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The Map Guy

R+L=J&M [Part II] - The Gods' Plan

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Part I - Must read first before continuing

Hey everyone, I'm that crazy map guy again. Hopefully everyone have digested a little R+L=J&M by now, whether you believe it or not.

I did my best to be convincing in the last R+L=J&M thread. But with this thread I will let my imagination run a bit wild. Feel free to disagree. I want to present a sub-theory for R+L=J&M. I'm not 100% sure if it will pan out in the books, but I think you guys may enjoy reading it.

The Gods' Plan:
ASOIAF is GRRM's fantasy world to shape: GRRM is God here. He can create life, he can bring death. But are there any guarantees after death in fantasy? Or in real life? Well of course...if we have a family, our blood will continue through them and who ever is after that. Our descendants are somewhat "reborn-ed" versions of ourselves.

And with the power of God, a family's lineage can also be manipulated. Think of it like this: if any of our grandparents or great-grandparents or great-greats conceived with someone else, would we be alive today? What if this was God's Plan or the Gods' Plan: our ancestors meeting each other so we, ourselves, can exist.

Now, what type of family lineage is probably more fun to play God with? A royal family. Whats another way of saying 'Playing God' with a royal family? A Game of Thrones

So what are the Gods' plans in ASOIAF?
I am not being rhetorical here, I seriously don't know.
Perhaps the Gods' Plan is something cruel.
But if I had to guess, R'hllor and the Old Gods are assisting men with the war against the Others.

How does R'hllor and the Old Gods help? By playing a Game of Thrones
My theory is that they help by manipulating a certain royal lineage over multiple generations until the right hero(es) come into the world...until Azor Ahai, reborn-ing in between generations, makes the descendant Lightbringer.

Azor Ahai = the Targaryen royal lineage through multiple generations
Lightbringer = the Princes/Princesses that were Promised at the end of the royal lineage manipulation = the Song of Ice & Fire = the human-weapon to fight the Others

Tampering for Lightbringer:
It is said the Azor Ahai reborn comes from the bloodline of King Aerys II and Rhaella. We, as answers seekers, always look down: its Rhaegar, Daenerys, Jon Snow or Ser Pounce. But why can't we look upwards at the bloodline too? I am talking about Jaehaerys II and Shaera Targaryen. Their parents were Aegon V & Black Betha, who tried to play a game of thrones with their kids.

Before we begin, I want to note that Aegon V parents were Maekar I Targaryen and Dyanna Dayne. And now it begins.

The first time around, Azor Ahai tempers a sword in water and it broke.
The Targaryen royal lineage tampered with water, but the Gods realized the lineage cannot produce Lightbringer.
Jaehaerys II Targaryen chose to dishonor his betrothal to Celia Tully that was arranged by his parents, to marry his own sister Shaera Targaryen, and extends the Targaryen lineage for love. The Tullys' represent the Riverlands...Celia is the symbolic water that the Targaryen lineage avoided.

The second time around, Azor Ahai captures a lion and tempers the sword into the lion's heart and it broke.
The Targaryen royal lineage tampered with the lion, but the Gods realized the lineage cannot produce Lightbringer.
In the next generation after Jaehaerys II, Aerys II Targaryen has his son Rhaegar capture Cersei Lannister's heart when they were suppose to be betrothed. Then, Aerys II Targaryen chose to cancel that betrothal to spite Twyin Lannister. Cersei's heart and high hopes for Rhaegar's betrothal is the symbolic Lion's heart that the Targaryen lineage avoided.

The third time around, Azor Ahai knew what needs to be done and tempers the sword into the wife that he loves, Nissa Nissa. From this, Lightbringer will emerge.
The Targaryen royal lineage tampered with the sunspear, and it was too almost late. Azor Ahai needed a wife to love. The Old Gods knew this lineage was wrong and sent a gift to correct the lineage. This time, the Targaryen lineage needed Ice.
In the next generation after Aerys II, Rhaegar Targaryen is wed to Elia Martell for political reasons. Rhaegar was fond of Elia, but he does not love her as a wife. He later finds out that it not enough to fulfill the prophecy. He received a gift from the Old Gods: the Knight of the Laughing Tree. With this gift, Rhaegar knew what he needed to do. Rhaegar Targaryen chose to abandon his marriage (not betrothal) with Elia and abandon his own family ... all to cherished & love Lyanna Stark as his wife. But again, he knew what he needed to do. For love, he made her pregnant and she gives birth to LightBringer.

From the woman Prince Rhaegar truly loved, Lightbringer comes into the world as Jon & Meera, the Song of Ice and fire, the Prince & Princess that Were Promised in this Targaryen/Azor Ahai royal lineage, the human-weapon that would lead us through the Long Night once again. And all this happened at the Tower of Joy.

So the final version of Azor Ahai was the lineage of Rhaegar Targaryen & Lyanna Stark. Now it ends.


The Hidden Erotica in ACOK & ADWD:

The story of forging Lightbringer in Nissa Nissa is actually a sexual metaphor of conceiving Lightbringer.

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes" - Davos I ACOK

"In battle the blade burned fiery hot. Once Azor Ahai fought a monster. When he thrust the sword through the belly of the beast, its blood began to boil. Smoke and steam poured from its mouth, its eyes melted and dribbled down its cheeks, and its body burst into flame."  - Jon III ADWD

  • bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world = Lyanna takes off her clothes and Rhaegar tells her he loves her
  • Once Azor Ahai fought a monster = Rhaegar fought the she-wolf ... in bed 
  • Body burst into flame = orgasm

I'll let you readers fill out the rest of these two quotes with your sexual imagination. I got into trouble with the moderators by being too explicit line by line, a few months ago lol.


Lightning Bringer:
Jon & Meera were separated at birth after the Tower of Joy, but at Queenscrown Tower, they were almost re-united. It was the closest they ever got since birth.

Let us look at the neat imagery GRRM talks about in these two chapters: Bran III ASOS and Jon V ASOS, consecutive book chapters.

Remember Meera's introduction "At the foot of the halls, the doors open and a gust of cold air made the torches brighter for an instant" in Bran III ACOK?

So what happened when Jon & Meera are physically closer at the Queenscrown tower?
"Somewhere to the north a lightning bolt crackled across the sky, brightening the inside of the tower for an instant"

Lightning .... even brighter, louder, stronger, scarier than a single torch.

Jon & Meera as a duo...brought lightning. They will have god-like-powers, like Zeus in Greek mythology, the most powerful Greek god of all.


The Tower's Twin:
Meera is in the tower with her gang.
"The tower stood upon an island, its twin reflected on the still blue water"
Coincidentally, Jon happens to be on the other side of the same lake, doing some reflecting with Ygritte.

"When the wind blew, ripples moved across the surface of the lake, chasing one another like boys at play"

The steps of the hidden causeway the gang found to the Queenscrown "zigged & zagged", it was "treacherous."
I can picture ghosts taking these zig zag treacherous steps as if they were fighting each other.
This looks like the combat at TOJ. And when the gang got mostly underneath water, I guess that represented the combatants hitting the ground dead.


The Lonely Islands:
This island in the middle of the lake reminds me of the Isles of Faces sitting in the middle of the God's Eye.
GRRM kept reminding us there are no boats here.

In the past, Howland Reed had to carry his own boat from the Trident to the God's Eye so he can paddle it the Isle of Faces.
Even earlier in Jon's Chapter, one of the Wildlings mentioned how he wanted to visit the green men on the Isle of Faces...was this a foreshadowing attempt before the Wildlings arrive at the lake?


Remember this image for later:
Let's review the climatic imagery where Meera & Jon are close for the first time since TOJ:

  • Black clouds with lightning roaring above the tower, bringing bright lights to all the surroundings 'for an instant'
  • The Queenscrown has golden merlons on top so it looks like a Queen's Crown
  • The tower also reminds us of TOJ and the combat there
  • The tower sits lonely on an island in a lake, similar to the Isle of Faces sitting in the God's Eye

Lightning above the royal Tower of Joy, sitting in the middle of the God's Eye.

What does this mean? As Jon & Meera come closer to each other, do they bring more powerful light? And are the green men or the Old Gods involved? Were the events of TOJ their responsibility? Were they playing God from the God's Eye?


The Old Gods' Plan: Howl and Reed
Let's go back to the Tourney at Harrenhal. If Howland Reed never showed up, would there still be a Knight of the Laughing Tree to save and defend anyone?
If there was no KoLT: 

  • Rhaegar never needed to look for this mystery knight, and never had fell in love with Lyanna Stark
  • Lyanna would still be with Robert, so no Jon & Meera birth.
  • Brandon would still be with Catelyn, so no Robb, Sansa, Bran, Arya and Rickon.
  • The Targaryens may still be in power since Robert had nothing to rebel against.
  • If the Targaryens didn't die or leave Westeros, Dany would never have hatched dragons eggs in Essos.

So was this the Old Gods' Plan? Sending Howland Reed, their ambassador, off the Isle of Faces coincidentally during the Tourney at Harrenhal, and kick started the KoLT? Did the she-wolf howl at the Tournery, and Old Gods just watch all the consequences grow? It led to Robert's Rebellion, thousands of deaths...but more importantly, the birth of our heroes: Jon & Meera, Robb, Sansa, Bran the greenseer, Arya, Rickon...and even more importantly, the three dragons. I think so, this was the Plan all along.


Last Laugh Tree:
King Aerys said the shield of the KoLT was laughing at him. Were the Old Gods that represented the KoLT really laughing at him? KoLT made Rhaegar give up the marriage King Aerys set up for him with Elia to extend the Targaryen bloodline through a Martell. The KoLT also sparked the rebellion that killed King Aerys and force the remaining living Targaryens off the continent. Maybe the laughing tree sigil was laughing at him haha. The Old Gods got a cruel sense of humor with their plan.


Remembered that image from earlier?
In Part I, I came across the artwork coincidence in the 2014 TWOIAF. The three rear full-page artwork coincidentally showed "The Twins", Jon Snow, and the Trident...places and people that supported R+L=J&M theory. Now let us look at the front three full-page artwork of TWOIAF: I see Dragonstone (part of my theory too), I see a generic three heads of the dragon Targaryen sigil.........but now its going to get freaky again.

The third artwork is Storm's End....but take away the name, what does that artwork look like? I'll give you a hint: Jon trying to convince Ygritte that the guardtowers she sees south of the Wall are not castles. LOL sneaky GRRM.


Also, with the image of the golden merlons on the Queenscrown Tower...it looks like Dark Sister's hilt.


With the first three full page artwork and the last three full page artwork of the 2014 TWOIAF devoting to R+L=J&M, I think GRRM got his confidence back to write R+L=J&M for TWOW, and its going to be BIG...and you guys heard it first here.


Stealing from himself, for himself:
From this article on 11/13/2018, GRRM's Wild Cards series will be adapted for TV.

As I was reading the synopsis of this show, I came across this line:
"Called the Wild Card virus, it has passed down through generations, and can go undetected until suddenly activated by a traumatic event — at which point the carrier is either killed, mutated or granted god-like powers."




Edited by The Map Guy
I want to dedicate this post to my grandfather, rest in peace. You were blessed for having such a large lineage. My father, myself, my 1 year old son EJ are grateful. Your whole family is grateful. We love you. Your blood lives on. God's Plan

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So you directed me here to prepare for the top secret theory release.


I definitely appreciate the work you put in to this theory (it's certainly more than I've ever done), but I'm struggling to take it on board.


I think a big issue with theories on here in general (and I've been here for a while now, even if I'm somewhat reticent - read: too lazy to sign in and post), is that it's easy to favour certain "evidence" whilst ignoring that that doesn't fit the theory.


The amount of times I've read something and been convinced that it's spot-on, only for the next poster to say "well what about this..." and it falls apart (yeah, I'm that fickle).


I think R+L=J (no M) is still the most likely scenario, even if I may prefer it not to be, as there are plenty of hints there.  I also see Meera very much as a secondary, even tertiary character.


But I'm here because you said the big reveal of the parallels for AA and NN is an extension of this part of the theory.  Here's the thing, I don't think AA or any of the heroes of old exist.  I know this doesn't necessarily mean there can't be a real world parallel, but it certainly makes it less important for me.  In fact, while I can't deny the use of magic throughout the series, I am reluctant to believe there are any gods working behind the scenes.


I'm still very curious to see what you come up with.  And I thank you for taking the time to do so and giving me something to read (even if I don't really agree with your tactics of forming a Theoryguard to do so).  I hope to be proved wrong, but I don't see this having a substantial impact on my understanding of the material; we're just coming from different places.

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Going to re post what I said in the other Jon and Meera twins thread.

Meera and Jon do not look alike. Meera has green eyes, the same as Jojen. Do we learn of any Starks or Targaryens with green eyes? How possible is it that the daughter of Rhaegar and Lyanna would share the same physical features as Jojen if they are not related?

Don't you think Bran would have at least made some connection in his POV chapters? I'm not saying he has to say "boy, when Meera smiles she looks a little like Jon." Even when Bran compares Arya to Meera he lists no similarities in looks. He does think to compare them though, so if there was a time to make a connection it would have been then, or in the very least, Meera would have kept reminding Bran of Arya or Jon or even Ned  beyond his first meetings with her. In my opinion anyway. 

Jojen was so solemn that Old Nan called him "little grandfather," but Meera reminded Bran of his sister Arya. She wasn't scared to get dirty, and she could run and fight and throw as good as a boy. She was older than Arya, though; almost sixteen, a woman grown. -Bran ACoK

No similarities in looks or traits, just that Meera is trained in arts most noble boys are trained in, which Arya aspires to learn. Based on this this Arya and Meera have the same similarities with some of the women of Bear Island, Brienne or even some of the Sand Snakes. 

Twins don't have to look identical but they are more then likely going to look somewhat like either their siblings, father or mother. Jon has the Stark looks. Meera doesn't have the Starks looks(Lyanna) or the Tararyen looks(Rhaegar), however she does share features with Jojen, the same build and green eyes. So if Meera is a Stark or Targaryen then Jojen would qualify as well, him looking a couple years younger could be explained by his frail health slowing down his growth. Jojen is even sullen, like Jon Snow.

Edited by Ralphis Baratheon

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