Is Robb Stark a prodigy?

[Varysblackfyre321]

10 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

No, it was foolish. What played out proved it.

It was largely motivated by a familial attachment he felt to Theon, Robb saw him as an older brother, but Robb forgot Theon wasn't actually his brother he was his fathers hostage whose expected loyalty's wasn't just toward house Stark. 

Picking him of all people wasn't wise.

[divica]

24 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

No, it was foolish. What played out proved it.

And robb keeping theon would stop balon? I don t remember very well the interactions between theon and balon, but I have the idea that balon might be willing to sacrífice theon to have his revenge...

And even if he wasn t there are several ways for balon to rescue theon with the confusion of war and armies marching...

8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It was largely motivated by a familial attachment he felt to Theon, Robb saw him as an older brother, but Robb forgot Theon wasn't actually his brother he was his fathers hostage whose expected loyalty's wasn't just toward house Stark. 

Picking him of all people wasn't wise.

Any other person and balon might imprison him...

Sending theon is a gesture of good faith. The idea is good because theon would influence balon to support robb and isn t someone balon would dismiss. Besides, as I said above if robb thought of theon as a hostage then he should have kept him in winterfell and well guarded. With him involved in the army it would be easy for balon to rescue him somehow...

[Varysblackfyre321]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

Any other person and balon might imprison him...

Unlikely, imprisoning another country's delegate can easily be more trouble than it's worth. You want to know the other's position and what they're willing to do even if you expectation to accept any offer. 

And he could have detained Theon as well if he didn't switch sides

21 minutes ago, divica said:

Sending theon is a gesture of good faith.

Still pretty dumb considering Theon is literally the only leverage they have to dissuade the IB from start attacking them they're most hunted prey,

The idea is good because theon would influence balon to support robb and isn t someone balon would dismiss

 or Balon can convince Theon to switch sides. The wolves took two sons of his(never mind they were responding to the IB's secesion and his sons died in combat-a worthy death) and took  Theon prisoner, he's unlikely to be swayed by virtue of his brainwashed son( I know he's not actually brainwashed), saying his captors and the people who killed his son are the people he should support.

Besides, as I said above if robb thought of theon as a hostage then he should have kept him in winterfell and well guarded. With him involved in the army it would be easy for balon to rescue him somehow..

 Doesn't matter what Robb thought Theon was a hostage pure and simple. And how would Balon rescue Theon while he's in Robb's army?  Like, Robb and Theon were around each other through out the day and his disappearance would be noted.

[Julia H.]

18 hours ago, Daenerys Targaryen's slave said:

Thing is, Robb couldn't handle the pressure. 

Yeah, he wasn't Tywin who was able to watch the death of his grandchild without blinking an eye, then used the event to get rid of an unloved and somewhat embarrassing son. Robb felt grief when hearing of the death of his little brothers. Totally human. Other than that, I think he handled the pressure rather well. 

[Bernie Mac]

16 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

Yeah, he wasn't Tywin who was able to watch the death of his grandchild without blinking an eye, then used the event to get rid of an unloved and somewhat embarrassing son.

eh? Kevan is convinced of his guilt, Jaime has to ask him point blank if he was guilty and Tyrion can not even come up with an alternative killer. Everyone thought it was Tyrion, just because we, as book readers, know he was innocent does not change the fact that he was the prime suspect with not only the most motive but the means to do it. 

Had Tyrion been such an embarrassment he never would put him on the Small Council or marry him to the heiress of the North. 

 

19 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

. Other than that, I think he handled the pressure rather well. 

He also fucked up on the punishment for Karstark. He should have listened to Cat and Edmure and been more lenient. And possibly listened to his mother again when she advised him to seek peace on the way to the Twins and he refused point blank.  

[Julia H.]

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

eh? Kevan is convinced of his guilt, Jaime has to ask him point blank if he was guilty and Tyrion can not even come up with an alternative killer. Everyone thought it was Tyrion, just because we, as book readers, know he was innocent does not change the fact that he was the prime suspect with not only the most motive but the means to do it. 

Had Tyrion been such an embarrassment he never would put him on the Small Council or marry him to the heiress of the North. 

 

I don't think Jaime would have freed Tyrion if he had really believed him guilty. I have certain reservations about Tywin, and I do think getting rid of Joffrey and Tyrion seemed kind of convenient to him - although he had indeed used Tyrion while he needed him. Anyway, he either did not realize the extent of Tyrion's loyalty to the Lannister family or he just used a tragedy in his family in the way he found it most convenient - not a sentimental person, that Tywin. (All right, it wasn't easy to love Joffrey, granddad or not, I'll give that to  him.)

13 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

He also fucked up on the punishment for Karstark. He should have listened to Cat and Edmure and been more lenient. And possibly listened to his mother again when she advised him to seek peace on the way to the Twins and he refused point blank.  

Sure, Robb made grave mistakes, I agree about that. I don't think that the mistakes you list fall into the category of "not being able to handle the pressure" though. 

[Bernie Mac]

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

I don't think Jaime would have freed Tyrion if he had really believed him guilty.

But he is also not convinced of his innocence, and this is from Tyrion's biggest supporter. 

Jaime handed him the ring of keys. "I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?"

The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. "Are you sure you want to know?" asked Tyrion.

30 minutes ago, Julia H. said:

 

I have certain reservations about Tywin, and I do think getting rid of Joffrey and Tyrion seemed kind of convenient to him - although he had indeed used Tyrion while he needed him. 

 

Hardly convenient. There is zero logical reason why he would sacrifice Joffrey or look upon that as good. Even if you want to believe that Tywin has no emotional attachment to any of his family from a pragmatic point of view he only has two 'sons' of Robert Baratheon; his hold on the Throne is much weaker with no 'spare' and given that Joffre was of an age to start creating heirs of him living would have been very important. 

Same goes for Tyrion. Not only did he waster the Sansa marriage on Tyrion but her name would be sullied by Joffrey's death as well meaning Tywin's plans for the North would have evaporated. 

Finally, someone had assassinated his grandson. He'd want to know who and why as Tommen could be next. 

 

 

[divica]

20 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

But he is also not convinced of his innocence, and this is from Tyrion's biggest supporter. 

Jaime handed him the ring of keys. "I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?"

The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. "Are you sure you want to know?" asked Tyrion.

Hardly convenient. There is zero logical reason why he would sacrifice Joffrey or look upon that as good. Even if you want to believe that Tywin has no emotional attachment to any of his family from a pragmatic point of view he only has two 'sons' of Robert Baratheon; his hold on the Throne is much weaker with no 'spare' and given that Joffre was of an age to start creating heirs of him living would have been very important. 

Same goes for Tyrion. Not only did he waster the Sansa marriage on Tyrion but her name would be sullied by Joffrey's death as well meaning Tywin's plans for the North would have evaporated. 

Finally, someone had assassinated his grandson. He'd want to know who and why as Tommen could be next. 

 

 

If tywin wanted to kill joffrey he would have waited a year for margery to have a baby. Then tywin could become regent, keep tommen for other marriage aliances and still have a lannister king. 

[Julia H.]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

But he is also not convinced of his innocence, and this is from Tyrion's biggest supporter. 

Jaime handed him the ring of keys. "I gave you the truth. You owe me the same. Did you do it? Did you kill him?"

The question was another knife, twisting in his guts. "Are you sure you want to know?" asked Tyrion.

Hardly convenient. There is zero logical reason why he would sacrifice Joffrey or look upon that as good. Even if you want to believe that Tywin has no emotional attachment to any of his family from a pragmatic point of view he only has two 'sons' of Robert Baratheon; his hold on the Throne is much weaker with no 'spare' and given that Joffre was of an age to start creating heirs of him living would have been very important. 

Same goes for Tyrion. Not only did he waster the Sansa marriage on Tyrion but her name would be sullied by Joffrey's death as well meaning Tywin's plans for the North would have evaporated. 

Finally, someone had assassinated his grandson. He'd want to know who and why as Tommen could be next. 

 

 

That can all be true. But it is also true that Joffrey was like a time bomb with his stupid, impulsive actions, having done and still being capable of doing a lot of harm. Also, what if he suspected the Tyrells and their motivation for killing Joffrey but knew that he still needed the alliance? I'm not convinced in either way. I know, however, that Tywin is conspicuously detached and practical throughout those events - it's not only the death of his not so amiable grandson, it is also the obvious distress of his daughter, the idea that his own son became a kinslayer. Besides, if he had wanted to keep the family's name clean, he could have dealt with Tyrion privately, he didn't need to make such a show of his supposed crime, he could have given him the benefit of the doubt at least. I wouldn't be surprised if he found some perverse pleasure in publicly humiliating Tyrion. (There is also the rather tasteless idea of bedding his freshly convicted son's mistress.) But, of course, it's impossible to know. 

[A Ghost of Someone]

23 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It was largely motivated by a familial attachment he felt to Theon, Robb saw him as an older brother, but Robb forgot Theon wasn't actually his brother he was his fathers hostage whose expected loyalty's wasn't just toward house Stark. 

Picking him of all people wasn't wise.

No, not sure at all.

[A Ghost of Someone]

22 hours ago, divica said:

And robb keeping theon would stop balon? I don t remember very well the interactions between theon and balon, but I have the idea that balon might be willing to sacrífice theon to have his revenge...

And even if he wasn t there are several ways for balon to rescue theon with the confusion of war and armies marching...

Any other person and balon might imprison him...

Sending theon is a gesture of good faith. The idea is good because theon would influence balon to support robb and isn t someone balon would dismiss. Besides, as I said above if robb thought of theon as a hostage then he should have kept him in winterfell and well guarded. With him involved in the army it would be easy for balon to rescue him somehow...

BalonwS ready to attack but didn't until Theon got there. Maybe he was anyway. However any potential leverage robb night have had over balon should not have been risked.