The Plutionian Others

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

If shadowbabies can be recognizably Stannis, I'm sure we can extend this to be the case for souls.

 

Indeed that could be the offering imo. In general this tends to be a reoccurring male offer to make or strengthen gods: see also the Unsullied and their warrior goddess, or when Dany chops up a "snake" and charrs it in a brazier to make her dragons grow (and a one-eyed snake is another name for ...). 

 

No, I mean like every dragon before these three were hatched without a magical human sacrifice. The egg was laid in a cradle or hatched in a clutch. It required sacrifice now, because the eggs had already petrified.

I used to view the white walkers as white shadows, but I've changed my opinion. They are the inversion to dragons. Shadowbabies are a different creation altogether. Dragons are fire made flesh, white walkers are flesh made ice, and shadowbabies are shadows cast by drawing some of the lifeforce that keeps the light of the soul/spirit alive within the body.

The body is simply the container in which the spirit or soul resides. Our true selves are more akin to light and our lifeforce is the energy or fuel that feeds the fire within. The soul or spirit is formless and fluid and glows with light. This is how I view the godhead - a collection of individual spirits combining their light. Stannis didn't lose his soul spirit, but Mel did draw on his lifeforce to cast the shadow. The light or spirit is within Stannis's body, so the shadow it cast would look like his physical form - the light illuminated his form, casting a shadow. Melisandre drew off some of his lifeforce (fuel) and now his light/fire burns dimmer.

I too believe that dragons and white walkers hold the lights or spirits of humans. They have been transformed - one through fire and the other through ice. Magic is needed to complete the transition, and magic dictates a ritual with a sacrifice, and I suspect that is why Targaryen bastards are called "dragon seed". Their sacrifice fertilizes the egg and magic facilitates the hatching. Bastards may have been viewed as disposable, but desired also for use in hatching dragon eggs.

Maegor's Holdfast holds the secrets of the dragonlords. Aegon the Conqueror had commanded it built. His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the dragonlords had built. So what, pray tell, are those secrets? I believe the Targaryens held their secret sacrifices down in the lower levels where they could keep their human (possibly children) sacrifices hidden from the public. The same is true of Dragonstone, but it was much easier to keep those sacrificial fires hidden when the island is cutoff from the mainland. If a magic ritual was unnecessary, then every clutch of eggs would hatch without help and there should have been a lot more dragons. But - as it was - clutches of eggs were collected and saved - stored on Dragonstone. Each child would get an egg placed in their crib and kept with the child until the secret ritual could be performed to hatch it.

As for chopping up symbolic penises...it's a metaphor and doesn't necessarily have to be literal. Just as the Nights King gave his queen his "seed"  - it could mean many things. It could be the actual act of intercourse, or a sacrificial penis as you suggest, or it could also be his bastard son since the men of the Watch do not marry. I liken it to Renly's peach that he offered Stannis. The peach symbolized the female genitalia. Maidenheads have become commodities and fathers and other men that make alliances by "selling" maidenheads are akin to pimps. Renly knew his brother would not be moved by offering him a woman's maidenhead, so he offered a symbolic maidenhead and hoped to move Stannis by reminding him that they are brothers. Of course we all know how that turned out. There was no marriage alliance to seal the pact and Stannis killed his brother.

[Lady Dacey]

Hi there. I absolutely loved reading this, thank you. I take the whole thing on a more symbolic level I guess, for I really see no need for any "sciency" explanation to make sense in the ASOIAF universe, but I really like the element conections you make. And having the others be an insect-like "society", whose only goal is to perpetuete itself, not good nor evil in itself but amoral... With no hate for mankind because they simply don't regard men at all... That's very much in line with my own beliefs since first reading the series. 

 

Just a thing: hemocyanin would denaturate and could never be present at the extreme temperatures the others seem to have, so I prefer to think of them as an inorganic form of life. 

[sweetsunray]

On 6/11/2019 at 12:58 PM, The Sleeper said:

I'm not sure what you are mean.

They are more or less human size or shaped with feet so it comes down to the pressure applied by their feet on the snow. This should be low enough not to disturb snow at all. Think of it like that. Would a pound of sugar leave a depression in snow? It would, so an Other should weigh a fraction of that. To such a being a breeze would be like a hurricane and attempting to lift and hold anything lighter than a feather would topple it. Let alone getting in a swordfight. Because it would have the density of something like a balloon. 

Sorry I couldn't reply earlier. Was busy all week writing exams for my senior pupils (including a physics one).

Well, yes, you have a point that once something has mass and the laws of gravity act on it, especially shaped as the Others, it should leave a print in the snow (no matter what density the obect or person with mass has). And their mass and "muscles" should be significant enough to put weight behind a blow. The force a body potentially has depends on the mass and speed.

They have magical abilities is also a given.

That said, I'm not convinced they are always in an entirely solid state. I think there's a potential hint in Tormund's remark in aDwD about them never really being away and clinging to your heels, even by day. But I've not been able to delve into that here, because it's tied to the "shadow" name and that "armor" of theirs, and "ice magic".

I'm sure we are not right on everything. And I am certain that the Others require magic to survive on Planetos, let alone to get far enough south to the Haunted Forest in the summer season. The physics section is meant to be more of an excercise (that is why I left the helium in). As long as we readers just go, "wave hand, it's magic" I think we are leaving potential clues. That they don't leave prints while they don't have a buoyant shape matters to George. And gravity on mass along with pressure laws say they should. Maybe his sole point is to make them do the physically impossible as evidence for the reader to think "these Others are magical and have magic". Or it's a hint at something more than that. And even if it's incorrect physics, the not-buoyant clue he puts in there right beside the "not making a print" is what made me consider "density" as a reearch clue. As I goofed around with certain elements, this opened up ideas on more of a conceptual idea behind the Others, rather than something scientifically accurate: the cold they bring, the nitrogen and carbon monoxide symbolic meaning, stumbling upon how those are solids on Pluto, and then the ties to the Chthonic theme he incorporates for the North and Lovecraft, and eventually to the spider tie of hemolymph-like blood.

Does that explain their ability to not leave prints? No it doesn't. It remains problematic and physically impossible, unless they approach in some "other" state than solid, and then they require magic to control their physical state as well as preserve their biological functions while they are liquid or gaseous, or plasmic (though that would require very high temperatures). In the end we all have to agree that magic comes into it. But what we tried to do here was to look for aspects where certain physical aspects could resolve some mysteries, to help precisise which stuff exactly might require magic. The "no-print" issue is not resolved, but the weather issue now has a likely fantasy-physics explanation. It opens the door to them potentially having different states of being, which would answer "where do they go by day and when the sun's out". 

We hope to address your criticism in a later essay.

[sweetsunray]

On 6/11/2019 at 4:11 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I used to view the white walkers as white shadows, but I've changed my opinion. They are the inversion to dragons. Shadowbabies are a different creation altogether. Dragons are fire made flesh, white walkers are flesh made ice, and shadowbabies are shadows cast by drawing some of the lifeforce that keeps the light of the soul/spirit alive within the body.

George does call them "white shadows" for reasons. Mel's magics are certainly to be seen as a parallel.

Ice made flesh in the way dragons are fire made flesh cannot explain why they managed to go south into the Haunted Forest during summertime, does not explain where they go by day and yet remain close. I think it's a mistake to see them physically as "like dragons but ice made flesh", though it's not to be discarded either.

I think both the dragon concepts and the shadowbaby concepts ought to be incorporated into a theory of the icy Others and then altered to fit the ice concept. But basically it comes down to these major conceptual differences: combustion is a (bio)chemical process, whereas ice-formation is a physical state process. This thematic difference is highlighted by George by using shapeshifter hints in the aGoT Prologue, and hinted at again when people like Tormund talk about the Others. Dragons are magical creatures, but biologically much closer to life as we know it.  They grow, but they don't shapeshift. Dragons don't dissolve or combust when they die either. Others melt and evaporate. There's no flesh, not even bones in evidence in the end when it comes to the Others.

On 6/11/2019 at 4:11 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Magic is needed to complete the transition, and magic dictates a ritual with a sacrifice, and I suspect that is why Targaryen bastards are called "dragon seed". Their sacrifice fertilizes the egg and magic facilitates the hatching. Bastards may have been viewed as disposable, but desired also for use in hatching dragon eggs.

Maegor's Holdfast holds the secrets of the dragonlords. Aegon the Conqueror had commanded it built. His son Maegor the Cruel had seen it completed. Afterward he had taken the heads of every stonemason, woodworker, and builder who had labored on it. Only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the dragonlords had built. So what, pray tell, are those secrets? I believe the Targaryens held their secret sacrifices down in the lower levels where they could keep their human (possibly children) sacrifices hidden from the public. The same is true of Dragonstone, but it was much easier to keep those sacrificial fires hidden when the island is cutoff from the mainland. If a magic ritual was unnecessary, then every clutch of eggs would hatch without help and there should have been a lot more dragons. But - as it was - clutches of eggs were collected and saved - stored on Dragonstone. Each child would get an egg placed in their crib and kept with the child until the secret ritual could be performed to hatch it.

If that were the case, then George wouldn't have said that Dany's feat was a one off. Dany's dragon eggs were petrified. It required magic to undo the petrification. As for the placing of an egg in the crib: that was a post-Maegor invention.

On 6/11/2019 at 4:11 PM, Feather Crystal said:

As for chopping up symbolic penises...it's a metaphor and doesn't necessarily have to be literal. Just as the Nights King gave his queen his "seed"  - it could mean many things. It could be the actual act of intercourse, or a sacrificial penis as you suggest, or it could also be his bastard son since the men of the Watch do not marry.

It may be a metaphor in Dany's case of chopping up a snake. But in the other two cases (Varys and Unsullied) we get the same graphic ritual: cutting of testes and penis, burning these on a brazier. In the case of Varys we know a blue flame appeared (which is typical for "carbon monoxide") with a voice. In the case of the Unsullied they mention they have a warrior goddess, and we'll likely learn more tidbits about those. In Dany's case we get a chopped up snake charred on a brazier and fed to her baby dragons at Qarth to help them grow bigger. I'm certain that George repeating this pattern thrice visually is meant to be more than just a "metaphor".

It's hinted at in another way with Stannis and Drogo: Stannis may still have his penis, but Mel hints that Stannis has become close to sterile. Drogo's penis was unresponsive to Dany's attempts.

 

On 6/11/2019 at 4:11 PM, Feather Crystal said:

I liken it to Renly's peach that he offered Stannis. The peach symbolized the female genitalia. Maidenheads have become commodities and fathers and other men that make alliances by "selling" maidenheads are akin to pimps. Renly knew his brother would not be moved by offering him a woman's maidenhead, so he offered a symbolic maidenhead and hoped to move Stannis by reminding him that they are brothers. Of course we all know how that turned out. There was no marriage alliance to seal the pact and Stannis killed his brother.

Stannis is already married. Renly has no maidenhead to give to Stannis. This whole paragraph makes no sense.

[sweetsunray]

On 6/12/2019 at 4:30 PM, Lady Dacey said:

Hi there. I absolutely loved reading this, thank you. I take the whole thing on a more symbolic level I guess, for I really see no need for any "sciency" explanation to make sense in the ASOIAF universe, but I really like the element conections you make. And having the others be an insect-like "society", whose only goal is to perpetuete itself, not good nor evil in itself but amoral... With no hate for mankind because they simply don't regard men at all... That's very much in line with my own beliefs since first reading the series. 

 

Just a thing: hemocyanin would denaturate and could never be present at the extreme temperatures the others seem to have, so I prefer to think of them as an inorganic form of life. 

It's certainly ok to take it more on a symbolic level. That's also what I myself would take away from it. I regard scientific subjects as much as a potential source for symblism than mythology or wordplay. It's just that a lot of people either want to go too literal with it, or the opposite shy away from it, and say "Fantasy!" I regard aSoiaF more as sci-fantasy. But even in his sci-fi writing, symbolism and themes matter ultimately more. The chemical elements are to be seen more like a potential proposal that illustrates the idea that George may be after: altogether different lifeform. They're not just another species like giants or CotF or tigers, etc...

Could you give a link to denaturation of hemocyanin at these -200 °C temps? I regard denaturation as heat-relevant. Egg whites become solid and white because of adding heat for examples.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

George does call them "white shadows" for reasons. Mel's magics are certainly to be seen as a parallel.

Ice made flesh in the way dragons are fire made flesh cannot explain why they managed to go south into the Haunted Forest during summertime, does not explain where they go by day and yet remain close. I think it's a mistake to see them physically as "like dragons but ice made flesh", though it's not to be discarded either.

I think both the dragon concepts and the shadowbaby concepts ought to be incorporated into a theory of the icy Others and then altered to fit the ice concept. But basically it comes down to these major conceptual differences: combustion is a (bio)chemical process, whereas ice-formation is a physical state process. This thematic difference is highlighted by George by using shapeshifter hints in the aGoT Prologue, and hinted at again when people like Tormund talk about the Others. Dragons are magical creatures, but biologically much closer to life as we know it.  They grow, but they don't shapeshift. Dragons don't dissolve or combust when they die either. Others melt and evaporate. There's no flesh, not even bones in evidence in the end when it comes to the Others.

If that were the case, then George wouldn't have said that Dany's feat was a one off. Dany's dragon eggs were petrified. It required magic to undo the petrification. As for the placing of an egg in the crib: that was a post-Maegor invention.

It may be a metaphor in Dany's case of chopping up a snake. But in the other two cases (Varys and Unsullied) we get the same graphic ritual: cutting of testes and penis, burning these on a brazier. In the case of Varys we know a blue flame appeared (which is typical for "carbon monoxide") with a voice. In the case of the Unsullied they mention they have a warrior goddess, and we'll likely learn more tidbits about those. In Dany's case we get a chopped up snake charred on a brazier and fed to her baby dragons at Qarth to help them grow bigger. I'm certain that George repeating this pattern thrice visually is meant to be more than just a "metaphor".

It's hinted at in another way with Stannis and Drogo: Stannis may still have his penis, but Mel hints that Stannis has become close to sterile. Drogo's penis was unresponsive to Dany's attempts.

 

Stannis is already married. Renly has no maidenhead to give to Stannis. This whole paragraph makes no sense.

It’s cool if you have a different interpretation of white walkers, but surely you understand the peach metaphor better than that.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It’s cool if you have a different interpretation of white walkers, but surely you understand the peach metaphor better than that.

I understand the sexual connotations about a peach, and "peaches" are used with a sexual connotation in the books. I don't see the relevance of it though with the OP topic, and I don't see it as Renly offering Stannis a maidenhead.

The OP already makes clear we have quite a different interpretation, and that we regard the Others as an independent lifeform, and it was written after years of reading other theories that in our opinion take away from the literary horror type George has in mind for them.

[Melifeather]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I understand the sexual connotations about a peach, and "peaches" are used with a sexual connotation in the books. I don't see the relevance of it though with the OP topic, and I don't see it as Renly offering Stannis a maidenhead.

The OP already makes clear we have quite a different interpretation, and that we regard the Others as an independent lifeform, and it was written after years of reading other theories that in our opinion take away from the literary horror type George has in mind for them.

The relevance was to illustrate a metaphor within the context of a situation. The entire series has opposites - two sides of the same coin. If one side is symbolically sacrificing penises the other side is selling maidenheads. When the LC gave the Other his “seed” it implies either his semen or the product of his semen - he gave something that begets “life” which is in line with a sacrificial offering.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

The relevance was to illustrate a metaphor within the context of a situation. The entire series has opposites - two sides of the same coin. If one side is symbolically sacrificing penises the other side is selling maidenheads. When the LC gave the Other his “seed” it implies either his semen or the product of his semen - he gave something that begets “life” which is in line with a sacrificial offering.

Giving up testes can be seen as giving seed as well.

The series has opposites, inverse parallels, parallels, a mix, a third way, etc...

I still disagree with Renly selling anyone's maidenhead to Stannis in the peach scene. To me it's used to mean "disfrutar" life.

[The Mother of The Others]

The peach mostly represented Renly being fruity in his conquest style and oblivious to his impending murder.

For a while I disregarded the "seed" aspect of the sacrificial offerings completely, because if the sorcerers of the world really just needed seed they could simply visit the red light district.   What struck me as the real bargaining power behind the act of castration or baby-giving is that you're giving up your future.   It ends that human lineage.   If this makes the Others happy to see some mortals doing the Others' work for them, the mortal may then have some small amount of leverage to say, "now, what will you give me in return for this, my forsaken future?  You've got magic, can I have some of that?"

But if you're spinning a whole theory around the seed being integral then keep on trucking, obviously.   This ^ gives an alternate meaning to seed, possibly, however:  not stealing bio material but transferring to unnatural creatures the human potential to propagate a species.   A future swap.  Like stock market math when someone gaining a dollar means someone lost a dollar.

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

Completely random:

All this talk of peaches is reawakening my case of the creeps about all the 'magic peach' offerings in Labyrinth.

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Giving up testes can be seen as giving seed as well.

The series has opposites, inverse parallels, parallels, a mix, a third way, etc...

I still disagree with Renly selling anyone's maidenhead to Stannis in the peach scene. To me it's used to mean "disfrutar" life.

Renly offered Stannis an alliance and alliances are sealed through marriage. Stannis was already married, so Renly offered the peach as a symbolic gesture of marriage. Renly was unable to secure an alliance with his brother as there was nothing to bind the alliance with, not even their close relation was enough.

This discussion of peaches, maidenheads, and alliances could apply to the LC giving the Other his seed. Whether or not the white walkers are an alien race or not, the giving of his seed could be viewed as transactional and part of making an alliance, as was making her his queen - indicating a marriage. 

You pointed out that the white walkers are “twins” and that you think this means they all look alike. Was the Other Queen a white walker too, a dead human corpse (wight), or a human?

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Renly offered Stannis an alliance and alliances are sealed through marriage. Stannis was already married, so Renly offered the peach as a symbolic gesture of marriage. Renly was unable to secure an alliance with his brother as there was nothing to bind the alliance with, not even their close relation was enough.

They're brothers of the same house. It's not a pact. And Stannis did offer to make him his heir as long as he had no son, which he was not going to get.

3 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You pointed out that the white walkers are “twins” and that you think this means they all look alike. Was the Other Queen a white walker too, a dead human corpse (wight), or a human?

I think of the Corpse Queen as an Other, the Spider Goddess.

[sweetsunray]

5 hours ago, The Mother of The Others said:

The peach mostly represented Renly being fruity in his conquest style and oblivious to his impending murder.

For a while I disregarded the "seed" aspect of the sacrificial offerings completely, because if the sorcerers of the world really just needed seed they could simply visit the red light district.   What struck me as the real bargaining power behind the act of castration or baby-giving is that you're giving up your future.   It ends that human lineage.

This! It is the sacrifice of your future lineage that is important. Castration is giving up your future lineage. Craster giving up his sons is giving up his future lineage. Stannis giving his seed and shadow to make shadowbabies renders him infertile. Dany sacrificed her husband's ability to procreate (even if he was still living and breathing he could not perform anymore) and their son, and is told to be infertile.

I pointed that out in a Varys essay where I noticed the parallels between Varys' castration, the Unsullied and Dany charring the snake.

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/11/03/the-spiders-origin-part-i/#unsullied

 

[It_spelt_Magalhaes]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

This! It is the sacrifice of your future lineage that is important. Castration is giving up your future lineage. Craster giving up his sons is giving up his future lineage. Stannis giving his seed and shadow to make shadowbabies renders him infertile. Dany sacrificed her husband's ability to procreate (even if he was still living and breathing he could not perform anymore) and their son, and is told to be infertile.

I pointed that out in a Varys essay where I noticed the parallels between Varys' castration, the Unsullied and Dany charring the snake.

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/11/03/the-spiders-origin-part-i/#unsullied

 

More spiderlike behavior.

Beyond the well known, females seeing males more as food, as prey, more than sexual partners? There are species where the male sacrifices his penis in order to ensure paternity.

If we translate that into a setting where the female or entity in question has no interest in reproduction in the traditional sense, more in multiplication or increasing power, and the male, or supplicant?, sacrifices his or her reproductive future in an offering of such finality? 

Even if the Others don't much care about humans enduring or surviving as individuals, an offering that compromises survival of the species would be the most valuable a supplicant could give.

[Melifeather]

On 6/14/2019 at 4:32 PM, sweetsunray said:

There's no flesh, not even bones in evidence in the end when it comes to the Others.

But there were flesh and bones - at least Sam saw its bones melt away.

Quote

Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."

Flesh and bones made of ice.

I think GRRM provided the rules for his fantasy world when he had Jaqen inform Arya that the gods required three lives be sacrificed to pay for the three lives that she spared from the flames. Death was needed to pay for their lives. I think this also applies to dragons and white walkers. If these creations are to be "born" then human lives need to be taken in exchange.

[The Mother of The Others]

& The faceless are aware of these rules because they play by them too.  A death pays for a face.

[Ice Queen]

On 6/15/2019 at 7:12 PM, sweetsunray said:

They're brothers of the same house. It's not a pact. And Stannis did offer to make him his heir as long as he had no son, which he was not going to get.

I think of the Corpse Queen as an Other, the Spider Goddess.

So...the Cailleach or Queen of Winter? She is sometimes depicted as a spider. 

[Ice Queen]

On 6/15/2019 at 7:19 PM, sweetsunray said:

This! It is the sacrifice of your future lineage that is important. Castration is giving up your future lineage. Craster giving up his sons is giving up his future lineage. Stannis giving his seed and shadow to make shadowbabies renders him infertile. Dany sacrificed her husband's ability to procreate (even if he was still living and breathing he could not perform anymore) and their son, and is told to be infertile.

I pointed that out in a Varys essay where I noticed the parallels between Varys' castration, the Unsullied and Dany charring the snake.

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2017/11/03/the-spiders-origin-part-i/#unsullied

 

You mention Athena in connection with Arachne who was, of course, turned into a spider.

There is also the legend of Ariadne and Theseus. After saving him with the thread in the Labyrinth, he leaves her to die. She either hangs herself or is rescued by and marries Dionysus (depending on the version).

About Varys. Eunuchs who are castrated as young as Varys says he was don't go bald. Ever. There is no testosterone to produce DHT, which shrinks the hair follicles and causes them to fall out, 

Edit: You also mention Varys' height as 5'8". In reality, eunuchs are huge men, much taller than average. There's a reason for this: boys castrated before puberty have no estradiol to tell the epiphyseal (growth) plates to close and fuse at the proper time, so they just keep growing and growing. (And why girls who start their periods at a younger age are shorter and have shorter legs.) As an example, Farinelli was determined to have been 6'4".

Either Martin messed up, or there's more going on with Varys than we know. 

 

[sweetsunray]

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

But there were flesh and bones - at least Sam saw its bones melt away.

Flesh and bones made of ice.

I know that quote, as I quoted it in the OP. I'm not sure that what Sam calls "flesh" and "bones" is actually flesh and bones.

When I said "there is no flesh and  bones" in evidence, I mean after the spell is broken. It all melted away. There's nothing left anymore. If there were real human bones, at least those would have remained. They didn't. So, no human origin.

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think GRRM provided the rules for his fantasy world when he had Jaqen inform Arya that the gods required three lives be sacrificed to pay for the three lives that she spared from the flames. Death was needed to pay for their lives. I think this also applies to dragons and white walkers. If these creations are to be "born" then human lives need to be taken in exchange.

Jaquen is full of $hit when he says that, jmho. He had something to sell, and wanted to make Arya curious.

1 - Plenty of people died that night at the fort. Why don't they count?

2 - Arya, Gendry and Hot Pie avoided death too. Why didn't Jaquen then demand 6 names to be killed?

3 - Jaquen is a FM, not a rhollrist. And in order to kill a price must be paid. Arya got 3 kills, not because she saved 3 people, but because she risked her life to throw an axe at them so they could save themselves. Euron got a kill because he threw a dragon egg to the bottom of the sea. The waif's father got a kill, because he gave his forever physically harmed daughter up to the HoBaW (which was to the waif's benefit) + half his fortune (she was his heir anyway... he provided half his fortune for her, and got to keep the rest for his younger child). Etc.