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Stranger Things Season 2: Three Musketeers really are the WORST (Spoilers)

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7 hours ago, mormont said:

Whenever I read someone saying something to this effect, all I can hear is 'I don't really understand what politics is'. Because nothing in society can be separated from politics, or vice versa.

Everything is political already. Everything. You yourself go on to talk about how Hollywood is a 'cesspool'. Do you not understand that's a political statement? Do you not think that calling for people to talk about race less is a political statement?

So anyway, that's why it's a good thing that ST2 addresses an important part of Lucas' identity and the society he lives in, even in small ways.

Well. I don't agree with your statement. Nothing in society can be separated from politics? Humans have been around for way longer then we even thought of political systems, so your argument doesn't cut it. You're basically saying, it just is that way. One of the reasons the political climate today is as toxic today is because no side can hande a regular debate anymore. Maybe when politics zip into every little tihing, even into how kids dress for halloween, maybe that is part of the problem. But hey, screw that, that's not marxist, so no need to even listen to that argument. 

Me thinking Hollywood is a cesspool have nothing to do with my political views. It's less to do about class, and more about human behavior. 

I agree, I have no problem with how they treated it this season. They even made it humorous, which was fresh. The problem I see it is when every little cultural thing has to be measured and if it doesn't make the pc checklist then it's gonna be one hell of a debacle. 

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Shawn Levy confirmed that Dr. Brenner is alive:

https://screenrant.com/stranger-things-season-2-brenner-alive/

One thing I really want to see on the show now is a Russian character. Not necessarily a spy, but someone connected to whatever the USSR is doing on their own end about the Upside Down. It would also be an interesting perspective, to show what it was like to be a Russian living in America at the height of the Cold War.

I don't think the russians have discovered it yet. It seems pretty contained to Hawkins as of the latest season. Although I guess that could be worked in the show if they wanted it. If you're interested about russians during the Cold War you can check out The Americans. One of the best shows in recent years and the first four seasons are brilliant storytelling and character work. A bit different to Stranger Things though. 

And why is Brenner alive? I'm beginning to question the plan the writers has for this. It's never a good thing to bring in villains who already have a complete arc. Running out of stories, because he was in no way that compelling so we need him another season either. 

And as another poster said, why did they make a whole story arc about redemption for Barb? I don't think Nancy and Jonathans storyline this season worked at all. The show seems to work best when it focuses on Eleven and the kids, with some side arcs weaved in. And I agree with everyone about Steve. He was one of the highlights this season, and especially his interactions with Dustin.  

 

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The justice for Barb arc closed down Hawkins lab. So one major arc, in effect, was brought to its conclusion, so I am expecting a bit of a transition phase in the first part of season 3.

I'm also hoping for the story to take place in summer next season, even though that would remove the school element, they could have the main kids attend a summer camp, and thus incorporate other classic 80s stuff.

Edited by Corvinus

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12 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

Well. I don't agree with your statement. Nothing in society can be separated from politics? Humans have been around for way longer then we even thought of political systems, so your argument doesn't cut it. You're basically saying, it just is that way. One of the reasons the political climate today is as toxic today is because no side can hande a regular debate anymore. Maybe when politics zip into every little tihing, even into how kids dress for halloween, maybe that is part of the problem. But hey, screw that, that's not marxist, so no need to even listen to that argument. 

Every word in this paragraph is a political argument. The notion that you want to keep politics out of it because you disagree with the political values of the people who want to bring their politics into it is, itself, a political point of view and a fairly strong one, at that.

 

12 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

I agree, I have no problem with how they treated it this season. They even made it humorous, which was fresh. The problem I see it is when every little cultural thing has to be measured and if it doesn't make the pc checklist then it's gonna be one hell of a debacle. 

So...why did you bring it up as a bad thing then? That's how this conversation started.

12 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

And as another poster said, why did they make a whole story arc about redemption for Barb? I don't think Nancy and Jonathans storyline this season worked at all. The show seems to work best when it focuses on Eleven and the kids, with some side arcs weaved in. And I agree with everyone about Steve. He was one of the highlights this season, and especially his interactions with Dustin.  

 

They didn't redeem Barb; she didn't have any need of redemption. They gave her justice, because she was innocent and killed by evil people and no one knew or was punished for it. Eleven got her justice, Will got his - but Barb had not - until Nancy and Jonathan. Also, on a side note, that was one of the only legitimately clever things the whole gang did all season. That you're unaware of the #JusticeForBarb thing doesn't make it nonexistent, it just makes you ignorant. 

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Shawn Levy confirmed that Dr. Brenner is alive:

https://screenrant.com/stranger-things-season-2-brenner-alive/

One thing I really want to see on the show now is a Russian character. Not necessarily a spy, but someone connected to whatever the USSR is doing on their own end about the Upside Down. It would also be an interesting perspective, to show what it was like to be a Russian living in America at the height of the Cold War.

Well, Chernobyl is 1986 ;)

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50 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

 

And as another poster said, why did they make a whole story arc about redemption for Barb? I don't think Nancy and Jonathans storyline this season worked at all. The show seems to work best when it focuses on Eleven and the kids, with some side arcs weaved in. And I agree with everyone about Steve. He was one of the highlights this season, and especially his interactions with Dustin.  

 

The show works best when the characters are kept together, which is the opposite of what they did for the first seven episodes of this season. I definitely feel like they spread the plot too thin -- I was disappointed with how little Nancy and Jonathan got to do, and for four kids who are all apparently best friends, the boys didn't spend that much time together. I hope the plot is a bit more focused next season (I also hope that they think of a new way to defeat the monster. That's twice now that El's had to use her powers to blast it through a portal while the rest of them go around setting fires).

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26 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Every word in this paragraph is a political argument. The notion that you want to keep politics out of it because you disagree with the political values of the people who want to bring their politics into it is, itself, a political point of view and a fairly strong one, at that.

 

So...why did you bring it up as a bad thing then? That's how this conversation started.

They didn't redeem Barb; she didn't have any need of redemption. They gave her justice, because she was innocent and killed by evil people and no one knew or was punished for it. Eleven got her justice, Will got his - but Barb had not - until Nancy and Jonathan. Also, on a side note, that was one of the only legitimately clever things the whole gang did all season. That you're unaware of the #JusticeForBarb thing doesn't make it nonexistent, it just makes you ignorant. 

I didn't bring it up as a bad thing. I just questioned if it's necessary to always debate these subjects. Sometimes we need to do it, and it's important, but sometimes maybe we don't need to think about current politics when we're enjoying art. Go to youtube and type in Denzel Washington or Morgan Freeman so you can hear the argument from their side too maybe. 

Poor choice of word there. Not redemption, but a closure arc then. I'm aware of the debate about Barb, but why it's become such a thing is beyond me. A minor, uninteresting character that they spent way too much time on in season 2 just because it's mentioned online. It's never a good sign when creators starts to pander to what people discuss online. And btw, Barb wasn't killed by evil people, she was taken by a supernatural force. Which is kind of a thing when you make a show with supernatural elements. 

And last time I checked ignorance isn't defined by how much you are updated about twitter. But I guess that's where you spend a lot of time so you can bring down the patriarchy once and for all.  

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1 minute ago, JonArryn said:

I didn't bring it up as a bad thing. I just questioned if it's necessary to always debate these subjects. Sometimes we need to do it, and it's important, but sometimes maybe we don't need to think about current politics when we're enjoying art. Go to youtube and type in Denzel Washington or Morgan Freeman so you can hear the argument from their side too maybe. 

You did bring it up as a bad thing, explicitly so. I can quote you if you like. 

As to whether or not it's necessary to debate them - again, the only one who wanted to debate this was you. So you tell me - is it necessary? Because for Lucas - a minority in a very lily-white area of rural Indiana - part of his character is (reasonably) going to be affected by being a minority. That's who he is, just like Dustin's teeth coming in late affect him somewhat. 

1 minute ago, JonArryn said:

Poor choice of word there. Not redemption, but a closure arc then. I'm aware of the debate about Barb, but why it's become such a thing is beyond me. A minor, uninteresting character that they spent way too much time on in season 2 just because it's mentioned online. It's never a good sign when creators starts to pander to what people discuss online. And btw, Barb wasn't killed by evil people, she was taken by a supernatural force. Which is kind of a thing when you make a show with supernatural elements. 

Barb was killed because the lab used Eleven, and then attempted to cover everything up. Hawkins Lab is the thing responsible for Barb's death - it is the original sin. More importantly, no one outside of the gang knew it was a wrongful death, and many thought that it wasn't even a death at all. Part of the justice is exposing the coverup around Barb. 

1 minute ago, JonArryn said:

And last time I checked ignorance isn't defined by how much you are updated about twitter. But I guess that's where you spend a lot of time so you can bring down the patriarchy once and for all.  

Ignorance is defined by not knowing something. This appears to be something you're exceptionally good at. Jon is a good choice of handle for you on this board.

Though again - for someone who is not interesting in discussing politics, you are very keen to go immediately to a politicized attack. 

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2 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

And btw, Barb wasn't killed by evil people, she was taken by a supernatural force. Which is kind of a thing when you make a show with supernatural elements.   

Not directly, but the actions of the "Department of Energy" people led to the monster being released, and they were aware it was out there and said nothing. So they're responsible for her death just as they were for Will's disappearance. (Which reminds me how did the "it was some other kid's body we mistook for Will's" cover story even fly? I guess you could argue it was because of what the investigator was saying about people not wanting to see the scary truth. Still it seems really unlikely that no one would question who this other kid was and why they were so sure it was Will. Not to mention why the other kids parents never reported him missing?)

I don't think they spent much time on Barb at all, they just focused on Nancy's guilt about her part in the cover up. Which seems like a natural thing to do with her character after season one.  

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6 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

You did bring it up as a bad thing, explicitly so. I can quote you if you like. 

As to whether or not it's necessary to debate them - again, the only one who wanted to debate this was you. So you tell me - is it necessary? Because for Lucas - a minority in a very lily-white area of rural Indiana - part of his character is (reasonably) going to be affected by being a minority. That's who he is, just like Dustin's teeth coming in late affect him somewhat. 

Barb was killed because the lab used Eleven, and then attempted to cover everything up. Hawkins Lab is the thing responsible for Barb's death - it is the original sin. More importantly, no one outside of the gang knew it was a wrongful death, and many thought that it wasn't even a death at all. Part of the justice is exposing the coverup around Barb. 

Ignorance is defined by not knowing something. This appears to be something you're exceptionally good at. Jon is a good choice of handle for you on this board.

Though again - for someone who is not interesting in discussing politics, you are very keen to go immediately to a politicized attack. 

I did bring it up. As to whether we should debate them, of course. But do whites need to write more scripts for black people or do black people themselves need to tell their own stories? I don't know if every colored person constantly want to talk about racism. It's less about race, and more a question of culture. If you look for things to get annoyed about, you will find them. If you want to find a reason to fight when you have a night out, you will. But that doesn't mean that every person goes around throwing punches. 

It's the same thing with female roles. There's a lot of whining that there's not many roles for women, but many of the ones who criticize aren't willing to put in all the hard work and become screenwriters or directors. You think Quentin just got handed Reservoir Dogs? What you see there is 15 years of basically only watching and studying movies and then he gets to make a film. If there's such a need for more female characters, then they should start making them. Rey is a great example of how not to do it, but I don't wanna go in further on that. 

19 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The show works best when the characters are kept together, which is the opposite of what they did for the first seven episodes of this season. I definitely feel like they spread the plot too thin -- I was disappointed with how little Nancy and Jonathan got to do, and for four kids who are all apparently best friends, the boys didn't spend that much time together. I hope the plot is a bit more focused next season (I also hope that they think of a new way to defeat the monster. That's twice now that El's had to use her powers to blast it through a portal while the rest of them go around setting fires).

 Agreed. Although I felt like this season showed even more that the group dynamic is Will/Mike and Dustin/Lucas. Or at least Will and Mike seem to be the closest, maybe because of shared experience in season 1. Will is closely connected to Eleven so maybe it's that aspect. 

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17 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

 

 Agreed. Although I felt like this season showed even more that the group dynamic is Will/Mike and Dustin/Lucas. Or at least Will and Mike seem to be the closest, maybe because of shared experience in season 1. Will is closely connected to Eleven so maybe it's that aspect. 

Makes sense, Paladin/Cleric and Bard/Ranger.

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4 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Makes sense, Paladin/Cleric and Bard/Ranger.

Uh, Will isn't a Paladin. He's Will the Wise. He shoots fireballs. He's clearly a mage. 

24 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

I did bring it up. As to whether we should debate them, of course. But do whites need to write more scripts for black people or do black people themselves need to tell their own stories? I don't know if every colored person constantly want to talk about racism. It's less about race, and more a question of culture. If you look for things to get annoyed about, you will find them. If you want to find a reason to fight when you have a night out, you will. But that doesn't mean that every person goes around throwing punches. 

Again, only person throwing punches was you. If you don't want to debate it, cool beans. 

24 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

It's the same thing with female roles. There's a lot of whining that there's not many roles for women, but many of the ones who criticize aren't willing to put in all the hard work and become screenwriters or directors. You think Quentin just got handed Reservoir Dogs? What you see there is 15 years of basically only watching and studying movies and then he gets to make a film. If there's such a need for more female characters, then they should start making them. Rey is a great example of how not to do it, but I don't wanna go in further on that. 

Again, someone who doesn't want to talk about the politics sure does bring up a lot of political things here. 

 

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34 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

 Agreed. Although I felt like this season showed even more that the group dynamic is Will/Mike and Dustin/Lucas. Or at least Will and Mike seem to be the closest, maybe because of shared experience in season 1. Will is closely connected to Eleven so maybe it's that aspect. 

It was clear since season 1. Mike is the most upset when he learns about Will's fake death, and him having a crush on Eleven clearly occurs because it allows him to fill the gap left by Will's disappearance.

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26 minutes ago, Astromech said:

Makes sense, Paladin/Cleric and Bard/Ranger.

Nice. Hadn't thought of it that way. 

 

20 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Again, only person throwing punches was you. If you don't want to debate it, cool beans. 

Again, someone who doesn't want to talk about the politics sure does bring up a lot of political things here. 

 

I did bring it up. But you seemed intent on continuing it. I was done but then you came in on your mighty horse, doing your tirade about how everything in society is about politics.  

 

9 minutes ago, Pilusmagnus said:

It was clear since season 1. Mike is the most upset when he learns about Will's fake death, and him having a crush on Eleven clearly occurs because it allows him to fill the gap left by Will's disappearance.

Sure. Maybe just more obvious this season. Every time they were together in the beginning they were two and two. Maybe also because of Dustin and Lucas competition about Max. 

Regarding your point about Tolkien in the last thread. I think his work transcends politics so people don't care what his opinions were. For starters, it was different times, and secondly, the story and world is so interesting that those things don't really matter. That's my take on it. 

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3 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

Nice. Hadn't thought of it that way. 

Except it's wrong.

3 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

I did bring it up. But you seemed intent on continuing it. I was done but then you came in on your mighty horse, doing your tirade about how everything in society is about politics.  

I didn't say that.

3 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

Regarding your point about Tolkien in the last thread. I think his work transcends politics so people don't care what his opinions were. For starters, it was different times, and secondly, the story and world is so interesting that those things don't really matter. That's my take on it. 

Again, you bring up politics when telling people they shouldn't discuss politics.

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30 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Uh, Will isn't a Paladin. He's Will the Wise. He shoots fireballs. He's clearly a mage. 

Didn't Mike re-classify them when he was shouting at Max, and accidentally said Eleven is the mage? I didn't catch what the others are supposed to be.

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3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Except it's wrong.

I didn't say that.

Again, you bring up politics when telling people they shouldn't discuss politics.

I'm not bringing up politics. It was in response to Pilusmagnus post in the last thread. Go back and check it if you want to add something. Now you just seem to want to pick a fight or something. I wouldn't mind having a constructive debate about these things, but I don't think we're gonna find some common ground here any way. 

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1 minute ago, JonArryn said:

I'm not bringing up politics. It was in response to Pilusmagnus post in the last thread. Go back and check it if you want to add something. Now you just seem to want to pick a fight or something. I wouldn't mind having a constructive debate about these things, but I don't think we're gonna find some common ground here any way. 

You continue to bring up politics. From Lucas bringing up race to Tolkien to Rey to the dearth of minorities and women in entertainment to PC culture to the backhanded slap of 'dismantling the patriarchy' - that's all on you. And then you say 'but I don't want to talk about it' because, I assume, you're pretty cowardly about it and know you don't have anything to stand on, or you're really interested in virtue signaling. It doesn't appear to be because you have anything constructive or interesting to say about it. 

I'm glad that the show took some potshots at 80s shitty culture too - from Max clearly not having the high score because she's a girl and girls don't play video games, to Lucas getting pissed about not being Venkman (and seriously, Winston suuuuucks) to some of the horrible gender politics that Mike's family is involved in (which go back to S1). They've managed to do all of these things reasonably organically without making it the focus of the story but still making it part of the characters and their vibes. It's not quite the deconstruction of 80s culture that I might like, but the Duffers aren't interested in tearing down the 80s - they want to showcase their love of it, so it makes sense they wouldn't go that far.

But if Billy ends up being the Evil Gay Antagonist, that'll suck. 

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2 hours ago, Corvinus said:

I'm also hoping for the story to take place in summer next season, even though that would remove the school element, they could have the main kids attend a summer camp, and thus incorporate other classic 80s stuff.

Summer would also allow for a Fellowship of the Ring/Stand by Me type quest/road-trip across the country. Something that would take up most of the season, not just them walking on train tracks to go to the junkyard. I would love that, especially if Steve's bat is coming along.

 

23 minutes ago, JonArryn said:

Regarding your point about Tolkien in the last thread. I think his work transcends politics so people don't care what his opinions were. For starters, it was different times, and secondly, the story and world is so interesting that those things don't really matter. That's my take on it. 

Tolkien was widely read by the counterculture movements in the 1960s, so although it should not be reduced to that, it is indeed a significant political object of study. I raised it because I do think Stranger Things is involved in a similar dynamic: a representation of an idealized conservative past that still pushes progressive ideas. (Kalbear's last post does shed some light upon that, so thank you.)

The problem is that you seem to confuse "political" and "militant". The fact that everything is political doesn't mean that everything is necessarily either liberal or conservative. But every work of art raises questions regarding how we organize as a society, which is the definition of political.

Edited by Pilusmagnus

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17 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Didn't Mike re-classify them when he was shouting at Max, and accidentally said Eleven is the mage? I didn't catch what the others are supposed to be.

Yes he did. Mike= Paladin, Will = Cleric, Dustin = Bard, Lucas = Ranger, Eleven = Mage

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