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Wolf of the Steppes

What is the Illyrio Barristan connection?

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Mayhaps this has been discussed and re-discussed half a hundred times, but I seem to have missed it....

It is known that Barristan was sent and called himself Arstan, called Whitebeard by Belwas via Illyrio Mopatis to serve  as "squire" and sent to Daenerys.  

How is it that Barristan came to know, or planned to go to, or happened upon Illyrio?

The obvious answer one's mind goes to is that Varys sent him there, but a man like Barristan would obviously despise the Spider.  Why would he trust him? 

Perhaps it is a factor in the reason he put forth the name Arstan and watched, wanting to see if Dany was "her father's daughter" or mad.  

I'm at a loss on this particular point.  Perhaps @Dorian Martell's son or @Lost Melnibonean would like to chime in on this or anyone else would like to re-hash what my pea brain can't figure out.  Discuss please!

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I think it was probably just a case of Varys sending Barristan to Illyrio. Sure someone like Barristan wouldn't trust Varys, but its not like he had much options. 

I suppose it could also be a case of Barristan knowing that Viserys and Daenerys resided in Pentos from one of the Small Council meetings. 

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Yes.  It is probably a case of Barristan hearing reports of Dany through Small Council meetings.  If so, he would have found his way to Illyrio easily?.....perhaps not through Varys.  

Perhaps the bigger question is that how would he present himself to Illyrio?  If as a stranger, how would he be trusted by Illyrio.  If he presented himself as Barristan, maybe they worked the plan together to call himself Arstan.  It just seems out of character for Barry.

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23 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

 How is it that Barristan came to know, or planned to go to, or happened upon Illyrio?The obvious answer one's mind goes to is that Varys sent him there, but a man like Barristan would obviously despise the Spider.  Why would he trust him? Perhaps it is a factor in the reason he put forth the name Arstan and watched, wanting to see if Dany was "her father's daughter" or mad.  

I'm at a loss on this particular point.  Perhaps @Dorian Martell's son or @Lost Melnibonean would like to chime in on this or anyone else would like to re-hash what my pea brain can't figure out.  Discuss please!

 

23 hours ago, Euron III Greyjoy said:

I think it was probably just a case of Varys sending Barristan to Illyrio. Sure someone like Barristan wouldn't trust Varys, but its not like he had much options. 

I suppose it could also be a case of Barristan knowing that Viserys and Daenerys resided in Pentos from one of the Small Council meetings. 

Pretty much this. The Lord commander of the kingsguard and the greatest and most renowned knight in the seven kingdoms was publicly shamed, mocked and dishonored by the son of the king who pardoned him. He did not want to put his family at risk, and he had no other reason for living aside from duty. Varys could easily find him, give him a rundown of what was happening and send him to Fatty McFatterton.

Edited by Dorian Martell's son

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No, I don't think it was Varys. Barrisran detests Varys. I agree Varys set him up, and set the conditions, but I think Barristan acted on his own. As a member of the small council, Barristan was well aware that Illyrio had sent Viserys and Daenerys off into the Dothraki Sea with Khal Drogo. Since Barristan was seeking Rhaegar's heir, his first stop would be Pentos, with or without additional aid from Varys. 

As Daenerys’s growing host stands outside Meereen in Daenerys V, Storm 57, we get the big reveal that Arstan is Barristan, and that he served as Belwas’s squire at Illyrio’s behest. And Barristan reveals to Daenerys Jorah’s role as an informer to Varys, trading information on the Targlings for gold and a promise to return from exile. We learn that, although Robert never attempted to have the Targlings assassinated upon Jon Arryn’s counsel, he relied on Varys to report on Viserys’s every move.

Notice here Barristan apparently disdains Varys, but appreciates the assistance he received from Illyrio on behalf of Daenerys. There is no reveal, however, of the link Illyrio provides between Jorah and Varys. The author purposely shields Illyrio’s link between Jorah and Varys from Barristan and Daenerys. 

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On 2/4/2019 at 6:06 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

No, I don't think it was Varys. Barrisran detests Varys. I agree Varys set him up, and set the conditions, but I think Barristan acted on his own. As a member of the small council, Barristan was well aware that Illyrio had sent Viserys and Daenerys off into the Dothraki Sea with Khal Drogo. Since Barristan was seeking Rhaegar's heir, his first stop would be Pentos, with or without additional aid from Varys. 

As Daenerys’s growing host stands outside Meereen in Daenerys V, Storm 57, we get the big reveal that Arstan is Barristan, and that he served as Belwas’s squire at Illyrio’s behest. And Barristan reveals to Daenerys Jorah’s role as an informer to Varys, trading information on the Targlings for gold and a promise to return from exile. We learn that, although Robert never attempted to have the Targlings assassinated upon Jon Arryn’s counsel, he relied on Varys to report on Viserys’s every move.

Notice here Barristan apparently disdains Varys, but appreciates the assistance he received from Illyrio on behalf of Daenerys. There is no reveal, however, of the link Illyrio provides between Jorah and Varys. The author purposely shields Illyrio’s link between Jorah and Varys from Barristan and Daenerys. 

Yes, this makes the most sense to me.  Barristan did, by his very nature, disdain Varys and probably found Illyrio on his own.  He does seem to appreciate the assistance in getting to Dany.

So, I guess the question would now be, what is Illyrio's gain in sending him to her.  To hasten her on her way to join Aegon in Westeros?....Mayhaps.

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50 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

So, I guess the question would now be, what is Illyrio's gain in sending him to her.

To protect her.  A lot had changed since she first left Illyrio, Drogo and Viserys are dead, she has the Dragons and now she has a desire to free the world.  She needed a counselor

 

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1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So he doesn't know about the Varys/Illyrio connection?

That we can't be sure of, but there is no indication.  To my knowledge no one except for Tyrion knows of the Varys/Illyrio connection.  Unless someone can come up with a quote.  

All that we can say for a fact that we can point to concerning Barristan's knowledge of V/I connection is from his pov chapters.  Varys only appears 2 times in ADwD in Barristan's pov's and zero times in WoW (sample chapters).  The 2 times have nothing even close to do with Illyrio.....

"The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. "--A Dance with Dragons - The Kingbreaker

 

"It had been Missandei who suggested the ploy to him. He would never have thought of such a thing himself. In King's Landing, bribes had been Littlefinger's domain, whilst Lord Varys had the task of fostering division amongst the crown's enemies. His own duties had been more straightforward. Eleven years of age, yet Missandei is as clever as half the men at this table and wiser than all of them."--A Dance with Dragons - The Queen's Hand

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On 2/4/2019 at 7:06 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

No, I don't think it was Varys. Barrisran detests Varys. I agree Varys set him up, and set the conditions, but I think Barristan acted on his own. As a member of the small council, Barristan was well aware that Illyrio had sent Viserys and Daenerys off into the Dothraki Sea with Khal Drogo. Since Barristan was seeking Rhaegar's heir, his first stop would be Pentos, with or without additional aid from Varys. 

As Daenerys’s growing host stands outside Meereen in Daenerys V, Storm 57, we get the big reveal that Arstan is Barristan, and that he served as Belwas’s squire at Illyrio’s behest. And Barristan reveals to Daenerys Jorah’s role as an informer to Varys, trading information on the Targlings for gold and a promise to return from exile. We learn that, although Robert never attempted to have the Targlings assassinated upon Jon Arryn’s counsel, he relied on Varys to report on Viserys’s every move.

Notice here Barristan apparently disdains Varys, but appreciates the assistance he received from Illyrio on behalf of Daenerys. There is no reveal, however, of the link Illyrio provides between Jorah and Varys. The author purposely shields Illyrio’s link between Jorah and Varys from Barristan and Daenerys. 

I'm thinking that the only way that Illyrio's name would come up in a Small Council discussion on Dany is if Varys informed them that Illyrio had brokered the marriage to KD or was otherwise supporting her. I can't fathom why he would do this, since it would put a huge target on the back of his benefactor.

And I may be wrong, but isn't Barry at the small council meeting when Varys brings news of Dany's pregnancy, and that it came from Jorah Mormont?

So I'm not seeing how Barry would know to link up with Illyrio unless Varys steered him in that direction.

 

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2 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

That we can't be sure of, but there is no indication.  To my knowledge no one except for Tyrion knows of the Varys/Illyrio connection. 

If Barristan knew, then I doubt he would have taken that route. If he doesn't trust Varys, why whould he trust Illyrio?

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4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

So he doesn't know about the Varys/Illyrio connection?

Nope. 

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm thinking that the only way that Illyrio's name would come up in a Small Council discussion on Dany is if Varys informed them that Illyrio had brokered the marriage to KD or was otherwise supporting her. I can't fathom why he would do this, since it would put a huge target on the back of his benefactor.

And I may be wrong, but isn't Barry at the small council meeting when Varys brings news of Dany's pregnancy, and that it came from Jorah Mormont?

So I'm not seeing how Barry would know to link up with Illyrio unless Varys steered him in that direction.

Robert was aware that Viserys had been sheltered by Illyrio, and that Illyrio arranged the Daenerys-Drogo marriage. Presumably this was discussed in council. 

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Its totally possible that Barri is the Spiders creature, like Tyrion Jorah or Griff. Theyll all deny it and think back on why they didn't kill Varys, or look forward to killing him, but it is what it is. 

Though it could totally (and what i think) be that while Barri was going in between KL gates he was being spied upon and been given subtle hints about Targayens and Illyrio

Quote

When I came to Highgarden to dicker for Margaery's hand, she let her lord son bluster while she asked pointed questions about Joffrey's nature. I praised him to the skies, to be sure . . . whilst my men spread disturbing tales amongst Lord Tyrell's servants. That is how the game is played.

"I also planted the notion of Ser Loras taking the white. Not that I suggested it, that would have been too crude. But men in my party supplied grisly tales about how the mob had killed Ser Preston Greenfield and raped the Lady Lollys, and slipped a few silvers to Lord Tyrell's army of singers to sing of Ryam Redwyne, Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, and Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. A harp can be as dangerous as a sword, in the right hands.

"Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras's inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract.

(Thats Petyr not Varys, but the games the game)

Although even if Barri decided for himself to sail east, id be willing to bet the sailors were the Spiders creatures

5 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

So, I guess the question would now be, what is Illyrio's gain in sending him to her.  To hasten her on her way to join Aegon in Westeros?....Mayhaps.

Basically, but its Illryios plan so it didnt work. Danys a means to an end for Young Griff, shes a piece hes "not". The Dothraki army was going to Aegon and now the dragons. Barri went to Qarth to pick her up and bring her to Aegon, but Varys/Illryio didnt comprehend Jorahs brilliance or Danys tenacity.

Edited by Hugorfonics

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10 minutes ago, FictionIsntReal said:

What are you referring to?

Not trusting Illryio and robbing him to pay for her elite army

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Well.  Illyrio and Varys are putting together the Dream Team to make Targaryen restoration come true.  Barristan is one piece of that puzzle.  There are good reasons and not any bad ones to make Selmy part of Team Awesome.  

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13 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

If Barristan knew, then I doubt he would have taken that route. If he doesn't trust Varys, why whould he trust Illyrio?

Yeah.  That was part of my whole point.  He doesn't know.

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18 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Yes, this makes the most sense to me.  Barristan did, by his very nature, disdain Varys and probably found Illyrio on his own.  He does seem to appreciate the assistance in getting to Dany.

What @Lost Melniboneansaid makes sense. We also need to note that it was Varys who suggested  Cersei to remove Barristan from the King's Guard, which means that Varys had a plan for him (besides weakening the Lannisters as Tywin noticed). On the other hand Barristan knows Varys for a long time. My head canon on this issue is that Varys found Barristan in KL and the later "forced" Varys to tell him where Viserys was, in a situation not unlike Jaime "forcing" Varys to liberate Tyrion at the end of ASOS. Barristan took a ship and contacted Illyrio.

 

18 hours ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

So, I guess the question would now be, what is Illyrio's gain in sending him to her.  To hasten her on her way to join Aegon in Westeros?....Mayhaps.

Remember that Barristan must have arrived not long before (or after) the news of Dany's dragons reached Illyrio (via Jorah). Illyrio decided that they needed Dany now and someone as reliable as Barristan would be able to convince her to come back to Pentos, again under Illyrio watching eyes. Of course Barristan had his own motives and agenda, including hiding his name so things didn't go as planed.

On the other hand, maybe Barristan would have smelled the truth about Aegon's origins. He knows a thing or two about the Blackfyres.

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5 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

What @Lost Melniboneansaid makes sense. We also need to note that it was Varys who suggested  Cersei to remove Barristan from the King's Guard, which means that Varys had a plan for him (besides weakening the Lannisters as Tywin noticed). On the other hand Barristan knows Varys for a long time. My head canon on this issue is that Varys found Barristan in KL and the later "forced" Varys to tell him where Viserys was, in a situation not unlike Jaime "forcing" Varys to liberate Tyrion at the end of ASOS. Barristan took a ship and contacted Illyrio.

A very good point.  This is possible.  I was wondering if in fact that Robert/the small council knew that Dany/Viserys were with Magister Illyrio in Pentos.  A search for "magister" only hits on Daenerys pov chapters, as well as "Illyrio".  

"Pentos" does occur in relevance here:

Quote

"Ser Jorah is now in Pentos, anxious to earn a royal pardon that would allow him to return from exile," Robert explained. "Lord Varys makes good use of him."--A Game of Thrones - Eddard II

This is the only time we see that the small council is aware of Dany/Viserys being in Pentos.  Not that they are with Magister Illyrio.  So that lends some credence to your "head canon" (btw I like that).  

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