U.S. Politics 2017: Yes Virginia, There Is a Santa Claus

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Agree with Ormond here. I'd say Statutory Rapist is the more appropriate/accurate term for Moore in this case. 

Seriously, why the fuck does it matter? Are we somehow besmirching the honor of pedophiles by comparing them to Moore or something like that?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Just now, Kalbear said:

Seriously, why the fuck does it matter? Are we somehow besmirching the honor of pedophiles by comparing them to Moore or something like that?

Definitions matter. Is referring to him as a Statutory Rapist cutting him slack?

If a psychologist who specializes in human sexuality says the word doesn't fit, I'm inclined to believe them.

[Kalbear]

It just seems like such an odd thing to quibble about - whether a child rapist or a pedophile is going to be a US Senator. It seems like precisely the kind of quibbling Breitbart is going to do in order to give people justification for voting for him.

[Sivin]

I'm with Kal on this one. If you're a pedo fucking creep, you're a fucking creep. 

[Kalbear]

Hey, since we're well-actuallying the definition, take heart! Roy Moore didn't do anything wrong, since the age for a minor in Alabama was only 12 at the time! See, everything's good, it's all fine, nothing to see here.

https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/928734581271953408

[The Anti-Targ]

44 minutes ago, Sword of Doom said:

Roy Moores public contact number for his campaign.  
 

(334) 549-9985

They told me he denies it, they stand by him and that Jesus forgives. 
 

If he's denying it then why does he need Jesus' forgiveness?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Hey, since we're well-actuallying the definition, take heart! Roy Moore didn't do anything wrong, since the age for a minor in Alabama was only 12 at the time! See, everything's good, it's all fine, nothing to see here.

https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/928734581271953408

Goddamn, Alabama. 12? Really? 13 is legal in Alabama? 

[Mudguard]

5 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

Goddamn, Alabama. 12? Really? 13 is legal in Alabama? 

As a general rule, I don't take tweets, facebook postings, and other social media posts as fact.  

I'd want a reputable source to corroborate the age of consent in Alabama at the time.

[Kalbear]

Just now, Mudguard said:

As a general rule, I don't take tweets, facebook postings, and other social media posts as fact.  

I'd want a reputable source to corroborate the age of consent in Alabama at the time.

I honestly don't know if that's an accurate age of consent in Alabama in 1979, either. That really isn't my point; my point is that this is where they're actually willing to go with it in order to justify it. 

[Mudguard]

Just now, Kalbear said:

I honestly don't know if that's an accurate age of consent in Alabama in 1979, either. That really isn't my point; my point is that this is where they're actually willing to go with it in order to justify it. 

There's a lot of trash on the internet.  As a group, I don't think the Republican party is pushing this narrative.  From what I've seen, most are calling for him to step aside while this plays out.

[Kalbear]

5 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

There's a lot of trash on the internet.  As a group, I don't think the Republican party is pushing this narrative.  From what I've seen, most are calling for him to step aside while this plays out.

Really? That's not what I've seen at all so far. Of the 15 Alabama state legislators and executives contacted, none asked for him to resign, and 4 actively supported voting for him even if it was proven to have happened as reported. 

Only one US senator - McCain - has said that he should step down without rider; all others have said the 'if true' thing. 

And then we got the awesome comparison above from another Alabama rep, saying that it's not that bad because it's like Joseph and Mary. 

ETA: good summary from 538:

https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/928715594458832901

[Mudguard]

3 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Really? That's not what I've seen at all so far. Of the 15 Alabama state legislators and executives contacted, none asked for him to resign, and 4 actively supported voting for him even if it was proven to have happened as reported. 

Only one US senator - McCain - has said that he should step down without rider; all others have said the 'if true' thing. 

And then we got the awesome comparison above from another Alabama rep, saying that it's not that bad because it's like Joseph and Mary. 

ETA: good summary from 538:

https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/928715594458832901

I've only been reading the headlines on CNN and NBCNews, so my exposure has likely been different from yours.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

14 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

As a general rule, I don't take tweets, facebook postings, and other social media posts as fact.  

I'd want a reputable source to corroborate the age of consent in Alabama at the time.

That's a good point. According to this article that outlines Moore's er, misadventures, the legal age of consent in Alabama in 1979 was 16, same as it is today.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/roy_moore_accused_of_sexual_mi.html

 

From the article: The legal age of consent in Alabama, then and now, is 16. Under Alabama law in 1979, and today, a person who is at least 19 years old who has sexual contact with someone between 12 and 16 years old has committed sexual abuse in the second degree. Sexual contact is defined as touching of sexual or intimate parts. The crime is a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in jail.

The law then and now also includes a section on enticing a child younger than 16 to enter a home with the purpose of proposing sexual intercourse or fondling of sexual and genital parts. That is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

In Alabama, the statute of limitations for bringing felony charges involving sexual abuse of a minor in 1979 would have run out three years later, and the time frame for filing a civil complaint would have ended when the alleged victim turned 21, according to Child USA, a nonprofit research and advocacy group at the University of Pennsylvania.

Corfman never filed a police report or a civil suit.

[Ormond]

45 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Sorry; is child rapist better? Or maybe  child molester? What would you prefer?

Child molester seems to be what we are talking about in this case.

And it's also better because it focuses on behavior. Motives for crimes are a separate issue from the crime itself. There is more than one possible motive for having sexual contact with a child.

 

[The Anti-Targ]

2 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Hey, since we're well-actuallying the definition, take heart! Roy Moore didn't do anything wrong, since the age for a minor in Alabama was only 12 at the time! See, everything's good, it's all fine, nothing to see here.

https://twitter.com/existentialfish/status/928734581271953408

If they are saying he didn't break any law by engaging in consensual sexual conduct with a 14 year old in 1979 in Alabama, then it seems by the letter of the law they are right.

So the question is: was it consensual? And the other question is should there be a morality test for elected office whereby if you have done things that are morally dodgy but not illegal you can be excluded from elected office? There are plenty of example of people who have done morally dodgy things (such as having adulterous affairs and texting dick pics) that are not illegal and they've been hounded out of office. But then there are examples of people who have done morally dodgy things and they've not been forced from office, or even lost an election because of said morally dodgy behaviour.

By what objective moral standard is consensual sex between a 14 year old girl and an older male necessarily a contemptable and punishable act? Age of consent is 14 in several countries including a handful of European countries (i.e. not wildly different culturally speaking). So at the end of the day, we are talking about a number that is in the statute books. If you comply with that number, and there is consent what business is it of anyone else to cast moral judgments? If people want to claim that it still matters and there should be serious political ramifications despite it being legal (assuming consent). then that's fine, but put forward sound arguments and not just "ewwwwww gross, and BTW he's a Republican".

And in the context of what was legal at the time, calling him a paedophile actually is problematic and the correct use of words is important. 

Prove that he's a rapist in law and by all means let the political castrations commence. Otherwise, what the hell are people doing getting distracted over this when there are much bigger social and political fish to fry? If this turns into another big legal nothing burger it's yet another finger in the eye of the left, and the finger with be from the left's own hand.

[Mudguard]

14 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Really? That's not what I've seen at all so far. Of the 15 Alabama state legislators and executives contacted, none asked for him to resign, and 4 actively supported voting for him even if it was proven to have happened as reported. 

Only one US senator - McCain - has said that he should step down without rider; all others have said the 'if true' thing. 

And then we got the awesome comparison above from another Alabama rep, saying that it's not that bad because it's like Joseph and Mary. 

ETA: good summary from 538:

https://twitter.com/_cingraham/status/928715594458832901

Also, I don't have a problem with the "if true" caveat.  The story was just breaking, so I don't think it's unreasonable to not automatically assume Moore's guilt, but at the same time be very concerned.  As more information comes out, we'll see how they respond.

Personally, I think he's probably guilty based on the number of accusers in the story.  Now that the story is out, I wouldn't be surprised to see others come forward.  That's my gut reaction, but I can't say yet that he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and should be thrown in jail right now.

[The Anti-Targ]

10 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That's a good point. According to this article that outlines Moore's er, misadventures, the legal age of consent in Alabama in 1979 was 16, same as it is today.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/roy_moore_accused_of_sexual_mi.html

 

From the article: The legal age of consent in Alabama, then and now, is 16. Under Alabama law in 1979, and today, a person who is at least 19 years old who has sexual contact with someone between 12 and 16 years old has committed sexual abuse in the second degree. Sexual contact is defined as touching of sexual or intimate parts. The crime is a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in jail.

The law then and now also includes a section on enticing a child younger than 16 to enter a home with the purpose of proposing sexual intercourse or fondling of sexual and genital parts. That is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

In Alabama, the statute of limitations for bringing felony charges involving sexual abuse of a minor in 1979 would have run out three years later, and the time frame for filing a civil complaint would have ended when the alleged victim turned 21, according to Child USA, a nonprofit research and advocacy group at the University of Pennsylvania.

Corfman never filed a police report or a civil suit.

Well if that's the case most of my previous post is not relevant. Statutory rape is on the table. And WTF is up with the right and it's fake newsery trying to claim AoC was 12 at the time? Outrageous! I mean, sure, lie about Donald Trump not paying hookers to piss on him in Russia (allegedly) since that's a "no harm" situation. But to lie about what was legally child molestation in 1979, to what depths will they sink?

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Mudguard said:

Also, I don't have a problem with the "if true" caveat.  The story was just breaking, so I don't think it's unreasonable to not automatically assume Moore's guilt, but at the same time be very concerned.  As more information comes out, we'll see how they respond.

Personally, I think he's probably guilty based on the number of accusers in the story.  Now that the story is out, I wouldn't be surprised to see others come forward.  That's my gut reaction, but I can't say yet that he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and should be thrown in jail right now.

That's fine, but it's not remotely 'people are asking him to step aside'. No one from the Republican party save John McCain has asked him to step aside. 

[LongRider]

12 minutes ago, The Anti-Targ said:

So the question is: was it consensual?

According to her, no, it was not.

Quote

Days later, she says, he picked her up around the corner from her house in Gadsden, drove her about 30 minutes to his home in the woods, told her how pretty she was and kissed her. On a second visit, she says, he took off her shirt and pants and removed his clothes. He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear.

“I wanted it over with — I wanted out,” she remembers thinking. “Please just get this over with. Whatever this is, just get it over.” Corfman says she asked Moore to take her home, and he did.

I doubt this will hurt him.  Like the 'pussy grabber' tape it happened years ago and unlike the tape, it's her word against his, years later.  Unfortunately, he'll get away with it and shitheads will still vote for the scumbag.

[Mudguard]

22 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

That's a good point. According to this article that outlines Moore's er, misadventures, the legal age of consent in Alabama in 1979 was 16, same as it is today.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2017/11/roy_moore_accused_of_sexual_mi.html

 

From the article: The legal age of consent in Alabama, then and now, is 16. Under Alabama law in 1979, and today, a person who is at least 19 years old who has sexual contact with someone between 12 and 16 years old has committed sexual abuse in the second degree. Sexual contact is defined as touching of sexual or intimate parts. The crime is a misdemeanor punishable by up to one year in jail.

The law then and now also includes a section on enticing a child younger than 16 to enter a home with the purpose of proposing sexual intercourse or fondling of sexual and genital parts. That is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.

In Alabama, the statute of limitations for bringing felony charges involving sexual abuse of a minor in 1979 would have run out three years later, and the time frame for filing a civil complaint would have ended when the alleged victim turned 21, according to Child USA, a nonprofit research and advocacy group at the University of Pennsylvania.

Corfman never filed a police report or a civil suit.

So I went to the original story and it actually provided a citation to the 1975 code.  Looks like one provisional dealt specifically with sexual abuse of a child less than 12 years old, while another provision deals with the age of consent, which was 16. 

Quote

Section 13A-6-69.1

Sexual abuse of a child less than 12 years old.

(a) A person commits the crime of sexual abuse of a child less than 12 years old if he or she, being 16 years old or older, subjects another person who is less than 12 years old to sexual contact.

(b) Sexual abuse of a child less than 12 years old is a Class B felony.

(Act 2006-575, p. 1512, §1.)

 

Section 13A-6-70

Lack of consent.

(a) Whether or not specifically stated, it is an element of every offense defined in this article, with the exception of subdivision (a)(3) of Section 13A-6-65, that the sexual act was committed without consent of the victim.

(b) Lack of consent results from:

(1) Forcible compulsion; or

(2) Incapacity to consent; or

(3) If the offense charged is sexual abuse, any circumstances, in addition to forcible compulsion or incapacity to consent, in which the victim does not expressly or impliedly acquiesce in the actor's conduct.

(c) A person is deemed incapable of consent if he is:

(1) Less than 16 years old; or

(2) Mentally defective; or

(3) Mentally incapacitated; or

(4) Physically helpless.

(Acts 1977, No. 607, p. 812, §2330.)

So Moore wouldn't be charged with sexual abuse of a 12 year old, but could be charged with sexual abuse of a minor, if this was reported when it happened.  The portions of the story Kalbear linked to about the age of consent appears to be incorrect.