Harrenhal As Seen Through A Little Crannogman’s Eyes Part 2

[LynnS]

2 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Is a person who uses all their ability cheating?  

If you used someone else's abilities, would that be cheating?  Does a grown man who has been shamed by three squires want the help of a girl once again; or does he want to restore his honor himself? 

[Curled Finger]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

If you used someone else's abilities, would that be cheating?  Does a grown man who has been shamed by three squires want the help of a girl once again; or does he want to restore his honor himself? 

Ah!  I see I completely misunderstood.  

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah!  I see I completely misunderstood.  

I guess I've been looking all over the text for some explanation why or how someone as small as Howland could defeat three knights in full armor.  Maybe that's the thing.  He's a much smaller target than the knights and the knights are somewhat limited in movement by their armor.    Perhaps, that's an advantage in the end.    He prays to the gods for courage and his prayer is answered in the morning? 

[LynnS]

There is one other thing about this story that I would like to bring up before I butt out.  I think it's significant that Bran brings up the subject of green men.
 

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"He passed beneath the Twins by night so the Freys would not attack him, and when he reached the Trident he climbed from the river and put his boat on his head and began to walk. It took him many a day, but finally he reached the Gods Eye, threw his boat in the lake, and paddled out to the Isle of Faces."

"Did he meet the green men?"

"Green men are good too."

"They are," she agreed, but said no more about them. "All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave. His skin boat was just where he'd left it, so he said his farewells and paddled off toward shore. He rowed and rowed, and finally saw the distant towers of a castle rising beside the lake. The towers reached ever higher as he neared shore, until he realized that this must be the greatest castle in all the world."

I don't know what we imagine the green men to be. We're told that they will make an appearance in the next book along with Howland Reed, so I assume they will be men rather than Ents or soldier pines and sentinel trees.  I think it's entirely possible that the Mystery Knight is a green man sent to defend Howland rather than any of the usual suspects.  How would we know a green man to see one?  There must be some defining characterstic.

Quote

To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn’t even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth…

Quote

  A Feast for Crows - Brienne I

Ser Creighton was lost. "Sparrows?"

"The sparrow is the humblest and most common of birds, as we are the humblest and most common of men." The septon had a lean sharp face and a short beard, grizzled grey and brown. His thin hair was pulled back and knotted behind his head, and his feet were bare and black, gnarled and hard as tree roots.

Bran comes to the conclusion that the green men were responsible for the mystery knight's success:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran II

"Are you certain you never heard this tale before, Bran?" asked Jojen. "Your lord father never told it to you?"

Bran shook his head. The day was growing old by then, and long shadows were creeping down the mountainsides to send black fingers through the pines. If the little crannogman could visit the Isle of Faces, maybe I could too. All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

What would it look like to be turned into a knight for a day?

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Hoooodor" came a whimper, from somewhere down below.

And suddenly he was not Bran, the broken boy crawling through the snow, suddenly he was Hodor halfway down the hill, with the wight raking at his eyes. Roaring, he came lurching to his feet, throwing the thing violently aside. It went to one knee, began to rise again. Bran ripped Hodor's longsword from his belt. Deep inside he could hear poor Hodor whimpering still, but outside he was seven feet of fury with old iron in his hand. He raised the sword and brought it down upon the dead man, grunting as the blade sheared through wet wool and rusted mail and rotted leather, biting deep into the bones and flesh beneath. "HODOR!" he bellowed, and slashed again. This time he took the wight's head off at the neck, and for half a moment he exulted … until a pair of dead hands came groping blindly for his throat.

Bran backed away, bleeding, and Meera Reed was there, driving her frog spear deep into the wight's back. "Hodor," Bran roared again, waving her uphill. "Hodor, hodor." Jojen was twisting feebly where she'd laid him down. Bran went to him, dropped the longsword, gathered the boy into Hodor's arm, and lurched back to his feet. "HODOR!" he bellowed.

Meera led the way back up the hill, jabbing at the wights when they came near. The things could not be hurt, but they were slow and clumsy. "Hodor," Hodor said with every step. "Hodor, hodor." He wondered what Meera would think if he should suddenly tell her that he loved her.

This skinchanging episode wasn't initiated by Bran.  He finds himself suddenly inside Hodor in beserker mode.  How did this happen?  Curiously, Coldhands is present; a creature who is suspected of being a green man.

So perhaps Howland was given aid by the green men in a similar fashion in order to be a knight for the day or a green man made an appearance, but my money is on Howland calling on the old gods for assistance and getting it. 

 

 

[Yaya]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

This skinchanging episode wasn't initiated by Bran.

LS:  you are the firer of the synapses:
I like your idea: 
To extrapolate that to the Harrenhal tournament, potentially, someone was "the Hodor" to Howland's doing "the Bran" and someone there was the "Coldhands".
Could Howland had been "the Bran" and "the Coldhands" and we are looking for (as people have already propsed candidates) "the Hodor".   It could be that Howland was all three?

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

"All that winter the crannogman stayed on the isle, but when the spring broke he heard the wide world calling and knew the time had come to leave.

I think we all think he stayed to learn from the Greenmen.  He stayed all that winter - how long was that winter?  And he was a smart one that Crannogman - he learned.
Which is why he could do all three control actions!  Maybe?
(IS THIS WHY THE DRAGON HAS (to have, supposedly) THREE HEADS?)

Why are the Greenman isolated at the Isle of Faces, and are they still there? 
(I mean, I know The PACT was made there, but we don't know much more do we?)
If you look on the map(s) there isn't too much distance (you know, estimating and all) away from Harrenhal & the island and also - both aren't that far away from the Kingsroad.  It's not like it is inaccessible or totally isolated ...

Sorry to post more questions than plausible answers or potential explanations ... I'm going to go re-read

 

 

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Yaya said:

LS:  you are the firer of the synapses:
I like your idea: 
To extrapolate that to the Harrenhal tournament, potentially, someone was "the Hodor" to Howland's doing "the Bran" and someone there was the "Coldhands".
Could Howland had been "the Bran" and "the Coldhands" and we are looking for (as people have already propsed candidates) "the Hodor".   It could be that Howland was all three?

LOL.  Definately Hodor was in peril, at his weakest point; in need of help (as they all were); so somewhat similar to Howland's situation, but not quite as drastic.  If as Brans says, the Green Men have power and Coldhands is a green man (or was before he was wighted);  then Hodor's call for help (whimpering) may have been answered by Coldhands calling Bran into Hodor as the only means for saving the group.  The two of them together are super-charged and Bran has absolutely no fear.  This is not something we have ever seen when Bran consciously skinchanges Hodor.  

It does seem to me that Howland himself is or will become a green man at the time he is introduced to the story.  So asking for help may have been answered in a similar fashion.  Bran certainly seems to think the the green men helped Howland.

I do make a connection between the device on the shield of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Theon's impression of the Winterfell Weirwood laughing; seeing Bran's face in the tree and speaking to him.  Bran thinks that if he could be a knight for one day, it would be enough. It might be Bran who helped Howland.

But how could this be if Bran is not yet even born?  Well, if Bran is able to travel through the weirnet to any tree; then I think it's possible that he can access the Black Gate; a door that opens on the metaphysical plane as much as giving passage through the Wall.  The Gate likely gives him access to the power of the Wall as well.  So then does Bran have access to the God's Eye as well, perhaps the most powerful place.

I think there is a hint that Bran is using the gate when Ghost-Jon talks to Tree-Bran.  The sapling sprouting from rock and growing before Jon's eyes unlike any tree Jon has seen before, also fits the description of the tree Bran sees at the Night Fort.  This is where the question of how a tree relates to time; since Bran is coming to Jon from a place in Bran's future.  Bran also has a dream of this before even leaving the crypts at winterfell; long before he even passes the Wall.  

So the question is whether or not Bran is accessible by someone like Howland once Bran becomes part of the wiernet, or God's Eye or powerful enough to use the Black Gate.  

Wasn't it you that suggested that Old Nan's stories about all the Brandons were essentially telling Bran's story?  I think this idea is very interesting since Bran also says that Old Nan confuses all the Brandons until the become one person.  Isn't this what would happen once Bran becomes part of the weirnet?  That he would access all the memories of previous Brandons as they were his own memory?  Bran would truly be 'the one' Brandon.            

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Curled Finger nice post mi amigo, fascinating thoughts from all involved.

I wonder if the party that Aerys sent after the mystery knight tried looking for him on the Isle of Faces? Obviously it's known as a logistical nightmare to get there but why wouldn't they at least attempt to look for this Knight of The Laughing Tree on the nearby islet that's covered in carved trees?

If the hunting party did go down this route, only to be foiled by the "murders of crows" and "strange currents found in the lake", think of the paranoia the Mad King might have felt upon hearing the later report from whoever had command of the expedition.

 

On 27/01/2018 at 3:16 PM, Seams said:

Alternatively, what if Howland was skinchanging Lyanna? This might be consistent with the subsequent comment from LynnS on this thread.

We know that skinchanging a person is considered to be an abomination, but the squires may have been on the point of killing Howland as they kicked him. Maybe he reached out for the nearest person and brought Lyanna over with her wooden sword to break up the massacre. Once he was in her mind, it became easier for another skinchanger to enter her mind . . . But this might also explain why Ned took Howland along when he sought out Lyanna at the Tower of Joy. If he had skinchanged her, Howland would probably know how to find her and know what was going on in her head.

Can't fault this at all Seams.

I wonder if a Reed/Stark psychic rapport has anything to do with Howland later marrying someone named Jyana (assuming they were not already together during the Rebellion).

On 27/01/2018 at 3:56 PM, LynnS said:

As for Howland's interest in the lizard-lion; I think he's more interested in whether or not Howland came to Bran in his dreams and I wonder if this is in fact how Jojen communicates with Howland.

Hadn't even taken note of that lizard-lion quote until this thread, looks to be pretty significant, judging by the abruptness of Jojen's questioning.

I like your idea of this being Howland's "dream form", like the three eyed crow of the Crannogmen. There's something very disarming about the thought of a talking alligator/Komodo/dinosaur appearing in one's dreams 

Would also dig seeing a real life lizard-lion appear in the books. How do you imagine they look? 

 

 

[LynnS]

7 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Would also dig seeing a real life lizard-lion appear in the books. How do you imagine they look? 

I think alligator/komodo/dinosaur covers it pretty well. LOL

[Yaya]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Wasn't it you that suggested that Old Nan's stories about all the Brandons were essentially telling Bran's story? 

Sadly no, that was some advanced time travel thinker theorist - not I ... I do like the loop that this makes even though I find it very confusing and difficult to understand how it works in the "real" world without making the entire UNIVERSEROS collapse on itself  

[LynnS]

56 minutes ago, Yaya said:

I think we all think he stayed to learn from the Greenmen.  He stayed all that winter - how long was that winter?  And he was a smart one that Crannogman - he learned.
Which is why he could do all three control actions!  Maybe?
(IS THIS WHY THE DRAGON HAS (to have, supposedly) THREE HEADS?)

Without getting too far off track for the thread, I'd say there are hints of three triune gods in the story:  the dragon with three heads (Dany); Trios (Bran) and the Morrigan (Euron).

56 minutes ago, Yaya said:

Why are the Greenman isolated at the Isle of Faces, and are they still there? 
(I mean, I know The PACT was made there, but we don't know much more do we?)
If you look on the map(s) there isn't too much distance (you know, estimating and all) away from Harrenhal & the island and also - both aren't that far away from the Kingsroad.  It's not like it is inaccessible or totally isolated ...

With this I'd say yes they are still on the Isle of Faces although I think at least one of them has left and is on a mission:  The High Sparrow.  It would be quite a twist if this unknown, small man with feet like tree roots, turned out to be Howland.

[Curled Finger]

You are all thinking such excellent thoughts.  I just finished my reread of AGOT yesterday--that only took a month.   It's funny having read this so many times and still finding new and exciting things.  Of course, I can't shout out at all of you because that would be too easy in replying.  We had such insight and imagination and forgotten logic in Part 1 I knew this would bring much more to the surface.    Lyanna and/or Howland skinchanging so prior to the real advent of Bran's powers.   Aerys' motives, lack of base covering and inconsolable anger.   OLC's study with those mysterious green men.   This is great stuff--exactly the sort of conversation that keeps me coming back for more.   In line with some, I've got some catching up to do here, but I wanted to touch on the green men and Isle of Faces just a bit.    

We can't be sure how long OLC stayed on the Isle of Faces, but we know he stayed the duration of the winter with them.   An interesting time to spend in the place where the Pact between 1st Men and COTF was signed.  So who are the green men?   Are they greenseers--eternal, immortal?  Are they a settlement of COTF and 1st Men who just maintain some sort of integration and balance between the races?  We know it's not easy to access the God's Eye.   The elements turn against intruders--yet some few are allowed access.   Howland Reed, OK, that seems to be a good fit in my head canon.   But Adam Velaryon during the Dance of Dragons?   Prince Daemon Targaryan--for any reason?   I'm hoping some of the forum's finest minds (yes, that's all of you!) could use a bit of your skill and talent to find some sort of connection.    What say ye, Detectives?  

[Curled Finger]

On 1/26/2018 at 8:02 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

I don't know that I would go that far

Told you so!   

[Curled Finger]

On 1/27/2018 at 10:35 AM, LynnS said:

I'm just not sure that Howland would need her assistance even to control the horse.  If a green man can ride an elk, surely Howland could control a horse.  I don't know if you have ever done much horse back riding; but the communication is between horse and rider. If Lyanna were controlling the horse, there would be no communication and Howland may as well be riding blind.

 

On 1/27/2018 at 11:12 AM, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, it may or may not be true in the end, but I think our favorite author has left that door open for now. I am OK with however it truly works out to be, honestly.

I read these yesterday and have been pondering, dear Ladies...Certainly our little Crannogman mastered his local magic and perhaps learned new magic with the green men.  Lyanna Stark already had her affinity for horses, surely a talent.   Could it be that because the magic was only yawning and stretching at the time that neither had full control or even full knowledge of their abilities?   They meet in a crisis that affects them both instantly and deeply.   Could this state have ignited some combination of magical forces that neither could anticipate?   Lyanna was undisciplined but OLC could have somehow guided her?   This is pretty spectacular talent and confidence, magic aside.   Could their combined forces have pulled it off?   

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

We can't be sure how long OLC stayed on the Isle of Faces, but we know he stayed the duration of the winter with them.

Isn't it stated somewhere that that winter lasted about 2 years? Or am I making that up? 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Yaya said:

LS:  you are the firer of the synapses:
I like your idea: 
To extrapolate that to the Harrenhal tournament, potentially, someone was "the Hodor" to Howland's doing "the Bran" and someone there was the "Coldhands".
Could Howland had been "the Bran" and "the Coldhands" and we are looking for (as people have already propsed candidates) "the Hodor".   It could be that Howland was all three?

I think we all think he stayed to learn from the Greenmen.  He stayed all that winter - how long was that winter?  And he was a smart one that Crannogman - he learned.
Which is why he could do all three control actions!  Maybe?
(IS THIS WHY THE DRAGON HAS (to have, supposedly) THREE HEADS?)

Why are the Greenman isolated at the Isle of Faces, and are they still there? 
(I mean, I know The PACT was made there, but we don't know much more do we?)
If you look on the map(s) there isn't too much distance (you know, estimating and all) away from Harrenhal & the island and also - both aren't that far away from the Kingsroad.  It's not like it is inaccessible or totally isolated ...

Sorry to post more questions than plausible answers or potential explanations ... I'm going to go re-read

 

 

I love your questions, Yaya.   Sort of turns the idea that Howland Reed's abilities are far greater than we would believe.   If he's able to manifest in dreams and take control of human vessels from thousands of miles remotely that makes him whatever you call the category of magician above wizard.  

I think Harrenhal Part 3 will be a petition to GRRM for explanations!   

[kissdbyfire]

Here, from the WB.

“THE YEAR of the F ALSE S PRING

IN THE ANNALS of Westeros, 281 AC is known as the Year of the False Spring. Winter had held the land in its icy grip for close on two years, but now at last the snows were melting, the woods were greening, the days were growing longer. Though the white ravens had not yet flown, there were many even at the Citadel of Oldtown who believed that winter’s end was nigh.
As warm winds blew from the south, lords and knights from throughout the Seven Kingdoms made their way toward Harrenhal to compete in Lord Whent’s great tournament on the shore of the Gods Eye, which promised to be the largest and most magnificent competition since the time of Aegon the Unlikely.”

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Curled Finger nice post mi amigo, fascinating thoughts from all involved.

I wonder if the party that Aerys sent after the mystery knight tried looking for him on the Isle of Faces? Obviously it's known as a logistical nightmare to get there but why wouldn't they at least attempt to look for this Knight of The Laughing Tree on the nearby islet that's covered in carved trees?

If the hunting party did go down this route, only to be foiled by the "murders of crows" and "strange currents found in the lake", think of the paranoia the Mad King might have felt upon hearing the later report from whoever had command of the expedition.

 

Can't fault this at all Seams.

I wonder if a Reed/Stark psychic rapport has anything to do with Howland later marrying someone named Jyana (assuming they were not already together during the Rebellion).

Hadn't even taken note of that lizard-lion quote until this thread, looks to be pretty significant, judging by the abruptness of Jojen's questioning.

I like your idea of this being Howland's "dream form", like the three eyed crow of the Crannogmen. There's something very disarming about the thought of a talking alligator/Komodo/dinosaur appearing in one's dreams 

Would also dig seeing a real life lizard-lion appear in the books. How do you imagine they look? 

 

Hola Leo!   I couldn't resist.   I bet they look like those legendary 20' alligators lurking in canals and sewers all along the east coast of the US.   Your basic 6' 'gator is a fearsome enough thing!   Yah, this is a cool shiny new thing HR manifesting in dreams as a lizard lion.   Makes me want to pay very close attention to all the animals in dreams I encounter!   

[Curled Finger]

11 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Isn't it stated somewhere that that winter lasted about 2 years? Or am I making that up? 

You got me before I even saw you, Ninja Kiss!   

[LynnS]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

Hola Leo!   I couldn't resist.   I bet they look like those legendary 20' alligators lurking in canals and sewers all along the east coast of the US.   Your basic 6' 'gator is a fearsome enough thing!   Yah, this is a cool shiny new thing HR manifesting in dreams as a lizard lion.   Makes me want to pay very close attention to all the animals in dreams I encounter!   

"Running on leaves" is the one that throws me for a loop unless it's water birds running on water lilies.

[Seams]

5 hours ago, LynnS said:

What would it look like to be turned into a knight for a day?

Interesting question. Here's a possible example:

My poor Florian, she thought, as he wiped his mouth with a floppy sleeve. Dress dark, he'd said, yet under his brown hooded cloak he was wearing his old surcoat; red and pink horizontal stripes beneath a black chief bearing three gold crowns, the arms of House Hollard. "Why are you wearing your surcoat? Joff decreed it was death if you were caught dressed as a knight again, he . . . oh . . ." Nothing Joff had decreed mattered any longer.

"I wanted to be a knight. For this, at least." Dontos lurched back to his feet and took her arm. "Come. Be quiet now, no questions."

ASoS, Sansa V