Kajjo Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, fairwarging said: There definitely seemed to be something personal in it, but how much of it is that the Unsullied, free or not, are trained from birth to follow their leader without question? Both of it, probably. Grey Worm is full of grief because of Missandei and some more kills is what he needs. He sort of snapped, too, because of grief and loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 Psychological issues in the moment of snapping Lost two closest friends: Jorah and Missandei Lost two dragons considered somehow as her children. Lost two advisers, because of betrayal: Varys and Tyrion Lost Jon's affection despite mutual love, feels also betrayed by him. Lost her birthright she valued so high all her life. No one really wants her to rule, she is not the new ruler everyone desires. Everyone hails Jon and loves him. He has the birthright. She conquered King's Landing. They surrendered. Lost her goal in life of conquering. She was always about conquering. Lonesome. Betrayed. Full of grief, hatred, frustration. She simply sees no future in being Queen of King's Landing anymore. Alone, Lonely, Unloved, unwanted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Kajjo said: Psychological issues in the moment of snapping Lost two closest friends: Jorah and Missandei Lost two dragons considered somehow as her children. Lost two advisers, because of betrayal: Varys and Tyrion Lost Jon's affection despite mutual love, feels also betrayed by him. Lost her birthright she valued so high all her life. No one really wants her to rule, she is not the new ruler everyone desires. Everyone hails Jon and loves him. He has the birthright. She conquered King's Landing. They surrendered. Lost her goal in life of conquering. She was always about conquering. Lonesome. Betrayed. Full of grief, hatred, frustration. She simply sees no future in being Queen of King's Landing anymore. Alone, Lonely, Unloved, unwanted. "Snapping" at her enemies, as she has done in the past. Not innocent civilians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weirwoodface Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Targaryen Peas said: This topic is 40% Targ (Daenerys) haters, 40% Daenerys sympathizers, 20% don't know what they're doing here. It is, in fact, possible to be an enthusiast of this franchise, its characters and its storylines without taking tribalist hardline stances on the main characters. I feel that the OP has great points and I am no "hater". Rather, I'm trying to place Dany's fate in the overall context of what the story is ultimately trying to say. Yeah, I know D&D have mucked it up, but in the end it's GRRM's story and statement. It's for sure that the showrunners made questionable choices on the way, but here we are. Dany is a bit touched by some mental illness IMO, but which one of the other main characters isn't touched by insanity by the end of this story? What is the actual point of the story? Maybe it's war and how it debases us all. Even the people we love the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Here's the real problem. They couldn't leave it to where Daeny would just target Jon and Sansa after taking KL. There would be too many Targ sympathizers after she worked so hard to save the north. She had to do something out of character in order for us to be surprised and to where the Starks are still the "good guys" in that fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joaozinm Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, Kajjo said: Psychological issues in the moment of snapping Lost two closest friends: Jorah and Missandei Lost two dragons considered somehow as her children. Lost two advisers, because of betrayal: Varys and Tyrion Lost Jon's affection despite mutual love, feels also betrayed by him. Lost her birthright she valued so high all her life. No one really wants her to rule, she is not the new ruler everyone desires. Everyone hails Jon and loves him. He has the birthright. She conquered King's Landing. They surrendered. Lost her goal in life of conquering. She was always about conquering. Lonesome. Betrayed. Full of grief, hatred, frustration. She simply sees no future in being Queen of King's Landing anymore. Alone, Lonely, Unloved, unwanted. All those things tempered with targaryen birth madness. I don't think those things alone could trigger the barbecue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwish Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, weirwoodface said: Rather, I'm trying to place Dany's fate in the overall context of what the story is ultimately trying to say. Yeah, I know D&D have mucked it up, but in the end it's GRRM's story and statement. It's for sure that the showrunners made questionable choices on the way, but here we are. LOl, I have concluded that what the story tries to say, it has already been said multiple times with Stannis, Cersei, Joffrey, Aeries and many more wanna -be Kings. Really Dany's story is an all over repetition in a different way to my ears. Or I don't see another point in breaking her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, joaozinm said: All those things tempered with targaryen birth madness. I don't think those things alone could trigger the barbecue. Yes, that what I written above many times: Her incestuous Targaryan bloodline features some tendency to snapping, whether you call it madness or not. I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Nightwish said: I have concluded that what the story tries to say, it has already been said multiple times with Stannis, Cersei, Joffrey, Aeries and many more wanna -be Kings And that is...? Please elaborate on what has been said with Stannis, Cersi, Jeoffrey and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwish Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, Kajjo said: And that is...? Please elaborate on what has been said with Stannis, Cersi, Jeoffrey and others. Ah that eventually on your way to get power you are destroyed by it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weirwoodface Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Nightwish said: LOl, I have concluded that what the story tries to say, it has already said it multiple times with Stannis, Cersei, Joffrey, Aeries and many more wanna -be Kings. Really Dany's story is an all over repetition in a different way to my ears. Or I don't see another point in breaking her. Many people thought she was unbreakable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairwarging Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I think a lot of viewers feel cheated because many of her darker moments were treated as triumphant, or given a lot of excessive justification. Her enemies in the east were very black and white and it was very easy for her to earn the love of a massive amount of people. I don't think she was built up as 'mad' enough for this episode to work- they needed several episodes- but it was definitely there. Her season six arc worked (sort of) because the Dothraki were painted as evil. After they discovered who she was, they decided she would join the dosh khahleen, a respected institution in their culture. Obviously she didn't like this and needed to get out of it. She goes into a meeting with them and knowing full well Dothraki culture, mocks them and calls them unworthy. So they turn into these big bad guys and threaten to rape her, which justifies her burning them to death. And then everyone bows before her when she doesn't burn after she sets fire to a sacred building, even though the Dothraki HATE witches and magic. Cue the triumphant music. This isn't a great moment- this is her destroying a culture she once respected and considered herself a part of, a culture she should know intimately and be able to manipulate without bloodshed. But those guys were SO MEAN! Then she speaks, on her dragon, of 'killing her enemies in iron suits and burning down their stone houses' she is not specific, making them dangerous invaders and not allies. She seems to collect the aspects of each culture that she likes without considering them as a whole. She likes that she can easily conquer in the east and be righteous in a Western way, she likes that she can take advantage of the slave-minded unsullied and the brutality of the Dothraki, but heaven forbid they act that way towards her! She doesn't like that she has to the earn the Westerosis respect and it takes time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 1 minute ago, fairwarging said: I think a lot of viewers feel cheated because many of her darker moments were treated as triumphant, or given a lot of excessive justification. Her enemies in the east were very black and white and it was very easy for her to earn the love of a massive amount of people. I don't think she was built up as 'mad' enough for this episode to work- they needed several episodes- but it was definitely there. Her season six arc worked (sort of) because the Dothraki were painted as evil. After they discovered who she was, they decided she would join the dosh khahleen, a respected institution in their culture. Obviously she didn't like this and needed to get out of it. She goes into a meeting with them and knowing full well Dothraki culture, mocks them and calls them unworthy. So they turn into these big bad guys and threaten to rape her, which justifies her burning them to death. And then everyone bows before her when she doesn't burn after she sets fire to a sacred building, even though the Dothraki HATE witches and magic. Cue the triumphant music. This isn't a great moment- this is her destroying a culture she once respected and considered herself a part of, a culture she should know intimately and be able to manipulate without bloodshed. But those guys were SO MEAN! They were rapists and murderers who kidnapped and threatened Daeny. I could care less. Quote Then she speaks, on her dragon, of 'killing her enemies in iron suits and burning down their stone houses' she is not specific, making them dangerous invaders and not allies. She's getting them hyped to fight her enemies. Again, nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwish Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, weirwoodface said: Many people thought she was unbreakable. Not unbreakable as a Dany fan I would say different. What was her point of her arc ending up like Viserion or her father? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildling Queen Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I keep going back to two quotes from earlier in this show: Maester Aemon: "A Targaryen alone in this world is a terrible thing." I think Dany felt very alone after Jon rejected her. Daenerys: "She's (Sansa) not the same girl you grew up with. Not after what they did to her." The same things have been done to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairwarging Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, tallTale said: They were rapists and murderers who kidnapped and threatened Daeny. I could care less. Quote If they are so terrible, why is she bringing them to Westeros with her? Does she think they will be kinder to the people there? She knows full well they are a pillaging culture and they want to go in order to loot and yes, rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weirwoodface Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 8 minutes ago, Nightwish said: Ah that eventually on your way to get power you are destroyed by it. That is an excellent sub-theme, yes. I think that in the case of Dany it's a little simplistic because we can argue that the old adage speaks mainly of purely personal power and how people who are greedy and evil to start with will be consumed by their own malice. That's not Dany, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tallTale Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, fairwarging said: If they are so terrible, why is she bringing them to Westeros with her? Does she think they will be kinder to the people there? She knows full well they are a pillaging culture and they want to go in order to loot and yes, rape. Daeny made it pretty obvious long ago that following her means no raping and pillaging. She's probably saved countless lives by taking them over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Wildling Queen said: I think Dany felt very alone after Jon rejected her. Yes, that is one important point. One of several. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairwarging Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, tallTale said: Daeny made it pretty obvious long ago that following her means no raping and pillaging. She's probably saved countless lives by taking them over. Then what could the Dothraki possibly gain? Are they going to settle down and become farmers? It makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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