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Varysblackfyre321

Is Ned Stark really that honorble?

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We really put these people under a microscope.  Ned was honorable enough.  More honorable than most if you compare him to Tywin, Stannis, and Robert.  But a leader can't be honorable all of the time.  A leader has responsibilities to the people who depend on him and sometimes that means making hard choices that  hurt a few people to protect a greater number of people. 

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4 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oberyn is beloved in Dorne, and seen as honorable, Victorian a man of respect, and the highs sparrow is loved and respected by many of common for honoring the gods.

Come on. You're just trolling at this point.....

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7 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Was Dunk actually that tall? He gained a reputation for his height by going round calling himself ‘the tall’ - but really Gregor Clegane is bigger than he is, and when he was a child he was undoubtedly pretty small. He should be categorised alongside people of a similar height like Penny and Tyrion.

Perfect.

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29 minutes ago, Foot_Of_The_King said:

Come on. You're just trolling at this point.....

Why is it so hard for people to grasp the possibility of someone having an opinion on the Internet that's contrary to theirs isn't trolling? If you have an argument make it.  If you disagree with how any of the arguments I put forth for why these men are honorable, or why the stated complaints against them do not besmirch their honor please explain your view. Or if saying  troll is the sum of what you wanted to say I fail to see the point of your post.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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11 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Oberyn is beloved in Dorne, and seen as honorable, Victorian a man of respect, and the highs sparrow is loved and respected by many of common for honoring the gods.

None of that makes them honourable. The Ironborn respect Vic because he is strong and brave and skilled, not because he has honour. Oberyn is beloved in Dorne because he's charming and handsome and talented and basically embodies Dornish culture. Nothing honourable about him though. The High Sparrow has the favour of the commoners because he's pious and they respect his piety, because they believe in the Seven. None of them have a reputation of being particularly honourable.

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Comparing Ned's reputation of honorability with that of Victarion and Oberyn… yeah, sure… Victarion, the guy who mocks his prisoner raped repeatedly by his crew… Oberyn, the guy who uses poison in his fights… :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

Comparing Ned's reputation of honorability with that of Victarion and Oberyn… yeah, sure… Victarion, the guy who mocks his prisoner raped repeatedly by his crew… Oberyn, the guy who uses poison in his fights… :rolleyes:

First, Oberyn just the one time we know of to insure his sister's murderer faces Justice. Second, Victorion mocks a Maestor in his custody mocked the Maestor whose been repeatedly raped by his crew. Ok that's not an actual point against his honor-Ironborn culture basically promotes the strongest being able to whatever he wants to the weak-the Maestor is weak.  Hell the Ironborn specificly kidnap women to be raped. 

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

First, Oberyn just the one time we know of to insure his sister's murderer faces Justice. Second, Victorion mocks a Maestor in his custody mocked the Maestor whose been repeatedly raped by his crew. Ok that's not an actual point against his honor-Ironborn culture basically promotes the strongest being able to whatever he wants to the weak-the Maestor is weak.  Hell the Ironborn specificly kidnap women to be raped. 

That doesn't make it honourable! You can argue that Vic is acting according to hus culture and I wouldn't argue, but he is in no way, shape or form an honourable person. Neither is Oberyn (who used poison at least twice by the way)

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29 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

That doesn't make it honourable! You can argue that Vic is acting according to hus culture and I wouldn't argue, but he is in no way, shape or form an honourable person. Neither is Oberyn (who used poison at least twice by the way)

I didn't say it was a point in favor of Victorien's honor; I said it's not a point against Victorian's honor. We have only one actual confirmed use of poison by Oberyn to insure his sister's murderer will face justice for his crime. A noble goal if ever there was one.

Victorien like him or hate him he is honorble given his culture-he's dutiful,brave and shows respect to the old way-he hates Euron for making him into a cuck but he never made an attempt against his older brother for Euron's transgression-for although a violent brute he respects the law of God and his society too much to violate it-even when Euron became king by winning the king's moot, he performed to the best of his ability to see his king's will be done when assighned a task.

Victorian is honorble given his culture.

For the high sparrow;Tell what's a more honorble path to a medeval society than choosing a path to where you service God? What's more honoruble than giving up everything and risking what you have left to achieve this goal by going about it in a utterly rightous(given his society-religiousl zealots have little appeal) to me to achieve this goal.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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54 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I didn't say it was a point in favor of Victorien's honor; I said it's not a point against Victorian's honor. We have only one actual confirmed use of poison by Oberyn to insure his sister's murderer will face justice for his crime. A noble goal if ever there was one.

Victorien like him or hate him he is honorble given his culture-he's dutiful,brave and shows respect to the old way-he hates Euron for making him into a cuck but he never made an attempt against his older brother for Euron's transgression-for although a violent brute he respects the law of God and his society too much to violate it-even when Euron became king by winning the king's moot, he performed to the best of his ability to see his king's will be done when assighned a task.

Victorian is honorble given his culture.

For the high sparrow;Tell what's a more honorble path to a medeval society than choosing a path to where you service God? What's more honoruble than giving up everything and risking what you have left to achieve this goal by going about it in a utterly rightous(given his society-religiousl zealots have little appeal) to me to achieve this goal.

You say it's not a point for Vic's honour, yet in the next paragraph state that he is honourable given his culture. Not true. He honours his traditions, religion and so on. That does not make him honourable. If it did, Roose is a stand-up honourable guy too because he honours his culture and religion too.

We know Oberyn used poison against Gregor. That is confirmed. It is highly likely that he also poisoned Lord Yronwood. He got the nickname 'The Red Viper' for a reason. Sure, it's possible that Yronwood died of a festered injury, but you're really clutching at straws there. Besides, even if Oberyn didn't posion Yronwood (he did), he still poisoned his weapon against Gregor. No matter how noble and just the cause that's still not honourable.

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42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

For the high sparrow;Tell what's a more honorble path to a medeval society than choosing a path to where you service God?

Joke of the day.

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16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She was a whore.

Now this is plain flat out ugly from you.  She is not a whore, she is his wife.  You may choose to equate her behaviour to that of a "whore" whatever perjoratives you mean to give to that but it is simply false.

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She'd opened her legs to her husband's own brother. Women who'd do that are much seen as whores in his society, in his culture. Hell the cheating alone as would get her branded as such.

Care to back any of that up?  There is no doubt that a man / husband can spread it around while a woman / wife cannot but you understand what a whore is, right?  You seem to throw that term around a lot and I think is says more about how you think than whether a straying wife would be viewed or treated as such.

There is nothing in Westerosi culture that says beating your wife to death with your fists is honourable.  Nothing.

Shocking argument :ack:

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

There were rumors he did that. But Wounds fester if untreated and can easily kill a man if not given the proper treatment-doubtful if the Yronwoods thought he'd poisoned their patriarch they would  have taken him as a ward or not attempted poisoning when he was in their custody.

I don't know what you are trying to say.  He has a moniker, "The Red Viper" precisely because of his use of poison in his duel with Lord Yronwood.  We even get to see hom use a poisoned spear in his duel with Gregor.....

Using a poisoned weapon in a duel is not honourable.  He has a reputation throughout Westeros for doing this.  We see him do it.  How hard is this for you to accept?

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

I think you you are failing to recognize of what is honor in a medeval society is not often what seems "moral" in modern society. Yes he is a religious fanatic. And? He's trying to steer the people, the very nobility  of westeros (the southern part at least), back into the arms of the gods and is willing to fight and risk his very life  to achieve such a holy purpose. Life is temporary. He's ultimately  trying to save their souls to which well last forever. You find his morality perverse-ok that's not an indictment of him being dishonorable.

If you aren't shocked by his methods - and clearly he's an "ends justify the means" kind of guy then you'll still have to explain how anything in his betrayal and kidnap of Margaery and Cersei to gain power is honourable.  What in his conduct makes him honourable at all as opposed to driven and ruthlessly pragmatic in trying to accomplish his goals?  And how does this make him more honourable than Ned?  It doesn't, it's like comparing a fish with a potato.

16 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

So just the instance in the one book then. For all Marsh knows Jon simply deserted, killed half-hand in order to get in good with the wildIings to stay alive, got cold feet when he was getting closer to castle black recognizing Mance would be crushed even if he got passed the wall and hedged his bets on the NW and ditched again.

Is his vision perhaps schewed by his dislike of Jon in general...perhaps. 

So it's ok to assume guilt and punish him accordilngly despite his conduct at the Wall being a direct contradiction of this?  That's pretty absurd.  Slynt and Thorne are motivated by personal bias against Jon.  Jon, the son of Eddard Stark and Mormont's choice for his personal steward - and so being groomed for command - just decided to join the wildlings? Riiiight....  And coming back to save Castle Black from an ambush that would have captured it and allowed the Wildlings though the Wall because he had cold feet?  Ok....

It's quite obvious that Aemon and Noye who are balanced and clear thinking know and believe Jon but that Thorne and Slynt are biased and simply want to kill him.  Thorne is not honourable, he is proud, arrogant, sly, vicious, vindictive and treacherous but not honourable or trustworthy at all.  You'll be telling me Slynt is more honourable than Ned next no doubt but you are not convinving me

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14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:
On February 19, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Varysblackfyre321 said:

She was a whore.

Now this is plain flat out ugly from you.  She is not a whore, she is his wife.  You may choose to equate her behaviour to that of a "whore" whatever perjoratives you mean to give to that but it is simply false.

She is the wife who'd opened her legs to her husband's own brother. The woman is going to be viewed as a whore. Which is as low as woman could get in this society- which I pointed out as massively unfair given guys can sleep around with tons of women and get praise for it-please stop  pretending as though me saying the Ironborn(hell most of 7 kingdoms in general with the exception of Dorne), would see her as a whore for having done what she'd done is somehow me victim-blaming.  You want to pretend every culture treats women who commits adultery fairly, that they are never looked down upon and labeled whores-fine but I find that disgusting. 

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

Care to back any of that up?  There is no doubt that a man / husband can spread it around while a woman / wife cannot but you understand what a whore is, right?  You seem to throw that term around a lot and I think is says more about how you think than whether a straying wife would be viewed or treated as such.

There is nothing in Westerosi culture that says beating your wife to death with your fists is honourable.  Nothing.

You understand people have used/still use that term to describe women who just sleep around(particularly when married), a lot right? You understand I'm just trying convey to you what the men a highly patriarchal  society will see a woman who'd do this as yes? The word "whore"  is not just used for literal prositutes and I think you know that. The iron born glorify, rape, robbing the corpses of their enemies, murder, and going out to find more women to rape. The only appropriate course of action that would be seen by them is what  Victorien had done.

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I don't know what you are trying to say.  He has a moniker, "The Red Viper" precisely because of his use of poison in his duel with Lord Yronwood.  We even get to see hom use a poisoned spear in his duel with Gregor.....

Using a poisoned weapon in a duel is not honourable.  He has a reputation throughout Westeros for doing this.  We see him do it.  How hard is this for you to accept?

There are rumors also that he'd crippled the Tyrells heir-it wasn't so.  The only confirmed case of him actually using poison was against Gregore. Lord Yronwood very well could have died from an infection-given the Yronwoods did not seek his life and even took him as a ward likely they arrived at the conclusion.

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

If you aren't shocked by his methods - and clearly he's an "ends justify the means" kind of guy then you'll still have to explain how anything in his betrayal and kidnap of Margaery and Cersei to gain power is honourable.  What in his conduct makes him honourable at all as opposed to driven and ruthlessly pragmatic in trying to accomplish his goals?  And how does this make him more honourable than Ned?  It doesn't, it's like comparing a fish with a potato.

"Betrayl"? He never swore himself to either Cersi or Margary-he makes perfectly clear he(like everyone should be), a servent to the gods first and foremost. "Kidnapped"? he found out Cersi had committed a litany of crimes against them; adultery, treason,matricude, regicide. Thus he arrested her. Prior to that he'd arrested Margery due to suspicions surrounding her of committing adultery.  Neither ultimately will win him any love for the sinners in power who will try to stop his holy mission but he will not buckle-for he is loyal to the gods. They have sinned thus they will have to pay-regardles of one's station one cannot be expected to sin and get away with it.

He will not ask anyone more than he'd do himself; he's chosen to decline the gilded case Cersi was offering and that  many high septons. He is very honorble given his context.

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

So it's ok to assume guilt and punish him accordilngly despite his conduct at the Wall being a direct contradiction of this?  That's pretty absurd.  Slynt and Thorne are motivated by personal bias against Jon.  Jon, the son of Eddard Stark and Mormont's choice for his personal steward - and so being groomed for command - just decided to join the wildlings? Riiiight....  And coming back to save Castle Black from an ambush that would have captured it and allowed the Wildlings though the Wall because he had cold feet?  Ok....

Because great men have never sired cowardly and treacherous sons. Jon was also a squire for the LC. Therefore to not buy his story of halfhand forcing Jon to murder him is ludicrous-the idea he'd join the wildlings to save his own life absurd and recognize the wildlings would be doomed to fail even if they got past the wall(which they would be and Jon knows would as well), and he'd take his bets with siding with the watch-lunacy.

Yes Aemon and Noyle inclined to believe the boy they've grown fond of-they like Jon. Allister would be biased against him but that doesn't mean he's doing this purely out of hatred for the guy-very possible that he simply doesn't buy Jon's story.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

You say it's not a point for Vic's honour, yet in the next paragraph state that he is honourable given his culture. Not true. He honours his traditions, religion and so on. That does not make him honourable. If it did, Roose is a stand-up honourable guy too because he honours his culture and religion 

It's not a point against his honor. He acts accordingly to what his society says is honorble-he honors the gods, he is fearless in battle, dutiful to the king, his people choose regardless of his feelings towards him and loyal to those he's sworn to. Whatever fault the man has(and there are many m), he is honorble given his society-he's so far has acted with perfect accordance to how the Ironborn say their men should act and done what is supposed to be(in their view) honorble. Roose violated guest rights(the biggest crime supposedlbly again. He's given a highborn lady(Briene)  to be raped and murdered by foreign savages, as well as betray the king he'd sworn for another he'd openly help rebel against. 

Roose Bolton is not honorble.

Make no mistake both of these people are not good people-far from it in my opinion. 

But in terms of honor Victorian is simply not honestly comparable to a man such as Roose. 

We know Oberyn used poison against Gregor. That is confirmed. It is highly likely that he also poisoned Lord Yronwood. He got the nickname 'The Red Viper' for a reason. Sure, it's possible that Yronwood died of a festered injury, but you're really clutching at straws there. Besides, even if Oberyn didn't posion Yronwood (he did), he still poisoned his weapon against Gregor. No matter how noble and just the cause that's still not honourabl

I have fully admitted there is one confirmed case of him having used poisoned weapons-against his sister's murderer. For Yronwood all there really is a rumor he used a poison blade-given the Yrwoods did not seek his life it's doubtful Doran did.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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4 minutes ago, Nowy Tends said:

How honorable is Victarion when he sacrifices these innocents virgins, burning them alive?

Let's just say he used to be more honorable.

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1 hour ago, Nowy Tends said:

How honorable is Victarion when he sacrifices these innocents virgins, burning them alive?

 You do realize the Ironborn regularly engage in human sacrifice right? And it's not just upon captured soldiers-civilians get no real protection from their barbarity. Like the only that'd slightly unsettling is that he's sacrificing beautiful women-normally if beautiful women are captured they're made into wives if they're young enough. And Euron allowed nature to decide which God would take them to preserve his honor-through dumping them on a raft and letting them out to see where'd he would put it on fire. 

The Ironborn's sense of what is honorble is often diffrent from what is seen is honorable from other groups-looting corpses would be seen as savage by lords; the Ironborn commanders would openly praise it-human sacrifice is frowned upon by most of Westeroes-but Pyke it is not.

What is honor will vary culture from culture.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

What is honor will vary culture from culture.

Obviously and that's why your point doesn't make sense. You could as well compare the honor of a maori warrior with that of a Tibetan monk…

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2 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It's not a point against his honor. He acts accordingly to what his society says is honorble-he honors the gods, he is fearless in battle, dutiful to the king, his people choose regardless of his feelings towards him and loyal to those he's sworn to. Whatever fault the man has(and there are many m), he is honorble given his society-he's so far has acted with perfect accordance to how the Ironborn say their men should act and done what is supposed to be(in their view) honorble. Roose violated guest rights(the biggest crime supposedlbly again. He's given a highborn lady(Briene)  to be raped and murdered by foreign savages, as well as betray the king he'd sworn for another he'd openly help rebel against. 

Roose Bolton is not honorble.

Make no mistake both of these people are not good people-far from it in my opinion. 

But in terms of honor  of Euron is simply not honestly comparable to a man such as Roose.

I have fully admitted there is one confirmed case of him having used poisoned weapons-against his sister's murderer. For Yronwood all there really is a rumor he used a poison blade-given the Yrwoods did not seek his life it's doubtful Doran did.

See you keep saying that Vic is honourable within his culture because what the Ironborn see as honourable is different to the rest of the world. But here's the issue; you are comparing what the Ironborn see as honourable to what the rest of the world thinks of as honourable. Its a moot point. But if you have to compare them, then there's no question which culture is inherintly more honourable. With that in mind, to me at least, Ned ends up leagues ahead of Vic in terms of honour.

Roose also doesn't ever act against his culture/society. He left a highborn lady; who was his prisoner; at the castle he'd been holding, it was Walder Frey who broke guest right and Roose never swore to Robb as King if you want to get nitpicky with it (as you've shown you're willing to do with your repeated Oberyn argument). So according to your own logic, since Roose has not gone against his cultures standards he must be considered more honourable as Ned.

As for Oberyn, we have no idea the circumstances behind Anders accepting Quentyn being warder there. He may have hated his father, or Doran might have made an offer too good to resist. Hell, maybe Anders just didn't want to take it out on Quentyn.  What we do know is that the nickname 'The Red Viper', given specifically for his use of poison, was given to him after that fight. Since we know he has both the knowledge and the will to poison his blades (from the Gregor fight) along with the fact that George specifically mentions the rumours that poison killed Lord Yronwood, it's pretty obvious that we as readers are meant to understand that Oberyn did poison Yronwood.

Anyway, we're straying from the point. Is Ned really that honourable? Answer: Yes, quite frankly. The fact that his reputation still holds up five books later among pretty much every other character (Jorah, Stannis, Barristan, Robert, Littlefinger, some of the Tyrell's at some point I think, Yohn Royce, possibly some of the other Lords Declarent, nearly every northerner we ever meet, Tyrion, Jaime, possibly even Cersei at one point if I'm not mistaken) with only one character every openly questioning it (Joffrey, and we all know how reliable a character he is) pretty much speaks for itself.

Edited by Adam Yozza

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