BigFatCoward Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Those statistics have nothing to do with anything being discussed. Anywhere very low for immigration can have a huge increase in % with almost no meaningful change in numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 that's an interesting way of displaying change, so a 200% increase from a really low level verus say a small percentage increase in a really high level of immigration in say London. Doesn't this instead suggest that those areas where austerity had a big impact voted Leave mistaking immigration as being a problem rather than domestic policy? Who's going to do the work in Boston Lincs with all the EU citizens leaving....i fear they may find they've voted to inflict more pain on themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: Those statistics have nothing to do with anything being discussed. Anywhere very low for immigration can have a huge increase in % with almost no meaningful change in numbers. Its very relevant. Its about perception. If your community had very few immigrants and in a short space of time there are suddenly a bunch more appearing in your area, then the level of change feels very abrupt and hard to adapt to. One of the major problems is not that immigration occurs, its that it has been too fast and too badly managed. The expectation that throwing a whole new bunch of people into an area over night and expecting no pushback is wildly unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 But immigration being fast or badly managed won't be solved by leaving the EU, especially considering the immigration from outside the EU is higher than from inside the EU. perhaps the problem is domestic policy towards immigration? hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 If your area had 1 immigrant and then suddenly has 4, you still have no immigration. But a huge % increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, BigFatCoward said: If your area had 1 immigrant and then suddenly has 4, you still have no immigration. But a huge % increase. It obviously wasn't 4 people though was it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatCoward Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 1 minute ago, Heartofice said: It obviously wasn't 4 people though was it. My point was using a % increase to show a rise in immigration is extremely disengenious. Boston, which you quoted up thread, had the highest Brexit vote, has less than 20% of its population from immigration. Not all of this arrived at the same time, even if all of them rocked up in the last 10 years since the admission of the new countries to the EU, that is about 2% of the current population per year i.e. fuck all change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 15 minutes ago, BigFatCoward said: My point was using a % increase to show a rise in immigration is extremely disengenious. Boston, which you quoted up thread, had the highest Brexit vote, has less than 20% of its population from immigration. Not all of this arrived at the same time, even if all of them rocked up in the last 10 years since the admission of the new countries to the EU, that is about 2% of the current population per year i.e. fuck all change. But if your population was 1% foreign born and within less than a decade becomes 10%, that is still perceived to be a large and rapid change. If you have rapid change, with the fear of an even greater number arriving in the future, with seemingly no viable way to halt or even slow the numbers, then its little wonder people would tend to react in the way they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derfel Cadarn Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 The alternative to immigration would be thr government offering VERY attractive parental leave pay, better child allowance, but I don't see that happening. And giving free and fully bursaried further education for nursing and medical students (with sufficient NHS resources to lower stress/attrition). But I don't see that happening either. I also don't see the EU making any great effort post-brexit to stop illegal immigrants reaching the UK. A win/win for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said: The alternative to immigration would be thr government offering VERY attractive parental leave pay, better child allowance, but I don't see that happening. And giving free and fully bursaried further education for nursing and medical students (with sufficient NHS resources to lower stress/attrition). But I don't see that happening either. I also don't see the EU making any great effort post-brexit to stop illegal immigrants reaching the UK. A win/win for them. Might be a bit of a pipe dream, but a potential future of automation could cause much higher levels of growth from a smaller percentage of the population. Comes with its own problems of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 45 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Might be a bit of a pipe dream, but a potential future of automation could cause much higher levels of growth from a smaller percentage of the population. Comes with its own problems of course. I'm not sure i follow your dream? you want higher population growth from a subset population? Which one? And how will brexit get you this dream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 9 minutes ago, Nevarfeather said: I'm not sure i follow your dream? you want higher population growth from a subset population? Which one? And how will brexit get you this dream? Sorry I meant GDP growth from from automation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 One side of the mouth: Stop calling Leavers racists and xenophobic. Other side: Immigration is a huge problem and it’s mainly why we voted to leave. Lovely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: One side of the mouth: Stop calling Leavers racists and xenophobic. Other side: Immigration is a huge problem and it’s mainly why we voted to leave. Lovely. Please explain. Why is an opposition to large scale immigration automatically racist or xenophobic. I'm challenging your assumption that it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 13 minutes ago, Heartofice said: Please explain. Why is an opposition to large scale immigration automatically racist or xenophobic. I'm challenging your assumption that it is. Not all people who oppose immigration are racists or xenophobes, but practically every racist and xenophobe opposes immigration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 22 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Not all people who oppose immigration are racists or xenophobes, but practically every racist and xenophobe opposes immigration. Not really a good answer. If you are in the Ku Klux Klan, you wear a funny pointed hat; bishops wear funny pointed hats; so bishops are in the KKK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevarfeather Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Could you give us an example of some people who are opposed to immigration who are not racist or xenophobic? Someone who has evidence based clear cold reasoning against immigration that doesn't bleed into a 'foreigners make me uncomfortable' - i'd honestly like to meet someone like that. As an immigrant, speaking from personal experience. I haven't met one anti-immigration opinion that isn't routed in either falsehood, stoked-fear, racism or xenophobia yet. But I look forward to that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Horse Named Stranger Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 7 hours ago, SeanF said: My point is more that there is not an endless supply of biddable workers that will keep coming from Southern and Eastern Europe. Countries like Poland, the Baltic States, Italy, Spain have lower birthrates than our own, which means that this supply will dry up, unless their economies collapse, which none of us would want to see happen. As to your final paragraph, the way to fund an ageing population is indeed by extending peoples' working lives, and by boosting productivity. We've managed to do it since the Industrial Revolution began. Industrial revolution had an abundance of young folks, though. Anyway, you are aware, that your are talking about an retirement of well above 70? That might be an option for the white collar jobs, but for certain blue collar jobs not so much. Moving on. The correlation between low percentage of leave voters in high places with a high percentage of migrants is hardly suprising. A bit simplified, when you are living next door to Johnny Foreigner, he is simply less scary. And you end up viewing him as an actual human being. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Chatywin et al. Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Heartofice said: Not really a good answer. If you are in the Ku Klux Klan, you wear a funny pointed hat; bishops wear funny pointed hats; so bishops are in the KKK. Honestly, did you think, as you were typing and then posting this, that you were making an intelligent point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heartofice Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 3 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said: Honestly, did you think, as you were typing and then posting this, that you were making an intelligent point? Honestly it was far more than your response even deserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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