Hugorfonics Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Why did he betray Dany? He says it was the company's decision but judging from his conversation with Tyrion, not all second sons are worth the same. So if his betrayal was done in earnest then why did he try so hard to gift Dany with Tyrion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Who's to say that was the only thing he had in mind? Cersei was offering a lordship for Tyrion's head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euron III Greyjoy Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Where did it say he was trying to give Tyrion to Daenerys? I presumed it was Cersei he was planning on handing Tyrion over to. As to his plan I imagine its just to simply be on the winning side, and as of the Battle of Fire he probably thinks Daenerys' side is going to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted March 3, 2019 Author Share Posted March 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Who's to say that was the only thing he had in mind? Cersei was offering a lordship for Tyrion's head. Oh, good point 33 minutes ago, Euron III Greyjoy said: Where did it say he was trying to give Tyrion to Daenerys? I presumed it was Cersei he was planning on handing Tyrion over to. As to his plan I imagine its just to simply be on the winning side, and as of the Battle of Fire he probably thinks Daenerys' side is going to win. He hints at it. Wine cups in hand, the Yunkai'i wandered the garden in small groups, beneath lemon trees and night-blooming flowers, and Dany found herself face-to-face with Brown Ben Plumm. He bowed low. "Worship. You look lovely. Well, you always did. None of them Yunkishmen are half so pretty. I thought I might bring a wedding gift for you, but the bidding went too high for old Brown Ben." "I want no gifts from you." "This one you might. The head of an old foe." "Your own?" she said sweetly. "You betrayed me." "Now that's a harsh way o' putting it, if you don't mind me saying." Brown Ben scratched at his speckled grey-and-white whiskers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acwill07 Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 8 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Why did he betray Dany? He says it was the company's decision but judging from his conversation with Tyrion, not all second sons are worth the same. So if his betrayal was done in earnest then why did he try so hard to gift Dany with Tyrion? It could be for a couple of reasons. He could be realizing that he made a mistake betraying Dany and he wanted to acquire Tyrion as a gift. Or maybe he just wanted Tyrion as an insurance policy so he could keep all his options open. If the battle should go against them he could turn his coat again and us Tyrion as a gift to hopefully keep Dany from killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 I'm really, really interested in Brown Ben Plumm. He is what I'm thinking of as a "brown" character (along with Bennis of the Brown Shield, Bronn, possibly Tristifer Mudd), a Ben character (along with Benjen Stark, Bennaro) and a Plumm. We have all been focused on possible hidden Blackfyres, but I think a lot of the secret Targs are going to be descendants of Elaena Targaryen, sister of Baelor. She has descendants with surnames Waters (or Longwaters), Penrose and Plumm. So Brown Ben Plumm could be an agent for helping to bring together the remnants of the Targaryen descendants so they can stand together. Or he may be working only in the interests of the Elaena descendants. (I have written elsewhere in this forum that I suspect Littlefinger is a secret Plumm descendant / Targaryen. So there may be a Brown Ben / Baelish secret alliance. One of the few times we saw Littlefinger get worked up about something was when Robert wanted to hire a Faceless Man to assassinate Daenerys. Petyr said it would be too darn expensive to hire a Faceless Man. But when has he ever raised an objection to Robert's spending habits? I think his true objection was that he wanted to prevent that kind of threat to Daenerys.) When Ben says that the Second Sons have never really changed loyalties and have always been supporters of Daenerys, it may have been the author foreshadowing that Petyr Baelish (and/or other characters) were never really supporters of the usurper; they always considered themselves secret operatives working toward a Targaryen restoration. 14 hours ago, Hugorfonics said: Brown Ben scratched at his speckled grey-and-white whiskers. Isn't stroking his beard one of Littlefinger's characteristic gestures? I think beards in the books represent disguises. Brown Ben is signaling here that he has a secret identity. Another source of hints would be to look at plums in the books. Dany eats a lot of dates, as I recall, which are dried plums, right? (I think there may also be a wordplay pun on nomads - describing the Dothraki - and Damson, which is a kind of plum.) At one point, Ser Jorah brings Dany a small plum and she thinks that it's the best thing she has ever eaten. By contrast, here is a scene where Jeor seems to be testing Jon Snow, with some symbolic stuff that seems intended to find out just what kind of Targaryen he might be: "If truth be told, we expected you to do just as you did." Mormont tried a plum, spit out the pit. "I ordered a watch kept over you. You were seen leaving. If your brothers had not fetched you back, you would have been taken along the way, and not by friends. Unless you have a horse with wings like a raven. Do you?" "No." Jon felt like a fool. "Pity, we could use a horse like that." (AGoT, Jon IX) The winged horse is the sigil of Bittersteel. The raven might be a Bloodraven allusion. The spitting out of the plum pit might allude to this third bloodline of the Targaryens. (And might be a possible dragon pit reference.) I know that @Ran has informed us that the Blackfyre backstory had not been worked out until the completion of ACoK, but I assume GRRM had a notion in the back of his head that he would be working out some factions within the Targaryen family at some point as the story progressed. Based on other literary analysis of the text, I also think that the author sometimes constructs plots around symbols or wordplay he has come up with ahead of time. So he knew how he wanted to use the plum, winged horse and raven as symbols before he worked out the Blackfyre and Blackwood / Bracken feud, or the Elaena Targaryen matriarchal lines, but realized that they would make good symbols to represent these lines of royal blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 plan? getting himself alive out of Slaver's Bay. It doesn't mean he doesn't feel any sympathy for Dany. I think he prefers to work with her rather than with the Yunkaii, who are just trash. He just saw Dany giving more and more space to her foes and smelled defeat. Why did he want to gift Dany Tyrion's head? For the reasons above. He prefers to be in friendly terms with Dany than the other way around. So, giving her something valuable is a way to apologize and to tell her that if Dany begins to be serious about war, he will betray the Yunkaii once again in a split of second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HexMachina Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 Ben Plumm has no firm loyalties except to his own longevity. His actions are best explained by his desire to be on the winning side and survive. So he likes to have a Get Out of Jail card in case of emergencies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.