What determines a houses levy?

[direpupy]

16 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

They may be independent now, they weren't before though. Also there are several houses that later get sworn to other houses; Freys started out as petty lords so all their vassals are an example, those northern lords under Manderlys, who only had the mouth of the White Knife at start, Tolletts an Andal house that fought against Royces now being vassals are several examples. There are also examples of the opposite; Current Hornwood territory actually belonged to Bolton Kings so they may have been vassals who have become greater lords themselves.

 

 

Cranes of Red Lake were certainly bannermen to Osgreys and since their territory extended to the sea and Old Oak being close to the Westerlands, it is very likely Osgreys had their allegiance also.

 

Also compare them to Mullendores for example, bannermen to Hightowers but also lords of power themselves or Beesburys, also Hightower bannermen but descended from Garth like the other two.

A Wardenship is not a Lordship so the Cranes and the Oakhearts where not and never where vassals to House Osgrey, a Wardenship only becomes active in time of war, in peacetime its an honorary title that gives no actual power.

For instance the Wardenships of the North, South, East and West each commands a quarter of the Army's of Westeros in case of war and each can call upon the Lords in there Wardenship in the name of the King if the Realm is  threatened but that does not mean that the Warden of the East traditionally the Lord Arryn is the liegelord of the houses in the Crownlands even do they do fall under his Wardenship.

So they where not sworn to house Osgrey just compelled to answer his summons in the name of the Gardener kings in time of war.

And as i said the lands of house Osgrey was carved up by several houses, we know one castle (Coldmoat) passed to the Rowans who gave it to the Webbers, but they Osgreys had four castle's. The old Osgrey lands lay exactly within the triangle of the seats of the houses Rowan, Crane and Oakheart so with these being the principal houses of this region the are the most likely candidates to have carved up the lands. Like you said there lands extended to the coast so most likely the Oakhaerts took there lands there, and the Cranes likely took the northern part of there lands, the remainder which is arguably the largest part would have gone to the Rowans.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 hours ago, direpupy said:

A Wardenship is not a Lordship so the Cranes and the Oakhearts where not and never where vassals to House Osgrey, a Wardenship only becomes active in time of war, in peacetime its an honorary title that gives no actual power.

For instance the Wardenships of the North, South, East and West each commands a quarter of the Army's of Westeros in case of war and each can call upon the Lords in there Wardenship in the name of the King if the Realm is  threatened but that does not mean that the Warden of the East traditionally the Lord Arryn is the liegelord of the houses in the Crownlands even do they do fall under his Wardenship.

So they where not sworn to house Osgrey just compelled to answer his summons in the name of the Gardener kings in time of war.

And as i said the lands of house Osgrey was carved up by several houses, we know one castle (Coldmoat) passed to the Rowans who gave it to the Webbers, but they Osgreys had four castle's. The old Osgrey lands lay exactly within the triangle of the seats of the houses Rowan, Crane and Oakheart so with these being the principal houses of this region the are the most likely candidates to have carved up the lands. Like you said there lands extended to the coast so most likely the Oakhaerts took there lands there, and the Cranes likely took the northern part of there lands, the remainder which is arguably the largest part would have gone to the Rowans.

Osgreys were marshalls of the Northmarches, is a Marshal the same as a Warden in Westeros?

Here is another marshal title

Quote

None chose to honor Davos with a name. The maester was the first to speak. "You stand before Wyman Manderly, Lord of White Harbor and Warden of the White Knife, Shield of the Faith, Defender of the Dispossessed, Lord Marshal of the Mander, a Knight of the Order of the Green Hand," he said. "In the Merman's Court, it is customary for vassals and petitioners to kneel."

We see both the Marshal title and Warden title used together, I'd think they represent different offices unless Targaryens decided Warden sounded better for the same thing.

 

In any case, since it were the Osgreys who were Marshals of the Northmarches obviously they were a lot more powerful than both the Cranes and Oakhearts, which are both close to the Westerlands. In fact Cranes are closer to the Westerlands than Coldmoat is and though we don't know if Old Oak is closer or further, Westerlanders have managed to invade as far as Old Oak in a previous war so they aren't too far away either.

 

Also here are information from two appendixes (directly copied from wiki so sorry for links)

AGOT

Principal houses sworn to Highgarden are Vyrwel, Florent, Oakheart, Hightower, Crane, Tarly, Redwyne, Rowan, Fossoway, and Mullendore.

 

Lord Leyton's bannermen:

• TOMMEN COSTAYNE, Lord of the Three Towers,
• ALYSANNE BULWER, Lady of Blackcrown, a girl of eight,
• MARTYN MULLENDORE, Lord of Uplands,
• WARRYN BEESBURY, Lord of Honeyholt,
• BRANSTON CUY, Lord of Sunflower Hall,

 

As you can see in one Mullendores are a principal house sworn directly to Tyrells and in the other they are Hightower vassals. Who is to say we won't see Cranes and Oakhearts listed as Vassals of Rowans in TWOW?

[direpupy]

41 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Osgreys were marshalls of the Northmarches, is a Marshal the same as a Warden in Westeros?

Here is another marshal title

We see both the Marshal title and Warden title used together, I'd think they represent different offices unless Targaryens decided Warden sounded better for the same thing.

 

In any case, since it were the Osgreys who were Marshals of the Northmarches obviously they were a lot more powerful than both the Cranes and Oakhearts, which are both close to the Westerlands. In fact Cranes are closer to the Westerlands than Coldmoat is and though we don't know if Old Oak is closer or further, Westerlanders have managed to invade as far as Old Oak in a previous war so they aren't too far away either.

Yes Marshal is a military title, even more so then Warden. A warden is also responsible with keeping the peace within his wardenship a Marshal is only responsible for responding to external treats so has even less actual power in peacetime.

Yes they Osgreys where at one point the most powerful of the houses in the Northmarch but by how much is unknown and the point was that a military title does not make you someone's Lord. 

Also the whole reason this discussion started was because you thought the Houses Crane and Oakheart where vassals to House Rowan which they are not.

Rowan, Oakheart and Crane are the houses that took over the lands of house Osgrey, the Rowans took over 1 of 4 castles for sure (Coldmoat) that leaves 3 for others and seeing the position of Coldmoat and taking into account it was the Osgreys main castle the Rowans took over at least 1 other, but the coastal region is in the hands of the Oakhearts and the most northern part of what was ones the Northmarch is clearly in the hands of house Crane so obviously they took over they other 2.

http://www.digitalattic.org/home/read/asoiaf/_photo/maps/_orig/south.gif

If you look at this map you will see that Old Oak (Oakhearts) Red Lake (Crane) and Goldengrove (Rowan) form a triangle, the Osgrey lands probably lay in between those three and possibly included some lands further south below this triangle. So you can see that since the house Osgrey lost its lands to other's (plural so more then one other house) the houses that are powerful enough in the current days to have been the ones doing so are these three houses.

The Rowans are certainly powerful and seem to have taken over most of they Osgrey lands so they are certainly one of the most powerful houses in the Reach, maybe even the second most powerful like you suggested. But i doubt they exceed 5000 men since they most certainly do not control all of the North-Western part of the Reach as you where suggesting.

And in the case of the Marshal title of house Manderly you should also take into account that they claim to be Marshal of the Mander, so not only is this is one of there old titles from the reach, but even back in the days they actually lived in the Reach they where not Lords of they entire Mander, after all Highgarden itself actually lies on the Mander and the Gardners as Kings certainly where not sworn to the Manderly's 

[direpupy]

56 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Also here are information from two appendixes (directly copied from wiki so sorry for links)

AGOT

Principal houses sworn to Highgarden are Vyrwel, Florent, Oakheart, Hightower, Crane, Tarly, Redwyne, Rowan, Fossoway, and Mullendore.

 

Lord Leyton's bannermen:

• TOMMEN COSTAYNE, Lord of the Three Towers,
• ALYSANNE BULWER, Lady of Blackcrown, a girl of eight,
• MARTYN MULLENDORE, Lord of Uplands,
• WARRYN BEESBURY, Lord of Honeyholt,
• BRANSTON CUY, Lord of Sunflower Hall,

 

As you can see in one Mullendores are a principal house sworn directly to Tyrells and in the other they are Hightower vassals. Who is to say we won't see Cranes and Oakhearts listed as Vassals of Rowans in TWOW?

I know the Mullendore's where moved to being a vassal to house Hightower, this was done in the shakeup of houses between AGOT and AFFC but the Cranes and Oakhearts where not changed in status in that shakeup. 

The shakeup itself came from GRRM realizing there where to few houses for such a large realm.

He has not done such a shakeup since.

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

I know the Mullendore's where moved to being a vassal to house Hightower, this was done in the shakeup of houses between AGOT and AFFC but the Cranes and Oakhearts where not changed in status in that shakeup. 

The shakeup itself came from GRRM realizing there where to few houses for such a large realm.

He has not done such a shakeup since.

If it's the final state of the houses than what you say of the Osgrey land being carved up makes sense.

[direpupy]

44 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

If it's the final state of the houses than what you say of the Osgrey land being carved up makes sense.

Well you can never be sure, GRRM might change things again if he thinks its nessesary. But for now this is the state of afairs and with the books outside the main series and especialy TWOIAF confirming the status of most houses this does seem to be the final state.

[cpg2016]

On 11/7/2017 at 7:54 AM, Free Northman Reborn said:

f the average Reach lord. So if they can raise say 12,000 men, then the 2nd most powerful Reach lord can raise 4,000, based on that statement. That would likely be the Redwynes.  The average Reach lord would be quite a bit lower than that. I still think that the Florents are an average strength House, but we don't have enough information to be sure. 

Well, aside from the Tyrells.  And the Redwynes wouldn't be next; while they are the next wealthiest, it is quite clear that their strength is at sea, and not in landed knights.

The Florents are actually likely to be a weaker House in the Reach.  Hear me out; we know the strongest Houses are often march lords, for the obvious reason that they play a more important role militarily than others.  Houses like the Oakhearts and Rowans in the Northwest, and the Tarlys and Mullendores on the Dornish border, are likely to be far stronger than the safely-positioned Florents.  We know in the Stormlands that the most powerful vassal houses are the ones on the Dornish border; I see no reason this shouldn't also apply as a rule of thumb in the Reach.

But to the main point.  The strength of a House is built on the number of knights it can field, essentially.  Or heavy cavalry, to include the North who don't have knighthood.  The soil is more fertile in the Reach, so they have more fiefs that can support a knight; also, the Reach is meaningfully larger than any other Kingdom but the North, and also has far more arable land as a percentage of it's gross area.  The Westerlands and the Vale may be fertile, but much of those kingdoms is mountainous and given over to hills.  The North is obviously fairly desolate due to poor soil quality, and the Stormlands are mostly made up of the Rainwood.  The Riverlands are equally fertile but much smaller.  Also the constant chaos in the Riverlands probably resets population growth every so often.  Wealth can impact this, which is why the Hightowers and Freys hit so hard (though I still think the House Frey strength was an early world-building mistake); the Westerlands also probably have a more professional and powerful force, since they can support more retainers in a kind of bastard-feudalism way than a normal noble house from another Kingdom.

[Free Northman Reborn]

54 minutes ago, cpg2016 said:

Well, aside from the Tyrells.  And the Redwynes wouldn't be next; while they are the next wealthiest, it is quite clear that their strength is at sea, and not in landed knights.

The Florents are actually likely to be a weaker House in the Reach.  Hear me out; we know the strongest Houses are often march lords, for the obvious reason that they play a more important role militarily than others.  Houses like the Oakhearts and Rowans in the Northwest, and the Tarlys and Mullendores on the Dornish border, are likely to be far stronger than the safely-positioned Florents.  We know in the Stormlands that the most powerful vassal houses are the ones on the Dornish border; I see no reason this shouldn't also apply as a rule of thumb in the Reach.

But to the main point.  The strength of a House is built on the number of knights it can field, essentially.  Or heavy cavalry, to include the North who don't have knighthood.  The soil is more fertile in the Reach, so they have more fiefs that can support a knight; also, the Reach is meaningfully larger than any other Kingdom but the North, and also has far more arable land as a percentage of it's gross area.  The Westerlands and the Vale may be fertile, but much of those kingdoms is mountainous and given over to hills.  The North is obviously fairly desolate due to poor soil quality, and the Stormlands are mostly made up of the Rainwood.  The Riverlands are equally fertile but much smaller.  Also the constant chaos in the Riverlands probably resets population growth every so often.  Wealth can impact this, which is why the Hightowers and Freys hit so hard (though I still think the House Frey strength was an early world-building mistake); the Westerlands also probably have a more professional and powerful force, since they can support more retainers in a kind of bastard-feudalism way than a normal noble house from another Kingdom.

It all depends on how many Houses they have. For example, the Wiki lists about 72 Reach Houses, many that he have never heard of before. We don't know if that is all of them, and we don't know how many of them are vassals to vassals and thus already included in the strength of a primary vassal House.

But, if it ends up that the Reach has 50 or more primary Houses, then the average strength will be 2000 or less, give their total strength of 100,000.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

21 hours ago, direpupy said:

For instance the Wardenships of the North, South, East and West each commands a quarter of the Army's of Westeros in case of war and each can call upon the Lords in there Wardenship in the name of the King if the Realm is  threatened but that does not mean that the Warden of the East traditionally the Lord Arryn is the liegelord of the houses in the Crownlands even do they do fall under his Wardenship.

I won't lie, the idea of Mace Tyrell calling upon Doran and Oberyn Martell to summon their men and fall under his command amuses me. Enough more so if they were bound by law, code and honor to do so.

[Adam Yozza]

10 hours ago, Ralphis Baratheon said:

I won't lie, the idea of Mace Tyrell calling upon Doran and Oberyn Martell to summon their men and fall under his command amuses me. Enough more so if they were bound by law, code and honor to do so.

That would be kinda funny actually. That being said, the warden titles were created at the end of the conquest. Really, the only potential threat from the south is Dorne itself.