Heresy 215 - Hammering Out the Timeline

[Melifeather]

Regarding Jorah being too old to be a squire:

Some squires choose to never become a knight, and live the rest of their lives as squires. This may be because the individual does not have the inclination to live a knight's martial lifestyle, or does not have the funds to properly equip himself.[4] According to George R. R. Martin; 

We tend to think of squires as teenaged boys, knights in training, but that is only part of the truth. Historically, there were many men who spent their entire lives as squires, and never became knights. It was quite common to have thirty- and forty-year-old squires, even some in their fifties. Such men perhaps did not have the wealth to become knights (knights had to pay for their own equipment), or perhaps did not have the inclination. They were the medieval counterparts of the career army sergeant who has no desire to be promoted to lieutenant, let alone general.

[JNR]

6 hours ago, SirArthur said:

It's like that long idea someone posted today as a response, where Jon's name is Aegon Targaryen in his opinion, but it is never adressed how and why he should have a Targ family name

Har.  I think I saw that same post and chuckled reading it -- a good example of how different people just read these books in wildly different ways.

That poster, if we're thinking of the same one, quoted Pyp here:

Quote

Samwell Tarly nodded. "I … if you want, you can call me Sam. My mother calls me Sam."

"You can call him Lord Snow," Pyp said as he came up to join them. "You don't want to know what his mother calls him."

Is the boldfaced a Secret Clue being sent to us from GRRM through Pyp?

Not to me; I think Pyp never even heard of Jon or his mother before Castle Black.  Therefore, Pyp has absolutely zero authority to say anything about Jon's mother, and Pyp knows that in the above passage, too.  He is only making a little joke that Jon's mother calls him something insulting, like "you lazy jackass" or similar.  There's no secret clue there.

As for the idea Jon has a Targ name, that discussion seems a tad premature since we can't even prove Rhaegar and Lyanna ever said two words to each other, spent thirty seconds alone together, etc.

[JNR]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

this also reminds me that no matter how close of friends that Ned and Robert where, they ended up being very different people, in ideals and thoughts. Robert was not bothered by the Lannister sack or the brutal deaths of Rhaegar's children, or allowed himself to forget he was bothered by it, while Ned never forgot that feeling and has carried it with him for years

I think that's all spot-on.  And you can tell from the adverb "patiently" that Ned has run into this situation with Robert before.  He is unsurprised to find Robert telling himself a tale that is not true.

[Melifeather]

17 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

But this is why I say Tywin was taking a pragmatic approach. If Rhaegar wins, and Aerys is removed via great council, Tywin still has inroads--he can be Hand again, and Elia's sickly nature creates further opportunities. Tywin staying semi-neutral aligns with pragmatism and playing both sides, but aligns less well with a scenario where he is very specifically trying to craft a plan that ends with Robert as king and Cersei as queen.

In the latter scenario, Tywin needs all sorts of things to go exactly right--not only does he abduct Lyanna, but Rhaegar conveniently disappears for months around the same time, does nothing to reassure his allies, his forces don't win at the Trident, all while a somewhat reckless Robert Baratheon manages to make it through the whole thing without getting himself killed (even if his forces win).

There's also the timeline of Lyanna's death as an added wrinkle; Lyanna has to live long enough after the Sack for Eddard and Robert to have a falling out, for Eddard to travel south and fight the final battles of the war, and then travel to wherever it is that Lyanna was held to be present for her death.

The only break Tywin gets is Lyanna’s crowning. Tywin would have sent Gregor out to raid regardless if Rhaegar had left or not. He sent Gregor out when Ned was Hand. Someone injured Lyanna during the Sack and Ned found her in the black cells after his argument with Robert. They reconciled before he left to lift the siege.

To get a sense of Tywin’s behind the scene mechanations all you have to do is review the letter writing and negotiations that led to the Red Wedding.

[Melifeather]

I also want to point out that Rickard died, roasting inside his armor, so he must have become a knight. It’s not something a Northman would typically wear. A Northman might wear chainmail with boiled leather and fur, but a suit of plated armor is an Andal thing associated with knights, and knights are associated with the Faith.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Bronn is looked down upon by everybody except for Tyrion. He's offered a pregnant Lollys who has no idea who the father of her child is, because she was raped. If he inspired admiration he wouldn't be offered such a soiled gift.

Eesh! I think it's a bit harsh to say that "everybody" looks down on Bronn, and incorrect. I would bet that several people might admire him for bettering his station in life. Lollys was also offered to Tyrion after her unfortunate rape. Tyrion is also admired by some and looked down on by others. So what? It's pure snobbery to look down on Lollys for the situation of her rape and pregnancy. Perhaps Bronn is a bit of a hero in this situation, for giving her his name, even if it is the name of an upjumped sellsword!!! Either way, with being a knight, I doubt that Bronn would have been allowed to marry Lollys, so by becoming a knight, no matter his path, has given him a wife with land and money, and it has given Lollys a husband, something she didn't have even before her rape and pregnancy, since she was noted to be in her thirties and unmarried at the start of our story.

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

What does being a lord have to do with becoming a knight? The king can make anyone a lord, and he can make anyone a knight, but if the knight didn't go through the proper training and doesn't have the reputation behind it, nobody is going to respect him.

I don't know if respect has anything to do with being a knight. Maybe that is where were are not agreeing. There are plainly many ways to become a knight, as outlined multiple times by multiple ways in the story that GRRM has written. I am saying it doesn't matter how you become a knight, the only thing that matters is that you are a knight. Ser is a title of honor, just like Lord. 

Gregor Clegane probably served as a squire before becoming a knight, he trained in the ways of war under a lord, he was knighted by a prince, he might have even said vows in a sept. Does that make him a respected knight? Is he to be more respected than Davos or Bronn? 

This story is telling us there are many ways to become a knight, just as there are many ways of becoming a lord. There are also many ways to built a house, but does it make it a better house or home, whether it's built of stone or wood or straw? It's still a home to whom ever lives there.

There might be a more normal path, but that doesn't mean the short cut doesn't still get you to the same location.

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

But we do know the process for knighthood! It has been described in the books.

That is one process or path, but it's not the only process or path!

Quote

"Different roads sometimes lead to the same castle." AGOT-Jon II

So, different paths to knighthood still lead to knighthood!

And as Thoros tells Brienne about knights...

Quote

"We were king's men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady." AFFC-Brienne VIII

And not all knights are good people, no matter the path one takes to knighthood!

I don't think GRRM is giving us a step by step list for how to become a knight, or how to become a good or bad person, or even how to be a respected or reviled person. Different steps can lead to the same achievement, and different achievements can be paved in a thousand shades of grey! GRRM isn't telling us a simple story, he is telling a complicated story. A simple story might be take step a, b and c to knighthood, a complicated story might be step x, then b, then f. while skipping a and c along the way.

I can see we don't agree on this, and that is totally fine. As you said up thread, consensus isn't a requirement of any discussion here. 

 

*ETA-Because I didn't read onto the next page

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Regarding Jorah being too old to be a squire:

Some squires choose to never become a knight, and live the rest of their lives as squires. This may be because the individual does not have the inclination to live a knight's martial lifestyle, or does not have the funds to properly equip himself.[4] According to George R. R. Martin; 

We tend to think of squires as teenaged boys, knights in training, but that is only part of the truth. Historically, there were many men who spent their entire lives as squires, and never became knights. It was quite common to have thirty- and forty-year-old squires, even some in their fifties. Such men perhaps did not have the wealth to become knights (knights had to pay for their own equipment), or perhaps did not have the inclination. They were the medieval counterparts of the career army sergeant who has no desire to be promoted to lieutenant, let alone general.

This quote was in response to a question about Barristan who was pretending to be an old man serving as a squire to Strong Belwas, and GRRM is establishing the possibility of some such thing being possible, which he does a nice job off.

However, does this really seem to fit Jorah? He obviously has a martial inclination at his age, because he is a warrior who fights in tourney's as well as wars. He also is the Lord of Bear Island, and while the Mormont's are not wealthy, they are not pauper's either, and if Jorah can equip himself to ride and fight in tourney's then he has the ability to become a knight if he chooses, and he certainly has the ability to move beyond a squires status and job. He was the Lord of castle, he ruled a whole area of the north, he tells us himself that his status himself.

Quote

Ser Jorah nodded. "By then my father had taken the black, so I was Lord of Bear Island in my own right. I had no lack of marriage offers, but before I could reach a decision Lord Balon Greyjoy rose in rebellion against the Usurper, and Ned Stark called his banners to help his friend Robert. The final battle was on Pyke. When Robert's stonethrowers opened a breach in King Balon's wall, a priest from Myr was the first man through, but I was not far behind. For that I won my knighthood. ACOK-Daenerys I

He was a Lord of house and castle, he had multiple marriage offers which means he was rather eligible and it was his decision to make, therefore he has power over himself as well as his people and his bride to be, and he was a warrior already who answered Ned Stark's call to battle. He tells us he was brave enough to be one of the first men through the breach at Pyke. Another interesting thing about Jorah's statement is not him saying that he earned his knighthood, as you seem to think is a requirement, but that he won his knighthoot. Earn and won are two different things. I have no doubt that Jorah could have become a knight at any time he wanted if he chose, something happened either at Pyke or at the Tourney to honor the victory at Pyke that was different. I think it was Lynesse that changed Jorah, not a lifelong goal of knighthood. 

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The only break Tywin gets is Lyanna’s crowning.

I would have to disagree. Rhaegar going missing for a prolonged period at the exact same time as he has been falsely accused of Lyanna's abduction (making the two events, to the realm, appear related), apparently failing to defend his honor upon his return, Robert not dying at the Trident, Lyanna not spilling the beans to Eddard - or, alternately, Eddard not laying out the truth to Robert - are all areas where things could have easily gone disastrously wrong for Tywin.
 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Someone injured Lyanna during the Sack and Ned found her in the black cells after his argument with Robert. They reconciled before he left to lift the siege.

That isn't the way Eddard frames it:

Quote

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragonspawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

To reiterate, I have complicated feelings here; I actually think what you propose is more interesting than any of the motives Rhaegar would ostensibly have for disappearing with Lyanna, and I like the premise for how Rhaegar would be framed--that Tywin himself isn't keeping Lyanna, her fate is technically in Aerys' (crazy and unpredictable) hands and Tywin has plausible distance. There's a lot I like subjectively, it's just that I'm not sure it's the best fit for the text we have to draw upon thus far; I guess we'll have to see if the potential represented by Connington's POVs pays off.

[St Daga]

 

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I also want to point out that Rickard died, roasting inside his armor, so he must have become a knight. It’s not something a Northman would typically wear. A Northman might wear chainmail with boiled leather and fur, but a suit of plated armor is an Andal thing associated with knights, and knights are associated with the Faith.

I don't think that is correct. I think all warriors wear armor if they can, northman included!

 

Quote

They met in the lower bailey of Riverrun. When Brandon saw that Petyr wore only helm and breastplate and mail, he took off most of his armor. Petyr had begged her for a favor he might wear, but she had turned him away. Her lord father promised her to Brandon Stark, and so it was to him that she gave her token, a pale blue handscarf she had embroidered with the leaping trout of Riverrun. As she pressed it into his hand, she pleaded with him. "He is only a foolish boy, but I have loved him like a brother. It would grieve me to see him die." And her betrothed looked at her with the cool grey eyes of a Stark and promised to spare the boy who loved her. AGOT-Catelyn VII

Brandon Stark was fully armored for his duel with Petyr Baelish, and he took much of it off before the duel started. We have no reason to think that Brandon didn't follow the old gods or was a knight, and gosh knows Barbrey Dustin thinks Brandon Stark was a great example of a northman. 

 

Quote

Back at Winterfell, they had eaten in the Great Hall almost half the time. Her father used to say that a lord needed to eat with his men, if he hoped to keep them. "Know the men who follow you," she heard him tell Robb once, "and let them know you. Don't ask your men to die for a stranger." At Winterfell, he always had an extra seat set at his own table, and every day a different man would be asked to join him. One night it would be Vayon Poole, and the talk would be coppers and bread stores and servants. The next time it would be Mikken, and her father would listen to him go on about armor and swords and how hot a forge should be and the best way to temper steel. Another day it might be Hullen with his endless horse talk, or Septon Chayle from the library, or Jory, or Ser Rodrik, or even Old Nan with her stories. AGOT-Arya II

Mikken, the Winterfell blacksmith makes armor and talks to Ned about it.

 

Quote

 

"My lord father has sent me to greet you, and inquire as to who leads this mighty host."

 

"I do." Robb spurred his horse forward. He was in his armor, with the direwolf shield of Winterfell strapped to his saddle and Grey Wind padding by his side.  AGOT-Catelyn IX

 

Robb is in his armor, dressed to met the Frey's of the Crossing.

 

Quote

If Robb was frightened, he gave no sign of it. Catelyn watched her son as he moved among the men, touching one on the shoulder, sharing a jest with another, helping a third to gentle an anxious horse. His armor clinked softly when he moved. Only his head was bare. Catelyn watched a breeze stir his auburn hair, so like her own, and wondered when her son had grown so big. Fifteen, and near as tall as she was. AGOT-Catelyn X

Robb in his armor, at the Battle of the Whispering Wood.

 

Quote

For near a fortnight there had been so many comings and goings that Robb ordered both portcullises kept up and the drawbridge down between them, even in the dead of night. A long column of armored lancers was crossing the moat between the walls when Bran emerged from the tower; Karstark men, following their lords into the castle. They wore black iron halfhelms and black woolen cloaks patterned with the white sunburst. AGOT-Bran VI

Karstark men in armor. I don't think there is any argument that the Karstark's are northmen who follow the old gods but are still smart enough to wear armor into battle if they have the means to make or afford it.

 

Quote

A man in dark armor and a pale pink cloak spotted with blood stepped up to Robb. "Jaime Lannister sends his regards." He thrust his longsword through her son's heart, and twisted. ASOS-Catelyn VII

Probably Roose, but even if we can argue that man wasn't Roose, it was a man of the Dreadfort in armor, murdering Robb Stark.

 

Quote

 

The northmen followed hard behind the van, their tattered banners streaming in the wind. Reek watched them pass. Most were afoot, and there were so few of them. He remembered the great host that marched south with Young Wolf, beneath the direwolf of Winterfell. Twenty thousand swords and spears had gone off to war with Robb, or near enough to make no matter, but only two in ten were coming back, and most of those were Dreadfort men.

 

Back where the press was thickest at the center of the column rode a man armored in dark grey plate over a quilted tunic of blood-red leather. His rondels were wrought in the shape of human heads, with open mouths that shrieked in agony. From his shoulders streamed a pink woolen cloak embroidered with droplets of blood. Long streamers of red silk fluttered from the top of his closed helm. No crannogman will slay Roose Bolton with a poisoned arrow, Reek thought when he first saw him. An enclosed wagon groaned along behind him, drawn by six heavy draft horses and defended by crossbowmen, front and rear. Curtains of dark blue velvet concealed the wagon's occupants from watching eyes. ADWD-Reek II

 

 

 

Even thought this isn't actually Roose in the armor, it's a man wearing armor made for attackers to think it's Roose under that armor. And Roose is about as old gods ways of the north and opposed to the Faith as we can get in our story.

 

Quote

"I would not," Grenn insisted. "I'd run away faster than you." He stopped suddenly, scowling when he saw Pyp's grin and realized what he'd just said. His thick neck flushed a dark red. Jon left them there arguing as he returned to the armory, hung up his sword, and stripped off his battered armor. AGOT-Jon IV

Jon in armor for practice.

 

 

Quote

 

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

 

Every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; Snow and Stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of Winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. They were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. "I'm Prince Aemon the Dragonknight," Jon would call out, and Robb would shout back, "Well, I'm Florian the Fool." Or Robb would say, "I'm the Young Dragon," and Jon would reply, "I'm Ser Ryam Redwyne."

 

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." ASOS-Jon XII

 

 

 

Jon Snow in armor, mail and plate, while thinking back to training in faux armor with wooden swords with Robb as children. Jon wears armor and helm when practicing on multiple occasions. Jon is heavily representing the north and the old gods in this story. 

 

There are plenty of examples of men of the north wearing armor. I just tried to show a few. I think most warriors will wear armor if they have it, can afford it, can steal it or can take it off a dead body. Armor will protect a man (or woman) in battle. If you are protected, your odds of survival are better, your odds of winning are better. It shouldn't matter where you live in the Seven Kingdoms or what gods you worship, armor gives you the advantage of protection in battle. 

 

[asongofheresy]

I don't know if we are still discussing timelines but after last heresy thread I tried to plan a possible timeline if Rhaella and Aerys happen to conceive a child after burning of Brandon and Rickard + using Daenerys quote about quickening. According to the link in spoiler quickening might begin between 13-16 weeks and we know the time between flee of Rhaella and Viserys and sack of KL is two weeks as Jaime says. 

Spoiler

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://americanpregnancy.org/while-pregnant/first-fetal-movement/&ved=2ahUKEwiMqfij68TfAhVOqYsKHYzOCL0QFjAQegQIBhAJ&usg=AOvVaw0qWWqVgog8dUyVIvdngdAY

• Burning of Brandon & Rickard + Rhaella conceives 

• Aerys calls for heads of Robert and Ned

• Jon Arryn defies the King and calls the banners 

• Ned and Robert's journeys to North and Stormlands to gather their troops 

• Gulltown is loyalist so first battle I'd fought there? (Is it possible only Arryn troops were present at that battle?) 

• Battles at Summerhall

• Battle of Ashford

• Battle of the Bells + Connington is exiled 

• Chelsted as Hand + his burning, Aerys rapes Rhaella as Darry and Jaime listen 

• the Trident - Targaryen side defeated

• Fleeof Viserys and Rhaella to Dragonstone 

» 13-16 weeks into Rhaella's pregnancy as Daenerys says she was quickening at her mother's womb 

• 2 weeks between the Trident and Sack of KL + Rosart is Hand 

• Sack of KL + Rosart and Aerys are killed by Jaime 

• Ned Stark arrives later than Lannisters

• Robert is healed and arrives to KL to claim the Iron Throne + fight between Ned and Robert over deaths of Elia and her children

» Rhaella is 15-17 weeks pregnant 

• Ned goes to Storm's End to lift the siege 

• Ned goes to tower of joy to find Lyanna**

• Ned later goes to Starfall to return Dawn to Ashara*** + she commits suicide??

• Stannis is rebuilding the royal flee to attack Dragonstone

» after Sack of KL Rhaella and Viserys spends 25 - 22 weeks at Dragonstone before Stannis' attack and gave births to Daenerys* since a normal pregnancy lasts for 280 days according to Google [ I never gave birth myself so can't talk from experience]

• Ser Willem Darry and Viserys ran away to Essos(Braavos?) with the baby (Daenerys) before Stannis' arrival 

› I keep pointing out Stannis' arrival to Dragonstone since he says Ser Willem Darry smugled Viserys and baby before his arrival 

* Maybe Rhaella didn't have birth to Daenerys so debatable

** ToJ is debatable 

*** Causes of Ashara's suicide is debatable + she might not jump according to SSM from George + all comments about her giving birth to a stillborn daughter/alive daughter or son are mere rumors 

Do you guys think my "calculations" make any sense? And is this timeline possible when you consider the travel times of the armies? I would love to hear about your ideas or if I made some mistakes that you can fix

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Now, these thoughts don't specify the abduction (or "running off," if one wants to view Rhaegar more generously), so maybe there's some wiggle room here as to what Kevan believes Rhaegar did, but I think the surrounding context - particularly referencing all of the deaths, and Lyanna's specifically - is suggestive that he's thinking about more than just Lyanna being crowned at Harrenhal.

It is part of GRRM's epilogue (a section or speech at the end of a book or play that serves as a comment on or a conclusion to what has happened), which gives it more weight in my mind. 

[Melifeather]

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

And not all knights are good people, no matter the path one takes to knighthood!

I don't think GRRM is giving us a step by step list for how to become a knight, or how to become a good or bad person, or even how to be a respected or reviled person. Different steps can lead to the same achievement, and different achievements can be paved in a thousand shades of grey! GRRM isn't telling us a simple story, he is telling a complicated story. A simple story might be take step a, b and c to knighthood, a complicated story might be step x, then b, then f. while skipping a and c along the way.

I agree that GRRM is demonstrating that knights could be really terrible, justifying unspeakable horrors under a guise of honor. He also has given us examples of ruthless men like Sandor and Jaime who end up redeeming themselves. 

11 hours ago, St Daga said:

Brandon Stark was fully armored for his duel with Petyr Baelish, and he took much of it off before the duel started. We have no reason to think that Brandon didn't follow the old gods or was a knight, and gosh knows Barbrey Dustin thinks Brandon Stark was a great example of a northman. 

 

Most of the examples you've provided were all Starks or men of Winterfell, and I'm not denying Rickard was the only one. I believe Rickard was influenced by Maester Walys to bring knighthood and martial training to Winterfell. This is the southron ambitions Lady Barbary is referring to. The northmen are First Men and their culture was akin to the vikings, but Rickard implemented a lot of changes that Ned continued, like training the men in the martial skills of knights, and providing plated armor once they earned their spurs.

11 hours ago, St Daga said:

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

 

I think you've read the above passage incorrectly, because Jon's memory is of wearing quilted leather in place of mail and plate. He's remembering his training as a squire when he hadn't yet earned his knighthood.

12 hours ago, St Daga said:

He was a Lord of house and castle, he had multiple marriage offers which means he was rather eligible and it was his decision to make, therefore he has power over himself as well as his people and his bride to be, and he was a warrior already who answered Ned Stark's call to battle. He tells us he was brave enough to be one of the first men through the breach at Pyke. Another interesting thing about Jorah's statement is not him saying that he earned his knighthood, as you seem to think is a requirement, but that he won his knighthoot. Earn and won are two different things. I have no doubt that Jorah could have become a knight at any time he wanted if he chose, something happened either at Pyke or at the Tourney to honor the victory at Pyke that was different. I think it was Lynesse that changed Jorah, not a lifelong goal of knighthood. 

You have to be a knight before you can compete in any tourneys, so Jorah wouldn't have participated in any tourneys until after the battle at Pyke and after he was knighted.

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I would have to disagree. Rhaegar going missing for a prolonged period at the exact same time as he has been falsely accused of Lyanna's abduction (making the two events, to the realm, appear related), apparently failing to defend his honor upon his return, Robert not dying at the Trident, Lyanna not spilling the beans to Eddard - or, alternately, Eddard not laying out the truth to Robert - are all areas where things could have easily gone disastrously wrong for Tywin.

When Ned was Hand there were reports of raiders - of men without banners - but someone recognized Gregor Clegane, so Ned sent out Beric with a small detachment to deal with the raiders. I propose the same thing occurred prior to the Rebellion. Tywin sent out raiders with banners costumed to look like Rhaegar and his men, with the purpose of undermining support for the coup. He would have continued these raids whether he knew Rhaegar was gone or whether he had remained in Kings Landing. At that point, Tywin was back at Casterly Rock plotting. But, it just so happens that he was gone, so when Brandon rode to Kings Landing to accuse Rhaegar, King Aerys knew it could not have been Rhaegar! But he probably knew he held Lyanna in the black cells. 

When Ned and his family were traveling to Kings Landing and the incident between Arya and Joffrey occurred, Tywin's men found Arya first and brought her to the king. When Nymeria couldn't be found and Cersei offered gold for her pelt, and told Robert he should be able to lay a wolf pelt on her bed by evening. Robert said that's a fine trick without a wolf, and Cersei says, "We have a wolf", meaning Arya. I think this scene is a parallel to how the Lannisters captured Lyanna, and Nymeria symbolizes either the Knight of the Laughing Tree or a valuable highborn maiden that could be used to conceive dragonseed.

I do think Lyanna spilled the beans and told all that she knew to Ned, but as I've pointed out Ned kept those secrets to himself, because Lyanna made him promise. I believe Jaime was sitting on the throne fully prepared to fight Ned Stark. Ned does try to tell Robert at one point, but Robert rode away before Ned could finish.

11 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

I can see how this would appear to be a sequence, and that it was wrong of me to assume Ned and Robert reconciled before Ned left to lift the siege, but I don't think I am wrong that Ned found Lyanna before he left. Have you read my theory about Maegor's Holdfast being the real tower of joy? Ned and his men encountered the three Kingsguard on his way to Maegor's Holdfast inside the Red Keep. They were guarding Elia and the children who were holed up inside the royal apartments. Ned tore that tower down looking for Lyanna much like Jaime scoured the Tower of the Hand looking for Tyrion. Ned found Lyanna after he saw Elia and her children butchered. If Ned indeed returned Arthur's sword to Starfall, he could have stopped at Kings Landing on the return home, the gap in time and the distance traveled could have cooled Ned's emotions as well as Roberts and they would have reconciled over talking about Lyanna.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Most of the examples you've provided were all Starks or men of Winterfell, and I'm not denying Rickard was the only one. I believe Rickard was influenced by Maester Walys to bring knighthood and martial training to Winterfell. This is the southron ambitions Lady Barbary is referring to. The northmen are First Men and their culture was akin to the vikings, but Rickard implemented a lot of changes that Ned continued, like training the men in the martial skills of knights, and providing plated armor once they earned their spurs.

The Karstark's (not just the family but armored spearman) and Roose Bolton are not Starks or men of Winterfell.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

13 hours ago, St Daga said:

And then the years were gone, and he was back at Winterfell once more, wearing a quilted leather coat in place of mail and plate. His sword was made of wood, and it was Robb who stood facing him, not Iron Emmett.

 

I think you've read the above passage incorrectly, because Jon's memory is of wearing quilted leather in place of mail and plate. He's remembering his training as a squire when he hadn't yet earned his knighthood.

First of all, are you saying Jon is a knight? Because I think that is a huge stretch to say. We never once hear him referred to as Ser Jon!

And Jon has just practiced fighting with Iron Emmett and he was wearing "mail and plate" for the practice, but suddenly his memory takes him back to Winterfell where he was a child practicing with Robb wearing quilted leather armor (same as we see Bran and Tommen early in Game) and using wooden swords instead of steal.

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

I agree that GRRM is demonstrating that knights could be really terrible, justifying unspeakable horrors under a guise of honor. He also has given us examples of ruthless men like Sandor and Jaime who end up redeeming themselves. 

Sandor is not a knight. It's a huge theme for his story!

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

You have to be a knight before you can compete in any tourneys, so Jorah wouldn't have participated in any tourneys until after the battle at Pyke and after he was knighted.

Where is this stated? I don't remember hearing any requirement in this story that a person needs to be a knight to compete in a tournament. Sandor Clegane is no knight and he is competing in the Hands Tourney right in front of King Robert. 

 

[Melifeather]

18 minutes ago, St Daga said:

The Karstark's (not just the family but armored spearman) and Roose Bolton are not Starks or men of Winterfell.

First of all, are you saying Jon is a knight? Because I think that is a huge stretch to say. We never once hear him referred to as Ser Jon!

And Jon has just practiced fighting with Iron Emmett and he was wearing "mail and plate" for the practice, but suddenly his memory takes him back to Winterfell where he was a child practicing with Robb wearing quilted leather armor (same as we see Bran and Tommen early in Game) and using wooden swords instead of steal.

Sandor is not a knight. It's a huge theme for his story!

Where is this stated? I don't remember hearing any requirement in this story that a person needs to be a knight to compete in a tournament. Sandor Clegane is no knight and he is competing in the Hands Tourney right in front of King Robert. 

 

You know, I’m beginning to think your goal is to simply be argumentative rather than to have a meaningful debate, because you keep picking at things I never said or intended.

Implementing the use of plated metal for protection does not a knight make. It just means you can afford to outfit your men with protective metal.

Sandor insists he’s not a knight, but he is a Kingsguard Knight. He despises the hypocrisy of the position.

I also didn’t say Jon was knighted. I said he was trained in the martial arts of a knight.

Have you read any of the Dunk and Egg novellas? When Dunk goes to register for his first tourney he has to prove he was knighted before they would allow him to compete. Sandor is a Kingsguard and is technically a knight whether he admits he is or not.

[St Daga]

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

• Burning of Brandon & Rickard + Rhaella conceives 

• Aerys calls for heads of Robert and Ned

• Jon Arryn defies the King and calls the banners 

• Ned and Robert's journeys to North and Stormlands to gather their troops 

• Gulltown is loyalist so first battle I'd fought there? (Is it possible only Arryn troops were present at that battle?) 

• Battles at Summerhall

• Battle of Ashford

• Battle of the Bells + Connington is exiled 

• Chelsted as Hand + his burning, Aerys rapes Rhaella as Darry and Jaime listen 

• the Trident - Targaryen side defeated

• Fleeof Viserys and Rhaella to Dragonstone 

» 13-16 weeks into Rhaella's pregnancy as Daenerys says she was quickening at her mother's womb 

• 2 weeks between the Trident and Sack of KL + Rosart is Hand 

• Sack of KL + Rosart and Aerys are killed by Jaime 

• Ned Stark arrives later than Lannisters

• Robert is healed and arrives to KL to claim the Iron Throne + fight between Ned and Robert over deaths of Elia and her children

» Rhaella is 15-17 weeks pregnant 

• Ned goes to Storm's End to lift the siege 

I think you have events laid out in a way that could work, but I question the time it takes Ned to travel north, call his banners, march an army south, compete in a war and march into Kings Landing. If we base Dany's conception on Rickard and Brandon's death, that gives us only 4 months for all of this to happen. And while it's possible, it doesn't fit the timeline that we know about the Siege of Storm's End lasting "around a year", since it started after Ashford, which happened sometime after Robert had already called his banners, fought in a couple battles and then fought in the Battle of Ashford. I have a hard time getting around that detail about the Siege of Storms End lasting around a year. Maybe 4 months can feel like a year when you are slowly starving to death?

Now, it's possible that the rebellion did happen this quickly, but the time it takes to march a large amount of fighting men, plus the baggage train that comes with them is the part that holds me up, so in this case, a later conception for Dany works a bit better. But that's just a personal opinion.

It seems like Ned arrived pretty quickly after the Lannister's, but then it seems like Ned stayed in KL until Robert arrived, but how long did it take for Robert to recuperate enough to travel after he was wounded at the Trident. Was he only hours behind Ned, days behind Ned, a week or two behind Ned? 

One thing about this timeline, it allows that Rhaella would not have sat around on Dragonstone waiting to have a baby for her entire pregancy, only about half of it, which does make more sense to me. I understand Stannis had to build fleet of some sort, but it's hard to imagine that Robert, who is not known for patience, would let Rhaella, Viserys and her fetus sit around in relative safety. So this aspect of the above timeline I think fit's better.

4 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

• Stannis is rebuilding the royal flee to attack Dragonstone

» after Sack of KL Rhaella and Viserys spends 25 - 22 weeks at Dragonstone before Stannis' attack and gave births to Daenerys* since a normal pregnancy lasts for 280 days according to Google [ I never gave birth myself so can't talk from experience]

• Ser Willem Darry and Viserys ran away to Essos(Braavos?) with the baby (Daenerys) before Stannis' arrival 

› I keep pointing out Stannis' arrival to Dragonstone since he says Ser Willem Darry smugled Viserys and baby before his arrival 

Something about reading this in the way that you have laid it out has made me consider who came to Dragonstone and smuggled Dany and Viserys out. Suddenly, I am wondering about Davos. Since I think this story is a series of repeating patterns from the past, and we have two incidents where Davos smuggles something into Storm's End (onions and Melisandre) maybe we should have two incidents with Davos smuggling something out of Dragonstone (Edric Snow, a kings bastard and ???). Prepare for tinfoil, but what if Davos was in charge of organizing the operation to smuggled Viserys and Dany out? He sails in, sneaks the kids onto a ship headed for Essos, and sends them oversee's with a group of men who have pledged to protect them. That is pretty much what we see with Edric Storm, except that Davos was already on Dragonstone to organize Edric's flight to Essos. If Davos did this, did he do it with Stannis' permission or against it? Some part of me thinks, each time I read Davos and Stannis' interaction after Edric had escaped, that Stannis somehow was unsurprised by Davos' actions! Davos is set to rescue Rickon, perhaps his theme is the rescuer of children over and over in this story?

[Melifeather]

Why would Davos, the smuggler that helped Stannis, flip sides and help the enemy?

[JNR]

Isn't it time for a new thread?

[St Daga]

6 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

You know, I’m beginning to think your goal is to simply be argumentative rather than to have a meaningful debate, because you keep picking at things I never said or intended.

No, I am just trying to base idea's on what the text gives us. The text never tells us that in general northman are trained to be knights, although they are trained to be warriors. Knighthood is something that comes with a title. We are given a few examples that differ from that, the Manderly's and Ser Rodrik Cassel, but it's not a general theme in the north. Up thread you claimed that armor was only something that trained "knights" would have and I disagree. Armor is something that trained warrior's have, not just knights.

 

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying, but you seemed to state that "armored men" from the north must be knights, and to be knights, they must have converted to the Faith of the Seven, and that is what I am questioning. Training to be a knight is no different than training to become a warrior, but the difference is in the wording, the eventual title that the knight carries.

9 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I know that Sandor is not a knight. He despises the hypocrisy of the position.

Have you read any of the Dunk and Egg novellas? When Dunk goes to register for his first tourney he has to prove he was knighted before they would allow him to compete.

I have not read Dunk and Egg, but I do believe there is some question about whether Dunk was truly ever knighted, or if he just claimed it was so. But I can't debate that fairly because I haven't had much interest in those texts.

The point about Sandor was that you stated that Jorah could not compete in a tourney until he was a knight, which does not seem to be the case, since we have an example at the Hand's Tourney, of Sander Clegane, who we agree is no knight, competing in a tourney. I was simply trying to clarify what is in the text. And per usual, there is vagueness from the author on small details like this.

24 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I also didn’t say Jon was knighted. I said he was trained in the martial arts of a knight.

Maybe this is where I am misunderstanding what you are saying. To me, a knight is a title that a warrior can receive, but it doesn't make him much different than any other warrior. Which I think is one of the points of Sandor Clegane's arc. He is a warrior, and he doesn't care to sugar coat that with a title of Ser or a pretense about being a "knight". A knight is simply a trained warrior with a title! 

You are saying Jon is trained to be a knight, which I see as a formality only, while I see Jon as being trained to be a warrior, a fighter who does not need to take vows in a sept and be called by the title Ser. It might just come down to semantics, and that is not worth disagreeing about.

I do get hung up on details, like words meanings. I just want to work what I know around what the text gives us, and certainly am not picking at anyone person in particular. It's just a clarification process.

[Tucu]

11 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Why would Davos, the smuggler that helped Stannis, flip sides and help the enemy?

Davos was a smallfolk/smuggler with no side; why he helped Stannis? Because he could sell worthless onions for a fortune.

GRRM explains this:

Quote

During Robert's rebellion, what brought a simple smuggler like Davos to take sides in the war by helping Stannis and the starving garrison at Storm's End?

(George laughs) Because he had onions! And so he thought to himself: "Where can I sell these at the best price? If I take them to King's Landing they'll pay me the price of onions, but i I take them to people duing of hunger they'd certainly pay me better."

 

[St Daga]

13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Why would Davos, the smuggler that helped Stannis, flip sides and help the enemy?

I know it doesn't make much sense, it was just a question? But we do have some precedent for Stannis arranging for Davos to use his smuggling knowledge and we also have precedent in the text for Davos to rescue a child who would no doubt have been killed if Davos had not intervened. It's probably nothing, but it just occurred to me that it's interesting that Dany and Viserys were snatched out of Dragonstone just in the nick of time, right before Stannis arrived with his new fleet, and Edric Storm was snatched away from Dragonstone just in the nick of time, right before Mel had convinced Stannis to let her have Edric for her flames. It's probably nothing at all!

[St Daga]

11 minutes ago, JNR said:

Isn't it time for a new thread?

I see one is open now, The Return of the Crow!