Heresy 213 Death aint what it used to be

[Brad Stark]

We know the Stark look is theirs from the crypts, long dead Kings with long faces. 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was thinking back on Howland's prayer at Harrenhal for "a way to win", and wondered if either he or Bloodraven saw the future deaths of all the Stark wargs, including Jon, and that the reversal of the wheel of time (which I believe occurred during the tourney) was meant for them so that they would all find a way to not die?

I think that is one of the instances of magic causing changes in fate/jumps in the multiverse. Bran's survival in Winterfell, Jamie rescuing Brienne, Arya escaping Harrenhal would be other instances.

Bioshock Infinite has a good story using multiverses, time loops and wheel of times elements. Worth playing it just for that.

 

 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree with the red hair commonality between Cat and Beric.  I think that there is something to that. ( I would also look to House Redwyne and the fact that they married a first cousin back into the main line, as possible evidence that they are harboring a magical bloodline)

Hmmm. I have barely given House Redwyne a thought, but Olenna Tyrell was a Redwyne, correct. I wonder what color her hair was in her youth and the truth about her engagement to a Targaryen prince.

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

But back to Jon, this is why I believe the mechanism of his resurrection will be different from either Beric or Cat's.  I think that there is a bloodline in both Beric and Cat, that allowed for whatever mystical flame Thoros conjured up to facilitate their resurrection.  I agree that it is doubtful that Jon possesses this bloodline.  But if you believe that red hair and king's blood might be significant to allow for a red priest to perform a resurrection, then it just so happens that both of these ingredients are at hand at the Wall.  We have the red priestess Melisandre, and we have the red haired Gerrick Kingsblood.  And in the north, apparently there is some special significance to having red hair, at least according to Ygritte.

So whatever magic may be present in Cat and Beric's bloodline could possibly pass to Jon through the sacrifice of Gerrick Kingsblood. 

I buy the red hair connection to Gerrick Kingsblood, but not sold on the actual kings blood. He claims decent through Raymun Redbeard (or his younger brother) but wildlings don't seem to follow this hereditary line of kingship, so I don't know if he really has "kingsblood" that matters. However, if we look at how Mel has sometimes misinterpreted her visions, perhaps the "power in kings blood" she is looking for has nothing to do with the blood of kings, as much as Kingsblood the last name, as in Gerrick himself! So maybe red haired Gerrick Kingsblood is important!

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for Jon's fire imagery, well we have that too.  

Quote

I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn...

We have his burned hand, which he earned in destroying the Wights with fire.

As to the watch vows, it could be argued that each brother of the Night's Watch has that "fire" and "dawn" imagery!

Yes, Jon does have some fire imagery, but not a ton. It doesn't overshadow his imagery like winter and snow and ice. Ned also has much ice and winter and cold imagery, but it's not all cold for Eddard. Ned also has some fire imagery in his story. He stares into a candle flame, thinking deeply. It is from Ned's POV that we first see Thoros' fire sword. It is partly hearing about the fire and destruction of Wendish town that Ned set's men after Gregor Clegane, many of the same men who will eventually be part of Cat's revival as Lady Stoneheart. It is Theon who thinks of Ned as being the person who brought "fire and blood" down on Pyke during the Greyjoy rebellion. That is a very odd statement to hang on Eddard, since those are the Targaryen words and it was Robert' who put down the Greyjoy rebellion.

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

My gut still tells me that Jon is Stark through and through.  Stark on both his maternal and paternal side.  But if you look at Winterfell, you get a hint that ice water is not supposed to run in their veins.

I agree there is some heat and/or fire that runs in the Stark line. Jon wants to bath in the hot pools at Winterfell and Ned longs for a hot bath when he get's to Kings Landing. As you point out, their castle called Winterfell is built like a giant radiator. Jon misses that when he comes to the wall. I speculate that the Starks might carry some Targaryen blood, possibly through Aerea Targaryen, but I have not even one dot of proof. I have also speculated that the Stark's came from dragon people far older than the Valyrian's. I think they come from dragon people from Asshai! Again, mostly speculation.

And yes, I think it's very likely that Jon will turn out to be a Stark/Stark, full of winter imagery but not afraid to use fire/heat as a weapon, if needed. We already seen this in Jon's storyline, which lead to his burned hand and the earning of Longclaw. Longclaw, that doesn't have ruby eyes like fire but garnet eyes like blood. 

The Stark blood is important, I think.

 

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

In other words, if we liken Winterfell to the Starks, we have the imagery of "hot blood" running through their veins.  My guess is that the Winter Kings were not there to bring about winter, but instead their role may have been in ending it.  

Yes to the "hot blood". Unsure about the ending winter part, but I do think they have something to do with allowing winter to come!

 

[St Daga]

7 hours ago, Tucu said:

I found this quote from Stannis that hints at a multiverse or maybe a wheel of time:

Quote

"Or you might have joined your strength to his to bring down the Lannisters," Davos protested. "Why not that? If she saw two futures, well . . . both cannot be true."

King Stannis pointed a finger. "There you err, Onion Knight. Some lights cast more than one shadow. Stand before the nightfire and you'll see for yourself. The flames shift and dance, never still. The shadows grow tall and short, and every man casts a dozen. Some are fainter than others, that's all. Well, men cast their shadows across the future as well. One shadow or many. Melisandre sees them all."

Could the nature of the shadowy creatures be as echoes of the wheel of time? It reminds me of the use of multiverse echoes as ghosts in the Bioshock Infinite game (in which the main character is himself pulled out of other universes everytime he dies).

Maybe instead of time travel elements we have a cyclic universe or cyclic multiverse. For example if we look at Lady Joanna's visit to Jamie we are not looking at a dream or a ghost but at an echo from an event from a previous cycle.

The thing about this though is that Mel only seen the future that happened. It wasn't two futures? Davos says that can't be true. She seen "Renly's doom" and she also saw "a morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing". This happened, even if it wasn't Renly is his armor. and Renly was still "doomed" by the shadowbaby! Mel saw was both events in one reality, but she presented it to Stannis as a "one or the other" type of thing. But what happened included "both" things that she saw.

I do think there probably is a Wheel of Time rolling on through the story, but I also wonder if some things are inevitable, no matter which way the wheel turns. This passage with Stannis and Renly actually leads me to think about fatalism and how "what will happen, will happen" or if it's meant to happen, it will happen. Nothing we do changes anything.

 

[St Daga]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I was thinking back on Howland's prayer at Harrenhal for "a way to win", and wondered if either he or Bloodraven saw the future deaths of all the Stark wargs, including Jon, and that the reversal of the wheel of time (which I believe occurred during the tourney) was meant for them so that they would all find a way to not die? 

Perhaps I misunderstood you in another post, but I though you said the wheel turned back wards when Dany's dragons were born!

 

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

There are only a few ways that can happen... Do yo think that is why George introduced Jaime and Cersei so early? To get us... Immune to that kind of thing? It has been noted that Jon is basically the Starkiest Stark.

I think that is why. And it certainly worked for me. I don't even blink at the incest in this story now. Nope. Not even one little twitch. It could also explain Ned's calmness when finding out about Jaime and Cersei's incest and children. Heck, Ned even touches Cersei's face gently during this scene. And Jaime will later tell us "by what right does the wolf judge the lion?" It all just fits so nicely! Nice in a creepy incest sort of way! 

 

[Tucu]

13 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The thing about this though is that Mel only seen the future that happened. It wasn't two futures? Davos says that can't be true. She seen "Renly's doom" and she also saw "a morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing". This happened, even if it wasn't Renly is his armor. and Renly was still "doomed" by the shadowbaby! Mel saw was both events in one reality, but she presented it to Stannis as a "one or the other" type of thing. But what happened included "both" things that she saw.

I do think there probably is a Wheel of Time rolling on through the story, but I also wonder if some things are inevitable, no matter which way the wheel turns. This passage with Stannis and Renly actually leads me to think about fatalism and how "what will happen, will happen" or if it's meant to happen, it will happen. Nothing we do changes anything.

 

I think that we have a world in which changing fate has a cost. Stannis payed for changing Renly's fate, not the fate of his army. In constrast Jojen knew that he could not change the fate of Winterfell, but he could change the fate of Bran and Rickon; in their case the miller's boys payed the blood price.

Mel reduces the strngth of fatalism when she mentions this:

Quote

"Are your fires never wrong?"

"Never … though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come."

She opens the door to a multiverse.

[Tucu]

9 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I think that is why. And it certainly worked for me. I don't even blink at the incest in this story now. Nope. Not even one little twitch. It could also explain Ned's calmness when finding out about Jaime and Cersei's incest and children. Heck, Ned even touches Cersei's face gently during this scene. And Jaime will later tell us "by what right does the wolf judge the lion?" It all just fits so nicely! Nice in a creepy incest sort of way! 

 

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Lannister studied his face. "Yes," he said. "I can see it. You have more of the north in you than your brothers."

Twice as much

[SirArthur]

26 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The thing about this though is that Mel only seen the future that happened. It wasn't two futures? Davos says that can't be true. She seen "Renly's doom" and she also saw "a morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing". This happened, even if it wasn't Renly is his armor. and Renly was still "doomed" by the shadowbaby! Mel saw was both events in one reality, but she presented it to Stannis as a "one or the other" type of thing. But what happened included "both" things that she saw.

I do think there probably is a Wheel of Time rolling on through the story, but I also wonder if some things are inevitable, no matter which way the wheel turns. This passage with Stannis and Renly actually leads me to think about fatalism and how "what will happen, will happen" or if it's meant to happen, it will happen. Nothing we do changes anything.

 

fixed points in time, like in a prophecy. It all comes down how the prophecy is approached. Maybe Tyrion was always destined to kill Tywin. But it is the why that changes. This is not so much a wheel of time or time travel, rather good old simple greek prophecy. 

But then again we have the american angle to it, by an author who has, I guess, read more comics than greek prophecies. So 

[SirArthur]

20 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I think that is why. And it certainly worked for me. I don't even blink at the incest in this story now. Nope. Not even one little twitch. It could also explain Ned's calmness when finding out about Jaime and Cersei's incest and children. Heck, Ned even touches Cersei's face gently during this scene. And Jaime will later tell us "by what right does the wolf judge the lion?" It all just fits so nicely! Nice in a creepy incest sort of way! 

I think Tywin knew and was part of the Jon case. And that is why he is so furios with Cersei. 

[St Daga]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

In constrast Jojen knew that he could not change the fate of Winterfell, but he could change the fate of Bran and Rickon; in their case the miller's boys payed the blood price.

What if the only think that Jojen ever saw was the Miller's boys getting their faces skinned off while wearing Stark clothing. Then he never saw Bran and Rickon as dead, just what appears to be Bran and Rickon as dead. So, nothing he did changed what was going to happen.

I see what you are saying, that it's possible that little changes are happening along the way, but I am not sure we can escape from fatalism like that.

17 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Mel reduces the strngth of fatalism when she mentions this:

Quote

"Are your fires never wrong?"

"Never … though we priests are mortal and sometimes err, mistaking this must come for this may come."

She opens the door to a multiverse.

Yes, Mel tells us that the visions are never wrong, and I believe that. What i think is wrong is her interpretation, which even she understands that she has struggled with. One thing the Ghost of High Heart does is tell us exactly what she see's. There is no attempt to explain or interpret. It's the raw vision. Perhaps she has learned to understand over the years that you can't change what you see. You can only see it. 

That is very different from what Mel does. She tells us she "sees a grey girl on a dying horse" but then tries to interpret what she see's instead of waiting for it to happen. 

20 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I think that we have a world in which changing fate has a cost. Stannis payed for changing Renly's fate, not the fate of his army.

See, I am not so sure that anything changed. We don't know what she explained to Stannis that he refer's to it as "Renly's doom". It just doesn't sound good but it might be exactly what happened. But she also tells Stannis that she saw "that if I went to Storm's End, I would win the best part of my brother's power". Did she always see "Renly's doom" at Storm's End and she needed to steer Stannis there to convince him of her power. Because Stannis tell's Davos she said the "other morrow"- "A morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing." But this still happened, this other morrow. Now, it was Garlen in Renly's armor, but what if all Mel ever saw was a man in Renly's armor beating Stannis host? Because that is exactly what happened. Now, Stannis seems to think he would die in Kings Landing against Renly's host, but why? Is that something that Mel added on? Or something she saw? Because he doesn't include it in his description.

I just think the interpretation is the problem, and the visions stay the same, regardless! 

I do think there are echo's in time, ripples that might alter slightly, but I am not sure this is on of those times. Nor is what Jojen see's about Bran and Rickon. I wonder if some of the mistakes made are because people think they can change what is going to happen. Nothing really changes because it all still comes to pass as it was meant to.

[St Daga]

19 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

fixed points in time, like in a prophecy. It all comes down how the prophecy is approached. Maybe Tyrion was always destined to kill Tywin. But it is the why that changes. This is not so much a wheel of time or time travel, rather good old simple greek prophecy. 

But then again we have the american angle to it, by an author who has, I guess, read more comics than greek prophecies. So 

You present two different "morrow's" for me to interpret. Ha! If it is like a Greek prophecy, the more you try to change your fate the more your fate is sealed. I do see aspects in this story of that. Fatalism, as it were.

But I think GRRM likes to think that we can change things, if only we act, so perhaps he is trying to tell us that we can alter our fates by the choices we make.

Honestly, I can see it going either way, and he probably is using both extremes in his story telling.

 

19 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

I think Tywin knew and was part of the Jon case. And that is why he is so furios with Cersei. 

?? That Tywin knew of Jaime and Cersei's incest? What part of the Jon case did he know about? That Tywin knows who Jon's parents are? You would think if he did, he would use that against the Stark's.

[Tucu]

22 minutes ago, St Daga said:

What if the only think that Jojen ever saw was the Miller's boys getting their faces skinned off while wearing Stark clothing. Then he never saw Bran and Rickon as dead, just what appears to be Bran and Rickon as dead. So, nothing he did changed what was going to happen.

I see what you are saying, that it's possible that little changes are happening along the way, but I am not sure we can escape from fatalism like that.

Yes, Mel tells us that the visions are never wrong, and I believe that. What i think is wrong is her interpretation, which even she understands that she has struggled with. One thing the Ghost of High Heart does is tell us exactly what she see's. There is no attempt to explain or interpret. It's the raw vision. Perhaps she has learned to understand over the years that you can't change what you see. You can only see it. 

That is very different from what Mel does. She tells us she "sees a grey girl on a dying horse" but then tries to interpret what she see's instead of waiting for it to happen. 

See, I am not so sure that anything changed. We don't know what she explained to Stannis that he refer's to it as "Renly's doom". It just doesn't sound good but it might be exactly what happened. But she also tells Stannis that she saw "that if I went to Storm's End, I would win the best part of my brother's power". Did she always see "Renly's doom" at Storm's End and she needed to steer Stannis there to convince him of her power. Because Stannis tell's Davos she said the "other morrow"- "A morrow where Renly rode out of the south in his green armor to smash my host beneath the walls of King's Landing." But this still happened, this other morrow. Now, it was Garlen in Renly's armor, but what if all Mel ever saw was a man in Renly's armor beating Stannis host? Because that is exactly what happened. Now, Stannis seems to think he would die in Kings Landing against Renly's host, but why? Is that something that Mel added on? Or something she saw? Because he doesn't include it in his description.

I just think the interpretation is the problem, and the visions stay the same, regardless! 

I do think there are echo's in time, ripples that might alter slightly, but I am not sure this is on of those times. Nor is what Jojen see's about Bran and Rickon. I wonder if some of the mistakes made are because people think they can change what is going to happen. Nothing really changes because it all still comes to pass as it was meant to.

That is why I like the multiverse interpretation. In the universe we are observing the visions are about two irrelevant miller's boys; in another instance Bran and Rickon were skinned.

I also think that by the end of the series we will have visions that never come true as they belong to universes that diverged too much. Dany's vision about Rhaego is one of those.

Quote

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him

 

[St Daga]

24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

That is why I like the multiverse interpretation. In the universe we are observing the visions are about two irrelevant miller's boys; in another instance Bran and Rickon were skinned.

This is very possible. I don't suppose we will ever get some answers on some of these things, and some things we might never get conclusions about.

26 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I also think that by the end of the series we will have visions that never come true as they belong to universes that diverged too much. Dany's vision about Rhaego is one of those.

Quote

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him

 

Ah yes, Rhaego! Or this seems like Rhaego. It fits the idea of the Dothraki and their copper skin and horses and Dany and her silver-gold hair and fire. But it's hard to believe in the past there has never been a Valyrian/Dothraki child before!

I am reminded about this and the visions that Dany will see:

Quote

"By no means," Pyat Pree said. "Leaving and coming, it is the same. Always up. Always the door to your right. Other doors may open to you. Within, you will see many things that disturb you. Visions of loveliness and visions of horror, wonders and terrors. Sights and sounds of days gone by and days to come and days that never were. Dwellers and servitors may speak to you as you go. Answer or ignore them as you choose, but enter no room until you reach the audience chamber." ACOK-Daenerys IV

"Days that never were" is a bit different than will be!  So, maybe Rhaego was a "days that never were".  Of course, I am reminded that some theorize that Rhaego survived and was taken from Dany. Perhaps we will see this scene yet in our story as a "days to come", or perhaps this happened 1000 years ago and it's a "days gone by". GRRM gives us several possibilities.

"Days that never were" actually fit's the wheel of time imagery in my head, since it's already predicting a future that never happened.

[SirArthur]

57 minutes ago, St Daga said:

You present two different "morrow's" for me to interpret. Ha! If it is like a Greek prophecy, the more you try to change your fate the more your fate is sealed. I do see aspects in this story of that. Fatalism, as it were.

Either that or it has a surprise turn (like Maggy's prophecy where the Val. shall "wrap his hands about" (I am not sure if "wrap about" is even propper english, it is not around, it is about ) or nobody pays attention (like Cassandra of Troy). In any case, drama is involved. 

Stannis and Cersei both have that drama element. I am not sure about Jojen yet, he has to fail in a dramatic way, if greek prophecies are at play.

[Tucu]

35 minutes ago, St Daga said:

This is very possible. I don't suppose we will ever get some answers on some of these things, and some things we might never get conclusions about.

Ah yes, Rhaego! Or this seems like Rhaego. It fits the idea of the Dothraki and their copper skin and horses and Dany and her silver-gold hair and fire. But it's hard to believe in the past there has never been a Valyrian/Dothraki child before!

The Dothraki arrived to the western part of Essos after the Doom, so there is a good chance of Rhaego being the first Dragonlord/Khal heir (implied by the banner of a fiery stallion)

35 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I am reminded about this and the visions that Dany will see:

"Days that never were" is a bit different than will be!  So, maybe Rhaego was a "days that never were".  Of course, I am reminded that some theorize that Rhaego survived and was taken from Dany. Perhaps we will see this scene yet in our story as a "days to come", or perhaps this happened 1000 years ago and it's a "days gone by". GRRM gives us several possibilities.

"Days that never were" actually fit's the wheel of time imagery in my head, since it's already predicting a future that never happened.

I have not noticed that hint in Pyat Pree quote. I am increasing my bet on the multiverse/wheel of time :-)

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

The Stark blood is important, I think.

It must be important since it is stressed that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. 

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

Perhaps I misunderstood you in another post, but I though you said the wheel turned back wards when Dany's dragons were born!

The wheel of time was reset at the Harrenhal tourney, and it began rolling in reverse. When the dragons hatched it "broke" and turned inside out - effectively applying history to opposite directions. In other words east became west and the north was turned upside down (and is under water). The historical events that had happened to the Lannisters are now happening to the Martells, and the Greyjoys are following the same historical events as Blackfyres and Targaryens. Historical events have been occurring in reverse order since Harrenhal, but since they're happening to different areas on the map the outcomes have changed. 

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

I think that is why. And it certainly worked for me. I don't even blink at the incest in this story now. Nope. Not even one little twitch. It could also explain Ned's calmness when finding out about Jaime and Cersei's incest and children. Heck, Ned even touches Cersei's face gently during this scene. And Jaime will later tell us "by what right does the wolf judge the lion?" It all just fits so nicely! Nice in a creepy incest sort of way! 

So Jon's parents... Brandon and Lyanna? It would make the most sense to me. Though maybe Benjen. He went to the Wall for something. 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

"Days that never were" is a bit different than will be!  So, maybe Rhaego was a "days that never were".  Of course, I am reminded that some theorize that Rhaego survived and was taken from Dany. Perhaps we will see this scene yet in our story as a "days to come", or perhaps this happened 1000 years ago and it's a "days gone by". GRRM gives us several possibilities.

What? How did they take Rhaego? Who took him? Where is he? So many questions. 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

So Jon's parents... Brandon and Lyanna? It would make the most sense to me. Though maybe Benjen. He went to the Wall for something. 

My preferred version is Ned and Lyanna, although I see some hints around all three Stark brothers. If the story mirror's Jaime and Cersei, it's sibling incest that is the key to the Stark story. However we are also given Craster's story for a reason, so depending on the timeline, I don't count Rickard/Lyanna out, either.

2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

What? How did they take Rhaego? Who took him? Where is he? So many questions. 

This is not one of my favorite theories, but it does have some potential. 

Dany is passed out and remembers nothing. This all happened in a village of the Lamb people of MMD, so it's hard to say what kind of accomplices she might have had. I don't trust the Dothraki, either. Some of them could be far more loyal to the Dosh Khaleen than they are to Drogo. Even Jorah act's very odd and says "the women said" in regards to Rhaego's birth. Who were "the women"? MMD and Dany's handmaids, or was there someone else in that tent. But Dany knows her child was alive and strong and fighting to be born when she went into the tent, but what is born to her, according to MMD, was scaled and winged with the flesh sloughing off and had been dead "for years". But Dany never see's this child and we never hear of a grave, as far as I remember.

Could MMD have glamoured the child to appear this way and had it taken away, snuck away from Dany. After all, MMD tells us her people have a prophecy about the "stallion who mounts the world" too, just like the Dothraki do. Is it the same prophecy, with different interpretations, or is it a very different prophecy all together?

I am not sure our story will long enough for a payoff though, if Rhaego lives. But I think it could mirror another child  and another mother and another birth, perhaps a child that was taken from a mother and declared dead. Perhaps that child is Dany or Jon?

[St Daga]

Speaking of "death ain't what it used to be", when discussion resurrection, I don't know if we have brought up Drogo yet.

Quote

Dany kissed her sun-and-stars gently on the brow, and stood to face Mirri Maz Duur. "Your spells are costly, maegi."

"He lives," said Mirri Maz Duur. "You asked for life. You paid for life."

 

"This is not life, for one who was as Drogo was. His life was laughter, and meat roasting over a firepit, and a horse between his legs. His life was an arakh in his hand and his bells ringing in his hair as he rode to meet an enemy. His life was his bloodriders, and me, and the son I was to give him."

Mirri Maz Duur made no reply.

"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.

 

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."  AGOT-Daenerys IX

MMD and Dany speak of life. But they certainly have different idea's on what "life" means. This is a lesson for Dany, and one for us I suppose. First of all, death is a tricky bitch, and so is life. Dany perhaps should have asked for Drogo to be "as he was" before, but she asked for life instead.

And the true lesson might be that if you want life from death, you must understand that you will not get the same person back from death that you had before.

Maybe there is no correct answer. But perhaps this is a hint to us for future resurrections.

MMD also ends this with another prophecy for Dany. Could it have come true for Drogo if Dany had not chosen to snuff out Drogo's life, or was he always going to be what he was, blind and breathing, laying on the ground with bloodflies hovering over him. Was there a chance for him to become more than this, if Dany would have waited? Was there never a chance at all?

This also reminds me of Bran in Bloodraven's cave, when he is trying to speak to Ned through the weirnet.

 

Quote

Then all at once he was back home again.

Lord Eddard Stark sat upon a rock beside the deep black pool in the godswood, the pale roots of the heart tree twisting around him like an old man's gnarled arms. The greatsword Ice lay across Lord Eddard's lap, and he was cleaning the blade with an oilcloth.

 

"Winterfell," Bran whispered.

 

His father looked up. "Who's there?" he asked, turning …

 

… and Bran, frightened, pulled away. His father and the black pool and the godswood faded and were gone and he was back in the cavern, the pale thick roots of his weirwood throne cradling his limbs as a mother does a child. A torch flared to life before him.

 

"Tell us what you saw." From far away Leaf looked almost a girl, no older than Bran or one of his sisters, but close at hand she seemed far older. She claimed to have seen two hundred years.

 

Bran's throat was very dry. He swallowed. "Winterfell. I was back in Winterfell. I saw my father. He's not dead, he's not, I saw him, he's back at Winterfell, he's still alive."

 

"No," said Leaf. "He is gone, boy. Do not seek to call him back from death." ADWD-Bran III

 

 

This is fresh in my mind because I was looking into hints about locations of Bloodraven's cave earlier recently, but some of this wording stood out to me. Here we have Ned with the pale roots of the tree twisting about him, like an old man's gnarled arms. We also are told that Bloodraven and many of the singers in the caves are seated/cradled in weirwood chairs or thrones. That sounds a bit like the imagery around Ned.

 

And then when Bran makes contact with Ned, Bran is frightened. Why is he frightened? What is scary about Ned? But Leaf is very interested in what Bran saw and when he tells her, she doesn't say, "don't try to change the past" or "don't try to contact people in the tree's". Nope! She says "do not seek to call him back from death"! What? Can Bran call Ned back from death through the trees?

 

And if he could, what would Eddard 2.0 be like? Harder, colder, more vengeful?

 

I know we all interpret the text differently, but there are a few other hints about a possible resurrection for Eddard in the text. Arya asks if Thoros could bring back a man who had no head? Catelyn staring down at Ned's lifeless bones, thinking about his eye color, both hard and soft, depending on his mood. We have all the mystery about Ned's bones and where they are and what some people might do to them if they find those bones! I am looking at you, Barbrey! Why does Barbrey really want those bones. I don't believe it's to feed them to her dogs at all. She has Barrow Queen imagery all over her. As far as we know, those bones don't get back to Winterfell, and therefore can't lie in a crypt or be covered by an iron sword. Does that mean those bones could rise? Jon also dreams of Eddard as a wight. There are a few more passages I see as hints, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

 

In Egyption myth, Osiris is killed and cut into parts. When his wife finally gathers all of his remains and piece him back together, he is missing his manhood, and she make him a new one and brought him back to life for a time and conceived a child with him. This child was Horus. Ned is mirrored in this by his bones being sewed back together but he is missing Ice, which is introduced to us as a phallic symbol in Cat's first POV. Stoneheart now has part of Ned's sword, what if she finds his remains? There is all sorts of odd imagery in Ned and Cat's stories about having another child. Rereading this Osiris myth, reminds me of those hints.

 

At one point, Jon dreams of a wight with is father's face, who he has to burn, and his face and eyes melt like jelly. The act of having to do this is horrifying to Jon. But what if Jon will need to kill a wighted Ned Stark? 

 

Sorry about my decent into tinfoil again ...