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How would Ser Davos react to Stannis giving Shireen to the flames?

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8 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

It doesn't have to be just when the ofher's breach; it could be when they're trying to as well. In either case, however if Melisandre truly sees no other way to adequately stop the menace, or delay them enough, Stannis may very well concede if a good case to him; he's proven quite malleable in the series so far if needed. 

Tthe greyjoys haven't been kings for centuries. And Stannis will not accept Greyjoy is a king. Mance simply isn't a king and for all Stannis knows is dead; or Stannis and thus is showing again a willingness to compromise, this time with allowing a mass murderer escape justice and condemn a man he legally pardoned. 

Mance's son is safe with Sam and Gilly. 

Selyse's little pet wildling who had an ancestor who had an ancestor who was a king beyond the wall, should be of far less worth then Shireen.

Give the man some credit-he might not be this selfish and pigheaded, to where when actually confronted with the reilty of a situation. 

If he dies Shireen is dead. 

If the other's win, Shireen is dead as well-the only difference probably is that she'll be turned into a living abomination; in which case I think Stannis would see Shireen burned then turned into a walker.

you can run circles around your rationalizations, but in your last post even you admitted that Stannis will never burn his daughter and only heir.

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48 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

you can run circles around your rationalizations, but in your last post even you admitted that Stannis will never burn his daughter and only heir.

No I didn't. Read over it again. Here's what my last post said:Or perhaps even in the face of Armageddon he'll opt the course that would put humanity at risk(immensely selfish-if so Show Stannis would be far more selfless than his book counterpart) Or a more immediate call for action call to burning Shireen will be prompted and Melisandre would do so with out waiting for his possible consent. Kinda like how Davos freed up Edric Storm. Stannis was too weak to do something, and thus it was up to his servant to make the hard choice for him. 

 

I merely pointed out it is possibility, that Stannis can so selfish, that'd he'd not sacrifice his daughter even if humanity dies as a result.

I did not claim he will never sacrifice Shireen. Me awknowleging it is a possibility, is not me conceding it is a certainty. 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 hour ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

No I didn't. Read over it again. Here's what my last post said:Or perhaps even in the face of Armageddon he'll opt the course that would put humanity at risk(immensely selfish-if so Show Stannis would be far more selfless than his book counterpart) Or a more immediate call for action call to burning Shireen will be prompted and Melisandre would do so with out waiting for his possible consent. Kinda like how Davos freed up Edric Storm. Stannis was too weak to do something, and thus it was up to his servant to make the hard choice for him. 

 

I merely pointed out it is possibility, that Stannis can so selfish, that'd he'd not sacrifice his daughter even if humanity dies as a result.

I did not claim he will never sacrifice Shireen. Me awknowleging it is a possibility, is not me conceding it is a certainty. 

The theoretical gymnastics you have to perform to come up with a scenario in which book Stannis will kill his kid is proof enough 

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9 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The theoretical gymnastics you have to perform to come up with a scenario in which book Stannis will kill his kid is proof enough 

Proof of what? Honestly man, can you at least admit you made an error in claiming I said Stanns will never sacrifice Sereen?

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3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Proof of what? Honestly man, can you at least admit you made an error in claiming I said Stanns will never sacrifice Sereen?

since you can't seem to see your own responses getting deeper into rationalization gymnastics as to how stannis woill kill his only daughter and heir, no 

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10 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

since you can't seem to see your own responses getting deeper into rationalization gymnastics as to how stannis woill kill his only daughter and heir, no 

Ah. You can't admit you've misread my post.  Even if anyone could clearly see you did. Your stated reason for why seems odd. This is a shame.

Edited by Varysblackfyre321

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1 minute ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Ah. You can't admit you've misread my post.  Even if anyone could clearly see you did. Your stated reason for why seems odd. This is a shame.

The shame real shame is the effort you are putting into replying to me in someone else's thread to argue a point you already conceded. But hey, validation by strangers on the internet is quite compelling 

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Stannis let his elder brother die, had his younger brother killed by a sorceress (and another leal man simply because the guy was trying to protect Stannis' nephew from him), seriously considered murdering said nephew for 'a higher cause' - all that implies that he would have pretty much no problem sacrificing his own daughter when push came to shove.

He didn't want to murder Edric Storm for no reason, either. The stakes have to be pretty high. But when they are high enough Stannis has no problem killing people. The man doesn't care all that much about individual people.

He isn't at the point to kill Shireen yet, but chances are pretty good that he'll get there in time.

And he should be in good company there. The Northmen will also revive the hallowed practice of blood sacrifice again, watering Bran's 'roots' with blood to help his powers to grow.

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56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis let his elder brother die,

I dunna know about that LV. Stannis & JA were snooping into the parentage of the Queens offspring. Then JA dies rather strangely. Stannis fled KL.

59 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

had his younger brother killed by a sorceress (and another leal man simply because the guy was trying to protect Stannis' nephew from him), seriously considered murdering said nephew for 'a higher cause' -

I have brought this up before ---- in DwD martin reveals Mel has a chest of potions & powders ---- my take on it is that Mel used some of those potions & powders on Stannis.

Stannis himself is unclear about the death of Renly.

Yes, Stannis did send Davos on a mission to sneak Mel into SE. I am treated to Davos watching the birth of Mel's shadow baby that appears to Davos as the image of Stannis.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He isn't at the point to kill Shireen yet, but chances are pretty good that he'll get there in time.

Appears to me since Stannis in DwD has been out of Mel's reach for a while he has reverted back to Stannis as he was written in the CoK prologue.

 

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3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I dunna know about that LV. Stannis & JA were snooping into the parentage of the Queens offspring. Then JA dies rather strangely. Stannis fled KL.

Ask yourself what Stannis would expect Davos, Pylos, Cressen, Axell - any man in his service, really - to do if they happened to find out that Selyse was cuckolding him with Patches, passing off a fool's bastard as his own trueborn daughter (a calumny some people actually believe)?

Do you think Stannis Baratheon would accept it if, say, Davos and Cressen talked about this issue and then Cressen suddenly died, causing Davos to flee to his own tower, never telling Stannis the truth?

I don't think so. By Stannis own standards Stannis would have been obliged to tell his king and brother what he thought was the truth. He was, in a sense, already prevaricating when he approached Jon Arryn. He should have gone at once to Robert, and left the whole issue - for good or ill - to the judgment of the king. That would have been his duty.

Instead he ran away from a woman, hiding on an island while he also feared/expected that said woman would kill his brother and king, Robert Baratheon, just as she (in his opinion) had killed Jon Arryn.

That is both a dereliction of duty and - considering that Stannis prepares for war before King Robert actually dies - also a calculated move deliver Robert to his enemies. Stannis could have warned him that the Lannisters might want to kill. Not doing that hands some of the blame for Robert's death to Stannis - not all that much, but he is to be blamed to a point.

Just as Lysa is to be blamed for the Red Wedding and the downfall of the Tullys in the sense that she abandoned her brother, sister, and nephew to their enemies. And just as Lysa most likely read all those letters that reached the Eyrie, relishing at the thought that her father and sister got what they deserved, Stannis likely sat in the citadel of Dragonstone thinking that he would not grieve once Cersei had finally put down Robert. Instead he would avenge his brother's death, climb the Iron Throne, and give the Realm a much better king than the drunken fool his brother had been.

Stannis didn't like his royal brother. He wasn't as twisted as killing him himself but he did nothing to try to prevent his death.

Which shows where his priorities lie.

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I have brought this up before ---- in DwD martin reveals Mel has a chest of potions & powders ---- my take on it is that Mel used some of those potions & powders on Stannis.

Could very well be. But Stannis always seems to be himself. However, it is certainly possible that the powders helped her entice and seduce Stannis. After all, the man really must have severe problems with women, and that should be worse when he is around very attractive women, so the powders may have helped him to calm down somewhat and enjoy himself.

The implication in ADwD is that Stannis is in Mel's bed rather often, implying that he enjoys himself there.

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Stannis himself is unclear about the death of Renly.

That is what he tells Davos. And it might be that he never gave Mel the order to murder Renly. But it could have happened between the lines. Keep in mind that these morons first went to Storm's End because Mel had had the vision from the Blackwater where 'Renly' was falling in Stannis' back, preventing his victory.

They went there to prevent that development - which means they went there to kill him. The vision could only not happen if Renly was dead (in their opinion - they were mistaken there) and that means that Stannis was never truly honest in intending to make a deal with Renly. A deal would have meant Renly and his guys would have been with Stannis at the Blackwater - enabling him to fall in Stannis back as seen in the vision.

They couldn't have that.

Now, Stannis claims he did not kill Renly with his own hands - which is technically true in the sense that it was his shadow who did the deed - but he never says he never authorized his murder. But on deeper level it is actually true that Stannis slew his brother personally. After all, the shadow was created using his life force and semen, and that makes him a very important ingredient of that spell. It might even be that Stannis dreamed about/saw - or even controlled - both the shadow assassins when they killed their targets.

Stannis only realizes what he did when he killed Renly after the fact. And even that doesn't lead him to abstaining from the shadow assassin thing considering that the next who has to go this way is Ser Cortnay Penrose.

A good/honorable/pleasant man would have found another way to deal with a traitorous brother. Especially a brother who had nearly as much right to claim the throne as he had. Stannis doesn't have any proof that Cersei's children are not Robert's.

3 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Appears to me since Stannis in DwD has been out of Mel's reach for a while he has reverted back to Stannis as he was written in the CoK prologue.

Even that Stannis is cold and calculating. He discarded Cressen because the man was no longer of use and chooses not to stop the people who mock him in front of the entire court. Cressen was a surrogate father to the Baratheon brothers, especially Stannis and Renly. That was a very mean thing to do.

Stannis doesn't want to be mean and cold but he is. He is actually one of the most dangerous man in Westeros if you look at how he deals with people. Melisandre herself points that out when she makes it clear that Jon should fear Stannis' silences, not his words. If Stannis no longer talks to you, asks for your opinion, includes you in his council you could just as well be dead. 

One wonders whether Mel briefed Stannis about the Cressen attempt on her life or not. If she did, Stannis allowed the old man to make his choice and kill himself. That would have been a very ugly thing to do.

We do know that Mel informs Stannis about things she sees, else Davos would have just disappeared after he returned from the Blackwater and tried to murder Mel. She saw it in the flames and gave Axell orders to arrest Davos. They could have killed him and Stannis may have never learned that Davos returned from the battle.

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29 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Appears to me since Stannis in DwD has been out of Mel's reach for a while he has reverted back to Stannis as he was written in the CoK prologue.

 

He's still committing human sacrifices to garner Rh'lor's favor.

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2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

He's still committing human sacrifices to garner Rh'lor's favor.

Dude/dudette I have been bombarded by LV.

I seem to remember when some of the Rhaloo's in DwD were yapping Stannis said --- pray harder.

Give me some time to chit chat with LV and I will look for the Stannis pray harder quote.

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5 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Dude/dudette I have been bombarded by LV.

I seem to remember when some of the Rhaloo's in DwD were yapping Stannis said --- pray harder.

Give me some time to chit chat with LV and I will look for the Stannis pray harder quote.

Yes he did say/ "pray harder"-in response to them suggesting, that they start just sacrificing non-believers at randomn to try to get the red god's power. He still does them however for those who've been found to have committed a crime. I honestly don't see the "change in behavior" people keep citing, what exactly is Stannis doing or not doing now that is so diffrent from what he has done when he's been with her?

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How would Ser Davos react to Stannis giving Shireen to the flames?

Despair.  He would lose faith in Stannis.  You know, Stannis hasn't done anything to deserve the faith that Davos gives him.  He takes off the man's fingers to punish him for crimes but raises him up for saving his ass during the war.  And Davos thinks that's awesome.  Davos is simple indeed.  There was nothing wise about Stannis then and today.  

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39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Instead he ran away from a woman, hiding on an island while he also feared/expected that said woman would kill his brother and king, Robert Baratheon, just as she (in his opinion) had killed Jon Arryn.

JA and Stannis were snooping into the parentage of Cersei's children. JA suddenly dies. Stannis flees to Dragonstone. Makes sense to me. Renly left KL when naive Eddard didn't take up the offer.

Contrary to what readers and Stannis think, King Bob gave Stannis the Fleet and Dragonstone. That is a task that takes a seasoned man.

49 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Just as Lysa is to be blamed for the Red Wedding and the downfall of the Tullys in the sense that she abandoned her brother, sister, and nephew to their enemies. And just as Lysa most likely read all those letters that reached the Eyrie, relishing at the thought that her father and sister got what they deserved, Stannis likely sat in the citadel of Dragonstone thinking that he would not grieve once Cersei had finally put down Robert. Instead he would avenge his brother's death, climb the Iron Throne, and give the Realm a much better king than the drunken fool his brother had been.

This is irrelevant.

51 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Even that Stannis is cold and calculating. He discarded Cressen because the man was no longer of use and chooses not to stop the people who mock him in front of the entire court. Cressen was a surrogate father to the Baratheon brothers, especially Stannis and Renly. That was a very mean thing to do.

Stannis is cold and calculating. He tried to retire Cressen. Cressen did not want to be retired. Stannis was not going to kick Cressen to the curb, though.

56 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

We do know that Mel informs Stannis about things she sees, else Davos would have just disappeared after he returned from the Blackwater and tried to murder Mel. She saw it in the flames and gave Axell orders to arrest Davos. They could have killed him and Stannis may have never learned that Davos returned from the battle.

I am not disputing that Mel sees threats to her life in her fires. What I am suggesting is that Mel used her powders and potions, as described in DwD, to influence her targeted audience. Mel is not all powerful and martin has written a story that is as of yet incomplete.

 

I might have some spelling errors in here. Maybe left out a word or two.---- I'm not in the mood to correct them.    If Stannis burns Shireen, I think Davos would leave Stannis's service.  I dunna think that Stannis will be responsible for Shirleen's death. That is if indeed Shireen does die.

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4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ask yourself what Stannis would expect Davos, Pylos, Cressen, Axell - any man in his service, really - to do if they happened to find out that Selyse was cuckolding him with Patches, passing off a fool's bastard as his own trueborn daughter (a calumny some people actually believe)?

Do you think Stannis Baratheon would accept it if, say, Davos and Cressen talked about this issue and then Cressen suddenly died, causing Davos to flee to his own tower, never telling Stannis the truth?

I don't think so. By Stannis own standards Stannis would have been obliged to tell his king and brother what he thought was the truth. He was, in a sense, already prevaricating when he approached Jon Arryn. He should have gone at once to Robert, and left the whole issue - for good or ill - to the judgment of the king. That would have been his duty.

Instead he ran away from a woman, hiding on an island while he also feared/expected that said woman would kill his brother and king, Robert Baratheon, just as she (in his opinion) had killed Jon Arryn.

Hmm. You know what you're right; if any servant of Stannis failed to support their suspicions of someone cuckholding him and trying to pass off their offspring as his heir, and fled to save himself rather than report it to Stannis,he'd execute them, no ifs, or buts about. And he wouldn't acc

Hell he executes for surrendering rather than have himself and his men be butchered by soldiers of the lanister. He really is a hypocrite. 

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Stannis likely sat in the citadel of Dragonstone thinking that he would not grieve once Cersei had finally put down Robert. Instead he would avenge his brother's death, climb the Iron Throne, and give the Realm a much better king than the drunken fool his brother had been.

At last Stannis could step out of his brother's shadow? I never really bought Stannis had utterly rightous reasons for waging this war-that it was simply a heavy he was forced to bear begrudgingly. 

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3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

JA and Stannis were snooping into the parentage of Cersei's children. JA suddenly dies. Stannis flees to Dragonstone. Makes sense to me. Renly left KL when naive Eddard didn't take up the offer.

It makes sense if Stannis values his own safety over that of his duty to the monarch and elder brother.

Renly left when Robert was dying knowing full Cersi would have his head. . Stannis left, knowing full well his king is in a nest of vipers to which he may be bitten any day. 

Stannis' fleeing is worse since it was done when he could have at least tried to warn his brother; with Renly it was simply too late for him to do anything for his brother.

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

If Stannis burns Shireen, I think Davos would leave Stannis's service

I honestly don't see it; he'd allow Stannis to burn the seven,and decided to stick by him after he'd seriously pondered burning Edric Storm; and both cases the thought of abandoning Stannis never sprang up; why should Shireen be his breaking point?

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9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

JA and Stannis were snooping into the parentage of Cersei's children. JA suddenly dies. Stannis flees to Dragonstone. Makes sense to me. Renly left KL when naive Eddard didn't take up the offer.

It makes sense to you that Stannis abandoned his brother to mercy of poisoner? It makes sense to you that Stannis ensured that his brother and king remained ignorant about the fact that he had no trueborn heirs of his own body?

That doesn't make sense to me. Stannis had no right to withhold that information from him. He should have done what Davos did after he had saved Edric - gone to his king and await his judgment. The same Stannis should have gone to Robert expecting him to rule on the accusation he, Stannis, laid at the feet of Cersei and Jaime.

But he apparently didn't have the courage for that.

Also keep in mind that Stannis was pissed about the fact that Robert turned to Ned as his new Hand rather than offering Stannis the office. In that sense he very much behaves like Maekar there - with the exception that Maekar had no reason to believe that Bloodraven and/or Queen Aelinor intended to kill King Aerys I. Stannis had very good reasons to assume that Cersei would kill Robert.

9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Contrary to what readers and Stannis think, King Bob gave Stannis the Fleet and Dragonstone. That is a task that takes a seasoned man.

Sure, no question about that. But King Robert didn't command or give Stannis leave to take the bulk of the royal fleet to Dragonstone. As Master of Ships Stannis' place was at court, not on his island. Him running away with the ships was at best a dereliction of duty and worst treason - all while King Robert was still alive.

Robert was likely happy to be rid of Stannis' personal presence, but a king more interested in his own government may have wondered what the hell his brother intended to do with all the ships he had stolen.

9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Stannis is cold and calculating. He tried to retire Cressen. Cressen did not want to be retired. Stannis was not going to kick Cressen to the curb, though.

I didn't say Stannis does his dirty work himself. But he is no just man, you can see it there in the Prologue when he allows Cressen to humiliated in front of the entire court. That is nothing 'a truly just man' would do.

9 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I am not disputing that Mel sees threats to her life in her fires. What I am suggesting is that Mel used her powders and potions, as described in DwD, to influence her targeted audience. Mel is not all powerful and martin has written a story that is as of yet incomplete.

She could have influenced Stannis' libido that way - his personality not so much.

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7 hours ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

At last Stannis could step out of his brother's shadow? I never really bought Stannis had utterly rightous reasons for waging this war-that it was simply a heavy he was forced to bear begrudgingly. 

Stannis would be a righteous guy if he had stood by the side of his royal brother when the man died. But he abandoned him a year before that. And keeping quiet about Cersei's infidelity also preventing King Robert from taking another wife, fathering some legitimate children before his early death.

It is awfully convenient that Robert left no trueborn children of his own body from the point of view of Stannis if one thinks about it. Telling Robert would have rid the court of Cersei, Jaime, and the bastards, but Stannis would only have been the heir presumptive until Robert had taken a new wife and produced some trueborn heirs.

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How long before the information that Dany has three dragons reaches Stannis's ears? Davos is now in possession of the information after his trip to White Harbor. 

I think that's something that might prompt him to do something. 

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