The Mother of The Others Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 12 hours ago, The Sleeper said: when Bran ate the paste he went into the trees, whereas shade of the evening has the effect of those who drink becoming unstuck in reality. I tend to think that weirwoods are like scabs in reality while the black trees spread the instability. Great read! The Essos trees & warlocks do seem to be all about taking. While the Westeros weirwoods are more about offering(s). All of essos was grabby, tried to grab danny's dragons. Dragons were the irresistable bauble that made the slavers and the Undying dumb the way a woman makes a man stupid. Then in the west you've got the Faceless sounding almost in tune with nature when they say "All men must die." They must have learned the importance of that from watching the antics of Essos' horrible immortals, like the Undying and maybe some of the fire priests? Good stuff about weir roots digging down into holes in the veil to feed on the timeless quality found there. Maybe not all weirs are placed on a rift, cuz they're found all over? But if the first ones were, then they could pass on the timeless quality to the rest of the species' saplings no matter where they sprout. But yeah, they'd try harder to find magic hot spots to grow in. Ooh, if historic death toll locations count as veil piercers, that could indeed account for all the weir groves! As for the Undying's endgame reason for burrowing through the veil, that's fascinating. Maybe, if you get enough groves of black weir dug in like theirs, together they could empower a coven to call down the Long Night. More taking, this time taking the sun away. And if they weren't in control, could be a sign of how the system was designed for one grand sorcerer to control the undying network, the Nyarlathotep night king guy who'd perform the long night ceremony. (Imagine that scene taking place in George script!) Until then, the undying are trapped in Hotel California. What caused the heart of winter to be a veil wound sucking heat from the world! That's another fascinator. Was it some sovereign magic like bringing an entire tribe back from the grave ..... until it went sideways and the dead became a force unto themselves. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 27, 2018 Author Share Posted October 27, 2018 On 10/26/2018 at 7:10 AM, hiemal said: Sounds good to me so far. An anti-Lightbringer might, by definition, be non-magical. The Daynish exodus could have been to preserve their purity? Absolutely. That makes a lot of sense. Now you have carte blanche to tell me why Just Maid or any other sword is an anti-Lightbringer and I hope the reason is magical! Cause I'm way off topic! We're pretty close to being on the same page, although I would like to bring up that I think echoes of Florian and Jonquil in Brienne and Jaime. For sure, hiemal. Good catch! They are amalgamates, no one character is based entirely on one story. I mean Jaime is also Tyr, Bran is also a potential Merlin, Odin, Fenris Wolf, Bran the Blessed, Baldr, the Fisher King, Tyrion is King Arthur and Emperor Claudius and the Fool. I tend to focus on big allegorical trends and big symbols (not the wee ones cause I see too many people caught up in ones that likely aren't significant) like the association of Winterfell and the Starks with death or Hades to get a sense of basic structure sometimes, and it's actually unconscious most of the time, just bells ringing with thematic similarity rather than concrete similarity. That's the key to me when I bring up these allegories - thematic similarity, and then you look closer and all these concrete details do back you up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 28, 2018 Author Share Posted October 28, 2018 8 hours ago, The Sleeper said: Quote There is the danger of too much information and too much specificity running counter-productive to how Martin is using magic in Song. It would destroy the mystery. On the other hand too much mystery and it runs the risk of coming out like an ass pull and a blatant plot device. So while I think he has some ideas of how it works, he doesn't necessarily need an overhanging framework just some concepts about the magic seen most often in the series in order to provide some consistency. For the most part we have gotten what we need to know with the only area needing to be fleshed out a little more being the whole business with the previous and coming Long Night. And on that note, making a complete departure of what I just said, let me leave planet earth and launch into my own crackpot. I think everyone needs to stop apologizing for recognizing that there is indeed a general framework of magic happening, that sometimes he does get specific when he wants to, other times he doesn't cause it's not relevant to endgame or he wants to keep it mysterious. The demands made upon this author for details in every aspect of this series with its hundred of characters, place names, histories, myths, stories are a bit ludicrous but he's supplying much more than most authors would, so we won't be asking for spell recipes or direct equivalents, just logic between the touchstones he's using. If he didn't have guiding principles none of it would be logical, but in fact much of it is so when there are gaps, we should not feel apologetic for trying to fill them! My way of saying no preamble necessary! Quote Generally we've been shown that magic is dangerous, unreliable and comes at a price. Other than that I would say that, focusing on the most relevant in the narrative, we can seperate magical effects into tangible and intangible. Of the first kind we have manipulation of the elements, most prominently arranging for a favorable wind and of course necromancy along with glamors and of the latter we have all manners of prophesies, prophetic dreams, skinchangers and greenseers. As all these effects are produced through various different systems and means, I am convinced that if magic is not one then at the very least it intersects. That and because Jojen said so. All manner of divination, clairvoyance, skinchanging and greenseeing, could be thought off as extra-sensory perception/ out-of-body experience, making them all manifestations of the same power or ability in different degrees, purposes and magnitudes. The various Targs, Jojen, Nymella Toland, Maggy the Frogg and various fortune tellers and wood witches can steal glimpses of the future, past and distant places, skinchangers make brigdes between their consciousness and that of other living beings and on the top end of the spectrum we have Bran and the users of glass candles who have complete freedom and control over that ability. Or in Bran's case he will when he gets far enough along in this training. I believe that his visions after his fall were a sneak preview of what he will be able to do at will, eventually. The impression I had of them that he could see across both space and time as well as in the hearts of things. I would like to draw a parallel between Bran's coma vision and Dany at the house of the Undying. One thing that never made sense to me is why have Dany go through all that if they meant to eat her, especially as there appeared to be a good chance that she would not reach them. The only answer is that they did not have a choice in the matter. My first thought was that the Undying themselves were trapped there. My second was that it was that the whole place is a fortification. In either case it seems that they are not able to exit it or have much control over it. This would suggest that they can only exist there. And that place was much like Bran's vision with the exception that Dany was physically there along with Drogon and walking through it. It makes me wonder what would have happened had she walked through one of the doors she came across along the way. This has always drawn my attention not only because of it importance in Dany's arc but because it was by far and probably still is the most explicit magic in the series. Until we get to Tyrion in Dance and the Bridge of Dreams where for no apparent reason space and time seemed to get whimsical again for no apparent reason and we hear great leather wings beating. Something actually flying there, or perhaps an echo of something long past, or maybe a reference of something happening much more recently which also involved a dragon? It was there that Garin watched the destruction of his city and laid his curse (we are told) on the invading Valyrians. A lot of magic and a lot of death and time goes wonky. Hmm. Lost in legend but perhaps in the same vein, in Westeros in the Whispers Clarence Crabb's witch wife reanimated the heads of his vanquished foes and in the Nightfort the Night's King sacrificed to the Others. And what do these places have in common? Young weirwoods. Legends perhaps, but they relate of places where death, magic and necromancy took place. And thus we come back to Bran where the last greenseer resides beneath a grove of weirwoods which perhaps unsurprisingly has grown over a vast graveyard. There we are told that weirwoods themselves are immortal and stand outside time and hold within themselves everything they have seen and maybe will see and the memories and knowledge of all that had gone into them. The whole chapter itself is written in a dreamlike quality that time itself becomes ambiguous and Bran himself sees across time into the past and communes with his father. Leaf warns him against calling out to his father and phrases the warning as not to seek to call him back from death, which I find telling. The other prominent magic in A Song of Ice and Fire is necromancy. The dead were raised in the very first chapter after all. What has been hinted at but not explicitly stated yet is that other than raising the dead, it is also possible and in fact has happened quite a lot is communing with them. That is why I find Leaf's phrasing interesting. Not because it would be impossible, or that it would change the past but because it would raise him from the dead, perhaps in spirit or in body. In fact I am increasingly convinced that the necromancy we have seen is precisely that calling forth the dead person's spirit to reanimate his body. This ties with glamor. Melisandre told us that a person's effects can be used to weave that person's form and we see that Arya through her blood and the ugly girl's skin to take her shape and share in her memories. If a whole body is available the shade of a person can be called forth and reanimate that person's body. I think this essential to magic in Song. For lack of better term let's say there is a veil beyond which is the backstage of reality where time and space becomes meaningless. The intangible acts of magic occur when individuals either through innate ability or through various means see across the veil. The various seers take peaks and glimpse facts they have no business of knowing, skinchangers hop and land in other bodies and greenseers leave their bodies entirely and roam at will. This also could provide the blueprint for the rest of magic is supposed to work. The counterpart of reaching across time into the past if one were not say a greenseer would be memory whether recorded but in this case mostly evoked through artifacts and body parts. So the form of a person can be called and a person's body can be animated. Death itself being a transition where a person becomes memory could be seen as piercing the veil and calling it back the person's echo and memory to animate the person's corpse could be seen as that as well. The rest of magic could be seen as a person's will made manifest or by reverting to the Children's animism as shaping the elements. To stay with the veil analogy the more it is pierced the easier it would be to do so. Magic and death and particularly a combination of the two pierce the veil and if done so repeatedly in the same locale for a period of time one gets a hole in reality where it becomes untangled, maleble and chaotic, much like the greenseer see it when they do their thing. As magic would become easier to perform around such a hole it would cause a cascade. I think one such hole is the house of the Undying, perhaps dug in purpose, but in any case used to make the existence of the Undying possible, augment their power and knowledge and as defence from their enemies. I can't say it worked out well for them. The Bridge of Dreams is another such area where if reality is not cracked precisely it is frayed and Garin's curse has taken the form of a decease that persists a thousand years past. I also think that the Doom of Valyria was caused by such an effect and much like radiation it causes mutations a long distance away and the Heart of Winter is a giant hole through which the world's heat is bleeding out. The weirwoods themselves would be a species that feeds and grows on magic and thus takes root in such holes or cracks. They are immortal, hold the memories of those it has grown on and its wood appears to have many magical properties. The black trees that produce the shade of the evening would be similar in that they take root in or near cracks but I think they are opposites to weirwoods. Apart from the coloration when Bran ate the paste he went into the trees, whereas shade of the evening has the effect of those who drink becoming unstuck in reality, their minds at least or maybe even their bodies. I tend to think that weirwoods are like scabs in reality while the black trees spread the instability. That it is my own personal crackpot of how magic works in ASoIaF. The rest more or less fit in there. I don't expect much of it to be the case or that we will be told about it, but I also don't think I am far off regarding the broad strokes. I thought this was brilliant. I loved how you explained the HotU and the Bridge of Dreams because I've been pondering this whole space-time fabric, and you actually use a fabric literally, a veil as metaphor, to explain these logical connections. Love it! Will have to think about it too so I can enhance or challenge this theory. Heart of Winter, Heart of Summer - any chance your theory helps explain the seasonal inconsistency? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 5 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said: For sure, hiemal. Good catch! They are amalgamates, no one character is based entirely on one story. I mean Jaime is also Tyr, Bran is also a potential Merlin, Odin, Fenris Wolf, Bran the Blessed, Baldr, the Fisher King, Tyrion is King Arthur and Emperor Claudius and the Fool. I tend to focus on big allegorical trends and big symbols (not the wee ones cause I see too many people caught up in ones that likely aren't significant) like the association of Winterfell and the Starks with death or Hades to get a sense of basic structure sometimes, and it's actually unconscious most of the time, just bells ringing with thematic similarity rather than concrete similarity. That's the key to me when I bring up these allegories - thematic similarity, and then you look closer and all these concrete details do back you up. It's what keeps me coming to ASoIaF. I eat this stuff up with a spoon. In that vein I advance the idea that Brienne could be grail and sword all in one- a kind of anti-Stranger? Tyrion as Claudius- It hadn't struck me until you mentioned it, TBH, but then I remembered Joffrey... lol.. he didn't name a horse to the senate but he did put a Hound in the kings guard... I think Brienne may be the most pure of all the PoV characters and Jaime one of the most complicated (although that may be a tie with Arya?). I'm really looking forward to what happens next with them, but back to magic: Quote "Bring me the face," said the kindly man. The waif made no answer, but she could hear her slippers whispering over the stone floor. To the girl he said, "Drink this," and pressed a cup into her hand. She drank it down at once. It was very tart, like biting into a lemon. A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya. "... ADwD I really wish we knew what was in that cup. The taste of lemons seems significant. Is this for the pain I wonder, or is it part of the process itself and if so I wonder if this is something that must each time or if this is analogous to Bran's weirwood paste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 28, 2018 Author Share Posted October 28, 2018 3 hours ago, hiemal said: It's what keeps me coming to ASoIaF. I eat this stuff up with a spoon. In that vein I advance the idea that Brienne could be grail and sword all in one- a kind of anti-Stranger? Tyrion as Claudius- It hadn't struck me until you mentioned it, TBH, but then I remembered Joffrey... lol.. he didn't name a horse to the senate but he did put a Hound in the kings guard... I think Brienne may be the most pure of all the PoV characters and Jaime one of the most complicated (although that may be a tie with Arya?). I'm really looking forward to what happens next with them, but back to magic: I really wish we knew what was in that cup. The taste of lemons seems significant. Is this for the pain I wonder, or is it part of the process itself and if so I wonder if this is something that must each time or if this is analogous to Bran's weirwood paste? I started reading the books over 20 years ago and some people wrote essays comparing Tyrion to Claudius after the first few, based on the unlikeliness of a dwarf becoming a king but he had all those kingly symbols. This wasn't a forum, I wasn't on any, but a literary analysis site. I think George even acknowledged the resemblance. Anyway I think George gave a shout out in Dance to those early essayists - remember the dish of mushrooms Illyrio gives Tyrion that Tyrion seems unreasonably suspicious about for no reason? Claudius was poisoned by a dish of mushrooms. Also in WoIaF, the god-emperors list, that are actually thinly veiled descriptions of Westerosi characters, there is a scarlet one that is recognizably a description of Claudius. That's how I know Tyrion is likely Targ, aside from the Tintagel -Casterly Rock, how King A gets conceived thing and all the other little hints. Love the idea of Brienne as grail and sword in one. The Just Maid Grail Maiden. Tully women are really the grail maidens, of course, of the Fisher King house, that's part of the grail search, but Brienne as the grail itself - wow. If you remember your Grail stuff, she has to ask the right question to gain the grail, so I'll be looking for it in her storyline now I've actually come to like her. Let's hope she survives Hel in the form of Lady Stoneheart particularly after that attack by the hell 'hounds'. Great comparison to the paste! I'd forgotten that drink. Do you have a FM magic theory? I have to re-read unfortunately cause I don't remember it well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 13 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said: Great read! The Essos trees & warlocks do seem to be all about taking. While the Westeros weirwoods are more about offering(s). All of essos was grabby, tried to grab danny's dragons. Dragons were the irresistable bauble that made the slavers and the Undying dumb the way a woman makes a man stupid. Then in the west you've got the Faceless sounding almost in tune with nature when they say "All men must die." They must have learned the importance of that from watching the antics of Essos' horrible immortals, like the Undying and maybe some of the fire priests? Good stuff about weir roots digging down into holes in the veil to feed on the timeless quality found there. Maybe not all weirs are placed on a rift, cuz they're found all over? But if the first ones were, then they could pass on the timeless quality to the rest of the species' saplings no matter where they sprout. But yeah, they'd try harder to find magic hot spots to grow in. Ooh, if historic death toll locations count as veil piercers, that could indeed account for all the weir groves! As for the Undying's endgame reason for burrowing through the veil, that's fascinating. Maybe, if you get enough groves of black weir dug in like theirs, together they could empower a coven to call down the Long Night. More taking, this time taking the sun away. And if they weren't in control, could be a sign of how the system was designed for one grand sorcerer to control the undying network, the Nyarlathotep night king guy who'd perform the long night ceremony. (Imagine that scene taking place in George script!) Until then, the undying are trapped in Hotel California. What caused the heart of winter to be a veil wound sucking heat from the world! That's another fascinator. Was it some sovereign magic like bringing an entire tribe back from the grave ..... until it went sideways and the dead became a force unto themselves. (?) I don't think the Undying had a particular endgame apart from immortality, knowledge and power. That should be enough for your run of the mill cabal of evil sorcerers. And as for being grubby, well everyone is to one extent or the other. The more I think about it the more the house of the Undying seems constructed, because it was for one a building and for another they were able to navigate it. Whether they built it themselves, created it accidentally or found it and shaped it, I think it would serve the purposes of defence, allowing their own brand of immortality by living halfway submerged through the veil and providing knowledge as they would be able to see across time and space inside it. We also haven't found out about these trees being anywhere else. In any case I can't imagine things having gone as expected for the Undying, because sitting mummified around a table with a rotting piece of meat above you waiting for a passing adolescent dragon queen so you can have a snack does not sound like a fun way to spend eternity. As for the weirwoods, they are all over the place but there are not many of them. And it is very rare to see groves of them. They wouldn't necessarily require a rift of the size and virulence of something like the bridge of dreams to take root. Say a few generations of wood witches lived in a particular place in Westeros and made their living by talking to their neighbors dead dad about where he had buried his gold coins and raised the occasional corpse to help around the house. Something like that would not have any noticeable effect apart from making magic a little easier and maybe allowing a weirwoods to take root. Your post prompts me to expand on my theory. The, let's call them rifts, would appear to have the flavor of the magic used to dig them and also have magical creatures associated with them. The Heart of Winter has the Others and the ice spiders, the Fourteen Flames had the fire wyrms and later the dragons, the Bridge of Dreams has the various strains that cause the variety of grey diseases, the House of the Undying the Black trees. The latter should be the closest thing we have to pure magic, allowing those who imbide to pierce the veil. The weirwoods, I think would be a mixture of funereal rites, ancestor worship, communion with nature and commemoration of important events, the kind of thing you would expect from a primitive society in their everyday lives. In short, I think they relate to the kind of magic that helps build continuity and connection. This ties to your speculation about the dragons being infernal Wi-Fi hotpspots. Because the various magical beings would spread the joy around. Greyscale spreads, dragons help with fire magic, the Others help spread the winter, the black trees spread magic around and so forth. Some of the rifts should naturally occurring like the Heart of Winter and the Fourteen Flames which became dangerous and unstable until somebody messed with them. Some of the species should be naturally occurring as well. No one said that magic should be the sole province of humans. The Children I believe have a natural affinity of going in the veil which they bequeathed, willingly or not, to the First Men, either through interbreeding, some sort of magical ritual or maybe it was something that could be tought. Or a combination of the above. In short they could perform magic without the props. The way I see it about the Heart of Winter is that the Children or a faction of them saw the writing on the wall about their own extinction due to the expanding human population and decided to go for broke. They probably figured that they would weather an extra long winter much better than the humans, being of smaller size, longer lived, non reliant on agriculture and living underground and gave a jolt to the Heart of Winter. The Others saw the opportunity to turn all of the earth into their playground and expounded on that causing the winter that would never end. The Children went oops, we may have gone overboard and don't want to die of starvation and cold either or not see the sun again and helped the remaining humans rectify the situation. 9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said: I thought this was brilliant. I loved how you explained the HotU and the Bridge of Dreams because I've been pondering this whole space-time fabric, and you actually use a fabric literally, a veil as metaphor, to explain these logical connections. Love it! Will have to think about it too so I can enhance or challenge this theory. Heart of Winter, Heart of Summer - any chance your theory helps explain the seasonal inconsistency? Well, thank you. I call it the veil out of a quote about the Crone who supposedly pierced the veil of death and let the first raven into the world. You know those birds that could apparently talk and carry the spirits of the dead around them? I think it does. The Fourteen Flames could have helped counter-balance the effect of the Heart of Winter but between these two rifts running rampant regural seasons could not be restored. We may be able to able to tie the alleged creation of the dragons to that. Say there were some sorcerers in Asshai (the Shadow being another such major rift) who went hmm, it's getting cold, someone must have screwed up as we once did, we are all going to die. We need a lot more fire magic spread around. So they sailed to the Valyrian peninsula, having collected some wyvern specimens from Sothoryos and got on with playing with fire-wyrms and the aforementioned wyverns. While the fire-wyrms were confined to the Fourteen Flames burrowing underground their dragon progeny spread around the world spreading fire magic along with them. Then the Fourteen Flames were dug in for all they were worth until they blew up and collapsed taking most of the dragons with them and thus dissipating the effect that prevented the earth from dying an icy death. One might say that this was four hundred years ago but in geological terms this is barely the blink of an eye. Meanwhile, not the Westerosi end of things they went for a more traditional fire and obsidian approach attacking the Others who spread the runaway effect and containing them and after succeeding in that they built the Wall which in magical terms acts acts as a buffer soaking up magic and either dissipating it or containing it. This was perhaps the reason it kept being built up; not to make it an even greater physical barrier but because it needed to keep accumulating magic. As to who can cross it, magically speaking and who can't we can speculate. I don't think the issue is purely geographical, because the Night's Watch would not be necessary otherwise, particularly in the numbers it used to have. I think that creatures that rely on magic to survive cannot cross it because they would be cut off from their magic and either would be debilitated or outright die. But I think there are degrees to that. If the creature is powerful enough to be independent of its source perhaps it could without as much I'll effect. Say Siverwing couldn't or wouldn't cross, but Balerion could. Conversely, if great enough numbers of creatures found themselves across they would reinforce each much as they do their source and be self sustaining. The other option is that the wards or its nature of soaking up magic prevents magic from crossing it period. As such purely magical creatures simply cannot cross it period. At least not under their own power. This would explain why Siverwing disliked the Wall even when she got the chills from it, as she felt it eating up the magic that helped sustain it. The Watch would be necessary because the Others would still be able to get around it. But the area west of the Wall is easily defensible and in the East they would need to freeze the sea. As to why Bran's vision could cross it, either the weirwood net extends beneath it, greenseers built it so it let's them through, or greenseers disentangle themselves from physical reality so completely, geography doesn't affect them at all. As Bran hadn't communed with a tree yet, while seeming to have no trouble with the Wall I lean on the third option. So between the Fourteen Flames, the dragons, the Watch and the Wall the Others' expansion was unfeasible so they retreated to the land of Always Winter and waited. The former three begun to fail one by one, so they geared up and started again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiemal Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said: I started reading the books over 20 years ago and some people wrote essays comparing Tyrion to Claudius after the first few, based on the unlikeliness of a dwarf becoming a king but he had all those kingly symbols. This wasn't a forum, I wasn't on any, but a literary analysis site. I think George even acknowledged the resemblance. Anyway I think George gave a shout out in Dance to those early essayists - remember the dish of mushrooms Illyrio gives Tyrion that Tyrion seems unreasonably suspicious about for no reason? Claudius was poisoned by a dish of mushrooms. Also in WoIaF, the god-emperors list, that are actually thinly veiled descriptions of Westerosi characters, there is a scarlet one that is recognizably a description of Claudius. That's how I know Tyrion is likely Targ, aside from the Tintagel -Casterly Rock, how King A gets conceived thing and all the other little hints. Now that you mention it, I do think I vaguely remember reading something linking at least Claudius, Caligula, and Nero to ASoIaF and I know I've seen Tyrion put forward as the god-emperor in question. It probably just slipped my mind because my inner five-year-old always starts giggling about farting whenever Claudius is mentioned... I'm split on Tyrion as Targ- as you say there is lot of evidence point that way and it dovetails so nicely with so many other pieces of the puzzle but at the same time I can't ignore the possibility that it is Cersei and Jamie who are the secret Targs (Jaime's dream conservation with his mother and Cersei's feelings about fire and wildfire) and the even more attractive theory all the Lannister children are legitimate (or at least not Targ byblows) because sometimes I also feel like too many dragons is as bad as too few. 9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said: Love the idea of Brienne as grail and sword in one. The Just Maid Grail Maiden. Tully women are really the grail maidens, of course, of the Fisher King house, that's part of the grail search, but Brienne as the grail itself - wow. If you remember your Grail stuff, she has to ask the right question to gain the grail, so I'll be looking for it in her storyline now I've actually come to like her. Let's hope she survives Hel in the form of Lady Stoneheart particularly after that attack by the hell 'hounds'. If we are thinking alike in terms of bloodline might that question be something like "where did that shield in my father's armory come from?" 9 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said: Great comparison to the paste! I'd forgotten that drink. Do you have a FM magic theory? I have to re-read unfortunately cause I don't remember it well. My most comprehensive idea is that the FM are an order of the Moonsingers (The Many-Phased God theory). They represent the dark or new moon as symbolized by the black pool in the HoBaW as opposed to the (full)Moon Pool where the water dancers duel. The pools are tied together somehow, along with other waters of Braavos and form their own network. The dark pool is used to treat the Faces as well to give "the gift" to those who drink from it. The Iron Bank is another face/phase of the moon... something to do with faces on coins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 10 hours ago, The Sleeper said: Then the Fourteen Flames blew up and collapsed taking most of the dragons with them and thus dissipating the effect that prevented the earth from dying an icy death. So using this model Valyria and Heart of Winter become the National Heater / Air Conditioner units..... The answer is revealed to my earlier question of what good Fire Blood can hope to accomplish in a world where things are better off frozen/inert. Because now there's too much cooling and the freezer is icing the world up without any life-sustaining counterbalancing, so Daynairysss has been cast as the Luke Skywalker role in this series. She's the last Jedi Dragonlord who needs to take out the death star & sith emperor (the leader of the faction who wants to overdo the ice expansion to claim the whole world). This doesn't mean all Others need to go, they can remain essential, but with renewed sane interaction with the Watch, the CotF, etc., now that the temperature settings on the Heart of Winter have been returned to normal/helpful for the world, or the heart maybe gets blown up to match the valyrian implosion, letting the world regulate itself regular style from now on. The reason some of this Conspiracy speculation is "new" to me is because I've delayed taking part in theories that make the Children the full-on devious faction, cuz that's unsavory to me. Jojen, if pasted, needs a good reason to have given himself up to that fate, not just that his entire greenseer life was a scam and deception and the children are smiling with heinous cannibal glee over pasting him, you know? To maintain my high esteem for this world, I need the Children to be caught up in a chain of unfortunate consequences the same as everyone else. So ideas like the one above are more appealing, with them losing control of long winter magic and being regretful about the whole Others deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sleeper Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 8 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said: So using this model Valyria and Heart of Winter become the National Heater / Air Conditioner units..... The answer is revealed to my earlier question of what good Fire Blood can hope to accomplish in a world where things are better off frozen/inert. Because now there's too much cooling and the freezer is icing the world up without any life-sustaining counterbalancing, so Daynairysss has been cast as the Luke Skywalker role in this series. She's the last Jedi Dragonlord who needs to take out the death star & sith emperor (the leader of the faction who wants to overdo the ice expansion to claim the whole world). This doesn't mean all Others need to go, they can remain essential, but with renewed sane interaction with the Watch, the CotF, etc., now that the temperature settings on the Heart of Winter have been returned to normal/helpful for the world, or the heart maybe gets blown up to match the valyrian implosion, letting the world regulate itself regular style from now on. The reason some of this Conspiracy speculation is "new" to me is because I've delayed taking part in theories that make the Children the full-on devious faction, cuz that's unsavory to me. Jojen, if pasted, needs a good reason to have given himself up to that fate, not just that his entire greenseer life was a scam and deception and the children are smiling with heinous cannibal glee over pasting him, you know? To maintain my high esteem for this world, I need the Children to be caught up in a chain of unfortunate consequences the same as everyone else. So ideas like the one above are more appealing, with them losing control of long winter magic and being regretful about the whole Others deal. There are certain options regarding the causes of the Long Night, regardless of how it was brought about. To put them in order first we would need to consider whether it was a natural phenomenon, the causes are or will remain unknown or by a force irrelevant to the players at the time. This is a viable option, shit happens and dealing it is a decent premise for a story. The other option is that it was caused by one of the players which are the First Men, the Children and the Others. And the plan would have been to turn the conditions on Earth into something like the conditions of Pluto. The only ones who would want that and be sane would be the Others. Expansion is a motive that human societies would understand well. If any of the other two caused it, it would have to be accidental, unless we go to bond villain themes. I suppose you could have the First Men playing with ice magic, because people poke at stuff to see what happens. I favor the scenario I proposed for three reasons: It is something we can construct from the story already at hand, in a sense it involves all three players (the humans exerting inexorable pressure on the Children, the Others taking advantage of an opportunity) and it makes a certain kind of sense in that while extreme and a dick move it would have been something done in the face of certain extinction. Plus we are talking about sentient creatures which would mean that not all or even most of the Children needed to be on board. It seems to me like the sort of scenario that would fit in ASoIaF. As for the three headed dragon, that is Jon, Dany and one more I think they are meant to be sacrificed. Defeating the Others may not be feasible in the dark of winter and possibly not make enough of a difference from one on. The real extinction level event is the winter and the Others are relevant only to the degree that they help bring it about. I think it stands to reason that the cascade will or has reached enough momentum that it would go on without them. And there are plenty of reference to kings being sacrificed and as the cause of the problem is magic it can only be corrected with magic. I don't think it is a ring that is meant to be thrown in Mount Doom this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fun Guy from Yuggoth Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 On 10/26/2018 at 3:19 PM, The Mother of The Others said: we already have The Shadow of Asshai, even during low magic tide, right? So at high tide someone just extends that curtain of night further. And then all the way, baby, yeah. No spaceship required. Well, I think one of the spaceships is the Shadow over Asshai. In Hindu mythology Asuras are described as powerful superhuman demigods. The malevolent Asuras are led by Vritra, also called Ahi (or Azhi), Ahi appears as a dragon blocking the course of the rivers and is heroically slain by Indra (the Storm God). Asura Ahi = Azor Ahai, and Azhi = Asshai = dragon, (In Zoroastrianism Azi is a three-headed dragon that wanted to depopulate the world) Ahi blocks rivers, and the Long Night caused the Rhoyne to dwindle and disappear. Azor Ahai is a "dragon," Asshai is named after him. Another name of Azi the dragon is Azi Dahak, Dahak means "stinging, burning, manlike, huge, foreign" so Azi Dahak means "dragon who is huge, foreign, manlike, and who stings." Dahak from David Weber's Mutineer's Moon is the name of moon-sized spaceship that came to Earth 50,000 years ago. In Mutineer's Moon, the Dahak has a mutiny and the ship begins autodestruct and many smaller ships evacuate to Earth, but then Dahak doesn't explode, but goes into hibernation instead (and waits for a new captain to pilot it). The lifeboats land on primitive Earth, and the crew have names of ancient Earth gods, Anu, Inanna, Osir, Druaga, and it is implied that they built human civilization on Earth. (tie-in with Annunaki and the planet Nibiru). In the story there is an alien race called the "Achuultani", who periodically exterminates all intelligent life, typically with asteroid strikes. And in Niven's The Flying Sorcerers, an astronaut from a "great black moon" spaceship is stranded on a primitive planet, the indigenous people refer to him as "the stranger." And they think his technological devices are magic. (also they had a moon hit their planet that created the Circle Sea [sounds like the God's Eye]). The black spaceship is compared to a mountain. Later they call the stranger "purple," and Great Empire people have purple eyes. In ASOIAF Dragons came from the second moon that cracked during eclipse, and dragons came from the Shadow, therefore the Shadow is the second "moon". "The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky." In Bran's falling dream: He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book" What are the shadows in the sky that Luwin was measuring, and why did they make him frown? Was it The Shadow? And or the Stranger? The line "The moon was a black hole in the sky" is repeated twice. Celestial bodies that are black holes in the sky. Recall also the black planet Yuggoth from Lovecraft, built entirely out of black stone: "a still undiscovered and almost lightless planet at the very edge of our solar system—beyond Neptune, and the ninth in distance from the sun. It is, as we have inferred, the object mystically hinted at as “Yuggoth” in certain ancient and forbidden writings; and it will soon be the scene of a strange focussing of thought upon our world in an effort to facilitate mental rapport. I would not be surprised if astronomers became sufficiently sensitive to these thought-currents to discover Yuggoth when the Outer Ones wish them to do so." The aliens from Yuggoth colonized Earth to extract metals, and the Valyrians were obsessed with mining also. Recall also that in Hindu myth Rahu, who was a giant and not a god, drank the elixir of immortality and was decapitated by Vishnu as he was swallowing it, he was then transformed into a heavenly body--his head, the Dragon's Head--is a shadow planet that causes eclipses when it swallows the sun. Ketu--the Dragon's Tail (the trunk of his body) causes lunar eclipses. (Rahu is sometimes green and rides a lion, and Valyrian sphinxes are green with a lion body) A giant/dragon/shadow planet causing eclipses. The Mountain was a giant that was decapitated, and he is described as blocking out the sun several times. azhiʼ also means "torso, trunk, or body" in Navajo, but that might just be coincidence. What are some things that are depicted as blocking out the sun in ASOIAF?: Darkstar "His eyes seemed black as he sat outlined against the dying sun" "Men call me Darkstar, and I am of the night." "Above them all the dragon turned, dark against the sun. His scales were black" " A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun" "There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood." (the river in Asshai is called Ash, and it is by the Shadow) "The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden" In Asimov's Nightfall, when the dark planet causes the eclipse they say their planet went into the Cave of Darkness, In the book version of Nightfall when they are talking about what causes the eclipse they say "an unknown factor! A dragon in the sky! An invisible giant! . . . A dark sun, maybe, or some other world that's located at a position that is impossible for us to see" Things that might cause eclipse: dragon, giant, dark star, invisible planet. Those are all things that blot out the sun in ASOIAF, but the reality is a dark planet/dark spaceship. (for you ancient aliens fans, Nibiru is called a shadow planet also, and the Annunaki aliens were supposed to have traveled here on it and built civilizations, and it is supposed to have a 3600 year orbit) The wording of the Long Night events sounds like eclipse "Maiden-Made-of-Light turned her back upon the world, and the Lion of Night came forth" "the sun hid its face from the earth for a lifetime" " the long night, when the sun hides its face for years at a time" If there was a diffuse black cloud that blocked out the entire sky, they would have said so. They could still see the sky, and they could see the Lion of Night blocking the sun, and they could see when the Red Comet came back--the flaming sword, the woman with a monkey's tail that ended the Long Night. And maybe they could also see the dragons that poured forth from the second moon exploding. Change of subject, I think some on the characters might be mythologized planets, this is only half-assed at this point, but I thought I should throw it out anyway. In alchemy the planets have metals associated with them The Sun rules Gold The Moon, Silver Mercury, Quicksilver/Mercury Venus, Copper Mars, Iron Jupiter, Tin Saturn, Lead Lannisters are gold, Jaime and Joffrey are the sun "the morning sun was in his hair, giving it a golden glow" " his golden armor flashing in the sun" "his golden armor bright in the light of the rising sun" In Hindu mythology the sun god Savitar cut off his hand as sacrifice and the priests gave him a golden hand to replace it, Jaime has a golden hand. (lanista means "trainer of gladiators, instigator" in latin) In Latin denarius is a silver coin and Argyria is silver poisoning that turns your eyes purple, and her horse is named Silver, Dany is the moon, khaleesi = caelistis "heavenly, celestial, divine, supernatural, god" Mercury/quicksilver is a hermaphrodite, and Hermes was a messenger and a psychopomp, Arya Sansa has copper hair, so does Catelyn, they are Venus Mars is? Jon, black iron, Jon's color is black " All in black, he was a shadow among shadows, dark of hair" "stannis" means "of tin" in Latin, so he is Jupiter, (the regal elements are gold and silver, and his element being tin might also be a hint that he is not Azor Ahai) "plumb" means "lead" Maynard Plumm/Bloodraven is the crone? While we are talking about alchemy, Catelyn sounds like catalyst, something that begins a chemical reaction, or an inciting incident that sets the plot in motion. And then there is a green lion that eats the sun (recall Rahu was green and rode a lion). In alchemy, the green lion was Vitriol, an acid that was used to extract gold from raw ore. In ASOIAF, the Lion of Night causes the eclipse and depopulates the planet in order to extract the "gold"--that is, a culling of the herd to leave only the strongest people. And in the Faith of the Seven, I think the gods are the planets Mercury is the warrior, Arya The Maid is Venus morningstar, Sansa The Mother is Venus evenstar, Catelyn Mars is the Smith, Jon Jupiter is the Father, Ned or Stannis Saturn is the Crone, Nan? Stranger is the black planet, Sandor Dany's horse is silver and she is the moon, Sandor Clegane's horse was named Stranger, "Stranger, the Hound called him. Arya had tried to steal him once, when Clegane was taking a piss against a tree, thinking she could ride off before he could catch her. Stranger had almost bitten her face off. He was gentle as an old gelding with his master, but otherwise he had a temper as black as he was. She had never known a horse so quick to bite or kick." Clegane's horse has security features that prevent unauthorized users. "No one rested very comfortably that night, knowing that Sandor Clegane was out there in the dark, somewhere close." “Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered the black helm over his head.” “A shadow fell across his face. He turned to find Clegane looming overhead like a cliff. His soot-dark armor seemed to blot out the sun.” “Sandor Clegane seemed to take form out of the night, so quickly did he appear.” “'I'll tell you what it was, girl,' he said, a voice from the night, a shadow leaning so close now that she could smell the sour stench of wine on his breath.” “A shadow detached itself from the shadow of the wall, to become a tall man in dark grey armor.” “Then something stirred behind her, and a hand reached out of the dark and grabbed her wrist.” The Stranger is one of the Great Empire Spaceships (the Lion of Night). "the Stranger represents death and the unknown. the wanderer from far places, less and more than human, unknown and unknowable. The Stranger's face has also been described as half-human, concealed beneath a hooded mantle." "the Stranger's face is a black oval, a shadow with stars for eyes." I think it is a totally black spaceship (fused black stone material), perhaps with two lights on it. It can be seen from Earth only when it travels in front of other known planets and stars that it then blocks out. It has to be very big, planet sized. "the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden Made-of-Light" Sandor is called the Hound. First he followed (hounded) Joffrey the Sun, then he followed Sansa (Venus morningstar), then Arya (Mercury), the fact that both girls lost their wolves could be a reference to when the Stranger drifted away from them. Arya's friend Mycah that the hound cuts in half might be another planet, "Mycah has been cut up in so many pieces that his body was brought back to his father in a bag" sounds a lot like planetary debris. Some of which could be trailing the Stranger (the guilt is following him)(see also the Book of Micah from the Bible*) Beric is the Red Comet, and the fight between the Hound and Beric when the Hound breaks Beric's flaming sword and kills him might be the Stranger passing in front of the Red Comet, because Beric is immediately brought back to life. Then Sandor abandons his hound helm, he is no longer dogging a planet. But he is coming our way and that was what Luwin saw through his telescope, and what Euron sees "Crow’s Eye, you call me. Well, who has a keener eye than the crow?" "A crow can espy death from afar." The Stranger is Death. Euron can espy the Stranger from afar. The Hound kills Mycah and in the Book of Micah there is a prophecy of God destroying us for our evil ways: Look! The Lord is coming from his dwelling place; he comes down and treads on the heights of the earth.The mountains melt beneath him and the valleys split apart,like wax before the fire, like water rushing down a slope.All this is because of Jacob’s transgression, because of the sins of the people of Israel. Therefore I will make Samaria a heap of rubble, a place for planting vineyards.I will pour her stones into the valley and lay bare her foundations. All her idols will be broken to pieces; all her temple gifts will be burned with fire; I will destroy all her images.Since she gathered her gifts from the wages of prostitutes, as the wages of prostitutes they will again be used.” For Samaria’s plague is incurable; it has spread to Judah. Therefore, the Lord says: “I am planning disaster against this people, from which you cannot save yourselves. Then they will cry out to the Lord, but he will not answer them.At that time he will hide his face from them because of the evil they have done. From George's other stories, Aircars and spaceships shaped like animals From Tuf: Quote The Artificers of Mhure, who were inordinately proud of their craftmanship, had been so pleased by the clever dragonettes Tuf had provided to check their plague of wing-rats that they had given him an iron-and-silver dragon-shuttle with huge bat-wings . . . “the looming alien ships, at the thing that looked like a metal dragon nesting amid the distant shadows.” From Dying of the Light Quote “The car, when they reached it, took Dirk aback. He had seen a lot of different types of aircars in his travels, but none quite like this one; huge and steel-gray, with curved and muscled triangular wings, it looked almost alive, like a great aerial manta ray fashioned in metal. A small cockpit with four seats was set between the wings, and beneath the wingtips he glimpsed ominous rods. . . It's supposed to look like an animal, the black banshee. A flying predator, also the brother-beast of the Ironjade Gathering. Very big in their folklore, sort of a totem." “Another beast-car, fashioned of blue-black metal in the grotesque likeness of a giant bat, it was more realistic and frightening than Jaan Vikary's rather stylized manta-banshee” “The second aircar he found was in even worse shape. In fact, it could hardly be called a car at all. Nothing remained but a bare metal frame and four rotting seats squatting in the midst of the tubing-a skeleton gutted of even its skin.” (reminded me of Nagga's ribs) Wolf Aircar “Thoroughly Kavalar, the car was a stubby two-seater with short triangular wings that looked even more useless than the wings on other aircars of High Kavalaan manufacture. It was all silver and white enamel, and the metal canopy was shaped to resemble a wolf's head. Lasercannon were mounted on both sides of the fuselage. The car was not locked; Dirk pushed up on the canopy, and it swung open easily. He climbed in, snapped it shut, and looked out of the wolf's great eyes with a wry smile on his face. So, in conclusion, dragons coming from a moon could very well be small spaceships coming from a very large round black spaceship. There are two spaceships, one very nearby messing up our seasons and shadowing Asshai, and the other drifting around the solar system aimlessly, they will both called back by the dragonbinder horn, but Sandor takes much longer to come back, because he was far away, and the ship is damaged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 Quote ... In Hindu mythology the sun god Savitar cut off his hand as sacrifice and the priests gave him a golden hand to replace it, Jaime has a golden hand..... Rahu is sometimes green and rides a lion, and Valyrian sphinxes are green with a lion body). Well, after scouring all of creation, you've uncovered George's unoriginal acts of theft from mythic sources. Congratulations, if that's considered an upper and not a downer. George probably wouldn't invite people to peer into the open back of his hospital gown like this after performing such invasive deconstructionist surgery. Showing all the foreign-made parts plugged into the books may interfere with ice & fire's ability to live and breathe on its own in people's minds. Also i don't know if it's for the best to kill this series' golden sungod goose by shoving an oversized oblong spaceship egg into the forever night of its ass. I mean, of course it's permament night in there! But it doesn't mean an emu egg properly fits into that goose. And it's also why this spaceship smells. Once an ass held high in regard, the reader's enjoyment of Asshai is what's now eclipsed by the encroachment of another genre, the dreaded science fiction with its science diction. We dissect the series fulltime, of course, so this SoIaF genome project was inevitable with Asuras being brought in. Spaceship causation still isn't a thing, primarily on account of how there's no spaceship. A familiar key ingredient missing from UFO stories. He may have fed us a UFO story knowing it would entrance part of the modern audience but also knowing there's no spaceship forthcoming because it's a fantasy novel and because absent spaceships are the hallmark of the UFO phenomenon. Asshai is dark, period. The spaceship is just what you've got eclipsing yur cabeza. Similar to how when one listens to lesbian podcasts one hears "the patriarchy!" blurted out just as often as the "spaceship" is encountered here. Because it's their chosen filter to see everything through. They often merely site someone's guyhood to establish motive, agenda, ties to historical evils. (This gives guys too much credit. The patriarchy sounds a lot more organized than the average guy who's just in search of a sandwich.....but "Aha!, saith the lesbian podcasters, "This can all be brought full circle, because who is he gonna try to get to make that sandwich for him? A woman. Because.......The Patriarchy!" ...etc.) You do a more admirable job with evidence collecting, which is the charm of it all, and we appreciate the GRRM 401 classroom feel, but it's motivated more by "Spaceship!" than by what's likely to appear in the series. Ancient Aliens has really done a disservice to the Science Channel by warping viewers' thought processes to ask as their controlling question, Quote "Is it possible that it's aliens... For example, the possibility exists that aliens are what's behind the emergence of transexuals and Third Bathroom politics, because the Reticulans are trying to expand our minds starting with what we know- - our genitals. But by thinking of transexuals, or the great pyramids, as a gift from aliens, this denies the transexuals' intrinsic value as Earthlings and the pyramids' value as Earth's greatest accomplishments. It devalues. Instead of having a complex and important social issue to pore over and grapple with , now ancient astronaut theorists are showing me a graphic of a being with both male and female parts lowering down from out of the sky until it lands on the tip of the giza pyramid which then emits a golden light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 17 hours ago, The Sleeper said: There are certain options regarding the causes of the Long Night, regardless of how it was brought about. To put them in order first we would need to consider whether it was a natural phenomenon, the causes are or will remain unknown or by a force irrelevant to the players at the time. This is a viable option, shit happens and dealing it is a decent premise for a story. The other option is that it was caused by one of the players which are the First Men, the Children and the Others. And the plan would have been to turn the conditions on Earth into something like the conditions of Pluto. The only ones who would want that and be sane would be the Others. Expansion is a motive that human societies would understand well. If any of the other two caused it, it would have to be accidental, unless we go to bond villain themes. I suppose you could have the First Men playing with ice magic, because people poke at stuff to see what happens. I favor the scenario I proposed for three reasons: It is something we can construct from the story already at hand, in a sense it involves all three players (the humans exerting inexorable pressure on the Children, the Others taking advantage of an opportunity) and it makes a certain kind of sense in that while extreme and a dick move it would have been something done in the face of certain extinction. Plus we are talking about sentient creatures which would mean that not all or even most of the Children needed to be on board. It seems to me like the sort of scenario that would fit in ASoIaF. As for the three headed dragon, that is Jon, Dany and one more I think they are meant to be sacrificed. Defeating the Others may not be feasible in the dark of winter and possibly not make enough of a difference from one on. The real extinction level event is the winter and the Others are relevant only to the degree that they help bring it about. I think it stands to reason that the cascade will or has reached enough momentum that it would go on without them. And there are plenty of reference to kings being sacrificed and as the cause of the problem is magic it can only be corrected with magic. I don't think it is a ring that is meant to be thrown in Mount Doom this time. Yes I favour the Others being wrought by the Children and causing the Long Night as well, though I don't rule out Asshai as first beginning the seasonal problem. Essos is a burned land, in both soul and nature, fire entity. It's difficult to deduce a sequence in Westeros when we've got possible interference first from Asshai and then from Valyria. I've been playing with the idea for a bit that the Arm of Dorne, when swamped, was actually an origin point for seasonal inconsistency because it symbolically connected the fire lands of Essos with ice lands of Westeros. But that's just another tangent in the scheme of things because there just isn't enough to go on. I think the prophecies of a chosen one is a variation of the truth but mangled. The Valyrians appropriated it to themselves as a way to rebirth dragons and save the world - their world, of Targaryen supremacy, fire and blood. So Dany is a variation and a possibility. If she defeats the Others and becomes the queen that fire version of the prophecy comes true. But people keep forgetting what a horrible world that was, with Faceless Men assisting all those slaves praying for death. Dany might be okay but Valyrians on the whole are horrible, just as bad as the Others. The Others likely know a variation of the prophecy too, and have their own chosen one, though don't know who, just some kind of prediction, among Craster's kids, Gilly's baby, whose essence might take down the Wall to save the world - their world, of cold, dark and death. They've repowered their necromancy, built up an army, and now they're waiting for the Wall to come down, which it will, fulfilling that ice version of the prophecy. Good times! The Children don't need a prophecy. They know it is a 'child of three' that is needed - of earth, Ice and fire - a return of a special bloodline from before it was split, that can serve as funnel to reintegrate these fire and blood others they themselves created. I know I emphasize the bloodline aspect a lot, but It's because I'm thinking end game, healing the split, healing the seasons, and I don't know how that's possible by a sword or Dragons, and we've been given every indication It's something in Jon's heritage that's important. Jon's the crux, maybe a funnel, but absolutely and unfortunately, a sacrifice, as you say. ETA: I think, though this is purest speculation, that what Jon needs to do will be something like what Beric Dondarrion and Thoros have done in microcosm. It's an example of 'sympathetic magic' , think voodoo dolls. A lock of hair, or nail clipping, gives access to the whole person. A little of Beric's possible fire soul gifts him with whole life through fire magic. In this speculation, Beric's the John the Baptist to Jon's Jesus (says the non-believer) so let's think what a little of Jon's huge, cosmos-wide tripartate, bifrost bridge soul might be capable of with the assistance of earth, fire and ice magic together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fun Guy from Yuggoth Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Quote the bronze Myrish lens tube sat on a tripod by the terrace door, star charts hung from the walls, shadow maps lay scattered among the rushes, The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky. He saw Maester Luwin on his balcony, studying the sky through a polished bronze tube and frowning as he made notes in a book. Luwin was mapping the movement of the "shadow" and he uses star charts and the telescope to map it. The Shadow is a celestial object. It is mentioned three times, and once on the same dream as the Mountain eclipsing the sun, and dragons beneath the sunrise, and the curtain of light in the heart of winter. Quote North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks. Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live. Because winter is coming. Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. The curtain of light is sunshine, not the Aurora, beyond that curtain is darkness and that is where the Others are hiding out, under the shadow of the Shadow. They can only move from that shadow at night and have to return there during the day--that is what has kept them in the far north for thousands of years. Bran sees something scary there in the heart of winter, his tears burned his cheeks--indicating that Bran is extremely cold and that regular body temperature tears burned him. (Bran is Ice, Dany is Fire, in her dream her tears turned to steam, and Catelyn's were acid) The crow says "now you know why you must live . . . because winter is coming" and that knowledge was terrible. I think Bran saw himself in the heart of winter leading the Others. If Bran merely saw the Others and the crow said "now you know why you must live" Bran would be confused, what could little Bran possibly do against the Others? But if Bran saw himself alive as a grown man leading the Others, the crow saying "now you know why you must live" would make sense--he has to live to be their leader, and that knowledge was terrible. Quote " Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. " [The Kingsguard are a metaphor for the Others, Bran wants to be one] "I don't want to be broken," he whispered fiercely to Maester Luwin, who'd been seated to his right. "I want to be a knight." "There are some who call my order the knights of the mind," Luwin replied. "You are a surpassing clever boy when you work at it, Bran. Have you ever thought that you might wear a maester's chain? There is no limit to what you might learn." "I want to learn magic," Bran told him. "The crow promised that I would fly." " It was knighthood he had always dreamed of" " If I had a poleaxe with a big long haft, Hodor could be my legs. We could be a knight together." [he could skinchange another human to become a knight] "There was a knight once who couldn't see," Bran said stubbornly, as Ser Rodrik went on below. "Old Nan told me about him. He had a long staff with blades at both ends and he could spin it in his hands and chop two men at once." "Symeon Star-Eyes," Luwin said as he marked numbers in a book. "When he lost his eyes, he put star sapphires in the empty sockets, or so the singers claim. Bran, that is only a story, like the tales of Florian the Fool. A fable from the Age of Heroes." The maester tsked. "You must put these dreams aside, they will only break your heart." [Bran will be a night in total darkness, with stars for eyes, one of the knights of ancient lore, this dream will only break his heart (tree?)] "the yard belonged to their squires, who ranged in age from ten to forty. Bran wished he were one of them so badly that his stomach hurt with the wanting" " I want to be a knight." "So long as there was magic, anything could happen. Ghosts could walk, trees could talk, and broken boys could grow up to be knights. " " I want to be a knight." "I'm only nine. I'll be better when I'm older. Even Florian the Fool and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight weren't great knights when they were nine." [Bran will be a great knight when he grows up] "When he'd been little, all he had ever dreamed of was being a knight." "He likes the stories where the knights fight monsters." "Sometimes the knights are the monsters, Bran." Bran mentions wanting to be a knight about 10 times, once specifically a Kings Guard/Other, and a skinchanged knight, and a great knight of ancient lore who cannot see. Meera warns him that some knights are monsters, and Coldhands the reanimated corpse is Bran's monster--I think he is straight up telling us that Bran was the one who reanimated him, indicating not only a time-travel paradox, but that Bran is the Great Other, for some reason it never clicked in my head that there are the Others and the Great Other is their leader. Quote But beyond the Wall, the enemy grows stronger, and should he win the dawn will never come again. She wondered if it had been his face that she had seen, staring out at her from the flames. No. Surely not. His visage would be more frightening than that, cold and black and too terrible for any man to gaze upon and live. The wooden man she had glimpsed, though, and the boy with the wolf's face … they were his servants, surely … his champions, as Stannis was hers. Bran is either the champion of the Great Other, or the Great Other himself. Quote She remembered a story Old Nan had told once, about a man imprisoned in a dark castle by evil giants. He was very brave and smart and he tricked the giants and escaped . . . but no sooner was he outside the castle than the Others took him, and drank his hot red blood. I think this story was about Bran, who escapes from the weirwoods, only to become one of the Others. I think originally the Others were the weirwood's Storm Troopers and they were under total control by the CoTF and the weirwood. But to escape the weirwood Bran went back in time and skinchanged a man right as the children were turning him into an Other and he became a god--the CoTF leveled him up inadvertently, and he became the Great Other and not under control of the weirwood anymore. A creature of ice now, he now longer has to worry about his human body starving to death without being connected to the trees, as ice preserves. Bran says even a single day as a knight would be enough, but the irony is that he becomes an immortal knight who is trapped 8000 years in the past, and then has to sit around for 8000 years or however long and wait for Bran to be born and the comet to come back so that he can fix this whole mess. And there is the whole Brandon Ice Eyes passage, where he slaughters people and hangs their entrails from the weirwood. --------------------- Your argument about UFOs being all in my head might carry more weight if George hadn't already written a story where a black all-powerful spaceship is mistaken for a star and it periodically annihilates civilization. In Tuf Voyaging, the Plague Star is actually a spaceship on autopilot that has a long orbit Quote The stars come out, one by one, but the only star that matters burns night and day, day and night. It is always with me, the brightest thing in the sky but for the sun. It is the plague star. I told Janeel once; a plague star ought to be red. It ought to glower, to drape itself with scarlet radiance, to whisper into the night hints of fire and of blood. In that time we smiled at it, at the superstitions of these primitives, these backward brutes who thought sickness came from the sky. Yet then the plague star began to wax. Night after night it burned more brightly, until it became visible even by day. Long before that time the pestilence had begun. The plague star is huge and bright above me, and now I understand why it is white. White is the color of purity, ho, and the plague star purifies this land. Yet its touch corrupts and decays. There is a fine irony in that, is there not? Every third generation, just as they are climbing out of their misery, as populations are swelling once again, the plague star waxes larger and larger in their nighttime skies. And when this star becomes the brightest in the heavens, then the season of plagues begins. Pestilences sweep across Hro B’rana, each more terrible than the last. The healers are helpless. Crops wither, animals perish, and three-quarters of the sentient population dies. Those who survive are thrown back into the most brutal sort of existence. Then the plague star wanes, and with its waning the plagues pass from Hro B’rana for another three generations. That is the legend.” “It’s a warship, Tuf, a warship in a long elliptical orbit around Hro B’rana. It’s one of the most devastating weapons Old Earth ever put into the void against the Hrangans, in its own way as terrible as that mythical hellfleet they talk about from those last days before the Collapse. But it has vast potential for good as well as ill! It’s the repository of the most advanced biogenetic science of the Federal Empire, a functioning artifact packed full of secrets lost to the rest of humanity.” All of them stared at the viewscreen, at the long black twisted shape that floated against the stars, here and there shining with faint lights and pulsing with unseen energies A star that is not a star, but an all-powerful ship, that purifies the land by killing people, collapsing civilization, and keeps a whole planet primitive. A derelict warship, a relic of a collapsed empire. It is black with shining faint lights, like the Stranger's face. The plot of the story is a struggle over who will attain the power of the gods. 19 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said: George probably wouldn't invite people to peer into the open back of his hospital gown like this after performing such invasive deconstructionist surgery. I have the exact opposite feeling, I think he would be pleased that I have a stack of books 4 feet tall that I am combing through to pick out all the references he has made. He made the books into a treasure hunt, I think that was by design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fun Guy from Yuggoth Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 There is this passage when Jon and the Wildlings are climbing the wall Quote The sun was high in the sky, and the upper third of the Wall was a crystalline blue from below, reflecting so brilliantly that it hurt the eyes to look on it. Jarl's four and Grigg's were all but lost in the glare, though Errok's team was still in shadow. I always thought it was a mistake that the sun could be directly overhead as far north as the wall in autumn, but if the Shadow is so massive that it can change the tilt the Earth, then this might have been a clue rather than a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legitimate_Bastard Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 On 10/25/2018 at 12:22 AM, By Odin's Beard said: "Varis" refers to the "hooded crow" in Finnish, I think Varys has a connection to the network also. "Ned's mouth twisted in anger. "Damn Varys and his little birds. Catelyn spoke truly, the man has some black art" . . . "You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer." . . . Varys: "My lord, do you believe in the old powers?" "Magic, you mean?" Tyrion said impatiently. "Bloodspells, curses, shapeshifting, those sorts of things?" He snorted. "Do you mean to suggest that Ser Cortnay was magicked to his death?" . . . "My lord, you once asked me how it was that I was cut." . . . " With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke." "Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. " Varys suggests that the voice in the blue flame was the "old powers" --that is, the old gods, and who do we know that is associated with the old gods and regularly visits people in their dreams? I think the voice in the blue flame was the 3 eyed crow (not Bloodraven, but the leader of the Others), and it got into Varys' mind through the ritual and has been in communication with him ever since, getting Varys to act on his behalf (all the characters whose names are related to crows are working for the 3 eyed crow) From the scene with Varys and Illyrio: "So many?" The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. "The ones you need are hard to find … so young, to know their letters … perhaps older … not die so easy …" "No. The younger are safer … treat them gently …" "… if they kept their tongues …" "… the risk …" Varys is involved in a kidnapping/child slavery scheme where the kids get their tongues cut out, are forced into servitude and killed when they are no longer useful. This is a massive blood sacrifice that he offers to the weirwood in exchange for knowledge, and he uses that knowledge to destabilize Westeros and plunge it into civil war. "Yet we who presume to rule must do vile things for the good of the realm, howevermuch it pains us." Varys confessed to killing Kevan because Kevan was trying to unite the seven kingdoms. "Ser Kevan. Forgive me if you can. I bear you no ill will. This was not done from malice. It was for the realm. For the children." " but you were threatening to undo all the queen's good work, to reconcile Highgarden and Casterly Rock, bind the Faith to your little king, unite the Seven Kingdoms under Tommen's rule. So …" And in his conversation with Illyrio in the tunnels, he was stirring up strife the whole time (like Ratatosk, the squirrel who lives on Yggdrasil, who carries messages of malice) "Tell me, Lord Varys, who do you truly serve?" Varys smiled thinly. "Why, the realm, my good lord, how ever could you doubt that? I swear it by my lost manhood. I serve the realm, and the realm needs peace." I think Varys is actually telling the truth. Varys is softening up the realm in preparation for the invasion of the Others. The Others are actually the good guys and are trying to save humanity from the weirwood. Varys is trying to remove any opposition for when the Others come south and head for the God's Eye to destroy the main weirwood. But what you said about man laying hands on god's power, the weirwood is too powerful, and its influence too corrupting, and that is why the 3ec/Bran/the Others and their allies are going to destroy the weirwood. As long as there is an incentive to commit child sacrifice, the children won't be safe, and Varys wants to make the realm safe for the children and bring peace to the realm, that means they have to destroy the weirwood and destroy magic. "You did not trust me?" Ned was frankly astonished. "The Red Keep shelters two sorts of people, Lord Eddard," Varys said. "Those who are loyal to the realm, and those who are loyal only to themselves. Until this morning, I could not say which you might be … so I waited to see … and now I know, for a certainty." He smiled a plump tight little smile, and for a moment his private face and public mask were one. "I begin to comprehend why the queen fears you so much. Oh, yes I do." "You are the one she ought to fear," Ned said. Varys wears "masks" and he is very similar to a faceless man in that he is a master of disguise. And Illyrio is a deep-cover Faceless Man. "Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might." Illyrios in Greek mythology is the son of the savage man-eating cyclops Polythemus ("abounding in songs and legends") and a sea nymph Galatea ("she who is milk-white") sound like he is the son of the weirwood. This is the story of Illyrius' father Polythemus: A savage giant who breaks guest-right and eats his guests in a cave, sounds like a weirwood. And Mopatis is an anagram of imposta which is an Italian verb meaning "to set up a plan" I am looking for the thread on the tunnels and weirwood roots that go across the world. Fits right in with this. Great stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 23 hours ago, Lady Barbrey said: let's think what Jon's bifrost bridge soul might be capable of with the assistance of earth, fire and ice magic together. The Children don't need a prophecy. They know it is a 'child of three' that is needed - of earth, Ice and fire - a return of a special bloodline from before it was split, that can serve as funnel to reintegrate these fire and blood others they themselves created. Hmmm. Something needs to justify the bloodlines being the crux. So that'd mean some part of the Others' gripe needs to be a personal grudge with the human world that Jon can address in a way the rest of humanity can't. I was thinking that Jon is the Nixon figure who can go to China (parlay with the Others and survive it) perhaps specifically because they now share in common a history of being betrayed by the Watch. Like, that'd give the Others and him a common perspective to use as an icebreaker so to speak when They perhaps resurrect Jon and finally fill him in on what's what. The rest of it? The way the combo blood in Jon makes all the difference? It allows him to come back as is. Not all messed up by the Otherization process. Like, he can handle it without devolving into a white walker like the rest always have. Which.... allows him to..... flip some all important switch in the magical plotline that's been too 'Hot' for the Walkers to lay hands on, whilst on the human side of the story he'll be the one who gives voice to the Other's true agenda, alerting people to how the ancient mistake can be corrected / atoned for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 And @Beardman, fine. Truce. Clearly, you've got a lot going for you in the way of signs and portents. Granted. What I've got, most simply put, is this: yes George has built his familiar sci- fi elements into this world, including the huge shadow of what "must" be a spaceship, because that made him feel good about the project, like it was a complete universe by his own standards as a guy from a sci- fi background. BUT, and I'm tempted to put two T's on that 'but' because of how huge this butt is, .... remember how George was initially going to leave dragons out of the telling of this story's present day narrative, and then somebody convinced him to add the dragons in? Well, I feel another of those early decisions was to leave the spaceship out. Because of the aforementioned poor fit issue. (Sorry about the earlier golden goose rectalization ....analogy.) So there we are, standing on opposite sides of this narrow sea. No biggie. You can visit me anytime just by hopping on your spaceship, which would leave my dragon coughing on your exhaust fumes if there's ever a Fast & Furious crossover event with Game of Thrones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Barbrey Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 11 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said: Hmmm. Something needs to justify the bloodlines being the crux. So that'd mean some part of the Others' gripe needs to be a personal grudge with the human world that Jon can address in a way the rest of humanity can't. I was thinking that Jon is the Nixon figure who can go to China (parlay with the Others and survive it) perhaps specifically because they now share in common a history of being betrayed by the Watch. Like, that'd give the Others and him a common perspective to use as an icebreaker so to speak when They perhaps resurrect Jon and finally fill him in on what's what. The rest of it? The way the combo blood in Jon makes all the difference? It allows him to come back as is. Not all messed up by the Otherization process. Like, he can handle it without devolving into a white walker like the rest always have. Which.... allows him to..... flip some all important switch in the magical plotline that's been too 'Hot' for the Walkers to lay hands on, whilst on the human side of the story he'll be the one who gives voice to the Other's true agenda, alerting people to how the ancient mistake can be corrected / atoned for. Maybe? But if Jon is a crux in three-elemental bloodline, I think Winterfell is a three-elemental crux too that corresponds. We know about the Heart tree, what about the freezing cold bottomless black pool, and then the hot springs all around and beneath it? Earth (the Heart tree), Ice (the freezing pool) and Fire (the hotsprings). All connected to earthen core of fire and ice by root and water? Is Winterfell a Heart of Winter and a Heart of Summer as well? It's the only actively geothermal place on Westeros that's not an island that we know of. We know Bran saw a Heart of Winter in his visions, but when he sees it he cries "hot tears that burned his cheeks". If there's a Heart of Winter in Westeros connected to cold, dark and Others, where's the Heart of Summer connected to hot, fire and dragons in Westeros? This might be why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Starks from the first have been portrayed as icy. Ned runs cold, he gets hot easily. Moreover, in their weirwood grove, all the trees are described as Watchers, sentinels as soldiers,etc. Starks often guard against Others outside their walls by sending boys to the Watch, but might their real and oldest purpose have been to guard against the source of fire magic in Westeros, the hot springs heated by a molten core of fire inside their walls? Jon's three elemental blood as sacrifice at the true hearts of three kinds of elemental magic? If the Others and Valyrians are still magically connected, by blood and magic, to those 'hearts', where imo they were branched off into separate entities to begin with, might we not have a transformation in THEIR bloodlines, not Jon's, if such a sacrifice were to take place? In fact, it would be very much like Jon wighting them, but not just with one magic, like the wights or Beric, but with three - bring them back transformed by earth, Ice, fire - balanced in the blood. So no spacecraft but another magical version of science. Nuclear fusion. I think maybe. It would either kill all Others and Targs, or transform them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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