraven's predecessors as greenseers essentially rotting alive on their chairs indicates that they might still be present in some way in the weirnet. It could even be that the weirwood magic only works the way it does - or is as powerful as it is - because the present greenseer can draw on the accumulated power/life force of the previous greenseer within the trees.

That could explain why the magics of the Children were crippled as severely as they were when the First Men and Andals cut down the trees and - presumably - slaughtered all the greenseers they found in those hollow hills beneath the weirwood groves.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

On earth an aethist doesn't believe in god/gods, they believe the earth is governed by physical laws.

Planetos clearly has supernatural powers at work. Where do we draw the line betweeen that and "gods"? Worship? Immortality? Consciousness not human? Power? Control of the weather? Night and day? 

Oh, an atheist just doesn't believe in god or gods. He or she can believe in all sorts of crazy shit. A lot of educated atheists also happen to be naturalists - believing that no gods, fairies, pixies, monsters, demons, etc. interfere with natural laws - but that isn't a prerequisite to be an atheist. You can believe in magic, astrology, and other nonsense just fine and still be an atheist.

And the same would be true for Westeros as well. Although it is much more rational to believe in magic in Martinworld than in reality, of course.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Yes they do, but then again many religions on earth are very different from religions they sprang from, or borrowed stories from, or assimilated. 

I don't expect to see The Father suddenly appear in the book, in fact The Seven appear to be aspects of a single divine. Couldn't this in fact be a tradition changed over time by the men practicing it after being driven from their homeland and then conquering a foreign continent? The high septons little chamber is remarkably reminiscent of heart trees, and we know the Undying's ebony trees with blue leaves grow in Essos.

Anyway, just an idea, I'm not so sure that there wasn't some intent for a common background for these seemingly vastly different religions. Some more time in oldtown might illuminate the issue.

There is certainly an eerie parallel between the weirdo shade of the evening trees and the weirwoods. It is not unlikely that this is going to become addressed in later books.

The Seven seemed to have evolved from seven distinct deities into seven aspects of a monotheistic deity. And there are certainly various schools or factions within the Faith. Some have a more rational theology, others are more rigid or fundamentalist (the latter is very much true for the sparrows and the new High Septon).

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

We know they held themselves above gods and men, and that they didn't worship gods anymore in the sense that we're used to. 

In a world without magic then yes, but what if you discover a ritual has power? What if human sacrifice could make crops grow? Even if it's a predictable supernatural result, its still supernatural, and I'm suggesting that it requires the reevaluation of what it means for a god or religion to be real.

Lets say some proto-valyrian worships dragons as gods.

Later his decendents learn to master dragons, breed them, control their power... does this mean they weren't gods? If the power is still real then isn't it just as true to say you've conquered the gods. Or if you somehow mixed your blood with there's are you now something more, something above gods and men?

Now of course the obvious response is that they just learned that dragons were never gods, but where is the distinction. I find the Old Gods and their Weirwoods might make an even better example.

The Valyrians did not only master dragons but also magic. If you are powerful sorcerer you can conclude - or even be taught - to make sense of magic and your own magical abilities within the framework of your religion or you can decide that you yourself did (and can teach others) to master that power. If you do the latter you most likely don't care about gods afterwards. If you do you would view magic the way Melisandre or Mirri Maz Duur do.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

If they discovered their gods power was real, why wouldn't they respect others?

See above. The Valyrians most likely never explained their own magical abilities religiously.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Are you suggesting the powers are image to the people wielding them?

Not sure what you mean by that.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Sandor was healed yes, the rest isn't so clear. It is credited to "healing hands", and that power credited to the Seven... 

Yeah, magic/miracles done within the framework of the Faith would be ascribed to the Seven.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Do you think it is a human sending visions to Mel?

I don't think anybody is sending Melisandre visions. I think that certain people can see visions in flames and that we don't really know why that is the case. But we do know that it is a craft that can be learned and taught. It is not something a deity grants people in his or her infinite wisdom/omnipotence.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

But replacement Ice had weird color stuff going on, now the story about blackfyre, and no color change with the example of longclaw (burned with a body (wight) but not blood), just throwing it out there.

Tobho Mott tried to add color to Ice. It was supposed be Lannister crimson but turned out to be a darker red. I don't think Valyrian steel gets darker and darker whenever it is reforged.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'll agree Aegon and his heirs were willing to accept other religions and even embrace them. But I don't know if he dismissed them as false or not. By the time the Targs become pious they seem to have lost some Valyrian traditions/knowledge.

Pretty much, yeah. Or they handed their children to the Faith to raise them - like Alysanne and Jaehaerys did with their daughters Maegelle (who eventually became a septa) and Saera.

31 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I would be careful to draw Aline between first men and andals. First men houses seem to have pretty consistent burial customs. Andals I totally accept could be all over the place.

In a sense the Tullys are also First Men. Their rites could go back to pre-Andal days. Such a family traditions can be very ancient.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

Non-obvious. Alyssa, Jaehaerys and Alysanne were suspected to have gone to Essos. Rhaena could not be described as having gone "as far as she could" at Fair Isle, since she could have flown past Asshai. If she had reasons to prefer hiding her children and submitting to summons to any place of exile, these reasons needed to be explained in detail.

Well, take it up with George. The rumor that Alyssa and the children fled to Essos doesn't mean they actually ever went there, and their deeds have no bearing on anything Rhaena did. What we can say is that she apparently had no intention to leave the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Perhaps she didn't fear that Maegor would actually harm her, perhaps she just didn't want to go. Perhaps George wasn't thinking all that straight when he was writing the piece. Considering the plot holes the latter is not all that unlikely.

Rhaena searching refuge in Dorne or Essos is actually a scenario that should have come up.

[The Grey Wolf]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, take it up with George. The rumor that Alyssa and the children fled to Essos doesn't mean they actually ever went there, and their deeds have no bearing on anything Rhaena did. What we can say is that she apparently had no intention to leave the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros. Perhaps she didn't fear that Maegor would actually harm her, perhaps she just didn't want to go. Perhaps George wasn't thinking all that straight when he was writing the piece. Considering the plot holes the latter is not all that unlikely.

Rhaena searching refuge in Dorne or Essos is actually a scenario that should have come up.

Should I add this to the inconsistencies thread?

[Jaak]

Look at the kind of diplomatic missions Visenya and Rhaenys did undertake during Conquest. Show up alone, ahead of armies (too slow to follow and held up by defenders). Visenya to Eyrie (successful), Rhaenys to Sunspear (rejected, but she got to fly back without an immediate fight).

It would have been an obvious option for Aegon/Rhaena to prepare Rhaena for just this kind of thing. Aegon and Quicksilver stay close to their army, returning to camp daily, ready to report and resist any enemy action. Rhaena undertaking the long distance diplomatic/reconnaissance missions.

One possible outcome of Visenya and Vhagar showing up at Eyrie, one woman against tens or hundreds of guards, might have been for Sharra to smile and receive Visenya... and when Visenya dismounts Vhagar and turns her back, Visenya ends up with a bunch of crossbow bolts in her back. In which case Vhagar might fly away, not knowing exactly who to burn. Well, neither Eyrie nor Sunspear tried that.

Catelyn led a diplomatic mission to Renly with a few tens of horsemen. One of many days, including camping. She had no previous experience of such - during Robellion she had stayed home and travelled to Winterfell at leisure in peacetime after war.

If Rhaena was worried about hostile or treacherous reception at a diplomatic mission, she could have planned to play it safe. Alight atop castle battlements, do her talking at distance of several yards from dragonback ready to take wing again if she sees anyone preparing to rush her or produce bows, refuse to dismount, eat or sleep, then fly ten leagues away to a spot far from nearest castles or villages to eat and sleep, and fly back to her camp to report and eat a more balanced meal for a change.

The camp of Aegon and Rhaena was thousands of men. Prepared to fight. Many of them nobles with money to spare for equipment. They were used to hunt, to travel, to wage wars, to pitch camps in wartime. The camp must have included artisans. If Rhaena foresaw a need to camp rough to avoid having to hazard the hospitality of Tyrell or Baratheon on her - or just provide her willing hosts with a plausible deniability if Maegor or Visenya asked why she had not been seized, shot or poisoned on her visit - then the plentiful noblemen could have easily spared her advice on what to pack in terms of hunting knives and roasting spits for fresh hunted venison or fresh requisitioned mutton. And the knives and spits themselves. And the leatherworkers at the camp could have cobbled together bags - backpacks, saddlebags, etc - for her supplies of tools, money, food and twins.

All these preparations for diplomatic/reconnaissance missions would have served her a good stead when the needs became that of exile or long term evasion as an outlaw.

[Lord Varys]

19 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Should I add this to the inconsistencies thread?

I guess you could. It is sort of an inconsistency, although nothing I think that has to be addressed.

18 hours ago, Jaak said:

Look at the kind of diplomatic missions Visenya and Rhaenys did undertake during Conquest. Show up alone, ahead of armies (too slow to follow and held up by defenders). Visenya to Eyrie (successful), Rhaenys to Sunspear (rejected, but she got to fly back without an immediate fight).

Vhagar and Meraxes were insanely huge dragons. Dreamfyre not so much. And it is not that the people of the Vale or the Dornishmen had any idea what a dragon might do if its rider was killed or badly treated.

18 hours ago, Jaak said:

It would have been an obvious option for Aegon/Rhaena to prepare Rhaena for just this kind of thing. Aegon and Quicksilver stay close to their army, returning to camp daily, ready to report and resist any enemy action. Rhaena undertaking the long distance diplomatic/reconnaissance missions.

The ruling Targaryens wouldn't do all that many 'diplomatic mission'. King Aegon and Prince Aenys would mount their dragons, arrive at some castle, village, town, or city of their subjects, and the people there would fall over themselves in their attempts to welcome them, feed them, entertain them, etc.

It would have been the same with Aenys' children. They were groomed to rule not to be diplomats or anything.

18 hours ago, Jaak said:

One possible outcome of Visenya and Vhagar showing up at Eyrie, one woman against tens or hundreds of guards, might have been for Sharra to smile and receive Visenya... and when Visenya dismounts Vhagar and turns her back, Visenya ends up with a bunch of crossbow bolts in her back. In which case Vhagar might fly away, not knowing exactly who to burn. Well, neither Eyrie nor Sunspear tried that.

See above.

18 hours ago, Jaak said:

Catelyn led a diplomatic mission to Renly with a few tens of horsemen. One of many days, including camping. She had no previous experience of such - during Robellion she had stayed home and travelled to Winterfell at leisure in peacetime after war.

A small traveling party isn't comparable to a young woman alone on her dragon.

18 hours ago, Jaak said:

The camp of Aegon and Rhaena was thousands of men.

There is no textual evidence of any kind indicating that Princess Rhaena and Dreamfyre accompanied Prince Aegon and his army.

[Jaak]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Vhagar and Meraxes were insanely huge dragons. Dreamfyre not so much. And it is not that the people of the Vale or the Dornishmen had any idea what a dragon might do if its rider was killed or badly treated.

It´s not that they had had an opportunity to find out since. One dragonrider had been killed, and she with her dragon. Anyone confronting Dreamfyre or Quicksilver would have been as uncertain.

And Visenya at Eyrie took the risk to dismount. If Rhaena was nervous that her hosts might take the risk to try and find out, she could have stayed in the saddle, ready to take off again if startled while talking.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The ruling Targaryens wouldn't do all that many 'diplomatic mission'. King Aegon and Prince Aenys would mount their dragons, arrive at some castle, village, town, or city of their subjects, and the people there would fall over themselves in their attempts to welcome them, feed them, entertain them, etc.

Actually, what we hear of is "royal progresses". On one progress, Aegon was accompanied by 1000 knights... meaning even more non-knights.

Something which slowed down the King and his dragon to the pace of the progress.

It would have been an option for Aegon, Visenya, Aenys to go on tours without a progress. Show up alone, with just a dragon. This way, they could be much faster.

The only time we hear of travelling without progress was Aenys getting news of Aegon I-s death at Highgarden - and then he did leave by dragon. Whereas when Aegon/Rhaena´s progress was interrupted by an emergency at Crakehall, they expressly did not fly away.

Flying alone to a trouble spot to, for example, suppress a rebellion or resolve a feud as a high level authority against whom it would be hard to appeal and who besides dragonfire would because of the authority be able to mobilize local land forces is a kind of action which might make sense. Resolve problems, and the possibility of such a course of events would act as a consideration to motivate resolution that averts a need for such a resolution.

For example, imagine another Bracken-Blackwood feud, ravens fly... and suddenly Lord Bracken is forced to plead:

"You are just a 15 year old girl. And you have had just 15 minutes to look around and think of a 1500 year old problem. I am in the right. I can explain everything to His Grace your daddy. Just give me enough time, please!"

And she replies.

"Yes. I am neither Queen Regnant (my father is the King), nor heiress to the Throne (my little brother is), nor an adult yet.

I´ll fly around your neighbours now and instruct them to call their banners. And I will not take your bread, salt or bed tonight, nor that of your opponents the Blackwoods, but will eat and sleep at Twins (and see if their stablehands are as good as rumour has it). Tomorrow I will be back. You therefore will have till tomorrow to write down your side of story (specifics of time here). Use thick tough parchment and do not seal it shut. Dreamfyre flies well, I will have both hands free on most of my return flight, and will read your letter and that of Blackwoods on my return flight. Father will read both your letters with his Small Council, six maesters, Maegor and Visenya. And by the time I´ve rested, they´ll have decided how to proceed. Then we´ll fly back to you.

Depending on what the King in Council has to conclude from your letter and those of Blackwoods, my word of mouth and informed witnesses available on Dragonstone, you´ll be seeing King, a minimum of two dragons (Dreamfyre and Quicksilver) but up to all four, and the banners of your neighbours (that I will have called today, remember!) the evening after tomorrow.

You better write well today, so that it would be just the two dragons. Consider that Blackwoods have the same chance of writing their letter.

Reflect that you have troubled a princess to fly to you twice (I´m an ignorant girl now, but I´ll join my daddy on the second flight so I don´t stay as ignorant, and for the same reason you are not to seal your letter), a king to fly to you and your neighbours to call their banners. So that´s to consider in what you write now or tell when Daddy comes.".

How would Lord Bracken react to this actually happening to him?

How would Lord Bracken react if his maester reminds him that it might happen to him, on grounds that it has actually happened to someone else?

How would Lord Bracken react of the person reminding him that this is a possible precedent is Lord Blackwood or someone on Blackwood behalf?

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It would have been the same with Aenys' children. They were groomed to rule not to be diplomats or anything.

With wide lordly autonomy, these are related.

 

[Khaleesi1975]

@Lord Varys why do you say that this is fake history? It could be that the inconsistencies between TSOTD and TWOIAF can be explained by Maester Yandel's errors and misinformation.  He says on page 128 of TWOIAF that Rhaegar marches to the Trident with 6 of the 7 Knights of the Kinsguard ( all except Jaime. But we know for a fact (from AGOT) that Ser Authur Dayne died at the TOJ. I think details of TWOIAF  has to be taken with s grain of salt as it was written as the perspective and research of a Maester (with all the biases of the Citadel) compared to the word of GRRM.

[Ran]

It's all "fake history" because that's what George calls it.

But that particular thing from P. 128 is not an error: the full sentence is that Rhaegar went to the Trident with all but one of the Kingsguard who had remained in King's Landing, and then proceeds to list Barristan, Jon Darry, and Lewyn Martell; with Jaime being the one who was left behind. That's accurate.

But you're certainly right that all the information in TWoIaF has to be understood as being written from a maester. And in fact, the same is true with "The Rogue Prince", "The Princess and the Queen", "The Sons of the Dragon" -- they are GRRM presenting a history as written by a maester who was not a contemporary of the events.

[Lord Varys]

Just to clarify - I'm fine with the way it is written, and I actually complained that there too few intentional inconsistencies/mistakes/versions because TSotD isn't written with the same amount of detail as some of the later pieces.

The issue I have with the thing is that there are quite a few real mistakes in the story, and quite a few plot holes and other things that simply don't make a lot of sense. Especially the Quicksilver thing but also quite a few other things.

I'd not mind if the historian writing this would point out those things, telling us that his sources don't help his resolve this - but then I'd expect to at least present us with some theories as of what might have happened there.

Nobody has to know for a fact as to how the Poor Fellows could trap Aegon and Rhaena in a castle while they had at least one dragon, how Aegon acquired Quicksilver, why Rhaena and Dreamfyre weren't with him at the Gods Eye, how it is that Alyssa could hide herself and her two children and two dragons when Rhaena and Dreamfyre could not, how Vermithor and Silverwing were a real threat to Balerion, etc. - but a decent historian (and an author actually putting a lot of thought in the piece) would think about those mysteries, and offer solutions or at least speculations.

I do, too. And I'm neither Gyldayn, nor Yandel, nor George R. R. Martin.

The first can be answered by the Faith Militant killing Aegon's original dragon and injuring/driving away Dreamfyre so that Aegon and Rhaena could not fly away.

The second can be answered by someone claiming Quicksilver and flying her west to support Aegon and Rhaena (a good candidate for that would be a Velaryon Kingsguard - or even better a bastard son of Aenys I who had joined his Kingsguard) who then died there saving Aegon and/or the pregnant Rhaena from an assassin sent by Maegor/Tyanna so that Aegon himself can mount his late father's dragon.

The third could be explained by either Rhaena - due to the birth of the twins - and/or Dreamfyre being still too weak to fly to war (if George/Lord Baratheon entertaining the idea that 12-year-old Alysanne on Silverwing could challenge Maegor and Balerion then it is insane to assume that Rhaena/Dreamfyre would not have accompanied Aegon to war if they were able to do so).

The fourth is very hard. The best idea I could come up that would make sense is that Alyssa and her children fled Dragonstone on dragonback rather than by ship. That way they would be mobile and could hide on some small isles in Blackwater Bay, Shipbreaker Bay, and the Narrow Sea at large. The idea that the children were dragonless at that point makes little sense in my opinion, and neither does the idea that the sailors transporting not only the Queen Dowager and her young children but also two not-so-small dragons (assuming they would have agreed to take dragons aboard at all, which is a huge stretch) would not talk about that.

And the final thing could be helped by having Queen Alyssa herself becoming a dragonrider - by claiming Vhagar in the wake of Visenya's death. Vhagar, Vermithor, and Silverwing together could not only have challenged but could also have killed both Maegor and Balerion. The idea that the rebels would have been keen to risk the life of their young pretender and his little sister by challenging Balerion is pretty much insane, especially against as experienced and ruthless a dragonrider as Maegor. If GeorgeAnne/Ran & Linda want to make the possibility that Maegor may have committed suicide to make real sense - and I actually like that possibility - then the notion that Maegor may have believed he was done must make sense if you put yourself in his shoes.

And if you are in Maegor Targaryen's shoes then you are never done. Not while you control a beast as powerful as Balerion. What I - what anyone with Maegor's temperament and personality would do if he controlled a creature of that power - is not to cut his wrists but to mount his dragon and kill as many of the traitors as he could before the other dragonriders overwhelmed him. And the chances are not that bad that he could have killed most (or even all of them) before he himself died - assuming he would have died at all.

Another idea could be that Balerion actually abandoned Maegor - or refused to fly or bear him - for some strange reason. Then he would have been really done. But with the dragon at his command he had always better options than suicide. Just look at what Prince Aemond did after he lost the Iron Throne and KL and his entire army. Or take Prince Daemon. He throws his life away in the end. But does he meekly cut his wrists at Maidenpool? No, he takes Aemond and Vhagar with him. What do you think Maegor would have done when he felt all hope was lost? Cut his wrists and let his father's throne kill him? Or mount Balerion one last time to burn Storm's End and see whether he can take House Targaryen with him when he dies?

But if he knew he had to face Vhagar, Dreamfyre, Vermithor, and Silverwing this may have given him pause. Especially if Vhagar was significantly faster than Balerion at this point.