Maesters pre-Andal invasion.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Rufus Snow said:

The more I think about it, there more questions arise about the past history of the maesters and the Citadel. There must have been a big shift following Aegon's conquest, because maesters are now sworn to serve 'the realm' as well as their posted castle. The Grand Maester is specifically elected to counsel the Iron Throne - was there a GM before? And if so, what duties did he have?

Was there a similar shift in emphasis when the Andals came? The Citadel's patron, House Hightower was amongst the first to adopt the Seven, and then went on to raise the Starry Sept. What struck me though, is that the oldest building in the entire Citadel is the castle on the Isle of Ravens, which used to be a pirate lair in the Age of Heroes. Seeing as the Citadel was already founded, and House Hightower had depended on trade back into the Dawn Age, how come a pirate lair was left unmolested so close to Oldtown? I can see why the Hightowers wanted the pirates gone, but why wait so long? Or had the pirates taken it off a pre-existing House - after all it was a proper castle with a weirwood tree and all. Was taking this castle the start of the maesters' relationship with ravens (and the weirnet???) or had they already established relations?

Hmmmm, too many questions.......

Well it's the Oldest Part, but was it where Peremore was based out of? Or the Track of Land next to it? and pirates from where? Iron Islands? Summer Seas?  Does the Hightower or it's base predate the Pirate Castle? 

@Bobity.

There is a sphinx on the property, and weirwood tree, and a pirate castle. As i mention above draggin Iron Born into this, Nagga's Hill is 44 Weirwoods, the Farwyns are rumored Skinchangers (Shpinx), and the Iron Born love Old Town. I mention else where, but there are some weird links between the Andals and the Iron Born, but also Iron Born with Old Gods, very confusing but i suspect it's important. Hugors legend mentions 44 sons and their are 44 Iron Islands and 44 Weirwoods on Nagga's hill. Coincidence? Maybe. Axes and Hammers carved in the Vale and an Iron Born hero named Balon Blackskin who fought with axe and hammer and had black skin that no weapon could harm (Valyrian Steel?). Yet we know the Andals cut down trees. There is a house on the Iron Islands that is in the middle of a forest, can't remember which House off hand, but this reminds me of an old thread about the Two different cultures apparent on the Iron Islands. 

I remember being torn about House Hoare as Hoare appears before the Andals, yet, after the Andal invasion, they are accounted as tainted and mostly Andal, having the Black hair, eyes and heart. (which contradicts the color were are told andals are, blondes with blue eyes.). 

 

[Jaak]

4 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

I remember being torn about House Hoare as Hoare appears before the Andals, yet, after the Andal invasion, they are accounted as tainted and mostly Andal, having the Black hair, eyes and heart. (which contradicts the color were are told andals are, blondes with blue eyes.). 

With Lannisters, we know that although the Lannister name was adopted, the male line of Lann the Golden was broken (or dispossessed) - and Joffrey Lydden, expressly an Andal, was the King even in the lifetime of his Lannister wife.

With the dislike of ironmen for writing even after Andal conquest, we do not have that sort of detail for the Andal-Ironmen alliance that overthrew Greyirons. For some reason, their Riverlands and Westerlands neighbours omitted to write down that gossip, too. But it would not be odd if the Andal taint of Hoares that they would not advertize on the Isles included an Andal male line.

[The Wondering Wolf]

18 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

why is there no Maesters mentioned before the Doom?

At least Maester Willys and Maester Jellicoe are stated to have lived before the Doom. It is a bit ambiguous with Maester Yorrick.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Jaak said:

With Lannisters, we know that although the Lannister name was adopted, the male line of Lann the Golden was broken (or dispossessed) - and Joffrey Lydden, expressly an Andal, was the King even in the lifetime of his Lannister wife.

With the dislike of ironmen for writing even after Andal conquest, we do not have that sort of detail for the Andal-Ironmen alliance that overthrew Greyirons. For some reason, their Riverlands and Westerlands neighbours omitted to write down that gossip, too. But it would not be odd if the Andal taint of Hoares that they would not advertize on the Isles included an Andal male line.

Possible. 
The more interesting part to me was that the Black hair, Eyes and such are attributed to the Andals, not the First Men.

[Nittanian]

32 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The more interesting part to me was that the Black hair, Eyes and such are attributed to the Andals, not the First Men.

The dark physical characteristics of the Hoares aren't attributed to Andals. Priests of the Drowned God disliked that the Seven were making inroads to the isles, so they claimed the Hoares had been tainted by wedding Andals.

Quote

Archmaester Hake tells us that the kings of House Hoare were, "black of hair, black of eye, and black of heart." Their foes claimed their blood was black as well, darkened by the "Andal taint," for many of the early Hoare kings took maidens of that ilk to wife. True ironborn had salt water in their veins, the priests of the Drowned God proclaimed; the black-blooded Hoares were false kings, ungodly usurpers who must be cast down ...

... Were the kings of House Hoare truly as ungodly as these holy men proclaimed? Hake believes they were, but Archmaester Haereg takes a very different view, suggesting that the true crime of the "black-blooded" kings was neither impiety nor demon-worship, but tolerance. For it was under the Hoares that the Faith of the Andals came to the Iron Islands for the first time.

 

[AlaskanSandman]

19 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

The dark physical characteristics of the Hoares aren't attributed to Andals. Priests of the Drowned God disliked that the Seven were making inroads to the isles, so they claimed the Hoares had been tainted by wedding Andals.

 

Why make mention of it if it's not different than the common iron born? 

And it was haereg who said that, not the drowned priest. 

Hake though was actually an Iron man his self from Harlaw i believe. So likely closer to the source than Haereg.  

Ser Harras Harlaw  is the only mentioned Knight on the Iron Islands. 

Being that the Harlaws are likely converts of the Faith, it would make sense that Hake isn't blasting Hoare for marrying an Andal. 

[Damon_Tor]

On 8/27/2018 at 4:47 AM, rotting sea cow said:

I always had the impression that the Maester order was born with a similar purpose of the Night Watch: Topreserve the knowledge necessary to fight the Others, should they ever come back.

As the Night Watch, they also forgot their original mission

I think the Others are a red herring to some degree, based mostly on GRRM's common themes and political philosophy. The true enemy are the Children of the Forest, and that's the enemy the Citadel is tasked to defeat.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 11:27 AM, By Odin's Beard said:

Grand Maester Conspiracy to rid the world of magic.  Science will kill god.

Yes, exactly right.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 11:44 AM, Ser Leftwich said:

They may just not know any better about the Children. I have thought of it as the maesters have become the thralls of the Faith of the Seven/Andals/Hightowers.

I think its the other way around. The Faith of the Seven, in its modern form anyway, is a designed religion, specifically created with a fractured deity to prevent the formation of a gestalt, like a weakened virus acting as a vaccine, in this case against manipulation by the Children.

 

On 8/27/2018 at 1:00 PM, Rufus Snow said:

Yes. Although Marwyn doesn't mention it directly, I'd guess he'd also include such things as the weirnet, warging and greenseers as being things 'the Citadel has no place for'. Will the maesters also turn against the Seven in turn?

When the Children are gone and the last Weirwood burned to ash? Maybe.

 

On 8/31/2018 at 3:48 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

But no more than a city for trade. No religious hub pre-andals. No scholarly Maesters in every castle pre-Targaryens. How can we even know the Weirwoods on the grounds is any more important than any other then? The Blackwoods is bigger, there are three at Highgarden, and the Black Gate apparently has a head. So wheres the center of power for the weirwood network then?

Basically, where is the center of power in Westeros?

 

On 8/31/2018 at 10:38 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Depends how you want to define 'power', but my tingley-spidey sense keeps pointing towards the Isle of Faces

Yes.

 

On 8/31/2018 at 11:10 AM, Lollygag said:

I think LF may agree with you and he's all about power. It’s obvious why he wants Harrenhal politically, but it also comes with the Isle of Faces.

I do think Littlefinger is aware of the mythic significance of the castle. The castle's proximity to the Isle of Faces isn't a coincidence though.

 

On 9/1/2018 at 11:39 PM, AlaskanSandman said:

Yet the Maesters dont believe in magic, so why waste a ton of money on glass candles?

Maesters teach that there's no magic, that doesn't mean they believe there's no magic. And either way, it's clear that the Citadel isn't unified on the topic of magic; there are at least two factions. The majority seems to be onboard with the magic-supression/extinction plan, while Marwyn's minority seems to want to use magic for their own purposes. That said, I have no reason to believe their end goal isn't the same: the defeat of the Children.

 

On 9/2/2018 at 9:18 AM, Lollygag said:

I forgot to add something. In AFFC, Sansa asks LF basically why he’s dinking around in the Vale when he can go to Harrenhal and be a big shot in his own right. Sansa shoots down his first answer. LF cycles through answers which Sansa rejects until LF is finally able to get Sansa off the subject. He has plans for Harrenhal beyond the obvious that he’s keeping very close to the chest.

 

On 9/2/2018 at 10:00 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Given that Sansa is a female-line descendent of House Whent there might well be something on LF's mind that he doesn't want to share with her.....

Yes, the blood of house Lothston (of which Whent is almost certainly descended) is key to Harrenhal. Note that Lucas Lothston taking possession of Harrenhal closely coincides with the cessation of dragons hatching, and that Daenerys' dragons didn't hatch until after the last Whent was driven from the castle during the War of the Five Kings.

 

On 9/2/2018 at 10:33 AM, Rufus Snow said:

Yep, we have strayed a bit from the original topic, but that's what you get with such a deeply layered work of fiction....

I think any discussion of the Maesters and their mysteries will inevitably lead back to Harrenhal. If, as Marwyn alleges, the Maesters killed the dragons, and if, as it appears based on the timeline, it was Harrenhal that did the trick, then it stands to reason the Maesters were behind Harrenhal.

Now, I do think the infertility of dragons was basically a side effect. As noted, the Citadel's priority is probably the Children of the Forest, and the castle is meant to nullify their telepathic Weirnet, hence it's location so close to the central node of that network. But whatever anti-magic properties the castle has were non-specific, and wound up nullifying the magic the dragons require to hatch.

 

On 9/3/2018 at 2:15 AM, Jaak said:

The bigger problem is how ironmen accepted maesters...

Not really. House Hoare was extremely progressive. They didn't always get their way (the Ironborn didn't tolerate the septs) but for something with broad appeal like the medical expertise offered by the Maesters I imagine resistance would fade quickly. As with the rest of the continent, the promise of a longer life, with fewer dead children and dead wives, is going to be a powerful motivator. Every time a holdout Lord had to bury someone he lost to disease or childbirth he'd think about the offer of the Maesters. It's not an offer a father or husband is likely to resist for long under those circumstances.

 

22 hours ago, Jaak said:

There was NO High Septon in Andalos. There was no High Septon in Fingers, or Vale. The Andals of Andalos, Vale and Riverlands were used to a Pope in every parish, who acknowledged no higher authority on Earth.

Iron Islands repeatedly banished septons as such. But when and how did the Arryns acknowledge the Hightower chaplain as the High Septon? When did Daynes? Did Andalos, like by the time of Qarlon the Great, acknowledge the High Septon in Westeros?

All this, and the difference in the early imagery of the Andals showing nothing of the seven-pointed star, is what leads me to believe the modern Faith of the Seven was deliberately created, adapted from whatever faith the Andals brought with them but altered signifigantly.

As to how the modified faith spread, I believe the Maesters were able to use their position as teachers to spread their version of history, in which this new Faith, with its centralized authority and fractured God, wasn't new at all, but the way it had always been and is supposed to be.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Maesters teach that there's no magic, that doesn't mean they believe there's no magic. And either way, it's clear that the Citadel isn't unified on the topic of magic; there are at least two factions. The majority seems to be onboard with the magic-supression/extinction plan, while Marwyn's minority seems to want to use magic for their own purposes. That said, I have no reason to believe their end goal isn't the same: the defeat of the Children.

True, i just wanted to stress the hypocrisy of their teaching to their actions. We know they study it, and Luwin tells us at least that some really want to believe it's real. 

The question though is to what degree did they, and what kind of magic.

The Citadel specifically look down on communicating with the dead (necromancy) which is weird. How do you talk to the dead? Glass Candles? Weirwoods we know for sure. Reanimation? What they look down on should be an indication to us of past dealings 

[Damon_Tor]

3 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Why make mention of it if it's not different than the common iron born?

Venturing further into crackpot territory here: House Hoare had the strongest ancestry from the Grey King. The population of the Iron Islands was mostly "First Men" but they Grey King came from elsewhere, likely across the Sunset Sea. The World of Ice and Fire describes a dynasty of Yi Ti called "The Grey Emperors" who have the family name "Har". That could just be a coincidence, but then you add in the theory of Western origins for the Ironborn put forward in WoIaF and the testimony of the Farwynds of a land to the West and it becomes hard to ignore.

EDIT: I'm aware there's a timeline issue here: the Grey Emperors of Yi Ti occur after the fall of the GEotD, presumably after the Long Night, while the Grey King is supposedly from the Age of Heroes, which should date before it. But there are so many issues with the timeline that far back, and deliberately inserted doubt into what occurred when, that I feel comfortable ignoring the discrepancy.

Harren Hoare's darker hair could be a sign of his close relationship to that King, a person from a different ethnic group entirely. The legends of Ygg imply the Grey King led the extermination of the Weirwoods on the Iron Islands. Perhaps his bloodline is unusually resistant to the mental manipulation of the Children? Perhaps he brought with him an artifact, a throne of black stone, which augmented this resistance, spread it, to nullify the Childrens' magic over all the Iron Islands. And perhaps it was this throne on which the Citadel were able to base their designs for a much larger construct, something which could nullify magic across the entire world. Perhaps they used their influence over the houses of Westeros to strengthen this trait of House Hoare by selective breeding with other houses, both by reinforcing the Grey King's bloodline with other closely related Ironborn houses, but also by adding new genes from other lineages from the mainland. Harren was the Black Blood, the culmination of the breeding project, and Harrenhal was the Seastone Chair Mk.II.

Then Aegon I went ahead and wrecked it all up, either on his own accord or because the Children manipulated him and his family. I suspect the latter.

[AlaskanSandman]

2 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Venturing further into crackpot territory here: House Hoare had the strongest ancestry from the Grey King. The population of the Iron Islands was mostly "First Men" but they Grey King came from elsewhere, likely across the Sunset Sea. The World of Ice and Fire describes a dynasty of Yi Ti called "The Grey Emperors" who have the family name "Har". That could just be a coincidence, but then you add in the theory of Western origins for the Ironborn put forward in WoIaF and the testimony of the Farwynds of a land to the West and becomes hard to ignore.

Harren Hoare's darker hair could be a sign of his close relationship to that King, a person from a different ethnic group entirely. The legends of Ygg imply the Grey King led the extermination of the Weirwoods on the Iron Islands. Perhaps his bloodline is unusually resistant to the mental manipulation of the Children? Perhaps he brought with him an artifact, a throne of black stone, which augmented this resistance, spread it, to nullify the Childrens' magic over all the Iron Islands. And perhaps it was this throne on which the Citadel were able to base their designs for a much larger construct, something which could nullify magic across the entire world. Perhaps they used their influence over the houses of Westeros to strengthen this trait of House Hoare by selective breeding with other houses, both by reinforcing the Grey King's bloodline with other closely related Ironborn houses, but also by adding new genes from other lineages from the mainland. Harren was the Black Blood, the culmination of the breeding project, and Harrenhal was the Seastone Chair Mk.II.

Then Aegon I went ahead and wrecked it all up, either on his own accord or because the Children manipulated him and his family. I suspect the latter.

Haha well that is definitely interesting and i do like some of it haha gonna have to process it for a lil bit with everything else in my head. 

But when Aegon came, the Hoares were on a Westerosi take over. The Hoares had already taken control of Old Town at some point in history. Harren had just taken the Gods Eye and his Brother was at the Wall. Maybe at Castle Black or at the Night Fort where the Black Gate is. Which is strangely ironic. Were there Hoares just taking control? Cutting off the link between Maesters and the Wall? Remember, you can see the Wall from Old Town according to legend, why do you suppose that is? Why do you think the Citadel used to use Glass Candles for?

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, Damon_Tor said:

Venturing further into crackpot territory here: House Hoare had the strongest ancestry from the Grey King. The population of the Iron Islands was mostly "First Men" but they Grey King came from elsewhere, likely across the Sunset Sea. The World of Ice and Fire describes a dynasty of Yi Ti called "The Grey Emperors" who have the family name "Har". That could just be a coincidence, but then you add in the theory of Western origins for the Ironborn put forward in WoIaF and the testimony of the Farwynds of a land to the West and it becomes hard to ignore.

EDIT: I'm aware there's a timeline issue here: the Grey Emperors of Yi Ti occur after the fall of the GEotD, presumably after the Long Night, while the Grey King is supposedly from the Age of Heroes, which should date before it. But there are so many issues with the timeline that far back, and deliberately inserted doubt into what occurred when, that I feel comfortable ignoring the discrepancy.

Harren Hoare's darker hair could be a sign of his close relationship to that King, a person from a different ethnic group entirely. The legends of Ygg imply the Grey King led the extermination of the Weirwoods on the Iron Islands. Perhaps his bloodline is unusually resistant to the mental manipulation of the Children? Perhaps he brought with him an artifact, a throne of black stone, which augmented this resistance, spread it, to nullify the Childrens' magic over all the Iron Islands. And perhaps it was this throne on which the Citadel were able to base their designs for a much larger construct, something which could nullify magic across the entire world. Perhaps they used their influence over the houses of Westeros to strengthen this trait of House Hoare by selective breeding with other houses, both by reinforcing the Grey King's bloodline with other closely related Ironborn houses, but also by adding new genes from other lineages from the mainland. Harren was the Black Blood, the culmination of the breeding project, and Harrenhal was the Seastone Chair Mk.II.

Then Aegon I went ahead and wrecked it all up, either on his own accord or because the Children manipulated him and his family. I suspect the latter.

I talk a lil about my opinion thus far on the Grey king in my Alternate History thread and in older threads, but i do believe the Grey King is from the East. I believe Garth was too, and that the Grey King is likely his son from the Empire of the Dawn. That Garth came to Westeros based off knowledge of his people who had been trading with Westeros via Old Town. Garth came to Westeros and conquered all of it becoming first High King and having a new family in Westeros. The Children put a curse on Garth's Barrow which his son the Grey King activated by warring with his brother Durran to conquer Westeros.

This is why Brandon built the Wall with the Children, to prevent the Curse from happening again. I think they killed the Grey King but not his sister bride, who later hooked up with the Night King and was later killed. Some of their children survived though and so did the Night King. Either way though, this is why Aerys II cant activate the curse. Cause he never ruled all of westeros including the lands beyond the wall. 

This is why there is allowed no cities (Hardhome) and no kings, yet, why there is kings graves that Mance and Ygritte were digging through.

[Damon_Tor]

35 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Haha well that is definitely interesting and i do like some of it haha gonna have to process it for a lil bit with everything else in my head. 

But when Aegon came, the Hoares were on a Westerosi take over. The Hoares had already taken control of Old Town at some point in history. Harren had just taken the Gods Eye and his Brother was at the Wall. Maybe at Castle Black or at the Night Fort where the Black Gate is. Which is strangely ironic. Were there Hoares just taking control? Cutting off the link between Maesters and the Wall? Remember, you can see the Wall from Old Town according to legend, why do you suppose that is? Why do you think the Citadel used to use Glass Candles for?

Lord Commander Hoare is confusing and suspicious, but we know too little about him to do anything but speculate on what drove him to take the black and what factors were behind his rise to power in the Watch. Maybe it was part of the Maesters' anti-magic plan and maybe not. Maybe he spread his "black blood" among the wildlings, a lineage that eventually led to Craster and his inbred brood. Was that why he was there? What happens if the Others get the Grey King's magic nullification trait? Was that the plan?

Only speculation.

[AlaskanSandman]

Random but i wonder about the Grey king and his tie to the Grey Rats. The Pirate holding, weirwoods, black oily rock. Hmmmm