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Wolf of the Steppes

What is the Illyrio Barristan connection?

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7 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

A very good point beyond that he must have despised Varys in general and unlikely to accept his help. Yes there is an argument that he did so without knowing he was accepting the Spider's help, but this is a pretty decent indication that he made it to Illyrio on his own.  

The more ive been digging into it, its hardly even an argument. Spider spins that web man lol

Quote

"Was it Joffrey's wish to dismiss Ser Barristan Selmy from his Kingsguard too?"

Cersei sighed. "Joff wanted someone to blame for Robert's death. Varys suggested Ser Barristan. Why not? It gave Jaime command of the Kingsguard and a seat on the small council, and allowed Joff to throw a bone to his dog.

 

7 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

If so, another possibility would be that Varys did know where Barristan was and when/where he left.  Sailing for Pentos, Varys could have sent a message to Illyrio to be on the lookout and make sure he found his way there.

Im thinking maybe it might have been a face to face conversation, Illyrio is talking to Varys in Arya III and Barri gets dismissed before Arya V, so maybe...

Eta

5 not 4, probably not true then

Edited by Hugorfonics

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20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yea he was.

That's what he said, but that's not necessarily true - or rather, Doran Martell is in no way obligated to go through with this deal, especially since his son is already dead. Doran sent his son to win Daenerys' hand, he did not send him to Meereen to draw Dorne into a quarrel over the Free City of Pentos.

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Of course. If anything happens to Darrio or Jhogo (gods forbid) or Tats gets killed, Illyrios heart wont miss a beat, but if he succeeds then the game of Pentoshi Thrones, fat and tattered style, will start, with Selmy as the architect.

No, if Selmy himself were to bite the dust before Dany's return his deals would go away, too. As would things in a number of different circumstances.

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I guess, i remember reading your thesis on that about F&B, thats all legal and nice, but I dont remember Robb giving Vargo Harrenhall. Everything Tyrions currently doing is illegal, but he can still be technical.

Roose gave Vargo Harrenhal, not Robb, as far as I know. If Robb did it it would have been okay since he presumed to be a king. However, Hoat has no idea how lordships and those things work. He is a foreigner. He thinks being a lord is equivalent to own a castle.

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

He pretty much did. Tats wants Pentos, not most of Pentos, not the illusion of Pentos. 

How do you know that? Did you actually ask Tatters what he actually wants and why? Or do you know what Selmy actually intends to give him if he were in the position to give it to him.

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Now, like you say, Illyrio may be bffs with Tats and theyll get lit and go bowling together and such maybe even with Young Griff, but that's not my point. Selmy doesnt know Tats long term plan or reasons, but he knows he owes gratitude to Illyrio yet still supports his potential enemy in the matters of Pentos.

No, he intends to use Tatters and his guys to ensure the victory of his own/Dany's forces at Meereen. He is playing the short game, he doesn't care what happens next month or next year, and there is no reason to pretend that he cares. As soon as Dany is back he'll gladly give up the powers he took and go back to being a humble knight and bodyguard. He won't push anyone to uphold some deal he made with a sellsword or insist that because he did that they are obligated to go through with it.

20 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

There was a Pentoshi Master of Coins under Jahareys, he was murdered, didnt retire, but I assume he still had his house and family in Pentos. Its similar to Illyrio, fat man likes his water fountain, Red Keep aint that pretty. 

Rego Draz actually had his bastard sons in KL. He didn't have any legitimate children but three bastard sons who are under consideration to succeed him as Master of Coin.

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This topic raises a very nice question :)

Like Barri says to Dany in aDwD that he lived rough in KL to save his silver for boat fare and watched Neds execution before leaving. Firstly I really dont see Barri excelling in streetsmarts on any level. He should have been robbed in his sleep or pickpocketed or getting in fights and becoming a Fleabottom-legend if he lived rough for at least a couple of weeks, not just blend in and disappear like a faceless man...

Also he would have had to ask around at the harbour for his boat - and a lonesome, well spoken but ragged man looking for a ship to Pentos should not happen without the Spiders knowing. No doubt Varys knows that Barri thinks himself too honourable to consort with spiders and says or does nothing so as to not scare the good knight off.

But maybe Varys knew all along and actually made sure rough-Barri wasnt living too rough?

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10 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

mmmmm... It seems to me here that maybe Varys had nothing to do with Barristan finding Illyrio. If he heard the reports in the Small Council, maybe he set himself in that trip without the Spider intervention.

We still don't know when exactly Selmy actually boarded a ship. And the tale is pretty condensed there, and is lacking an ending - which would be his arrival in Pentos, his meeting with Illyrio, the news about Dany and the dragons, and his assignment to find her with Belwas and Groleo.

It also doesn't give us an explanation as to why and how he reached the conclusion to search for the true king. Was that just his defiance in reaction to the way Joffrey and his court had treated him? Could be. Could also be that Varys' people talked to him in the places he hung out - those pot shops he speaks of are Varys' lairs.

But did he leave KL before or after the news about Viserys III's death reached KL? We don't know.

The crucial thing I raised above is the question why Illyrio decided to use Selmy to bring back Dany rather than send him to Aegon.

And that, I think, only makes sense if Selmy only arrived in Pentos after Illyrio had already learned that the dragon eggs had hatched. 

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8 minutes ago, Sigella said:

But maybe Varys knew all along and actually made sure rough-Barri wasnt living too rough?

That is very likely. As I think I mentioned above, we already have implicit confirmation that Varys knew Selmy returned to the city due to the fact he reentered the city via the Gates of the Gods.

I think it is also not unlikely that the ship he took passage on was one of Illyrio's, and that this wasn't an accident.

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11 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Like Barri says to Dany in aDwD that he lived rough in KL to save his silver for boat fare and watched Neds execution before leaving. Firstly I really dont see Barri excelling in streetsmarts on any level. He should have been robbed in his sleep or pickpocketed or getting in fights and becoming a Fleabottom-legend if he lived rough for at least a couple of weeks, not just blend in and disappear like a faceless man...

Ok. But this is the same man that single-handedly rescued Aerys from the Dun Fort.  You don't think he could have made his way on to a ship? bah.  

Again, I'm not saying he didn't receive assistance knowing or unknowing from Varys, but that is why I find this subject so interesting.

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

But did he leave KL before or after the news about Viserys III's death reached KL? We don't know.

The crucial thing I raised above is the question why Illyrio decided to use Selmy to bring back Dany rather than send him to Aegon.

And that, I think, only makes sense if Selmy only arrived in Pentos after Illyrio had already learned that the dragon eggs had hatched. 

Completely agree with this....

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37 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Ok. But this is the same man that single-handedly rescued Aerys from the Dun Fort.  You don't think he could have made his way on to a ship? bah.  

Again, I'm not saying he didn't receive assistance knowing or unknowing from Varys, but that is why I find this subject so interesting.

Yes. Barristan is a hero who fights single combats and have amazing skills. Not someone that flies under the radar like a faceless man.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

That's what he said, but that's not necessarily true - or rather, Doran Martell is in no way obligated to go through with this deal, especially since his son is already dead. Doran sent his son to win Daenerys' hand, he did not send him to Meereen to draw Dorne into a quarrel over the Free City of Pentos.

Doran sent his son to perverse an old treaty/marriage contract, he must have given Frog leave to speak on behalf of Dorne to do it. After all, Viserys cant get married. It was all legal, 2 parchments with their princely seals and witnessed by Dornish knights.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, if Selmy himself were to bite the dust before Dany's return his deals would go away, too. As would things in a number of different circumstances.

Would it? Im not sure. But whatever, the sky may fall tomorrow but lets assume for this conversation that everything goes relatively smoothly

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Roose gave Vargo Harrenhal, not Robb, as far as I know. If Robb did it it would have been okay since he presumed to be a king. However, Hoat has no idea how lordships and those things work. He is a foreigner. He thinks being a lord is equivalent to own a castle.

So it wasn't ok? Tell that to the cook. Roose the lord made Vargo a lord, it may not have been legal, doesnt help that theyre rebels, but it is what it is.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

How do you know that? Did you actually ask Tatters what he actually wants and why? Or do you know what Selmy actually intends to give him if he were in the position to give it to him.

He says he wants Pentos man, thats all he ever says. 

I know that Selmy thinks agreeing to Tats plan is not in Illyrios interest yet proceeds to do it.

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

No, he intends to use Tatters and his guys to ensure the victory of his own/Dany's forces at Meereen. 

No dude, thats what the unsullied are for and his free riders and gladiator generals. The Windblown will not defeat the slavers.

Theyll rescue Darrio and the other two, this is something essential that only turncloaks under the supervision of knights can accomplish. Mayhaps Selmy got off cheap

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

He is playing the short game, he doesn't care what happens next month or next year, and there is no reason to pretend that he cares. As soon as Dany is back he'll gladly give up the powers he took and go back to being a humble knight and bodyguard. He won't push anyone to uphold some deal he made with a sellsword or insist that because he did that they are obligated to go through with it.

Dude, this is Ser Barristan Fucking Selmy the Gods Damn Bold, his honor is as synonymous as his cloak is white. Hes not deceiving anyone. Least of all Windblown Dany and Dorne. All this is going in the white book, think theres gonna be a paragraph about him siking some dude out? Nah man, when Selmy told the Dornish knights his plan, im extremely confident he had every intrest in honoring each word spoken. More so that Varys Hansel and Greteled his ass to Illyrio, which im also fairly sure of

Quote

It had been Missandei who suggested the ploy to him. He would never have thought of such a thing himself. In King's Landing, bribes had been Littlefinger's domain, whilst Lord Varys had the task of fostering pision amongst the crown's enemies. His own duties had been more straightforward.

As far as giving up the reigns of power, I could see him stepping down as Hand but just let Jorah ask to be LC lol (though he totally should be)

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Rego Draz actually had his bastard sons in KL. He didn't have any legitimate children but three bastard sons who are under consideration to succeed him as Master of Coin.

Oh cool, thanks

Edited by Hugorfonics

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15 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Yes. Barristan is a hero who fights single combats and have amazing skills. Not someone that flies under the radar like a faceless man.

So, someone who can infiltrate a castle under imminent siege single-handedly can't "fly under the radar"?  

I didn't say he was a faceless man.  Does he need to be to find his way onto a ship to Pentos? Even with the security in KL at the time? No. 

Arya, a 10 year old girl stayed undetected approximately the same amount of time in the city without being found and walked out of a guarded city gate.  Yes, in disguise with the help of Yoren, but are you going to claim that Yoren was more cunning than Barristan?  

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1 hour ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Ok. But this is the same man that single-handedly rescued Aerys from the Dun Fort.  You don't think he could have made his way on to a ship? bah.  

Again, I'm not saying he didn't receive assistance knowing or unknowing from Varys, but that is why I find this subject so interesting.

"Yes, but don't let that trouble you. You're still half a child. Every man's a piece to start with, and every maid as well. Even some who think they are players." He ate another seed. "Cersei, for one. She thinks herself sly, but in truth she is utterly predictable. Her strength rests on her beauty, birth, and riches. Only the first of those is truly her own, and it will soon desert her. I pity her then. She wants power, but has no notion what to do with it when she gets it. Everyone wants something, Alayne. And when you know what a man wants you know who he is, and how to move him."

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4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Doran sent his son to perverse an old treaty/marriage contract, he must have given Frog leave to speak on behalf of Dorne to do it. After all, Viserys cant get married. It was all legal, 2 parchments with their princely seals and witnessed by Dornish knights.

Sure - Doran gave his son leave to speak on behalf of Dorne to Daenerys. Not to pretty much any guy he meets on his way and in relation to subjects that have little or literally nothing to do with the Dany marriage deal. I mean, do you think he could have sold Trystane to some Volantene slaver, too? Or married Arianne by proxy to some sellsword? Or promised anyone he met on his trip the 50,000 Dornish spears he offered to Daenerys?

You also seem to forget that Quentyn tries to steal Dany's dragons when he is killed. Dany did not allow him to do this, and would consider anybody helping him in this foolish quest a traitor/no friend of hers.

Dany was also thought to be dead/gone by then, indicating that a man as shrewd as Tatters no longer thought he could reach the deal he wanted to make with Dany so he went along with the Dornish thing - but the price for the Dornish thing (Pentos) might have been different from the price for the Dany thing - had he ever gotten the chance to talk to her or pass along what he wanted to say via Meris.

Selmy doesn't make any kind of deal, he just makes a promise, believing that Tatters actually wanted what he told Quentyn that he wanted.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Would it? Im not sure. But whatever, the sky may fall tomorrow but lets assume for this conversation that everything goes relatively smoothly.

No, I don't think we should assume that, since I don't see a good reason to assume that the Pentos thing is going to happen because of anything Selmy promised. That may figure into things but it alone is not going to be enough for Dany to attack Illyrio's city.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So it wasn't ok? Tell that to the cook. Roose the lord made Vargo a lord, it may not have been legal, doesnt help that theyre rebels, but it is what it is.

Roose never formally made Vargo a lord, did he? With a royal grant, etc.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

He says he wants Pentos man, thats all he ever says. 

To Quentyn.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

I know that Selmy thinks agreeing to Tats plan is not in Illyrios interest yet proceeds to do it.

He makes a promise, at this point he has not done anything. And I really don't see what he could do in this regard afterwards without Dany's approval.

Unless you want to suggest he would march foolishly to Pentos as soon as the crisis in Meereen is over.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

No dude, thats what the unsullied are for and his free riders and gladiator generals. The Windblown will not defeat the slavers.

They are already helping with that. There are some good fighters among the Yunkish allies, not that many but some, especially the legions from New Ghis. 

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Theyll rescue Darrio and the other two, this is something essential that only turncloaks under the supervision of knights can accomplish. Mayhaps Selmy got off cheap.

We'll have to wait and see whether that works. What we know at least establishes that they declared for Dany's guys.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Dude, this is Ser Barristan Fucking Selmy the Gods Damn Bold, his honor is as synonymous as his cloak is white. Hes not deceiving anyone. Least of all Windblown Dany and Dorne. All this is going in the white book, think theres gonna be a paragraph about him siking some dude out? Nah man, when Selmy told the Dornish knights his plan, im extremely confident he had every intrest in honoring each word spoken.

You mean like Selmy did not betray his queen's own king consort? Hiding behind the paper shield of her having never commanded him to protect him, too... Do you think Dany wanted Selmy to arrest Hizdahr and seize power in his place? Do you think she will thank the old fool if the whole thing gets Hizdahr killed and it turned out that he was innocent?

Not to mention the guile, deceit, and underhanded means Selmy used to seize powers with the help of the Shavepate.

This man is clearly capable of lying.

And he is also capable of lying to two stupid and treasonous Dornishmen who betrayed Queen Daenerys by helping a fool prince to try to steal her dragons. 

He is making a gamble there - let the Dornish so they can try to save Daario and the others and get the Windblown on their side. A pity if they fail but not really all that bad since Selmy doesn't care much about Daario and would most definitely not shed a tear if he were to die in battle.

4 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

As far as giving up the reigns of power, I could see him stepping down as Hand but just let Jorah ask to be LC lol (though he totally should be)

Selmy is no one's Hand. He just seized power, and he thinks what he is doing is in Dany's best interest - and she may share that view after her return. This also entails that he will *never* leave Meereen until he has confirmed whether Dany is alive or dead. And if this were taking years then it would take years. He would not so much as lift a finger in the meantime to conquer Pentos - aside from, perhaps, giving Tatters a token force or allowing men who want to go with him to accompany him.

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12 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

So, someone who can infiltrate a castle under imminent siege single-handedly can't "fly under the radar"?  

I didn't say he was a faceless man.  Does he need to be to find his way onto a ship to Pentos? Even with the security in KL at the time? No. 

Arya, a 10 year old girl stayed undetected approximately the same amount of time in the city without being found and walked out of a guarded city gate.  Yes, in disguise with the help of Yoren, but are you going to claim that Yoren was more cunning than Barristan?  

Duskendale was an extraction (quick and easy in and out) which is inherently different from going undercover for weeks among the smallfolk and not being notcied.

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3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean like Selmy did not betray his queen's own king consort? Hiding behind the paper shield of her having never commanded him to protect him, too... Do you think Dany wanted Selmy to arrest Hizdahr and seize power in his place? Do you think she will thank the old fool if the whole thing gets Hizdahr killed and it turned out that he was innocent?

Not to mention the guile, deceit, and underhanded means Selmy used to seize powers with the help of the Shavepate.

This man is clearly capable of lying.

And he is also capable of lying to two stupid and treasonous Dornishmen who betrayed Queen Daenerys by helping a fool prince to try to steal her dragons. 

He is making a gamble there - let the Dornish so they can try to save Daario and the others and get the Windblown on their side. A pity if they fail but not really all that bad since Selmy doesn't care much about Daario and would most definitely not shed a tear if he were to die in battle.

Yes.  @Hugorfonics, as we discussed earlier, there is an arc in Barristan's character to this point, as @Lord Varys pointed out.  You may not agree, but his actions seem to be proof.

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4 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Duskendale was an extraction (quick and easy in and out) which is inherently different from going undercover for weeks among the smallfolk and not being notcied.

Ok, so Aria with some help from Yoren are more cunning than Barristan?  If that is your argument, we are at an impass.  That seems ridiculous to me.

"Quick and easy in and out"--Infiltrating a castle under imminent seige? 

Listen to that.  I don't want to be mean, but that is silly.

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30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Sure - Doran gave his son leave to speak on behalf of Dorne to Daenerys. Not to pretty much any guy he meets on his way and in relation to subjects that have little or literally nothing to do with the Dany marriage deal. I mean, do you think he could have sold Trystane to some Volantene slaver, too? Or married Arianne by proxy to some sellsword? Or promised anyone he met on his trip the 50,000 Dornish spears he offered to Daenerys?

Lol I guess, ya know for their sigil these Martells arent too bright.

Frog said "my father is a man of honor. If I put my seal to an agreement, he will fulfill its terms. You have my word on that."

Thats a believable sentence man, hes a knight and a prince. 

Its like Cat, she has no "right" to arrest Tyrion, but come on

Quote

"It would seem he has met some trouble on the road. My lord father is quite vexed. You would not perchance have any notion of who might have wished my brother ill, would you?"

"Your brother has been taken at my command, to answer for his crimes," Ned Stark said.

 

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You also seem to forget that Quentyn tries to steal Dany's dragons when he is killed. Dany did not allow him to do this, and would consider anybody helping him in this foolish quest a traitor/no friend of hers.

Idk, this really deserves its own thread. Frog says Dany wanted him to have one (not two lol) which is why she showed them to him and said the dragons got 3 heads. That was weird, whyd she do and say that?

30 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany was also thought to be dead/gone by then, indicating that a man as shrewd as Tatters no longer thought he could reach the deal he wanted to make with Dany so he went along with the Dornish thing - but the price for the Dornish thing (Pentos) might have been different from the price for the Dany thing - had he ever gotten the chance to talk to her or pass along what he wanted to say via Meris.

Selmy doesn't make any kind of deal, he just makes a promise, believing that Tatters actually wanted what he told Quentyn that he wanted.

What? Theres only one thing, Pentos

He did make a deal man, he says "we'll pay the price" thats literally making a deal.

31 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

He makes a promise, at this point he has not done anything. And I really don't see what he could do in this regard afterwards without Dany's approval.

Unless you want to suggest he would march foolishly to Pentos as soon as the crisis in Meereen is over.

Im not sure what can be done either, but a promise is a promise

33 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You mean like Selmy did not betray his queen's own king consort? Hiding behind the paper shield of her having never commanded him to protect him, too... Do you think Dany wanted Selmy to arrest Hizdahr and seize power in his place? Do you think she will thank the old fool if the whole thing gets Hizdahr killed and it turned out that he was innocent?

I think its funny that Selmy arrests the husband and pays a heavy price for the boyfriend. And, yea I think Dany would agree.

If hes innocent? lol

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention the guile, deceit, and underhanded means Selmy used to seize powers with the help of the Shavepate.

This man is clearly capable of lying.

And he is also capable of lying to two stupid and treasonous Dornishmen who betrayed Queen Daenerys by helping a fool prince to try to steal her dragons. 

He is making a gamble there - let the Dornish so they can try to save Daario and the others and get the Windblown on their side. A pity if they fail but not really all that bad since Selmy doesn't care much about Daario and would most definitely not shed a tear if he were to die in battle.

Selmy is no one's Hand. He just seized power, and he thinks what he is doing is in Dany's best interest - and she may share that view after her return. This also entails that he will *never* leave Meereen until he has confirmed whether Dany is alive or dead. And if this were taking years then it would take years. He would not so much as lift a finger in the meantime to conquer Pentos - aside from, perhaps, giving Tatters a token force or allowing men who want to go with him to accompany him.

So now this old ass man who in the same chapter marvelled at Missandis brilliance for suggesting to sow discord among the enemy, noting that he would never have thought of that is the Bobby Fischer of Thrones? Ok. 

 

44 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

A pity if they fail but not really all that bad since Selmy doesn't care much about Daario and would most definitely not shed a tear if he were to die in battle.

Pfft, Jhogo is blood of her blood. If anything Selmy should shed his blood to make sure he doesn't. 

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I think it pertinent on the Barristan arc subjec to bring up that he is "Barristan The Bold".

His younger exploits such as being a mystery knight gave him his name from early on:

Quote

Before he had gone three steps, Quentyn Martell called out to him. "Barristan the Bold, they call you."

"Some do." Selmy had won that name when he was ten years old, a new-made squire, yet so vain and proud and foolish that he got it in his head that he could joust with tried and proven knights. So he'd borrowed a warhorse and some plate from Lord Dondarrion's armory and entered the lists at Blackhaven as a mystery knight. Even the herald laughed. My arms were so thin that when I lowered my lance it was all I could do to keep the point from furrowing the ground. Lord Dondarrion would have been within his rights to pull him off the horse and spank him, but the Prince of Dragonflies had taken pity on the addlepated boy in the ill-fitting armor and accorded him the respect of taking up his challenge. One course was all that it required. Afterward Prince Duncan helped him to his feet and removed his helm. "A boy," he had proclaimed to the crowd. "A bold boy." Fifty-three years ago. How many men are still alive who were there at Blackhaven?--A Dance with Dragons - The Discarded Knight

So he was "a bold boy", and a bold knight-as referenced with his infiltration of the Dun Fort.  But his character changed.  The "bold boy" became what he was as the man who we referenced, a man of unfailing honor.

But even in his honor, in fact took Robert's pardon.  We do see here some slight of the iron-clad honor that he is portrayed.  He witnessed Ned Stark's head taken off at the sept of Baelor.  A seemingly equal man of honor,  lost his head on the whims of a sadistic cruel boy, the same one that dismissed him from a life-long oath of service.  

He also witnessed slights to his name and honor repeatedly to his face:

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The green knight laughed again. "Barristan the Old, you mean. Don't flatter him too sweetly, child, he thinks overmuch of himself already."--A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

Quote

Xaro gave Selmy a cursory inspection. "Barristan the Old, did you say? Your bear knight was younger, and devoted to you."--A Dance with Dragons - Daenerys III

I would put forth that there are a number of factors besides what @Lord Varys discussed as his character arc, that would make it seem that he has come full circle in his arc.  

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It does seem that dragons played a role in Illyrio sending Barristan & Belwas:

Quote

"He would have dragons," Belwas said gruffly, "and the girl who makes them. He would have you."

"Belwas has the truth of it, Your Grace," said Arstan. "We were told to find you and bring you back to Pentos. The Seven Kingdoms have need of you. Robert the Usurper is dead, and the realm bleeds. When set we sail from Pentos there were four kings in the land, and no justice to be had."

 

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9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

We still don't know when exactly Selmy actually boarded a ship. And the tale is pretty condensed there, and is lacking an ending - which would be his arrival in Pentos, his meeting with Illyrio, the news about Dany and the dragons, and his assignment to find her with Belwas and Groleo.

Dany interrupted him!!! blame her :)

 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It also doesn't give us an explanation as to why and how he reached the conclusion to search for the true king. Was that just his defiance in reaction to the way Joffrey and his court had treated him? Could be. Could also be that Varys' people talked to him in the places he hung out - those pot shops he speaks of are Varys' lairs.

It was in the paragraphs I quoted.

"I was gathering my things when it came to me that I had brought this on myself by taking Robert's pardon. He was a good knight but a bad king, for he had no right to the throne he sat. That was when I knew that to redeem myself I must find the true king, and serve him loyally with all the strength that still remained me."

So, basically something inside him was always telling him that Robert was an usurper by he suppressed his thoughts till the bitter end.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But did he leave KL before or after the news about Viserys III's death reached KL? We don't know.

I think he learned that from Illyrio. I think Varys communicated that to Cersei at the beginning of ACOK and it was not known before. Remember that the time span in AGOT is longer than in the other books.

 

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The crucial thing I raised above is the question why Illyrio decided to use Selmy to bring back Dany rather than send him to Aegon.

 Dany changed the game by hatching the Dragons. They really needed her NOW. But you need to woe her to come back under Illyrio "protection". Belwas or Groleo are unlikely to be the right person to convince her, so Illyrio gave her another "gift": the finest knight in the realm. Someone who personally knew many of Dany's relatives and thus truly affect her decisions.  Of course, Barristan had his own ideas.

BTW: How did Barristan convince Belwas and Groleo to play the Arstan game is beyond me. Also, this shows the dearth of competent people at Varys/Illyrio disposal to participate in their plots.

Instead, revealing the Aegon's plot to Barristan would only raise too many questions at this point (too many who, how, why, etc). Specially because Barristan would need to hang up quite a long time in the Shy Maid until everything is ready and you risk loosing the dragons.

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And that, I think, only makes sense if Selmy only arrived in Pentos after Illyrio had already learned that the dragon eggs had hatched. 

Yeah, that or shortly before.

As I said above, I also thought that Varys had a hand on that. I imagined a similar situation as Jaime "forcing" Varys to liberate Tyrion. But it seems not.

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2 hours ago, FictionIsntReal said:

It does seem that dragons played a role in Illyrio sending Barristan & Belwas:

"He would have dragons," Belwas said gruffly, "and the girl who makes them. He would have you."

"Belwas has the truth of it, Your Grace," said Arstan. "We were told to find you and bring you back to Pentos. The Seven Kingdoms have need of you. Robert the Usurper is dead, and the realm bleeds. When set we sail from Pentos there were four kings in the land, and no justice to be had."

This quote is very important!

It shows the difference in agendas between Illyrio, who is only interested in the dragons, and Barristan who is actually interested in the situation of the Realm.

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8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Dany was also thought to be dead/gone by then, indicating that a man as shrewd as Tatters no longer thought he could reach the deal he wanted to make with Dany so he went along with the Dornish thing - but the price for the Dornish thing (Pentos) might have been different from the price for the Dany thing - had he ever gotten the chance to talk to her or pass along what he wanted to say via Meris.

Selmy doesn't make any kind of deal, he just makes a promise, believing that Tatters actually wanted what he told Quentyn that he wanted.

No, I don't think we should assume that, since I don't see a good reason to assume that the Pentos thing is going to happen because of anything Selmy promised. That may figure into things but it alone is not going to be enough for Dany to attack Illyrio's city.

 

Don't overthink the Tatters-Pentos thing, as you pointed out there are many holes. It is - mostly - a plot device to put another stone between Dany and Illyrio.

If you want to put any real reason, it is better to say that Tatters is just smelling a change of the world's tides and see this as the last chance to fulfill his life's objective. No matter, how much gold the Yunkaii pay him, he is not going to take Pentos with that. But with the dragon's queen at his side, maybe, maybe. 

 

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