Sorcerers and Swords

[Curled Finger]

9 minutes ago, divica said:

Well 2 things.

If you want to take into account that bran migh warg hodor to use the sword then there are several problems. First, bran was a kid when he became a criple. So he wasn t a good swordsman... Maybe he knew very little about how to use a sword... Then he hasn t practiced for years! And he would need to spend several hours in each day inside hodor to learn how to move his body as well as a swordsman...

It sounds awfull for hodor and very hard to acomplish when bran is learning to be a greenseer. He won t spend time inside hodor practicing with a sword... We don t even know if tcotf would aprove of him entering hodor. All in all it makes more sense for hodor/bran to use a cub to smash things than to go for finesse...

And meera is a spear user. It would fit her better a spear made by tcotf with an obsidian tip.

 

Then the last hero quest was to forge a new type of sword that could resist the WW cold. It makes sense that all valyrian swords are a version of lightbringer because a single useful sword can t do much... And I am not even sure if the sword ignites because of the user or the sowrd (for me is the user)...

However hiding DS for 70 years in order to save it for the new Last Hero makes very little sense (what you are sugesting)... What would the new last hero (aka the last greenseer) do with the sword? take it to a Smith and ask him to do more swords like that? I would prefer if you said the last greenseer will see into the past and guide a couple of characters in a quest to learn how to reforge valyrian/dragon steal. That would make sense!

Well, we have to agree to disagree, divica.   I completely disagree with every remark you made which was basically disagreeing with every remark I made.   To each their own.  

[divica]

8 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't think Jon will be resisting anything, but I do see other candidates for taking Longclaw.  Back to your Hodor assumption...Longclaw is a bastard sword--nearly as big as a great sword--a big, awkward thing.  Dark Sister will be more compact and elegant--quicker for sure.  But Dark Sister is the non heir sword among the Targaryans.   Jon would have Blackfyre if everything worked out the way it actually should.   Blackfyre is the only other VS sword we know of that is a bastard sword.  I just see a lot of little hints in Longclaw being Jon's, that's all.   I doubt the story will permit anything to work out as it should.  

Far as I can tell, and I have studied this at length and will ask @Cridefea for her expertise as well...there were no magic swords available for Rhaegar to wield.  The other swords known to us were all long held ancestral swords from their original families except the swords held by the Ironborn, Nightfall and Red Rain. There do seem to be 3 VS swords Tywin tried to buy, but we don't know who the families were, though we have to guess the Mormonts were among them.   It could also have been disgraceful to wield a sword that was not specifically Targaryan.  That's just a guess.  In all if either Blackfyre or Dark Sister (perhaps even Truth) were available to Rhaegar I'm certain he would have carried one or the other.   We've been looking for the swords for years.   I'm convinced Brightroar and Lamentation are lost and destroyed respectively.   Ice has been reforged into 2 blades leaving us with 12 named VS swords said to be Westerosi.  That says they are in Westeros to me.   Why list them if they aren't?  At the end of the day you're absolutely right.   Rhaegar's sword was nothing special.   

Dark sister's history kind of also fits with jon. If I am not mistaken several characters used dark sister before using their final sword right? And some of its users were bad people which might be how jon sees himself if he leaves the NW.

I just find it strange that rhaegar would make so many efforts because of a profecy but wouldn t look for a special sword. And you have to take into account that rhaegar migh have means that tywin didn t.

First, aemon might have found a reference in the citadel or the library in CB to some valyrian sword lost somewhere. Then rhaegar might have information about some valyrian setlement (from when the targs left valyria). If euron was able to find valyrian armor it isn t total impossible for rhaegar to find a sword. 

[Curled Finger]

12 minutes ago, divica said:

Dark sister's history kind of also fits with jon. If I am not mistaken several characters used dark sister before using their final sword right? And some of its users were bad people which might be how jon sees himself if he leaves the NW.

I just find it strange that rhaegar would make so many efforts because of a profecy but wouldn t look for a special sword. And you have to take into account that rhaegar migh have means that tywin didn t.

First, aemon might have found a reference in the citadel or the library in CB to some valyrian sword lost somewhere. Then rhaegar might have information about some valyrian setlement (from when the targs left valyria). If euron was able to find valyrian armor it isn t total impossible for rhaegar to find a sword. 

I don't know what you mean in  several characters used dark sister before using their final sword right?  I detailed every character known to have used Dark Sister in the OP.  Dark Sister is the only sword we know Visenya used.   Maegor was given Dark Sister at age 14.  Daemon was given Dark Sister when he was knighted at 16.  Aemon was given Dark Sister when he was very young.  Bloodraven is the only character we don't have an age for.   All we know is the sword was given to him for his skill. 4 of these 5 characters were said to be sorcerers.  @Leo of House Cartelhas given some very interesting people and circumstances surrounding Aemon the Dragonknight's possible association with sorcery.   That is the object of this discussion.  Is Dark Sister a sorcerer's sword?  

Outside of Maegor and possibly Daemon, I don't consider Visenya, Aemon or Bloodraven to have been bad people.   The associative thread here is sorcery as disposition seems completely counteracted by the award to Aemon the Dragonknight.  Jon is not a bad person and the definition of sorcerer seems to remain at issue.   

It is possible that Rhaegar did search for swords and was as unsuccessful as Tywin.   It's also possible he didn't think VS swords mattered at all.   He seems to have failed to figure the pact of ice and fire into his original prophecy understanding as well as having changed his mind about the identity of The Prince That Was Promised.   Given time perhaps he would have found a sword.  Perhaps the swords don't figure into the prophecy Rhaegar was focused on or any prophecy at all.  In that Rhaegar is long dead and didn't express a known interest in the swords he doesn't matter in the least in a discussion about magic swords.   

To the best of my knowledge Euron is the only person who has ever traveled to Valyria since the Doom and survived to tell the tale.  It's not a desirable tourist destination. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

@Megorova and @Dorian Martell's son

I'm staying out of your debate, but enjoying the Hell out of it.   Didn't want you to feel ignored.  

Crying Averted!!!!!!

 

[Back door hodor]

If a mormont female claims longclaw while Jon is asleep I'm all for it

 

 

[Back door hodor]

6 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

Winds spoiler below.

  Reveal hidden contents

It just occurred to me that Aly Mormont is headed to the Wall in the Theon sample chapter from Winds.

I don't know that it will happen, but it's an option.

If a Mormont female claims longclw while Jon is alsleep im al for it

[Back door hodor]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Funny, I hadn't really thought of this as a topic so much as a thing I wanted to talk about with the community.   I'm pretty spoiled here.   I get great conversation with 99.9% of everyone who passes by.   TBH, I know the sword geeks and they are a great group to bounce things off of.  I got really lucky here with so many new folks willing to share their thoughts about this thing.   There are plenty of sword geeks who just don't know it yet!   

Interesting take on Summerhall--look to the Marches.  I like it.   You are a clever clever reader.  Blackfyre has been in the back of my mind--how could it not be with it's sister sword the focus of this discussion?  I agree with your thoughts that Blackfyre will return to the fore very soon and most likely in Aegon's story.   Which also gives me hope that Dark Sister may appear simultaneously.hope.hope.hope.   Who am I kidding?   Back door hodor, I am hell bent that all the swords will reappear.  

As I was trying to explain to @Leo of House Cartel above, I think these swords are all magic.   Maybe different magic, but magic nonetheless.  I think they call to the heroes who will wield them.  That is the beauty of their placement in the open and in hiding.  There are at least 2 strong theories I won't bore you with regarding their placement, but trust that Longclaw is precisely where it is destined (?) to be.  It also allows Jon to perhaps allow another sword with different magic to coincide with his own destiny.  Dark Sister, Blackfyre, Dawn or even ancestral Ice, I can't say--but I promise Jon Snow will have a powerful magic sword when Longclaw is gone.   Now if you have a mind--who do you see taking Longclaw next?   

Curled finger, I agree 100 percent the naming and placement of these swords is not an accident, there is a difference between simple fan service and world building and name dropping two swords a dozen times, blackfyre and dark sister ARE important, the question is HOW important?

[Leo of House Cartel]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Or we just like to flap our jaws about all this fabulous mystery!   Now I'm digging your parallels between the mystery knights and magic they represent...then you manage to sneak poison in!    Well done my friend.   I'm still waiting for you to write a book and sign it for me.   Very interesting inversion comparison between Rhaegar and Aemon.  Yes, could he have studied prophecy?  Blood and Fire some day, Brother!   I will be looking for connections between Aemon and the select others he shares the possession of Dark Sister with. 

Please pardon my sidetrack here.   I wondered when Bloodraven became aware of his greensight.  Was he very young?   Did he use those talents to aid in his position as Hand?  It's curious we never hear of any great deed he achieved in service to the Nights Watch other than becoming LC, of course he had some 50 votes walking in didn't he?   He was such a distinguished ruler of sorts.   You would think we would hear tales about him at the Wall.  He ranged.  Why?  Was he always the adventurous sort?  Was he being called by a 3 Eyed Crow himself?  Did he meet singers and giants?   I mean at some point he had to know precisely what he was.  

I think that when Dark Sister was bestowed upon Brynden Rivers it became his.   He had his own name--if memory serves, I think he could have taken the surname Targaryan being legitimized, his own sigil, colors, guard.  I think Dark Sister belongs to the Targ it's given to.   I'm sure there is something deeply symbolic to it, as our friends above have mentioned.  It's beginning to make my mind wander to magic calling to the hands that will wield it.  Dark Sister may well be a very magical sword that demanded to be in his hands.   Maybe he tried to give it away.  Maybe it was lost in 1 of the battles.  I think the damned thing just stayed with him because that's where it belonged.    You tell me, my brilliant Ser--is it plausible? 

Haha if I ever do a book then you will be writing the foreword my friend! 

Hmm, the question of when Bloodraven's greensight developed has always stumped me. Bran and Jojen display similar abilities from a young age, same goes for the Skinchangers we encounter, who all seem to start young - one could maybe look at this as evidence for Brynden's talents arising during his youth. 

I would assume that whenever his gifts were realised, some COTF/3EC type figure would have tried contacting him in a similar manner to Bran and his crow dreams. Raised at Raventree Hall, BR would have been around worshippers of the Old Gods from an early age, as well as that big dead Heart Tree, which might still be able to access the weirwood net.

If the Children/Old Gods knew Bloodraven was destined to be a greenseer - like how Brynden knew of Bran's destiny - then I imagine they would have tried to get hold of him as soon as they could. The bastard son of a Dragon King might have similar value to that of the heir to Winterfell, in terms of manipulating certain humans south of the Wall.

The Sworn Sword and Mystery Knight certainly hint towards BR having gifts beyond those of normal people, but I suppose the King's spymaster would have extra talents anyway. One thing I always enjoyed about these stories is how we don't really know if Brynden was using his greensight at the time to "flush out all the traitors and spy on everything", or if he was simply a really talented master of whisperers. I think a bit of both is likely.

I wonder, if Brynden did indeed develop his greensight and an early age, when was he made aware of Bran? Did someone contact him in his dream and basically say "your entire life is going to revolve around an unborn messiah figure"?

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." - ADWD Bran II

BR would have been in the cave by the time Bran was born - at that point, probably more tree than man. His remark about "watching with a thousand eyes and one" could however be construed as Lord Rivers knowing of Bran during his time as Hand (when the thousand eyes became known)

It is very strange that we hear of nothing relating to BR's time as Lord Commander, other than his fateful ranging. The Black Brothers are known for telling old Watch stories around the campfire - it's beyond odd that no one has any told any good stories about the albino Dragon who went from King's Hand to Lord Commander. How about the Raven's Teeth? No mention of this sniper gang with the weirwood arrows, who had shot down no less a celebrity than Daemon I Blackfyre.

This could point towards Bloodraven's time as LC being a dark, sombre time for the Crows. Considering his Blackwood links, greenseer/dragon blood and shrewd mind, I wonder if Brynden ever attempted to focus the Watch towards their original purpose of fighting Others instead of worrying about Wildlings.

 

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Curled finger, I agree 100 percent the naming and placement of these swords is not an accident, there is a difference between simple fan service and world building and name dropping two swords a dozen times, blackfyre and dark sister ARE important, the question is HOW important?

Ah, that is the question, isn't it?  In this shiny new conversation I am beginning to realize each sword may have a very different purpose while still serving the ultimate purpose in end game.   Of course I could be completely wrong.   It wouldn't be the 1st time by a long shot.  Still there is much to be learned from the past as is apparent with Dark Sister.  Perhaps we simply have the benefit of much more information regarding her possible purpose than say Orphan-Maker or Nightfall?  Agh...

[White Ravens]

It is tempting to speculate about Meera Reed aquiring Dark Sister at the Weirwood cave or someone at Castle Black even.  But it is hard to imagine that Bloodraven would have been allowed to take the sword with him when he left King's Landing for the Wall.  His status, reputation and abilities allowed him to rise to the position of Lord Commander once he was at the Wall but let's not forget that he was imprisoned in the dungeons below the Red Keep as punishment for the betrayal and murder of Aenys Blackfyre.  It is hard to imagine that he would have Dark Sister returned to him when he was released from the dungeons and sent to the Wall to live out the balance of his sentence.  This all suggests that Dark Sister is still in King's Landing somewhere.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

58 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

It is tempting to speculate about Meera Reed aquiring Dark Sister at the Weirwood cave or someone at Castle Black even.  But it is hard to imagine that Bloodraven would have been allowed to take the sword with him when he left King's Landing for the Wall.  His status, reputation and abilities allowed him to rise to the position of Lord Commander once he was at the Wall but let's not forget that he was imprisoned in the dungeons below the Red Keep as punishment for the betrayal and murder of Aenys Blackfyre.  It is hard to imagine that he would have Dark Sister returned to him when he was released from the dungeons and sent to the Wall to live out the balance of his sentence.  This all suggests that Dark Sister is still in King's Landing somewhere.

I agree with this. But I tend to have a back and forth on this. On the one hand, I find it hard to believe that Aegon would let a family heirloom like this one go to the Wall, especially after what happened with Blackfyre. On the other hand, Aegon was into prophecy, so the power of prophecy and if Aegon knew exactly what Bloodraven was (a greenseer) may have held enough sway with him that he would have allowed Bloodraven to take the sword with him. I'd think the Targaryens would be more willing and would readily accept this and whatever Bloodraven may have to say to them about ice zombies and long nights and princes that were promised and so on.  

If the sword remained in King's Landing, I wouldn't be surprised was wielded by Rhaegar himself.  

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On Darksister and white dragons...

The words of House Targaryen are “Fire and Blood”

The swords of House Targaryen are Blackfyre and Darksister

Quote

“She has a thirst for blood.” -Daemon Targaryen (about Darksister)

I believe that there are two main parallel/inversion patterns here we might explore. 

Fire and Blood / Black and White Dragons

Dark Sister goes to someone “of the blood” but not the king.

As pointed out above there does seem to be an association with sorcery, and all Valyrian sorcery derives its power from either fire or blood.

It is unclear to me what color Vhagar was, but possibly white... Visenya was the one to found the White Swords, the Kingsguard, after literally drawing Aegon’s blood with Darksister.

Aemon the Dragonknight was known as such because of the White Gold Dragon Helm he wore. He was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Bryndon Rivers, as a bastard, inverted his coat of arms to show a white dragon. He was known as Bloodraven.

I’m still working on Daemon... and hopefully I’ll have more here soon.

But I’m still sticking to my original prediction of Arya ending up with Dark Sister...

Quote

I see you, wolf child. Bloodchild.

 

 

[Megorova]

@Dorian Martell's son, don't comment this post. Let's not get offtopic of thread's theme.

 

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

@Megorova and @Dorian Martell's son

I'm staying out of your debate, but enjoying the Hell out of it.   Didn't want you to feel ignored. 

Sorry for flooding your thread. I'll try not to get too much off topic. I'll put under spoiler, those parts of my reply to Dorian Martell's son, that are unrelated to OP.

Edit: I placed entire post under spoiler. It's mostly offtopic of this thread. So, people, don't comment this post.

Spoiler

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Riding a horse raised and broke and trained for riding is very different than picking up a weapon. 

I specifically posted quote with that scene, where she was riding that horse, because of her reactions:

Quote

Dany found herself moving faster than she had intended, yet somehow it was exciting rather than terrifying. The horse broke into a trot, and she smiled.

Quote

A daring she had never known filled Daenerys then, and she gave the filly her head.

In dangerous situations, instead of getting scared, she's getting exited. She had similar reaction, when Drogon apeared in fighting pit - when in critical situation, facing against mortal treat, she didn't run away, and didn't freeze up. Instead she has run towards berserking dragon, and used against him whatever was available, to stop him.

Danger gives her adrenaline rush, it's a good quality for a potential fighter. She's able to act fast, and use her brain, even under pressure. So it's still possible that she will be weilding a sword in a near future. She's not Sansa, i.e. she isn't totally hopeless as a fighter.

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

And life is long, so she still can learn to wield a sword.

The first 5 books took us through 2 years.  So no.

The first 5 books Dany was in Essos, while ancestral swords of Targaryens (Blackfyre and Dark Sister) are in Westeros. Most likely only Bloodraven knows where they are, thus he will be the one who will (thru Bran) give those swords to their rightful owners (Targaryens, Blackfyres?)

I thought that Blackfyre should be given to Rhaego (because he's first son of Targaryen Queen). But I rereaded how many of Valyrian blades there are in total, and I noticed that one of them is an arakh. So this weapon will be more fitting for a Rhaego, who is a Dothraki.

Furthermore there's one problem with his inheritance. Rhaego may be Dany's firstborn, but he's son of her first husband, not son of King of 7K. If Jon Snow is son of Rhaegar Targaryen, then he is also first in line, to be ruler of 7K. So Dany's children from her previous marriages, no matter whether they are older than her children with Jon (Aegon VII Targaryen), they won't ever sit on Iron Throne.

Furthermore there's Essos, and maybe millions of Dothraki, thus someone has to rule over them. And Rhaego is a Dothraki, so most likely he won't be content to settle in one place, and be stuck in a court of Red Keep, with all those civilized ceremonies and alien for him customs, if he will have an alternative option to be free, and be among others like him. The ruler of 7K will be first son of Dany and Jon, not Rhaego. So Rhaego won't have a high place in a chierarchy of 7K. For him it will be better to be a ruler of Dothraki, than a mere courtier (Queen's son from one of her previous marriages, and half-barbarian) in Red Keep.  

Thus Rhaego will be wielding that Valyrian steel arakh, and Blackfyre will be given either to Jon's eldest son, or returned to Blackfyres (fAegon) from whom it was treacherously taken away by Targaryens, after Fourth Rebellion.

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

And for how long will he have it?

Until he doesn't. But that doesn't matter. Dawn would still have to go north and be given to someone who is not a dayn, the only people who have ever wielded it. So no 

Though if Arthur Dayne is Jon's godfather, and he was the one who named him (as Aegon), then Jon is also his family. And if Ashara Dayne was also then at TofJ, then could be that after her brother's death, she decided to give her brother's sword to Jon/Aegon. Because Jon was his godson, and also his King. And Arthur didn't had his own children, so his godson is the closest to something like his successor.

Also it doesn't make any sense, that after Lyanna's death, Ned took with him newborn Jon, and went across Red Mountains and desert, to supposedly bring the Dawn to Starfall. And another suspicious thing is that how Ashara supposedly commited suicide, by jumping into the sea from Starfall's tower, but her body was never found. So is there any actual evidences, that Ned really went to Starfall after Lyanna's death, and that he really brought the Dawn there, and that Ashara really commited suicide?

I know what GRRM has said about the Dawn, thought those words prove nothing. Whose words are those? Maybe GRRM was just citing his book, or passage from World book. Thus it may be that those words were said by one of Daynes. But even though Daynes made other characters of ASOIAF to think, that the Dawn is at Starfall, it doesn't mean that it's true. Because if Arthur's sister gave their ancestral sword to Jon Snow, then will other Daynes tell about this to anyone? Of course not. Because that will make people (characters) wonder, why did Arthur Dayne's ancestral sword was given to Jon Snow, to Starks? Is it because Ashara is Jon's mother, or is it because Arthur was present at Tower of Joy, when Lyanna Stark died there, and thus there's some sort of connection between Arthur, Ned, and Ned's bastard.

If people will know, that the Dawn was given to Starks, or they will think that the Dawn's current whereabouts are unknown, and its last known location was at the Tower of Joy, then people will also suspect that Ned Stark took the sword. That's why, to prevent from happening any conjectures, that may lead to people realising Jon's real identity, Ned and Ashara and Daynes family, made up that story about Ned going to Starfall to give the Dawn to Daynes family, and Ashara comitting suicide. Even though actually Ashara is alive, and went with Howland Reed to become Jyanna Reed (and Edric Ned Dayne is their third child).

Add to that, that in crypts of Winterfell there are buried only males. Aside from one exeption - Lyanna. And everyone there are buried with swords, so with what sword was buried Lyanna? So could be that the Dawn is buried with her. 

This story is based on lots of assumptions, but it ties together many out of loose plot threads.   

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Who says Jorah will return?  Even if he does, who says he will meet Jon? This is not the thing we must not mention. 

Jorah is with Tyrion. I think that it's obvious that Tyrion will make it back to Westeros. So most likely Jorah will too. And it's based on logic, not on that other thing.

Jorah's character and his story weren't added into plot of ASOIAF, for him just to die in Essos, away from home, not ever returning to Bear Island. Also there are only women left in Mormonts House, so Jorah's return in 7K is necessary. His redemption arc is necessary. So he will return to Westeros, to take responsibility for his past crimes, and for his family, that he abandoned at Bear Island. Thus he will help Starks to deal with the Others (for them to pardon what he did before), and he will again become head of Mormonts House (as he should be).

Thus Jon will give him back, ancestral sword of Mormonts. That's logical, isn't it?

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also those that killed/or tried to kill Jon, will take away his sword. Because Valyrian blade is a rarity. So other watchers may even fight against each other, to claim it after Jon's fall.

you assume Jon will die, and that people will abandon him and his corpse. 

I assume, that even if Jon is only wounded, there won't be many people who will watch over his property, to protect it from being stolen. I think that there's going to be revolt in Night's Watch, because of the way how things went in the end of ADWD, in shield hall of Castle Black. Even if Jon will survive, I don't think that he will stay Lord Commander for long. They all think that he's a traitor. So even if some people will remain on his side, and he will be safely taken away from that courtyard (still alive), it's fairly possible that other watchers will take his sword away. Maybe he will eventually reclaim it, but only to give it back later to Jorah.

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

1. Show me a passage where Dawn is shown to be on fire. Not looked like, or theorized, or "it is knowned."  Dawn is a sword. Besides, AA is a myth. He never existed and will never be reborn. That is the folly of the red priests and Stannis.

2. Prophecy always fails. 

1. Dawn is described as white milkglass. So could be that it's transparent or semi-transparent. And for it to start to blaze, from within its core, and for the fire to be seen thru its transparent body, it needs to be wielded by special person, by Azor Ahai 2, someone with dragonblood from Jaehaerys' line, like Jon son of Rhaegar.

2. Yeah, right.

Dany saw in the House of Undying, beautiful woman (Westeros/7K) being abused by four little men, an raped by one of them (Stannis, Renly, Greyjoy, and Joffrey who had 7K in the end). And even though it was War of Five Kings, Robb Stark wasn't in first vision, abusing Westeros-woman. First of all, because out of five Kings, he was the only one, who participated in that war, not to own 7K, but to get revenge for unjust execution of his father. And the second reason why he wasn't in that vision, is because he was in next, where was held a Feast of Corpses. He was the King with wolf's head.

At least two of Dany's prophetic visions later turned into reality. So why other prophetic visions and prophecies should fail?

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

Furthermore, based on description of Lightbringer, in Jon's vision-dream, the sword he was wielding then, wasn't Longclaw.

So what? does jon possess armor made of ice? where is it stored? Who made it? Again, no.

It's Euron's black armor made from Valyrian steel.

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

23 hours ago, Megorova said:

I think that it was made from part of the same comet, that appeared above Planetos in 298/299, after Rhaego's birth. And it wasn't first time, that that comet was passing near their planet. Comets have a tendency to return.

Stars don't fall and then fly up again.  And a comet that is visible to the naked eye are so large they will kill say, all the dinosaurs on a planet. Again, no. 

Are you serious?

The big comet is flying thru space. While passing nearby certain planet, it get's hit by other space object. As result ot it, pieces of comet are getting sawed off its surface, while main body continues to fly on, wherever the comet was going. Or even if it doesn't collide with anything, small parts of it are getting ripped off by gravitational field of the planet, near which the comet is passing by. It's flying far enough from the planet's orbit, not to get completely caught by its gravitational pull, though some rocks from its surface can get separated from the comet. Either way they get trapped by planet's gravity field, and go down. Out of pieces of it, that are falling on the planet, majority get burned in planet's mesosphere. If certain space rocks are big enough not to burn completely, in upper layers of atmosphere, then those of them that managed to get thru to lower layers, then they are seen from the planets surface as falling stars, or meteorites. Thus it's possible to have on planet's surface piece of meteorite, while Mother-comet from which it originally came, will be far away, still flying thru space. Comets fly on certain orbits, round and round and round. So if certain comet was passing nearby certain planet, then if on her way thru space, she won't get into major collision with something else, then eventually she will be back, and will be again flying above the same planed, that it visited years or most likely hundreds or thousands years ago.

For example Halley's Comet, that was observed flying near Earth in 1531, 1607, 1682, 1757, 1835, and in 1986. Its orbit goes around Sun, and the comet passes Earth every 74-79 years. But there are also a long-period comets, for example like Comet West, with orbital period of 254,000 years. 

Thus could be that The Bleeding Star comet, that was passing above Planetos in 298/299 is the same comet, as was passing Planetos in Age of Heroes, and lost a piece. It fell on the planet's surface, near place were was eventually raised Starfall. And from this "fallen star" was forged the Dawn sword of Daynes. 

I'm sure that The Bleeding Star in ASOIAF, is a periodic comet.

While I was reading info about comets, I noticed something interesting:

Quote

Halley was the first comet to be recognized as periodic. Until the Renaissance, the philosophical consensus on the nature of comets, promoted by Aristotle, was that they were disturbances in Earth's atmosphere. This idea was disproved in 1577 by Tycho Brahe

Tycho is a rare name, isn't it? And we have one Tycho in GRRM's books - Tycho Nestoris, manager of Iron Bank. Is it a mere coincidence, that one of GRRM's characters, have the same name as real world astronomer, that was researching comets. Could be that it's an indication, that GRRM was also reading information about periodic nature of comets, and when stumbling upon name of this astronomer, decided that he should use it for one of his characters.

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Someone would have seen the baby get taken away. There were too many people there to ignore it. This wasn't varys in a castle riddled wit h secret passages. This was a tent surrounded by people 

And they saw. And that's the reason why many people went together with Ko Pono. Because he had with him the Stallion that will mount the world. And among those people that stayed with Dany, nearly all of them had a low status. Thus while there was still thousands of people in Drogo's khalasar, those 100 that remained with Dany, were far far far away from Khal's tent. Dany's three handmaids, Jorah and Mirri, let the baby be taken away. While Dany's three bloodriders at that moment probably were away from her tent. Could be that they left for whatever reason (went to get some food or water, or were answering call of nature, or one of girls intentionally sent them away under some pretense), and that's when Ko Pono went there and took the baby. Aside from Jorah, Mirri and three handmaids, all other people, that were around Drogo's tent, were those that left with Khal Pono.

Why do people think, that no one saw that kidnapping? Many saw, and those many took part in it. Ten thousands Dothraki left Drogo's khalasar on the very next day after blood ritual. Have you never thought, why did they decided so fast, whom out of Drogo's remaining Kos should they follow? What influenced them to make their decision so fast, what factor united them, and made them follow Pono? The logical answer, is that he had the Stallion, and thus people went with him.

22 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So, how will they get reunited? Who will bring a 2 year old on an ocean journey of 6 months after a journey of a similar time to a city where there are no children?  

I don't understand meaning of your question. What city without children? What journey of similar time?

Though about little children and long ocean journeys:

Willem Darry and newborn Dany sailing from Dragonstone to Braavos.

Gilly and Mance's baby sailing from Eastwatch to Braavos, and then back to Westeros to Oldtown.

Rohanne of Tyrosh and her many children. Based on timeframe of Bittersteel's and Daemon's family escape to Essos, seems that Rohanne at that time was pregnant with Daemon's last child, and several of her children were 1-3 years old toddlers.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

42 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Dany saw in the House of Undying, beautiful woman (Westeros/7K) being abused by four little men, an raped by one of them (Stannis, Renly, Greyjoy, and Joffrey who had 7K in the end). And even though it was War of Five Kings, Robb Stark wasn't in first vision, abusing Westeros-woman. First of all, because out of five Kings, he was the only one, who participated in that war, not to own 7K, but to get revenge for unjust execution of his father. And the second reason why he wasn't in that vision, is because he was in next, where was held a Feast of Corpses. He was the King with wolf's head.

At least two of Dany's prophetic visions later turned into reality. So why other prophetic visions and prophecies should fail?

I realize this isn’t the topic of this thread, but I think the explanation given above is way off...

First the servitors raping the beautiful woman... I don’t know why people think this is an analogy for the war of five kings? This is a massive unsubstantiated leap... especially when Dany literally just drank shade of the evening given to her by a servitor. I could get into what I think is going on, but I’m not sure it’s relevant here.

Also Robb did rape the Westerlands, part of the seven kingdoms.

This has always seemed a very poor explanation of the first HotU vision to me.

And it’s not Rob in the vision of the corpse feast either... how do I know? The crown is wrong and the wolf looks with “silent appeal”... why would Rob look to Dany with appeal? And, there is one explicitly silent direwolf, who has every reason to be at a feast of the dead, and may well be a king... Hint: it’s Jon/Ghost

So do I think the visions Danny saw will come true, in a way, yes, but prophesy is a bitch.

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

First the servitors raping the beautiful woman...

Those were not servitors, she just thought that they look similar to him. It wasn't reallly happening where Dany was, it was just a vision seen thru one of side doors.

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In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched bloody cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal.

And why that vision is the War of Five Kings, is because the next vision is a Red Wedding. Those two events happened one after another, I mean in reality - the War and then the Wedding. And thus Dany saw them in her visions, also happening one after another.

And the iron crown on Wolf King's head, is not Robb's bronze crown with runes. But it doesn't mean, that the Wolf King is not Robb. Because wolf's crown in that vision is symbolic, not an actual crown. In Starks crypts under Winterfell, there's an ironwood door, and all of dead there have iron swords. That iron crown is indication that that Wolf King is dead (will die when that feast will happen in reality).

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Haha if I ever do a book then you will be writing the foreword my friend! 

Hmm, the question of when Bloodraven's greensight developed has always stumped me. Bran and Jojen display similar abilities from a young age, same goes for the Skinchangers we encounter, who all seem to start young - one could maybe look at this as evidence for Brynden's talents arising during his youth. 

I would assume that whenever his gifts were realised, some COTF/3EC type figure would have tried contacting him in a similar manner to Bran and his crow dreams. Raised at Raventree Hall, BR would have been around worshippers of the Old Gods from an early age, as well as that big dead Heart Tree, which might still be able to access the weirwood net.

If the Children/Old Gods knew Bloodraven was destined to be a greenseer - like how Brynden knew of Bran's destiny - then I imagine they would have tried to get hold of him as soon as they could. The bastard son of a Dragon King might have similar value to that of the heir to Winterfell, in terms of manipulating certain humans south of the Wall.

The Sworn Sword and Mystery Knight certainly hint towards BR having gifts beyond those of normal people, but I suppose the King's spymaster would have extra talents anyway. One thing I always enjoyed about these stories is how we don't really know if Brynden was using his greensight at the time to "flush out all the traitors and spy on everything", or if he was simply a really talented master of whisperers. I think a bit of both is likely.

I wonder, if Brynden did indeed develop his greensight and an early age, when was he made aware of Bran? Did someone contact him in his dream and basically say "your entire life is going to revolve around an unborn messiah figure"?

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." - ADWD Bran II

BR would have been in the cave by the time Bran was born - at that point, probably more tree than man. His remark about "watching with a thousand eyes and one" could however be construed as Lord Rivers knowing of Bran during his time as Hand (when the thousand eyes became known)

It is very strange that we hear of nothing relating to BR's time as Lord Commander, other than his fateful ranging. The Black Brothers are known for telling old Watch stories around the campfire - it's beyond odd that no one has any told any good stories about the albino Dragon who went from King's Hand to Lord Commander. How about the Raven's Teeth? No mention of this sniper gang with the weirwood arrows, who had shot down no less a celebrity than Daemon I Blackfyre.

This could point towards Bloodraven's time as LC being a dark, sombre time for the Crows. Considering his Blackwood links, greenseer/dragon blood and shrewd mind, I wonder if Brynden ever attempted to focus the Watch towards their original purpose of fighting Others instead of worrying about Wildlings.

 

So long as I get the autograph, Brother.   

Euron dreamed of flying when he was young.  There is no reason BR wouldn't have undergone the same type of contact as Bran--some crazy bird pecking at his forehead.  The thing with BR is he's magical on both sides, which I find utterly fascinating.  I suspect he was very young, maybe as young as Bran when he began to feel the call of his destiny.  This is great stuff, I can always rely on your memory and imagination to fill in those dark holes in my sense of reason and wonder.   

Yes, I can see BR's time with the NW as a time of preparation.  With the snipers--love that, you really are on a roll in this one.   Jeor seemed to be preparing as well--a throw back to previous command?   This is good.  This is really good, Leo.   

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, White Ravens said:

It is tempting to speculate about Meera Reed aquiring Dark Sister at the Weirwood cave or someone at Castle Black even.  But it is hard to imagine that Bloodraven would have been allowed to take the sword with him when he left King's Landing for the Wall.  His status, reputation and abilities allowed him to rise to the position of Lord Commander once he was at the Wall but let's not forget that he was imprisoned in the dungeons below the Red Keep as punishment for the betrayal and murder of Aenys Blackfyre.  It is hard to imagine that he would have Dark Sister returned to him when he was released from the dungeons and sent to the Wall to live out the balance of his sentence.  This all suggests that Dark Sister is still in King's Landing somewhere.

Hi and welcome, White Ravens.   King's Landing is as likely as any place for Dark Sister to await discovery.   I've been trying to bake my idea that Longclaw as an LC's sword was a hint toward BR actually taking DS to the Wall.   I've been immersed in this for a couple of weeks now.    I'm not here to change your mind, but you do look like the rational sort and I can always use some rational er restraint, when I'm spinning up a theory.   We have very specific mentions of Dark Sister and the people who held her.  Sure there could be others, but why not tell us about them or better yet, why mention the characters we do have?   We've got 5 and that's pretty much it.  We are told of thrice DS is lost and recovered.   We get very little intel about how BR got DS or what happened to it.   Cridefea found the SSM that verifies Dark Sister was actually Bloodraven's sword.   In that we have all this information regarding loss and recovery right up until Bloodraven's turn I think it's safe to assume he still has the sword.   Dark Sister isn't lost at all.   

There it is.   Tell me if it's worth anything or not?   

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Widow's Watch said:

I agree with this. But I tend to have a back and forth on this. On the one hand, I find it hard to believe that Aegon would let a family heirloom like this one go to the Wall, especially after what happened with Blackfyre. On the other hand, Aegon was into prophecy, so the power of prophecy and if Aegon knew exactly what Bloodraven was (a greenseer) may have held enough sway with him that he would have allowed Bloodraven to take the sword with him. I'd think the Targaryens would be more willing and would readily accept this and whatever Bloodraven may have to say to them about ice zombies and long nights and princes that were promised and so on.  

If the sword remained in King's Landing, I wouldn't be surprised was wielded by Rhaegar himself.  

Makes sense if Dark Sister remained in Kings Landing.  In that there is no mention of Dark Sister other than the Inventories at the Citadel citing it is a lost sword, I'm thinking it really hasn't been seen.  But why would Rhaegar wield Dark Sister, just for curiosity's sake?  It's got the taint of historically belonging to the non-heir Targ.  I suppose if it was the only VS remaining it would make sense for any Targ to hold it or I am missing something more substantial here, Widow?   

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

On Darksister and white dragons...

The words of House Targaryen are “Fire and Blood”

The swords of House Targaryen are Blackfyre and Darksister

I believe that there are two main parallel/inversion patterns here we might explore. 

Fire and Blood / Black and White Dragons

Dark Sister goes to someone “of the blood” but not the king.

As pointed out above there does seem to be an association with sorcery, and all Valyrian sorcery derives its power from either fire or blood.

It is unclear to me what color Vhagar was, but possibly white... Visenya was the one to found the White Swords, the Kingsguard, after literally drawing Aegon’s blood with Darksister.

Aemon the Dragonknight was known as such because of the White Gold Dragon Helm he wore. He was Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Bryndon Rivers, as a bastard, inverted his coat of arms to show a white dragon. He was known as Bloodraven.

I’m still working on Daemon... and hopefully I’ll have more here soon.

But I’m still sticking to my original prediction of Arya ending up with Dark Sister...

 

 

I'm so please to see this part of the discussion has sparked your interest!   Nice work.   Standing by for Daemon--any hope at all you might tackle Aemon?   

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Megorova said:

Sorry for flooding your thread. I'll try not to get too much off topic. I'll put under spoiler, those parts of my reply to Dorian Martell's son, that are unrelated to OP.

 

That's what?  3 topics in a row now that you've managed to go off on your own tangents to promote your own ideas that have nothing to do with the host topic?  Wouldn't it just be easier for you to start your own riveting discussions without distracting other people?   I'm so glad you're having a good time.  That said, I find this repeated intrusion to be very bad form.  People do want to speak to you about your ideas and opinions.   Start your own topics.   Have your own discussions.   This relentless hijacking is wearisome and completely unproductive as well as poor manners.