GRRM Already Told Us the Tower of Joy Backstory: Wrong Joy, No Hiding, and Fight Elsewhere.

[Moiraine Sedai]

I don't have my books at work.  Dareon's value is his entertainment.  He could win new recruits to the Watch.  Jeor Mormont likely came to the same conclusion years ago and sent the most charming man to Harrenhal.  That's Mance Rayder, who would have been in his early twenties at the time.

[Seams]

On 9/23/2018 at 10:44 PM, Lady Barbrey said:

What I find hardest to dismiss is that pretty much every bit of symbolism seems to indicate a solar cycle, a Day Night, Winter Summer sequence, and of course we know the main problem with Westeros is its day/Night cycle which builds into unbalanced seasons.  So someone to fix it should be an amalgamation of day and night, a morning or twilight figure, and that just keeps screaming Dayne Stark at me.  A Dayne Stark union to produce another Sword of the Morning figure like presumably The Last Hero. But into that symbolism intrudes Rhaegar Targaryan and he doesn't really fit; It's like he's substituting for a Dayne.  He has the fire symbolism, literally, I'll grant you, to match the ice of the Starks, but it is not of the same nature as theirs.  They're part of a solar life cycle, night, death, Ice,etc., with the Daynes balancing with day, life, fire (sun) imagery.  Whereas the Targs don't have that at all, just dragons.

The only way I accept Rhaegar is to speculate the Valyrians and Daynes once shared a common ancestor, something I think you also agree with on other posts.

But honestly they just seem kind of alien to Westeros.  Their substance seems different.

And a discussion of roses:

On 9/24/2018 at 4:43 AM, AlaskanSandman said:

And no the text doest require it but aside from a passing remark by Cersei about the Blue Bard likely washing his hair with blue roses can be passed off as a glib considering he has blue everything. No other mentions of blue roses, outside of having to do with the North like Dany seeing a blue rose in the wall. Do a search in Asearchoficeandfire.com. It's a rare nothern rose that only appears to grow in the glass gardens of winterfell. 

So as for where Rhaegar got them, after your search, where would you say he got them from?

To me, all of this points to Brienne.

Day and night come together at evening. Brienne's father is called the Evenstar - not the same thing as evening, perhaps, but might be even a better fit for the symbolism. "Even" could imply that day and night are in balance.

Brienne is associated with blue when she wins the melee at Bitterbridge and joins Renlys Rainbow Guard. At that mock battle, her horse is described as wearing blue bardings. Later, we meet the Blue Bard, strongly associated with Lady Margaery. I wondered whether the Blue Bard might even be a woman in disguise, based on some details in the descriptions, although it seems as if Qyburn would have noticed that when he cut off the Bard's nipple. I have hear others speculate that the Blue Bard is even Willas Tyrell in disguise. It may not matter who the Bard is literally - the blue died hair may be a symbolic reference to a hidden Targ or other hidden figure because we know that Young Griff and Jon Connington and Daario all dye their hair blue. (Note: Daario also picks wildflowers and gives them to Dany so she can learn about the land and its native plants.)

I think the roses have to be looked at in a larger context. I'm not at all well-versed in the War of the Roses, so I will stick to the books.

Brienne hates roses because her betrothed, Red Ronnet Connington, gave her a rose when he broke up with her, impressing upon her how unattractive she was. The Tyrells are associated with gold roses on a field of green and Renly adopts green as his color, presumably because of his Tyrell alliance. Brienne loves Renly but not roses. The Starks are associated with blue roses.

Ser Loras gives white roses to the girls at the Hand's Tourney before giving Sansa a red rose. Is there any association with the white roses? Soon after that, Sansa "flowers" and wants to hide the evidence by cutting and burning her bed sheet.

Speaking of Sansa and roses, I think it is notable that Littlefinger helps her to restore all of Winterfell by building the snow castle with her but he stops at the glass house and says it is not possible to reconstruct the glass windows. To me, it seems obvious that the two of them would look for some sheet ice on top of a frozen puddle to make the glass. Does Littlefinger's remark mean that roses cannot exist without glass? Without ice? Is the absences of glass a commentary on both lemons and roses? He does devise twigs as a frame for holding the glass in the snow castle. Why no glass?

We also have the fascinating and complex prologue of AFfC where the novice Pate is willing to trade the deepest secret of the citadel for his idealized love of Rosie, the future sex worker in a nearby brothel. He pictures himself traveling through Westeros as a healer with Rosie at his side. A gold dragon is necessary to attain that particular rose.

And then there is the wordplay around thorn and north and Thorne and Dorne and throne. Is the iron throne a sort of rose thorn? Does "Stick 'em with the pointy end" apply only to swords, or also to roses?

Do the three forks of the Trident help us to sort out the red, green and blue symbolism that comes together with roses? Rubies, emeralds and sapphires?

If Lyanna and Brienne are the closest associations with blue roses, I would say that there is a possible pattern of women warriors in that symbol, not of romantic love.

[Moiraine Sedai]

I'm at work and can't get to my books atm.  I'm very interested now on some people who attended the tournament.  Talking about Mance being there got me interested on who else was there.  Okay so tell if the people below were there.  I am aware it's an opinion.  We have to start somewhere
 

Mance, Viserys, Petyr B., Jorah, Barbrey Dustin, Illyrio Mopatis, Doran, Domeric B.,  and Varys.

Insulting his wife and her family is shitty.  Is it possible it wasn't Rhaegar?  A strong glamour perhaps.

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I'm at work and can't get to my books atm.  I'm very interested now on some people who attended the tournament.  Talking about Mance being there got me interested on who else was there.  Okay so tell if the people below were there.  I am aware it's an opinion.  We have to start somewhere
 

Mance, Viserys, Petyr B., Jorah, Barbrey Dustin, Illyrio Mopatis, Doran, Domeric B.,  and Varys.

Insulting his wife and her family is shitty.  Is it possible it wasn't Rhaegar?  A strong glamour perhaps.

 

 

Those people were likely there. It's mentioned there was a Black Brother and House Mormont came along with house Dustin. Varys would be there with Aerys likely. 

And yes, that is possible, but it isn't likely Mance unless he's lying to Jon, again. He acts like Mel glamouring him is his first. Unless it was Arthur or something. With the red rubies, many have wondered about him being glamoured, but there's just not alot of evidence for or against. It is possible though and that they crowned who they wanted or something. Questions worth asking though. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tourney_at_Harrenhal

you can find most known people listed here. The K.G. Ashara dances with is up in the air, but her brother makes sense.

 

Edit- Mance and the Mormont is who im curious about given my growing suspicion of Alysanne. That mormont would likely be Jorah as Jeor should be at the wall. So Jeor would send Mance, who would likely know who Jorah is. 

Now currently, Mance' good friend Tormund is taking up knocking up Mormont women who seem happy about it based on Alysane's story to Osha.

The Bear and the Maiden fair may have been Alysanne Targaryen and a Mormont.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I don't have my books at work.  Dareon's value is his entertainment.  He could win new recruits to the Watch.  Jeor Mormont likely came to the same conclusion years ago and sent the most charming man to Harrenhal.  That's Mance Rayder, who would have been in his early twenties at the time.

I honestly forgot about Dareon other than Arya killing him hahah, great catch! Ive been following so many different clues, its a little over whelming at times by your self to catch it all. It is amazing how much Mance fits into things though once you actually start looking into him.

Laughing tree i think is the tree from WhiteTree. Screaming and laughing can look the same in a freeze frame. And what kind of laugh? A joyous one? an evil laugh? 

Rhaegar or not, it's getting harder and harder to ignore Mance and what his part is. 

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

On 9/17/2018 at 11:10 AM, Sly Wren said:

This would actually fit with the potential parallels between Lysa and Ashara. . . 

I've made this argument myself--and thus think it has promise.

The big problem I ran into with my own argument? Rhaegar is willing to kill his father clear back at Duskendale. He's plotting against Aerys, not just meekly taking orders. . . can't see him doing this just for his father. Would have to be looking for a way to disrupt his devil daddy.

Maybe--but Rhaegar was plotting to depose and probably kill his dad. . . not trying to protect that part of his family at all.

I'm liking the "3 Baels" you note. But I think Rhaegar would be unlikely to plot with his father. With Tywin? Yes. But Aerys? Struggling to see that.

Rhaegar had disagreements with his father but killing his father is way beyond that.  Killing your king is a blight that people would never accept.  He would never put his yellow rump on the throne if he killed his father.   Too many people supported Aerys and they would not abide letting Rhaegar rule over them if he killed his own father.  I can't blame them.  Rhaegar has no justifiable cause to usurp his father.  The realm was stable.  A revolution is called for when the economy is bad.  That was not the case here.

[AlaskanSandman]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

And a discussion of roses:

To me, all of this points to Brienne.

Day and night come together at evening. Brienne's father is called the Evenstar - not the same thing as evening, perhaps, but might be even a better fit for the symbolism. "Even" could imply that day and night are in balance.

Brienne is associated with blue when she wins the melee at Bitterbridge and joins Renlys Rainbow Guard. At that mock battle, her horse is described as wearing blue bardings. Later, we meet the Blue Bard, strongly associated with Lady Margaery. I wondered whether the Blue Bard might even be a woman in disguise, based on some details in the descriptions, although it seems as if Qyburn would have noticed that when he cut off the Bard's nipple. I have hear others speculate that the Blue Bard is even Willas Tyrell in disguise. It may not matter who the Bard is literally - the blue died hair may be a symbolic reference to a hidden Targ or other hidden figure because we know that Young Griff and Jon Connington and Daario all dye their hair blue. (Note: Daario also picks wildflowers and gives them to Dany so she can learn about the land and its native plants.)

I think the roses have to be looked at in a larger context. I'm not at all well-versed in the War of the Roses, so I will stick to the books.

Brienne hates roses because her betrothed, Red Ronnet Connington, gave her a rose when he broke up with her, impressing upon her how unattractive she was. The Tyrells are associated with gold roses on a field of green and Renly adopts green as his color, presumably because of his Tyrell alliance. Brienne loves Renly but not roses. The Starks are associated with blue roses.

Ser Loras gives white roses to the girls at the Hand's Tourney before giving Sansa a red rose. Is there any association with the white roses? Soon after that, Sansa "flowers" and wants to hide the evidence by cutting and burning her bed sheet.

Speaking of Sansa and roses, I think it is notable that Littlefinger helps her to restore all of Winterfell by building the snow castle with her but he stops at the glass house and says it is not possible to reconstruct the glass windows. To me, it seems obvious that the two of them would look for some sheet ice on top of a frozen puddle to make the glass. Does Littlefinger's remark mean that roses cannot exist without glass? Without ice? Is the absences of glass a commentary on both lemons and roses? He does devise twigs as a frame for holding the glass in the snow castle. Why no glass?

We also have the fascinating and complex prologue of AFfC where the novice Pate is willing to trade the deepest secret of the citadel for his idealized love of Rosie, the future sex worker in a nearby brothel. He pictures himself traveling through Westeros as a healer with Rosie at his side. A gold dragon is necessary to attain that particular rose.

And then there is the wordplay around thorn and north and Thorne and Dorne and throne. Is the iron throne a sort of rose thorn? Does "Stick 'em with the pointy end" apply only to swords, or also to roses?

Do the three forks of the Trident help us to sort out the red, green and blue symbolism that comes together with roses? Rubies, emeralds and sapphires?

If Lyanna and Brienne are the closest associations with blue roses, I would say that there is a possible pattern of women warriors in that symbol, not of romantic love.

Well i know the War of the Roses and the preceding 100 years war, but i dont think it's important to know or parallels GRRM too much.

There is definitely alot of rose metaphors like Sansa budding, the wall as a rose, etc. Not much though for direct blue rose or winter rose references. 

 

Your feelings on Brienne are worth looking into as lands that may not have always been an island and actually attached to the main land. Durran God's Grief legend is from their of stealing a bride and daughter of the gods, and we have Dunk tying to her. So there is definitely an eye watching Brienne. 

But i dont worry about looking at current stuff too much before i work the past out more, and i havnt gotten to Brienne and Dunk yet. I dont honestly know how they're even related yet and what it could mean. Where did Dunk come from? Things like that 

Though i have building suspicions regarding Dunks actions at Summerhal, that may or may not also play into Brienne and how she may or may not feel about Dany.

Tarth may also be one of my Island families possibly apart of the Valyrian Conspiracy im building up. Along with Mormonts, Hightowers, and Manderly's. Fm were Valyrian's till the Andals came and changed all that, but not all, with some families holding to their old ties. Imo.

[H Wadsworth Longfellow]

The tournament was a sham.  Rhaegar fixed it.  I can buy that.  A skilled jouster disguised as Rhaegar?  Why not.  It's not like you need an illusion.  Maybe the point of the knight of the laughing tree is the effectiveness of disguise.  The knight could even be a woman.  Who can tell with all of that armor?  It's not out of the realm of possibility for a skilled jouster to put on Rhaegar's armor and fooled everyone into thinking he's Rhaegar.  

[AlaskanSandman]

3 minutes ago, Enuma Elish said:

The tournament was a sham.  Rhaegar fixed it.  I can buy that.  A skilled jouster disguised as Rhaegar?  Why not.  It's not like you need an illusion.  Maybe the point of the knight of the laughing tree is the effectiveness of disguise.  The knight could even be a woman.  Who can tell with all of that armor?  It's not out of the realm of possibility for a skilled jouster to put on Rhaegar's armor and fooled everyone into thinking he's Rhaegar.  

Well if we remove the mystery of who the mystery knight was and look at the story as a hint to something else, that may be the point it was trying to get across. 

[Lady Barbrey]

11 hours ago, Seams said:

And a discussion of roses:

To me, all of this points to Brienne.

Day and night come together at evening. Brienne's father is called the Evenstar - not the same thing as evening, perhaps, but might be even a better fit for the symbolism. "Even" could imply that day and night are in balance.

Brienne is associated with blue when she wins the melee at Bitterbridge and joins Renlys Rainbow Guard. At that mock battle, her horse is described as wearing blue bardings. Later, we meet the Blue Bard, strongly associated with Lady Margaery. I wondered whether the Blue Bard might even be a woman in disguise, based on some details in the descriptions, although it seems as if Qyburn would have noticed that when he cut off the Bard's nipple. I have hear others speculate that the Blue Bard is even Willas Tyrell in disguise. It may not matter who the Bard is literally - the blue died hair may be a symbolic reference to a hidden Targ or other hidden figure because we know that Young Griff and Jon Connington and Daario all dye their hair blue. (Note: Daario also picks wildflowers and gives them to Dany so she can learn about the land and its native plants.)

I think the roses have to be looked at in a larger context. I'm not at all well-versed in the War of the Roses, so I will stick to the books.

Brienne hates roses because her betrothed, Red Ronnet Connington, gave her a rose when he broke up with her, impressing upon her how unattractive she was. The Tyrells are associated with gold roses on a field of green and Renly adopts green as his color, presumably because of his Tyrell alliance. Brienne loves Renly but not roses. The Starks are associated with blue roses.

Ser Loras gives white roses to the girls at the Hand's Tourney before giving Sansa a red rose. Is there any association with the white roses? Soon after that, Sansa "flowers" and wants to hide the evidence by cutting and burning her bed sheet.

Speaking of Sansa and roses, I think it is notable that Littlefinger helps her to restore all of Winterfell by building the snow castle with her but he stops at the glass house and says it is not possible to reconstruct the glass windows. To me, it seems obvious that the two of them would look for some sheet ice on top of a frozen puddle to make the glass. Does Littlefinger's remark mean that roses cannot exist without glass? Without ice? Is the absences of glass a commentary on both lemons and roses? He does devise twigs as a frame for holding the glass in the snow castle. Why no glass?

We also have the fascinating and complex prologue of AFfC where the novice Pate is willing to trade the deepest secret of the citadel for his idealized love of Rosie, the future sex worker in a nearby brothel. He pictures himself traveling through Westeros as a healer with Rosie at his side. A gold dragon is necessary to attain that particular rose.

And then there is the wordplay around thorn and north and Thorne and Dorne and throne. Is the iron throne a sort of rose thorn? Does "Stick 'em with the pointy end" apply only to swords, or also to roses?

Do the three forks of the Trident help us to sort out the red, green and blue symbolism that comes together with roses? Rubies, emeralds and sapphires?

If Lyanna and Brienne are the closest associations with blue roses, I would say that there is a possible pattern of women warriors in that symbol, not of romantic love.

It's funny you mentioned Brienne because I was just thinking about her too.  But my thought took a morbid turn, because if we're about to enter a Long Night (finally) then anyone representing the twilight or evening might be killed off to herald it.

One thing I worry about with Martin's symbols is that he uses both mundane ones and special ones.  When you've got a wealth of either kind, you can make something of it.  Roses are, like orchids, symbols of the female sex, literally, among other things. So white roses, particularly white rose buds, are symbolic of the young girl or maiden. Red roses are passion and romance, and likely in Sansa's case, foreshadowing her becoming a woman but not much else.  If white roses and red roses kept showing up in key scenes, I'd attach more importance to them.  The blue rose, however, has a symbolism Martin himself made up - a stolen maidenhood  and Winter maiden- so it is definitely significant, and I don't think it refers to Brienne cause hers is intact.

Regarding the missing windows, I agree it feels like there should be something symbolic there - do you have any guesses? Same for the trident colours. Nada for me.

[Lady Barbrey]

12 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

I'm at work and can't get to my books atm.  I'm very interested now on some people who attended the tournament.  Talking about Mance being there got me interested on who else was there.  Okay so tell if the people below were there.  I am aware it's an opinion.  We have to start somewhere
 

Mance, Viserys, Petyr B., Jorah, Barbrey Dustin, Illyrio Mopatis, Doran, Domeric B.,  and Varys.

Insulting his wife and her family is shitty.  Is it possible it wasn't Rhaegar?  A strong glamour perhaps.

 

 

I have a suspicion Varys was there, working to destabilize the realm as usual, though fAegon may or may not have been born yet.  I am always reminded of him talking to Illyrio about destabilizing Westeros in present day, and Illyrio complimenting Varys that he's a magician and accomplished it once before.  The 'once before', if it was of any magnitude, must mean the events leading to Robert's Rebellion.  And they really start or are incited at the Tourney.

In my scenario I wrote about above, for instance, I wondered how would Rhaegar know Ashara's honour had been compromised?  Varys has his spies, everywhere, so a word in the right ear.. ? And in the same scenario, Brandon goes to Aerys and KL, when if he'd received Rhaegar's message, he should have known to go to Dorne, where the Ashara marriage was waiting for him.  So who mismanaged or outright lied to Brandon about the message?  In either case, accidents could be involved, but if you take the line we know that someone is manipulating events not just for Aerys or Rhaegar's downfall, but the whole Targ line, the opportunistic, whispering Varys has got to be a main suspect.

Doesn't the False Spring have the same ring as False Dragon or Mummer's dragon? Harrenhal the set, everything else a performance manipulated by a puppet master?

The one thing I know for sure Varys would not want would be Rhaegar deposing Aerys and setting up a Regency.  There goes his job and influence, probably, but also restored stability would be the result.  So if that was what was up at Harrenhal, Varys needed to nix it but good.  And he succeeded.  So anywhere you see a gap, where maximum damage with minimal input was needed, you might find Varys, is my opinion.

[Lady Barbrey]

9 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Well if we remove the mystery of who the mystery knight was and look at the story as a hint to something else, that may be the point it was trying to get across. 

You may be absolutely right.  Aerys himself names Jaime Lannister, explicitly in the World Book, and there's lots of evidence and even a mirrored situation to support Jaime, but I've never seen any serious or valid argument discounting Jaime. Everyone fixated on Lyanna so just mentioning possible alternatives is grounds for trolling.  You could see the Mystery Knight as a stand in for the PtwP or AA, multiple candidates and inside the helm is just an empty space.  How do you interpret it without a candidate?

[AlaskanSandman]

26 minutes ago, Lady Barbrey said:

You may be absolutely right.  Aerys himself names Jaime Lannister, explicitly in the World Book, and there's lots of evidence and even a mirrored situation to support Jaime, but I've never seen any serious or valid argument discounting Jaime. Everyone fixated on Lyanna so just mentioning possible alternatives is grounds for trolling.  You could see the Mystery Knight as a stand in for the PtwP or AA, multiple candidates and inside the helm is just an empty space.  How do you interpret it without a candidate?

Well i meant more to not knowing Rhaegar was actually behind his armor. It never say's he removes his helmet when presenting the rose to Lyanna. I looked. 

Melisandre also tells us having some ones possessions make it easier to glamour as them, as the objects remember.

Melisandre uses a red ruby at her throat and on Mance's wrist and Rhaegar was wearing red rubies. 

Just saying it's possible

And as far as the Knight, yea, just questioning out side of Lyanna seems sacrilegious on here haha 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The loud, booming voice rule out Lyanna.  The short stature rule out Rhaegar, Barristan, Mance, and Jaime.  Unless we assume illusion was being used.  Ser Shadrech in his youth?  Maybe he was paid to do it. 

[AlaskanSandman]

5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The loud, booming voice rule out Lyanna.  The short stature rule out Rhaegar, Barristan, Mance, and Jaime.  Unless we assume illusion was being used.  Ser Shadrech in his youth?  Maybe he was paid to do it. 

I dont recall it saying he was short, just that the armor was ill fitting. If it's too small, it's ill fitting too. 

[Seams]

I love it when this happens.

I had brought up the glass house at Winterfell in connection with the discussion of roses, because we know that the blue winter roses grew in the glass house at Winterfell (although they may have grown in other places as well). The glass house was also a source for lemons at Winterfell, I believe, and I mused about why Baelish specifically tells Sansa that they can't replicate the glass in the glass house when building the snow castle. One of the implications is that roses and lemons cannot exist at Winterfell without glass.

You replied:

6 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said:

Regarding the missing windows, I agree it feels like there should be something symbolic there - do you have any guesses? Same for the trident colours. Nada for me.

For some reason, I always thought of glass when analyzing the glass house, but never windows. Just reading your question helped a light bulb to go on in my mind. Thinking of the glass panels in terms of windows, a few complicated symbols might come together to explain why this glass house discussion is unique to Petyr Baelish and Sansa. (And, coincidentally, strengthen the case for a tinfoil theory I am currently nurturing with the hope of eventual vindication in the last books.)

I understand that not everyone wants to read the Dunk & Egg stories but I started a re-read earlier this year and found that the stories are super helpful in sorting out some of the complex symbolism in the regular ASOIAF series. In a nutshell, the first story, The Hedge Knight, foreshadows the succession for the Iron Throne. I suspect that all of the Dunk & Egg stories are allegories foreshadowing the growth and development of Targaryen kings and the machinations of the people surrounding them.

In The Hedge Knight, there is a character named Ser Humfrey Hardyng who plays a key role but is more important for symbolism than for plot reasons. His sigil is a field of red and white diamonds. In trying to figure out the meaning of his sigil, I found the following chain of symbols is consistent across references to diamonds:

dragon teeth (and, possibly, obsidian known as dragon glass) --> black diamonds --> diamonds --> window panes

Much of the analysis is here, although I left out the window pane reference, which can be seen in a number of passages. Some examples:

Cool green light filtered down through the diamond-shaped panes of colored glass set in the sloping triangular walls...

(ASoS, Dany III)

The light streaming through the diamond-shaped panes of glass made the blade shimmer black and red as Lord Tywin turned it to inspect the edge, while the pommel and crossguard flamed gold.

(ASoS, Tyrion IV)

The small diamond-shaped panes of the window were obscured by frost.

(AFfC, Alayne II)

When Jon folded back the window with its thick diamond-shaped panes of yellow glass, the chill of the morning hit him in the face.

(ADwD, Jon I)

I know this post is already pretty tangential to the OP but I can't help noting that window panes may also tie into a butterfly motif I worked out in that Dunk & Egg analysis linked above. This comes in a passage where Arya, as the Ugly Little Girl, walks past various religious buildings in Braavos:

The statue outside the shrine of the Weeping Lady of Lys was crying silver tears as the ugly girl walked by. In the Gardens of Gelenei stood a gilded tree a hundred feet high with leaves of hammered silver. Torchlight glimmered behind windows of leaded glass in the Lord of Harmony's wooden hall, showing half a hundred kinds of butterflies in all their bright colors.

(ADwD, The Ugly Little Girl, Chap. 64)

Long story short: diamonds and diamond-shaped window panes may allude to dragons and almost certainly allude to precious stones - diamonds, emeralds, rubies. Look at all the color references included in each reference to the diamond-shaped panes. I suspect that the diamond panes draw on the history of the gemstone emperors, where each generation in the dynasty was named after a different gem. So rebuilding the glass garden would require new diamond-shaped panes -- perhaps the glass garden is a symbol of becoming an emperor or some other kind of monarch. For me, this is a great fit with that tinfoil I linked to (above) because I think that Littlefinger is grooming Sansa to be the reigning monarch of Westeros (with himself as the Hand of the Queen).

Want more proof? With whom has the Lord Protector arranged a betrothal for Alayne? Harrold Hardyng, heir of the red and white diamond sigil.

I admit, I may be stretching the meaning of diamond-shaped panes because I want it to fit with the Sansa/Baelish dynamic that is currently on my front burner. Certainly the window panes at Winterfell work with the natural thermal heat that rises from the ground, holding that in and bringing in additional heat through light. That might still fit with the idea of the monarch requiring window panes, though, as the gemstone emperors got their start by uniting with the Maiden Made of Light. It would also fit with the idea of earth-god Garth Greenhands as the founder of all of the high-born houses of Westeros.

Perhaps this does come back to the OP in that Petyr seems to be arranging for Sansa to grow her own roses, so to speak. When he played Prince of Dragonflies with Catelyn, she was Jenny with flowers in her hair. Did she put the flowers there on her own? We see so many maidens seeming to passively receive roses from others; maybe GRRM will subvert that trope by creating a new queen who stops waiting for a perfect knight and instead takes charge of the garden.

I should also add that we do see diamond-shaped panes in Bran, Jaime, Areo Hotah, and Brienne POVs and some panes are mentioned that are not specifically identified as diamond-shaped (although no other shape is included in the description, so diamonds are not ruled out). Jaime looks out through diamond-shaped panes at the old dead tree at Raventree Hall. He and Brienne are also both traveling with people named Payne, however, so they may have acquired their "panes" in ways that don't require a glassblower. Jon contemplates buying enslaved glass blowers in Myr, bringing them over to Castle Black and having them teach their art to brothers of the Night's Watch in return for their freedom. Interesting to note that the Dany passage I cited earlier comes just before she delivers her line revealing that she wants to buy all of the Unsullied. We know that she sets them free (technically) after she buys them, so the window pane symbolism may lead into a new set of symbols about liberation.

P.S. Regarding the three colored branches of the Trident: I bet this also comes back to gems. We know that the Elder Brother is waiting for a seventh ruby to wash up on the Quiet Isle, and Tarth is surrounded by the blue waters, resulting in the nickname of the Sapphire Isle. So we just need an emerald reference for the Green Fork.

[AlaskanSandman]

On 9/25/2018 at 11:20 AM, Seams said:

 

On the rarity of Blue Roses.

 

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A blue rose is a flower of the genus Rosa (family Rosaceae) that presents blue-to-violet pigmentation instead of the more common red, white, or yellow. Blue roses are often portrayed in literature and art as symbols of love, prosperity, or immortality. However, because of genetic limitations, they do not exist in nature. In 2004 researchers used genetic modification to create roses that contain the blue pigment delphinidin.

So-called "blue roses" have been bred by conventional hybridization methods, but the results, such as "Blue Moon", are more accurately described as lilac in color.

Dyed roses[edit]

Since blue roses do not exist in nature, as roses lack the specific gene that has the ability to produce a "true blue" color, blue roses are traditionally created by dyeing white roses.^{[citation needed]} In a book entitled Kitāb al-filāḥah^[1] written by Ibn al-‘Awwām al-Ishbīlī^[2] in Arabic in the 12th century, and translated into French by J. J. Clement as Le livre de l'agriculture,^[3] there are references to azure blue roses that were known to the orient. These blue roses were made by placing a blue dye into the bark of the roots.

Genetically engineered roses

Scientists have yet to produce a truly blue colored rose; however, after thirteen years of collaborative research by an Australian company, Florigene, and a Japanese company, Suntory, a rose containing the blue pigment delphinidin was created in 2004 by genetic engineering of a white rose.^[4] The company and press have described it as a blue rose, but it is lavender or pale mauve in color.

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_rose

 

Interesting though the one time blue roses are mentioned involve a Lysene who use blue dye and came to K.L. from the Reach (I keep wondering about the Reach in Roberts Rebellion) . Though also interesting that they dont appear in nature and have to be specially bred or dyed. Also, its more lilac, than blue. Valyrian? 

If you read TWOIAF under southren ambitions thread they have Ran and a few are discussing an interesting point regarding Yandel's inclusion of Rhaegar in plotting at Harrenahl. He mentions other candidates as suspects, but never goes on to list them. The Reach would have the wealth to put on such a Tourney and Mace was present at the Tourney.

[Tai Pan]

On 9/25/2018 at 2:27 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

I'm at work and can't get to my books atm.  I'm very interested now on some people who attended the tournament.  Talking about Mance being there got me interested on who else was there.  Okay so tell if the people below were there.  I am aware it's an opinion.  We have to start somewhere
 

Mance, Viserys, Petyr B., Jorah, Barbrey Dustin, Illyrio Mopatis, Doran, Domeric B.,  and Varys.

Insulting his wife and her family is shitty.  Is it possible it wasn't Rhaegar?  A strong glamour perhaps.

 

 

Viserys, Jorah, Barbrey, and Varys were almost certainly there.  The probability is good for Mance.  Gout would prevent Doran from traveling.  Illyrio and Domeric are possible attendees.  

 

[Tai Pan]

On 9/25/2018 at 5:44 PM, Enuma Elish said:

The tournament was a sham.  Rhaegar fixed it.  I can buy that.  A skilled jouster disguised as Rhaegar?  Why not.  It's not like you need an illusion.  Maybe the point of the knight of the laughing tree is the effectiveness of disguise.  The knight could even be a woman.  Who can tell with all of that armor?  It's not out of the realm of possibility for a skilled jouster to put on Rhaegar's armor and fooled everyone into thinking he's Rhaegar.  

Rhaegar was good enough to do well.  It's tough to call.  Maybe it was fixed.  But putting a professional tourney knight in his place increases the chances of victory.  

[Lady Barbrey]

3 hours ago, Tai Pan said:

Rhaegar was good enough to do well.  It's tough to call.  Maybe it was fixed.  But putting a professional tourney knight in his place increases the chances of victory.  

The problem I have with fix is that Barristan was the runner up and gives no hint, in fact blatantly regrets not winning over Rhaegar.  

 

11 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The loud, booming voice rule out Lyanna.  The short stature rule out Rhaegar, Barristan, Mance, and Jaime.  Unless we assume illusion was being used.  Ser Shadrech in his youth?  Maybe he was paid to do it. 

Jaime was only 15, I think, and might not yet have had his full height.  In the World Book the MK is called slight, not short, and in comparison to hefty full-grown knights  a teenage Jaime would have been.The thing is, Aerys had just knighted him, so if the size obviously didn't fit, he would have realized it because he had just seen him.  He's mad, of course, so can't always be counted upon, but if there was an obvious size discrepancy with Jaime as Aerys's main suspect, you'd think Yandel would have commented on it when dismissing Aerys's suspicions.

So Jaime can't be ruled out for this reason, in my opinion.