Sorcerers and Swords

[hiemal]

On 2/28/2018 at 1:43 PM, Seams said:

I'm like Sam Tarley, sitting in the library overnight, watching a mouse chew a path through a book, letting one source lead me to another and then another. So many ideas coming together at once! My head is exploding.

So the pool at Maidenpool, filled with dead bodies instead of maidens, is probably a symbolic "stew" and Jaime and Brienne later sharing a bath is maybe another symbolic "stew" where Jaime and Brienne are united to make that asexual combination of maid and man. Sort of a consomme consummation? 

I really, really like the idea of a sword, crown and musical instrument being a necessary combination to create a complete king or ruler. Maybe this will explain why some guys die soon after being crowned - they didn't realize they needed all three pieces to be a complete king. Or, I don't know - maybe they die when they finally get all three. Or maybe it's like a combination lock: you have to have all three correct items in order to be the real king - you can't wear someone else's crown or use the wrong sword. If you get the correct sword and crown but the wrong song, then you die. (Like playing the game of Clue, where you need to get the correct murderer, weapon and room to solve the mystery and win the game. You are eliminated if one of the three is not right.)

But crowns are also metal circles, and those have seemed really important in different contexts - links of chains or of mail, iron rings in dungeons, slave shackles. So it makes sense to me that a crown would be as important as a sword to creating a trio of worthy people - rulers in this case. (I wonder whether a different metal circle will be necessary to complete a trio of warriors or strangers or maid, mother and crone or other combinations of three?)

Here's a little window into how convoluted thinking can become when trying to sort out a set of GRRM symbols. a good bit of my thinking over the last 24 hours fell back on my old standby, wordplay. I wondered whether the many references to sharp blades could be a hint about your weapon-turned-to-harp idea, or even a harp-as-weapon interpretation.

Most of my thinking about the word "sharp" had been prompted by Bran noticing that all the Stark statues in the Winterfell crypt showed either "sharp" or "shaggy" lords and kings, so I went back to re-read an old post about that. Not surprisingly, that sharp/shaggy thread explores the idea of shaving and haircuts - the moments when shagginess and sharpness come together.

But I was struck by something new: people with shaved heads being compared to skulls. Here's an example:

"The realm knows Jaime Lannister as a beardless knight with long golden hair. A bald man with a filthy yellow beard may pass unnoticed. I'd sooner not be recognized while I'm in irons."

The dagger was not as sharp as it might have been. Cleos hacked away manfully, sawing and ripping his way through the mats and tossing the hair over the side. The golden curls floated on the surface of the water, gradually falling astern. As the tangles vanished, a louse went crawling down his neck. Jaime caught it and crushed it against his thumbnail. Ser Cleos picked others from his scalp and flicked them into the water. Jaime doused his head and made Ser Cleos whet the blade before he let him scrape away the last inch of yellow stubble. When that was done, they trimmed back his beard as well.

The reflection in the water was a man he did not know. Not only was he bald, but he looked as though he had aged five years in that dungeon; his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don't look as much like Cersei this way. She'll hate that.

(ASoS, Jaime I)

Skulls are complicated symbols, to be sure, but the biggest skull question for me is why GRRM created such a weird sigil for House Lonmouth - skulls and kisses. The lips may take us back to swords, however, because of the regular references to swords as smiles. (You were hoping I could bring this back to the OP, I know.) There are also a number of references to sharp bites and sharp teeth. 

But the Dornishman's blade had a song of its own,

and a bite sharp and cold as a leech.

(ASoS, Jon I)

 

Habit made Jaime reach for his wine with his right hand. His stump rocked the goblet, spattering his clean linen bandages with bright red spots and forcing him to catch the cup with his left hand before it fell, but Bolton pretended not to notice his clumsiness. The northman helped himself to a prune and ate it with small sharp bites. "Do try these, Ser Jaime. They are most sweet, and help move the bowels as well. Lord Vargo took them from an inn before he burnt it."

"My bowels move fine, that goat's no lord, and your prunes don't interest me half so much as your intentions."

(ASoS, Jaime V)

 

So blades are used to shave heads, creating skulls. But smiles are like blades when they bite. Other sharp things that come from mouths? Words and tongues:

 

Catelyn had been a girl the last time she had visited the Twins, but even then Lord Walder had been irascible, sharp of tongue, and blunt of manner. 

(AGoT, Catelyn IX)

 

Lord Tywin's eyes were a pale green flecked with gold, as luminous as they were merciless. "Casterly Rock," he declared in a flat cold dead tone. And then, "Never."

The word hung between them, huge, sharp, poisoned.

I knew the answer before I asked, Tyrion said. 

(ASoS, Tyrion I)

 

Mouths are weapons, in other words. Maybe we knew this from reading about the guy called Biter, who tries to turn Brienne's head into a skull while she's still alive. And the possible harp / sharp connection seems reinforced, to me, by the association between words and blades, with words coming from the sound family - music, lyrics, words, whistles, bird song, etc. 

 

I have to go out now but will try to get back to this later, with some additional thoughts about "sharp ears" and the sounds those ears pick up. Maybe also some thoughts about Ser Ilyn, who has a skull pommel on his hilt, runes on his blade, but no tongue. Sorry to meander on at such length.

Fascinating! Speaking of Fools and Bards- what do you make of Jonquil/Jongleur? 

 

[Seams]

I'm re-reading my exploration in this thread of the possible harp - sharp connection and feeling sheepish. Once you start examining the word "sharp," there are so many uses of this word that only a few of them can really be tied to the idea of music and a possible harp / sword or harp / weapon connection. I don't have use of the Search of Ice and Fire website on this computer but, in addition to the examples of sharp tongues, sharp words, sharp looks, etc. I also found that cheeses were often specifically described as sharp. And then the "sharp ears" that I thought might be connected to the harp / sharp notion. GRRM is definitely interested in the word "sharp," but I can't say that it is clearly tied to harps, now that I stand back and look at it.

It seems to relate to all five senses, and he is definitely interested in those - people losing ears, noses, tongues, fingers, eyes as well as situations of hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and seeing amazing things. And I had in mind a way to bring the sharp + shaggy = shave or haircut thing back to harps, but I can't remember what it was now. Maybe it had to do with the bells on Khal Drogo's braid: he never cuts his braid because he has never lost in combat and so he has lots of bells in his hair. Maybe that's a connection. Or maybe a better "sharp" link to "harps" will become clearer with further reading.

On 3/2/2018 at 10:05 AM, hiemal said:

Fascinating! Speaking of Fools and Bards- what do you make of Jonquil/Jongleur? 

This could be an interesting angle. I hadn't thought of that. Sansa is most closely identified with Jonquil, and she loves music but we see her sing only when The Hound forces her to sing at knifepoint, right? Maybe that is similar to Brienne, saying her word only when forced to it by the tightening noose.

I'm still trying to find a place to plug in one of Marillion's last lines, when he told Sansa / Alayne that he was going to write a song for her called The Roadside Rose. I wonder whether the flower name Jonquil is related to the flower name in that song.

(This is getting really far from the OP, so I apologize. Our host can let me know if this is getting tedious, but I am thinking that the original discussion has played out.)

Flowers are related to flour, through wordplay. Brienne buys some flour from a cook in Maidenpool before setting off with Pod and Nimble Dick. She uses it to fill out her saddlebags and hide some of the coins Jaime gave her to cover expenses. She catches Nimble Dick at one point, covered with flour, trying to take some of her money. In that case, it seems the "flower / flour" is a trap to catch a singer / knight. And that's making me think about Jenny of Oldstones, charming the prince of dragon flies while wearing flowers in her hair.

On 2/26/2018 at 10:03 PM, hiemal said:

Jaime took one look and burst into song. "Six maids there were in a spring-fed pool . . ." ...ASoS

So here we see Jaime as a singer, contrasting with Brienne the non-singer. If the Florian / Jonquil story is a variation on the Ser Galadon of Morne legend with the Maiden of the new gods, then Brienne and Sansa and Jaime and Ser Dontos are all somehow mixed up in this allusion together, I surmise. 

On 2/26/2018 at 10:03 PM, hiemal said:

Long claws, Little Fingers... I think LC completing the Harpy's Fingers intriguing.

...

 

The more I think about it...

I think the Dark Sister/Longclaw theory is a Dark Horse/Longshot, but proximity makes it impossible to ignore. I love the idea of LC being Ice- hadn't thought of that one.

I had another wordplay thought about why the Harpy's Fingers and Jon's sword might complete each other - the nine strands on the Harpy's Fingers are called "lashes." If you have Ice (eyes) you would need lashes, too.

Skip this is you're tired of wordplay, but at least this may bring us back closer to the OP:

Dark Sister = Stark red I's = Stark's dire

Maybe the red-eyed direwolf represents Dark Sister. The sword is lost but its Ghost has risen.

P.S. Fwiw, when I was contemplating the possible sharp / harp wordplay, I thought there must be a parallel pun for the word "shaggy," which is so clearly linked to sharp in certain circumstances. I had a literal guffaw moment while walking the dogs a few days ago, as the word "haggis" occurred to me. I thought even GRRM would not attempt to create symbolism around the Scottish delicacy haggis. And then I found this line:

Clegane sharpened the sword every night, cursing the man he'd swapped with for every nick and spot of rust. If he lost his belly for fighting, why does he care if his sword is sharp? It was not a question Arya dared ask him, but she thought on it a lot.

(ASoS, Arya XII)

The author doesn't say that The Hound lost his appetite, he says he lost his belly. And it is used four times in that chapter. And the image is linked to sword sharpening. So maybe, just maybe, there really is a haggis allusion here.

If you care to follow that rabbit even deeper into the hole, there are poems by the famous Scottish poet, Robert Burns that celebrate haggis, a louse and a mouse. The passage I cited earlier, in which Jaime gets a haircut from Ser Cleos, specifically mentions lice he finds in his hair. And Brienne meets the Mad Mouse shortly before meeting Pod and Ser Hyle and Nimble Dick. Whenever she reflects on the Mad Mouse, she immediately thinks of Jaime. When she spots Pod riding his horse in the rain, trying to follow her, she initially thinks he is the Mad Mouse. So maybe GRRM is doing some kind of Robert Burns tribute with some of these linked symbols in Arya, Brienne and Jaime's travels in the riverlands.

[hiemal]

On Dark Sister and Sorcery (and Bloodraven)- I've been chewing on this one for a while:

I'm still on the fence as to whether or not Dark Sister can act as an alternative to a glass candle, but Bloodraven raises some even more interesting possibilities, I think that the 1000 eyes refers to his feathered minions so in large part I think this would be superfluous for him? Unless either there is a substantial difference between the capabilities of glass candles vs weirnet or the blade could act in some fashion as portable weirwood tree. I can't imgaine how that would work so I'm inclined to doubt the latter.  Unless Dark Sister has "drank" the soul of a greenseer?

Hmmmm, perhaps the Sorcerer's Sword would be "completed" by the addition of a weirwood artifact and possibly a third piece (a crown?) of some other material- Oily Black Stone? Or is Valyrian Steel the only substance that can accompany a Sword?

I suspect Dragonbinder might be another such artifact, but it doesn't feel like a match with Dark Sister. Perhaps it would fit with Lightbringer as a hypothetical Usurper's Sword.

 

 

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, hiemal said:

On Dark Sister and Sorcery (and Bloodraven)- I've been chewing on this one for a while:

I'm still on the fence as to whether or not Dark Sister can act as an alternative to a glass candle, but Bloodraven raises some even more interesting possibilities, I think that the 1000 eyes refers to his feathered minions so in large part I think this would be superfluous for him? Unless either there is a substantial difference between the capabilities of glass candles vs weirnet or the blade could act in some fashion as portable weirwood tree. I can't imgaine how that would work so I'm inclined to doubt the latter.  Unless Dark Sister has "drank" the soul of a greenseer?

Hmmmm, perhaps the Sorcerer's Sword would be "completed" by the addition of a weirwood artifact and possibly a third piece (a crown?) of some other material- Oily Black Stone? Or is Valyrian Steel the only substance that can accompany a Sword?

I suspect Dragonbinder might be another such artifact, but it doesn't feel like a match with Dark Sister. Perhaps it would fit with Lightbringer as a hypothetical Usurper's Sword.

 

 

Now that's some interesting and unanticipated connection making.   It hadn't occurred to me that VS could act like obsidian and become a messaging system.  WOW.   However, I've always reckoned that obsidian was an ingredient in the VS recipe--I can't even site where or why I think this--but if obsidian is the thing that allows for messaging and vanquishing of dead things, why the heck not be an active ingredient in the magic of VS?   This is really interesting as far as I understand.    Dark Sister drank plenty of souls that would or could influence it's abilities.  Famous and powerful souls even.   Perhaps we should revisit the potential making of VS and the magic in runes?    Most excellent way to start the day with a really cool idea, @hiemal!

[hiemal]

On 3/2/2018 at 7:54 PM, Seams said:

 

 

This could be an interesting angle. I hadn't thought of that. Sansa is most closely identified with Jonquil, and she loves music but we see her sing only when The Hound forces her to sing at knifepoint, right? Maybe that is similar to Brienne, saying her word only when forced to it by the tightening noose.

 

Dontos is no Florain, being an imperfect knight and a treacherous fool, so Sansa is no Jonquil. I think Brienne is as close to a perfect knight as we have seen despite never having been annointed, and of course the maesters would say that Florian couldn't have been an actual knight since he lived well before the Andal invasion. She is the Just Maid. Perhaps Oathkeeper has in it that part of Ned Stark that led him to tell Cersei his plans to spare her children or to lie to his own wife about his "bastard"? His downfall, his folly.

As for Jonquil, I suspect it is Jaimie- the scene at Maidenpool is too perfect. And it illustrates another important point:

"Your Bael was a liar," he told her, certain now.

"No," Ygritte said, "but a bard's truth is different than yours or mine. Anyway, you asked for the story, so I told it." She turned away from him, closed her eyes, and seemed to sleep."... ACoK

I think there is an important distinction between bards and fools regarding truth. I wish we knew more about the sword Truth...

On 3/2/2018 at 7:54 PM, Seams said:

Flowers are related to flour, through wordplay. Brienne buys some flour from a cook in Maidenpool before setting off with Pod and Nimble Dick. She uses it to fill out her saddlebags and hide some of the coins Jaime gave her to cover expenses. She catches Nimble Dick at one point, covered with flour, trying to take some of her money. In that case, it seems the "flower / flour" is a trap to catch a singer / knight. And that's making me think about Jenny of Oldstones, charming the prince of dragon flies while wearing flowers in her hair.

 

This reminds me of the flowers in the Neck- I can't remember if it's a Sansa or Arya chapter.

On 3/2/2018 at 7:54 PM, Seams said:

So here we see Jaime as a singer, contrasting with Brienne the non-singer. If the Florian / Jonquil story is a variation on the Ser Galadon of Morne legend with the Maiden of the new gods, then Brienne and Sansa and Jaime and Ser Dontos are all somehow mixed up in this allusion together, I surmise. 

I had another wordplay thought about why the Harpy's Fingers and Jon's sword might complete each other - the nine strands on the Harpy's Fingers are called "lashes." If you have Ice (eyes) you would need lashes, too.

Skip this is you're tired of wordplay, but at least this may bring us back closer to the OP:

Dark Sister = Stark red I's = Stark's dire

Maybe the red-eyed direwolf represents Dark Sister. The sword is lost but its Ghost has risen.

 

That's pretty sweet, I have to say. And if Dark Sister has somehow gained the ability to interact with the weirnet it could be.

On 3/2/2018 at 7:54 PM, Seams said:

P.S. Fwiw, when I was contemplating the possible sharp / harp wordplay, I thought there must be a parallel pun for the word "shaggy," which is so clearly linked to sharp in certain circumstances. I had a literal guffaw moment while walking the dogs a few days ago, as the word "haggis" occurred to me. I thought even GRRM would not attempt to create symbolism around the Scottish delicacy haggis. And then I found this line:

Clegane sharpened the sword every night, cursing the man he'd swapped with for every nick and spot of rust. If he lost his belly for fighting, why does he care if his sword is sharp? It was not a question Arya dared ask him, but she thought on it a lot.

(ASoS, Arya XII)

The author doesn't say that The Hound lost is appetite, he says he lost his belly. And it is used four times in that chapter. And the image is linked to sword sharpening. So maybe, just maybe, there really is a haggis allusion here.

If you care to follow that rabbit even deeper into the hole, there are poems by the famous Scottish poet, Robert Burns that celebrate haggis, a louse and a mouse. The passage I cited earlier, in which Jaime gets a haircut from Ser Cleos, specifically mentions lice he finds in his hair. And Brienne meets the Mad Mouse shortly before meeting Pod and Ser Hyle and Nimble Dick. Whenever she reflects on the Mad Mouse, she immediately thinks of Jaime. When she spots Pod riding his horse in the rain, trying to follow her, she initially thinks he is the Mad Mouse. So maybe GRRM is doing some kind of Robert Burns tribute with some of these linked symbols in Arya, Brienne and Jaime's travels in the riverlands.

The only problem I have with this is I have a hard time believing GRRM could play that coy with a food item. He is Ser Food Porn.

 

[hiemal]

On 3/3/2018 at 11:01 AM, Curled Finger said:

Now that's some interesting and unanticipated connection making.   It hadn't occurred to me that VS could act like obsidian and become a messaging system.  WOW.   However, I've always reckoned that obsidian was an ingredient in the VS recipe--I can't even site where or why I think this--but if obsidian is the thing that allows for messaging and vanquishing of dead things, why the heck not be an active ingredient in the magic of VS?   This is really interesting as far as I understand.    Dark Sister drank plenty of souls that would or could influence it's abilities.  Famous and powerful souls even.   Perhaps we should revisit the potential making of VS and the magic in runes?    Most excellent way to start the day with a really cool idea, @hiemal!

Sudden spitball:

When Ned was in the Tower of Joy Ice somehow drank Lyanna's blood and soul. Ned's soul is in Oathkeeper and Lyanna's is in Widow's Wail.

On runes and magic:

I wish we knew more about the sword Lamentation. When did they acquire it? How did they pay for it? What do the Royces remember that makes them lament but they have lost the VS tongue to speak? Perhaps that is related to the fact that no one can now supposedly use rune magic. Swords and words and all that,

[Curled Finger]

On 3/4/2018 at 4:44 PM, hiemal said:

Sudden spitball:

When Ned was in the Tower of Joy Ice somehow drank Lyanna's blood and soul. Ned's soul is in Oathkeeper and Lyanna's is in Widow's Wail.

On runes and magic:

I wish we knew more about the sword Lamentation. When did they acquire it? How did they pay for it? What do the Royces remember that makes them lament but they have lost the VS tongue to speak? Perhaps that is related to the fact that no one can now supposedly use rune magic. Swords and words and all that,

Ah if only we knew what the Royces remember.  Could be anything but because they maintain that old suit of armor I tend to hope it is the terms of the Pact the 1st men were to uphold.   Winter Is Coming, We Light The Way, Here We Stand, 1st in Battle, Blood and Fire.   These are some serious statements, not mere battle cries.  Of course we don't have Corbray words, but don't surprised if they follow this theme of battle and warning.   I reckon the Pact was written in runes, being the legalese of the day.   Could be each house represented had some thing they were to do forever, keep a Stark in Winterfell, maintain the armor, protect the terms.  It's no happenstance that ravens carry those hearts on the Corbray sigil.  

I seem to recall Lamentation was among the old swords, around for like 500 years, but don't quote me, it all blurs.  It's interesting that the family that would possess Lamentation held Lady Forlorn for about 10 minutes.  Back before there were VS swords, Lady was still a fine thing to have.   Makes you wonder why.  It's also very interesting that both Ice and Lady Forlorn replaced more ancient ancestral swords of the same names.  What's up with that?   Seems to me there is something important to the naming of the swords to more than children in Westeros.  Fun Fact:  Lady Forlorn has always lost to Blackfyre.  

Considering the 1st blood we see Ice drink is Gared's, with his crazy tale of the Others attack, Ice's potential in becoming 2 swords is really sort of magical.   Ned, Lyanna, so many kings and raiders over the centuries, so many prayers during the cleanings, so much justice dispensed and ceremony observed in 300 years.  Even though Ice and Lady Forlorn were the newest swords reborn in Valyrian Steel, they may have been the oldest in Westeros originally.   It's unlikely any magical creatures have been slain by Ice or LF, but I can't help but wonder how many weirwoods those original swords cut down?   

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 08/03/2018 at 4:31 AM, Curled Finger said:

Ah if only we knew what the Royces remember.  Could be anything but because they maintain that old suit of armor I tend to hope it is the terms of the Pact the 1st men were to uphold.   Winter Is Coming, We Light The Way, Here We Stand, 1st in Battle, Blood and Fire.   These are some serious statements, not mere battle cries.  Of course we don't have Corbray words, but don't surprised if they follow this theme of battle and warning.   I reckon the Pact was written in runes, being the legalese of the day.   Could be each house represented had some thing they were to do forever, keep a Stark in Winterfell, maintain the armor, protect the terms.  It's no happenstance that ravens carry those hearts on the Corbray sigil.  

I seem to recall Lamentation was among the old swords, around for like 500 years, but don't quote me, it all blurs.  It's interesting that the family that would possess Lamentation held Lady Forlorn for about 10 minutes.  Back before there were VS swords, Lady was still a fine thing to have.   Makes you wonder why.  It's also very interesting that both Ice and Lady Forlorn replaced more ancient ancestral swords of the same names.  What's up with that?   Seems to me there is something important to the naming of the swords to more than children in Westeros.  Fun Fact:  Lady Forlorn has always lost to Blackfyre.  

Considering the 1st blood we see Ice drink is Gared's, with his crazy tale of the Others attack, Ice's potential in becoming 2 swords is really sort of magical.   Ned, Lyanna, so many kings and raiders over the centuries, so many prayers during the cleanings, so much justice dispensed and ceremony observed in 300 years.  Even though Ice and Lady Forlorn were the newest swords reborn in Valyrian Steel, they may have been the oldest in Westeros originally.   It's unlikely any magical creatures have been slain by Ice or LF, but I can't help but wonder how many weirwoods those original swords cut down?   

excellent post. 

Sorry to be a fat old pain in the arse. But could you summarise the thread for me as to how you guys got to this point. Pretty please. I know this is dead cheeky. 

I love the ideas you've outlined here. 

[Curled Finger]

36 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

excellent post. 

Sorry to be a fat old pain in the arse. But could you summarise the thread for me as to how you guys got to this point. Pretty please. I know this is dead cheeky. 

I love the ideas you've outlined here. 

Nono.   You are a creative type.   No pain at all.   @hiemal tends to get my imagination running wild.  He is a rare poster who enjoys speculation and I am happy to indulge.   We don't get that all that often!   The topic began as I was taking notes for another research project.   It was obvious to me that the bearers of Dark Sister are darker, harder types rumored to be involved with magic.  I dub them Sorcerers.  We've had discussions regarding learned and innate magic which are terribly enlightening.   hiemal spitballed in a previous topic that perhaps the VS swords drink the souls of those they slay much as they drink the light of the dye Tobho Mott attempts to add to OK & WW.  I'm musing that perhaps in addition to the souls of the slain that the VS swords also drink the souls of their bearers.  heimal muses that Ice was present at Lyanna's death (and I will see that and raise perhaps Dawn was in the room, too) somehow absorbing her soul too.    We know the swords are all magic but this bit explores the type of magic.   If a sword can drink a person's soul, why not the force within the weirwoods?   If it is spirit the swords drink Ice would contain or be influenced by Ned, Lyanna, Gared, Arthur Dayne--maybe Hightower and Whent--who knows who else?   Still some very interesting pieces of people to add to the sword's magic.  

Is that why OK & WW would not "take" the red dye Tobho Mott attempted to add?   VS requires real blood?  The darkness of VS is impenetrable?  

There is some wonderful symbolism conversation that goes over my head for the most part, but you will get it.   Your timing is nearly perfect as your ideas for Nightfall's origins are being studied in this other research project.   Yes, it's still legend among the geeks!   We have something of a companion topic going somewhere about character classes in Dungeons and Dragons matching some of the characters in story.    Yes, it's a lot of words still attempting to identify swords and heroes.   Now then, I've missed you and believe it's high time for you to do some commenting. I'm so pleased to have sparked your interest.   

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Nono.   You are a creative type.   No pain at all.   @hiemal tends to get my imagination running wild.  He is a rare poster who enjoys speculation and I am happy to indulge.   We don't get that all that often!   The topic began as I was taking notes for another research project.   It was obvious to me that the bearers of Dark Sister are darker, harder types rumored to be involved with magic.  I dub them Sorcerers.  We've had discussions regarding learned and innate magic which are terribly enlightening.   hiemal spitballed in a previous topic that perhaps the VS swords drink the souls of those they slay much as they drink the light of the dye Tobho Mott attempts to add to OK & WW.  I'm musing that perhaps in addition to the souls of the slain that the VS swords also drink the souls of their bearers.  heimal muses that Ice was present at Lyanna's death (and I will see that and raise perhaps Dawn was in the room, too) somehow absorbing her soul too.    We know the swords are all magic but this bit explores the type of magic.   If a sword can drink a person's soul, why not the force within the weirwoods?   If it is spirit the swords drink Ice would contain or be influenced by Ned, Lyanna, Gared, Arthur Dayne--maybe Hightower and Whent--who knows who else?   Still some very interesting pieces of people to add to the sword's magic.  

Is that why OK & WW would not "take" the red dye Tobho Mott attempted to add?   VS requires real blood?  The darkness of VS is impenetrable?  

There is some wonderful symbolism conversation that goes over my head for the most part, but you will get it.   Your timing is nearly perfect as your ideas for Nightfall's origins are being studied in this other research project.   Yes, it's still legend among the geeks!   We have something of a companion topic going somewhere about character classes in Dungeons and Dragons matching some of the characters in story.    Yes, it's a lot of words still attempting to identify swords and heroes.   Now then, I've missed you and believe it's high time for you to do some commenting. I'm so pleased to have sparked your interest.   

 

This is all so interesting. I will set aside some time over the weekend to think about it and make some comments. 

[Lord Asher Forrester]

On 04/03/2018 at 9:44 PM, hiemal said:

Sudden spitball:

When Ned was in the Tower of Joy Ice somehow drank Lyanna's blood and soul. Ned's soul is in Oathkeeper and Lyanna's is in Widow's Wail.

On runes and magic:

I wish we knew more about the sword Lamentation. When did they acquire it? How did they pay for it? What do the Royces remember that makes them lament but they have lost the VS tongue to speak? Perhaps that is related to the fact that no one can now supposedly use rune magic. Swords and words and all that,

In another thread with spoilers about Sons of the Dragon i suggested that:

Spoiler

when Aegon I body was burnt with Blackfyre the sword darkened, maybe being inbued with some trace of his soul, via his blood and/or ashes. Because there is power in king's blood.

And of course, one cans speculate that maybe it was Visenya the sorcerer swordfighter who insisted in this traditional valyrian ritual.

 

[hiemal]

7 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

In another thread with spoilers about Sons of the Dragon i suggested that:

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when Aegon I body was burnt with Blackfyre the sword darkened, maybe being inbued with some trace of his soul, via his blood and/or ashes. Because there is power in king's blood.

And of course, one cans speculate that maybe it was Visenya the sorcerer swordfighter who insisted in this traditional valyrian ritual.

 

Like Mike and Ike we think alike on this.

The link between VS swords, their names, natures and destinies here could be important. Who named Blackfyre and when? Why? Did that moment on the pier Balerian's black fire have anything to do with it? Perhaps it was "waiting" to drink Aegon I's soul?

Likewise with Dark Sister- is she the Sword of Sorcerers by nature or reputation?