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Chancho

Did Edmure save Robb's Life?

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yeah not really debating that there couldn't be more but that they would need to fit in the relatively small castle for the most part makes sense. They are either camping in the pass, blocking traffic, or they are in the castle. The terrain itself -- quite mountainous with only the pass --  does not lend itself to large, fortified camps. Blocking the pass with the troops would make more sense though, akin to the way Tywin had near the Green Fork

Yeah, i was thinking something quite like that after the last talk, at least for me would make sense and road block is a must at this scenario... But space could be indeed be a factor... But Overall the place must be as guarded as can be and some more. Its a Super important for TYwin, the rubble of moat cailin had a garrison of what 400?

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36 minutes ago, Chancho said:

Yeah, i was thinking something quite like that after the last talk, at least for me would make sense and road block is a must at this scenario... But space could be indeed be a factor... But Overall the place must be as guarded as can be and some more. Its a Super important for TYwin, the rubble of moat cailin had a garrison of what 400?

Two hundred, per what Ned wanted. 

“Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. ”

Robb mostly agreed and I'm inclined to believe he just matched Ned's suggestion:

“I’d leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly,”

Robb left 400 men at the twins to augment/control the 400 men Frey wanted to leave. That higher number makes sense since they have two identical castles as well as the water tower to garrison.

RR is a relatively small castle -- one probably similar in size to Golden Tooth -- and 200 is too many men for it, per Jaime. Winterfell is much larger and only had a 200 man guard.

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42 minutes ago, Chancho said:

Yeah, i was thinking something quite like that after the last talk, at least for me would make sense and road block is a must at this scenario... But space could be indeed be a factor... But Overall the place must be as guarded as can be and some more. Its a Super important for TYwin, the rubble of moat cailin had a garrison of what 400?

200

"When the door had closed behind him, Ned turned back to his wife. “Once you are home, send word to Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover under my seal. They are to raise a hundred bowmen each and fortify Moat Cailin. Two hundred determined archers can hold the Neck against an army. Instruct Lord Manderly that he is to strengthen and repair all his defenses at White Harbor, and see that they are well manned. And from this day on, I want a careful watch kept over Theon Greyjoy. If there is war, we shall have sore need of his father’s fleet.”"

 

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Robb's campaing in the west should have got a Pov or at least more info

Forley Prester army just vanished from the narrative, Dave Lannister being a able and brave commander but refusing to taking the field against Robb even when he split his forces, Robb letters to Luwin talking about several castles that were taken but not which castles, Stafford taking the "sweepings of Lannisport" and being smashed at Oxcross but somehow the city still too strong for Robb to take it, Blackfish and Robb's plan to lure Tywin and the place set up for the battle, the whole Westerling fiasco and so on.

A Blackfish POV in that would be great

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb's campaing in the west should have got a Pov or at least more info

Forley Prester army just vanished from the narrative, Dave Lannister being a able and brave commander but refusing to taking the field against Robb even when he split his forces, Robb letters to Luwin talking about several castles that were taken but not which castles, Stafford taking the "sweepings of Lannisport" and being smashed at Oxcross but somehow the city still too strong for Robb to take it, Blackfish and Robb's plan to lure Tywin and the place set up for the battle, the whole Westerling fiasco and so on.

A Blackfish POV in that would be great

Those are good points . We know so little about everything that happened in the West , it would have been nice if we had a scene with Cat and Blackfish talking about what happened in the West and we could have gotten some details about Oxcross, Golden Tooth  and everything after that . 

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1 hour ago, Arthur Peres said:

Robb's campaing in the west should have got a Pov or at least more info

Forley Prester army just vanished from the narrative, Dave Lannister being a able and brave commander but refusing to taking the field against Robb even when he split his forces, Robb letters to Luwin talking about several castles that were taken but not which castles, Stafford taking the "sweepings of Lannisport" and being smashed at Oxcross but somehow the city still too strong for Robb to take it, Blackfish and Robb's plan to lure Tywin and the place set up for the battle, the whole Westerling fiasco and so on. 

A Blackfish POV in that would be great

indeed

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5 minutes ago, Blackfish Tully said:

Those are good points . We know so little about everything that happened in the West , it would have been nice if we had a scene with Cat and Blackfish talking about what happened in the West and we could have gotten some details about Oxcross, Golden Tooth  and everything after that . 

 

I prefer the idea of a diferent point of view of Robb. Blackfish would be the better one because he was present in a lot of diferent places, but a Greatjon Pov would also be nice(more info on Mors and Hother).

A Pov of Blackfish would also help revel a lot of others issues like why he refused to marry, how he saw the lords of the vale, his reaction to Lysa not only refusing to help but also not comming to Hoster's funeral, does he knows about the whole forced abortion thing on Lysa? how he saw Robb as a king or a military leader, what did Robb and his army knew about the war while they were fighting in the west..

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I think George was quite right in his instinct, when writing, to just have Robb off-stage. There's much more of the sense of his elusiveness and his beginning to form a kind of legend or reputation around himself if all we hear are brief, unreliable snippets of information. George has since mused that maybe Robb should have been a POV or whatever, but I strongly disagree with him on that. 

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1 minute ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

I prefer the idea of a diferent point of view of Robb. Blackfish would be the better one because he was present in a lot of diferent places, but a Greatjon Pov would also be nice(more info on Mors and Hother).

A Pov of Blackfish would also help revel a lot of others issues like why he refused to marry, how he saw the lords of the vale, his reaction to Lysa not only refusing to help but also not comming to Hoster's funeral, does he knows about the whole forced abortion thing on Lysa? how he saw Robb as a king or a military leader, what did Robb and his army knew about the war while they were fighting in the west..

Also with Blackfish we would probably  get some information about the 9 penny war and Robert's rebellion , in a lot of ways he's like Barristan in that he has a vast knowledge about the last 50 years or so of history in Westeros . 

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

I think George was quite right in his instinct, when writing, to just have Robb off-stage. There's much more of the sense of his elusiveness and his beginning to form a kind of legend or reputation around himself if all we hear are brief, unreliable snippets of information. George has since mused that maybe Robb should have been a POV or whatever, but I strongly disagree with him on that. 

I agree that a Robb pov would be unecessary, but I never got the impression that Robb is a material for legends and songs. When we see him from Catelyn or Bran is pretty much Robb putting up a front to his lord trying to be bigger than he is but when he is close to his family he is pretty much a average teenager. 

Also Robb's pov would be too depressive, betrayed by his best friend and mother, father sister and brothers killed, his home got burned pretty much everyone he ever meet is dead or in the chopping block.

I wouldn't call not having a pov in the West a mistake, but it is a missed oportunity. If Robb is being setted to be a legend would help seeing it from one of his bannerman or from one of his enemies seeing the events from a Lannister point of view like Dave would make Robb sound much more fearfull than from his mom.

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25 minutes ago, Arthur Peres said:

 

I wouldn't call not having a pov in the West a mistake, but it is a missed oportunity. If Robb is being setted to be a legend would help seeing it from one of his bannerman or from one of his enemies seeing the events from a Lannister point of view like Dave would make Robb sound much more fearfull than from his mom.

And what gets cut to make room for this? There's nothing in ACoK that I would say should be cut. It's a very tight novel. Adding in a POV close to Robb would simply expand the novel, reducing that tightness, and for what? I can't see what the missed opportunity is. We get the Lannister perspective on Robb from Tyrion, and in a way from Arya as she witnesses Tywin and co. reacting to the changing landscape thanks to Robb's decisions.

I just don't see the point. Seeing exactly what he's doing will simply reduce the impact of the other characters _not_ knowing what he's doing. The surprise of his botching the Frey alliance goes away if you've got a Spicer or Westerling POV, or a Blackfish POV. 

Sometimes more is not really more.

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I don't think that anything has to be cut. ACoK is a much smaller book than ASoS and the chapters aren't that big anyway. 30 more pages wouldn't be anything absurd.

Killing the surprise of the broken oath would be bad that I agree. but the chapter could end when the northem take the craig with Robb taking the arrow. Would be a great cliff hanger for that part of the story.

We don't see Tyrion thinking much of Robb, we see him bragging with Cleos about how Tywin and Stafford will surround and beat Robb but when the knews of Oxcross came we see through the eyes of Sansa.

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7 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Two hundred, per what Ned wanted. 

did Cat even get a chance to pass that message on? in Bran's pov chapters he is eagerly asking if the ravens are from his mother but they are rather messages from Alyn and Sansa.

Also if it was a case of sending a raven Ned would have done it himself, Cat was supposed to carry out the order in person. 

Quote

 

Robb mostly agreed and I'm inclined to believe he just matched Ned's suggestion:

“I’d leave a small force here to hold Moat Cailin, archers mostly,”

right, but it is Cat who asks him that, rather than gives him Ned's message

"Good," she said. She could hear echoes of Ned in his voice, as he sat there, puzzling over the map. "Tell me more."
 
Robb is actually counting on the Reed's to be the deterrent. 
 
Quote

RR is a relatively small castle -- one probably similar in size to Golden Tooth -- and 200 is too many men for it, per Jaime.

200 in peace time. the war is pretty much over from Jaime's POV. 

3 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

When we see him from Catelyn or Bran is pretty much Robb putting up a front to his lord trying to be bigger than he is but when he is close to his family he is pretty much a average teenager. 

that is the point, when we hear of Robb's exploits from the singers at Riverrun, the messages sent to Winterfell or the hysteria from the likes of Swyft and Lancel it gives him a larger than life persona, at that point in the books Robb very much looked like the classical fantasy hero. by giving him his own POV or the Blackfish you would lessen the impact of him being a fantasy hero, he'd be a regular military commander. 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

it's 600 miles from the Crag to Riverrun (your numbers not mine )

i actually pointed out that it is less than, i was rounding up. 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

that's a massive amount of ground to cover

as is the 750 miles to kings landing plus the time it takes to win the battle and the news to reach Riverrun. there is simply no way that the 750 journey, plus the battle, plus the raven being sent out is considerably longer than the 600 mile journey he would have taken to the crag, if anything it is likely to be the quicker journey. 

thanks to the news of Bran and Rickon's deaths we have a fair understanding of the time line, Cat hears of Winterfell and Stannis' loss at roughly the same time while Robb hears the news while he is still being nursed (thanks to him confirming that it was this news that turned it into a relationship).

 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

. Robb has just gotten married and he needs to collect his men who are scattered across the Westerlands

according to who? Ashemark, the mines and the cattle were all mentioned about before the crag. we don't hear of anything after the it. 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

and  make his way out of the Westerlands and with Jeyne along he will not be able to push it to hard .

eh? you are really blaming Jeyne rather than Robb's actual injury? come on, this is graping. 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

The timeline shows that it was about 5 weeks between Robb's marriage and his return to Riverrun so it really did not take him to long to get there considering he had to travel 600 miles through mostly enemy territory and carrying his wife and all her crap  along . 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8

According to that doc the news of Robb's marriage reached Riverrun the 16th day of the ninth month, obviously the marriage would have had to have happened before that and Robb's return was on the second day of the 11th month. It is 7 weeks exactly between the two dates plus a few days given the news was sent either by raven or by messenger to the freys at Riverrun. 

I hate to be rude but when you call 7 weeks 'about 5 weeks' and you misread a map and argue that kings landing is closer to Riverrun than the Crag is it looks obvious that you are just rejecting things because you don't like what the evidence suggests. 

I'm not saying i am correct, but all the available evidence does suggest that Robb would have been bed ridden when Tywin was back in the west. 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

we did not have a POV in the Westerlands so making any kind of definite statement about what went down there is really problematic , if you want to believe that Robb would have still been bed ridden after Tywin covered 600 miles to get to the Crag go ahead. 

he was still bed ridden when Tywin made a 750 journey to kings landing and fought in a battle, so there is no reason to doubt he would not have made the shorter journey in a similar amount of time. 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 so Tywin floating down the River from Tumbler Falls to half a day of Kings Landing did not cut his trip dramatically?

well not that dramatic. look at riverrun and look at tumbler's falls. he still would have done the majority of his travel on land. 

12 hours ago, Blackfish Tully said:

 

   How long do you think it took him to float his army down the river on barges versus him having to force march his men 500 or so miles .

 

yup, i have took this on board from the start, that is why i have constantly pointed out that, despite being a longer journey by 150 miles and a battle to be fought and won both journeys would have taken similar times. i have been consistent in pointing that out, glad you are finally on the same page

 

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

 

well not that dramatic. look at riverrun and look at tumbler's falls. he still would have done the majority of his travel on land. 

 

this is starting to get tiresome so i'm going to let this argument die but i did want to point out that according to the map Riverrun is significantly closer to Tumbler Falls then it is to Kings Landing so he would have done most of his traveling on the river. 

https://quartermaester.info/

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18 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

that is the point, when we hear of Robb's exploits from the singers at Riverrun, the messages sent to Winterfell or the hysteria from the likes of Swyft and Lancel it gives him a larger than life persona, at that point in the books Robb very much looked like the classical fantasy hero. by giving him his own POV or the Blackfish you would lessen the impact of him being a fantasy hero, he'd be a regular military commander. 

Larger than life persona for who? the reader or for the characters in the history?

Robb being a fantasy hero for the people of Westeros would make more sense to see it from one of those people.

If is for the reader it fails flat. You can't be Perseus or Achilles when is your mom telling the tale.

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5 hours ago, Arthur Peres said:

Larger than life persona for who? the reader or for the characters in the history?

Robb being a fantasy hero for the people of Westeros would make more sense to see it from one of those people.

If is for the reader it fails flat. You can't be Perseus or Achilles when is your mom telling the tale.

It quite clearly did not fail flat, the Red Wedding is one of the most famous events in fiction of the 21st century and it is built on the reader (and viewer) seeing Robb as the hero of the story. It would never have been as nearly as compelling or shocking if Robb was not seen as being destined for greatness. 

 

GRRM wanted him to seem a legend in the making, only for him to be cruelly wiped out. 

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