Aegon VI as a ruler

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Br16 said:

Sometimes it takes a crook to catch a crook. 

But it doesn't make the crook a proper ruler after the crook got caught.

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It shows that Aegon's much vaunted education was inadequate. He's basically bringing WWI tactics to WWII. 

No it doesn't make his education inadequate. No education can prepare for whack-job like Euron. At least he goes to Westeros with all that Tyrion knows and read about dragons, and he likely will have the Dornish on his side, who knew how to deal with dragons 300 years ago already. And wars in Westeros are still fought with swords. Euron still has men fighting for him. None of them are magical. None of them wear VS armor. None of them drink shade of the evening. And Euron still cannot boltfire someone dead by magic. Dany still uses men to conquer and control, nor is she invulnerable.

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My opinion is this: In the past, George could afford to be himself only, to be fearless. You have to be in order to win, to be a pioneer. He did and he succeeded. Now he is at the pinnacle of his success. All writers say they write for themselves, but was there ever an artist who did not yearn for acclaim? He is now at the cross roads with a lot to lose, endings are always hard for gardener style writers, and what happens in TWOW and ADOS will make or break his Magnum Opus. He only has one shot, that's why TWOW is extensively delayed. Moreover, at this stage, the opinion of such a large and adoring fanbase, the sentiment of all those dedicated fans salivating for a satisfying ending, is a factor that cannot be simply ignored. Readers are the circulating blood that keeps a book alive, and no man is an island immune to public expectations. Thus, while I cannot say for certain, my gut feeling is that he test drived, because people don't always say what they do, or do what they say.

Your gut feeling means little, as it requires knowledge of the man and his writing (not watching some derived and dilluted show version that butchered his writing from S5 onwards) to have an accurate gut feeling. The show already veered off significantly of what was actually on page, is far off base of what any analysis of textual evidence suggests, and went with what the merest of speed surface reading could give as ideas of what's going to happen. Nothing of what you have written so far shows your gut feeling is based on anything else but being a show-fan, who got a hangover from S8 and now hopes the books will give you another story where Dany has a super-duper heroic future. The books will be different, not because George "tweeks" his planned ending based on s8 reactions, but because the show was never much accurate in characterization and storytelling anyhow. 

And that's the last thing I will say in this section of the forum. Please take your show discussion to the proper sections of the forum. The show is not canon and off bounds in the book forum.

[Br16]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

But it doesn't make the crook a proper ruler after the crook got caught.

It makes him a ruler that reigns, and that's all that matters. 

6 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No it doesn't make his education inadequate. No education can prepare for whack-job like Euron.

If he read The Prince, he would be more prepared for the realities of Westeros. after all, Italian politics back then was just as cutthroat and unfortunate. But too bad for him, that book does not exist in Planetos. So he is stuck with his preppy but inadequate education. He's proper, but he won't last as a ruler.

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Your gut feeling means little, as it requires knowledge of the man and his writing (not wathcing some derived and dilluted show version that butchered his writing from S5 onwards) to have an accurate gut feeling.

Perhaps it means much, or perhaps it is as you say, but either way it is a reasonable stance based on human nature. You base your opinions purely on how others present themselves to you, I base mine on certain natural realities of life.

Moreover, what better use for a throwaway show than to test drive with? 

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, Br16 said:

It makes him a ruler that reigns, and that's all that matters. 

Not to me. I don't care so much who wins the throne for the IT itself. I care who manages to make Westeros stable again and can provide for justice, because if there's something that has been an issue from the very first chapter after the first prologue it's providing true justice. Even Ned Stark failed in that when he didn't believe Gared's warning. Aegon is likely some of the best candidates since Robert died to bind and heal the realm, if there had not been an insurgence of magic. Tommen might have been a good king if he had been much much older. As it is, he's just a decent boy who stamps documents without understanding them whatsoever and with Kevan dead that means more of Cersei's shenanigans. Dany's a good conquerer, and she tried to wear floppy ears for peace, but was blind to how little an actual threat that circus army outside of her walls truly is and despises the amount of compromises it takes to forge such a peace with a non-Dothraki culture. She's a fighter imo, not a ruler. And if she had eaten of those locusts, she would be dead. Her not eating those locusts had little to do with education or street smarts, but with the stupidity of the poisoner of offering her poisoned food she might consider inedible. Had it been a sausage on sticks though. Dany doesn't even have an actual food taster in function for this.

Blaming or praising education on stuff you cannot reasonably prepare for is just a silly argument, and I already pointed out how widowmaker's argument was oxymoronic.

As for Aegon going to Westeros instead of Meereen. Well, Quentyn's POV and story served to show how Tyrion was correct about it being a bad idea to seek out Dany for her hand in marriage in Meereen. She would have distrusted him, wasn't interested in conquering Westeros, and if an army of Dornish can't sway her from marrying Hizdahr then neither would have Aegon's GC. That it will be his downfall will be majorly orchestrated by Tyrion's advice as Moroqqo foreshadows, the news of Quentyn's death, and Dany ending up seeing Illyrio as a traitor and Aegon as fake. Regardless, George means Aegon to end up dying, and in doing so will serve to contrast the aspiring ruler's fitness for ruling. Aegon started out conquering Westeros to have a better chance to ally with Dany, but circumstances and perceptions on both sides of the Narrow Sea will end up driving them further away.

32 minutes ago, Br16 said:

If he read The Prince, he would be more prepared for the realities of Westeros. after all, Italian politics back then was just as cutthroat and unfortunate. But too bad for him, that book does not exist in Planetos. So he is stuck with his preppy but inadequate education. He's proper, but he won't last as a ruler.

You don't think the histories of Targaryen kings is comparable to The Prince? BTW I once analysed how much Varys has in common with machiavelli in some archived thread in this forum. The Prince itself died before he got to rule. No ruler lasts. And as I said, I don't think Aegon survives the series. It just doesn't detract from him imo.

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Perhaps it means much, or perhaps it is as you say, but either way it is a reasonable stance based on human nature. You base your opinions purely on how others present themselves to you, I base mine on certain natural realities of life.

Actually, it's not about "presentation". It's about learning how a certain person's mind works. George writes patterns since he was a kid. Certain natural realities of life are that if a mind pattern and focus manifests since childhood throughout adult life, it's unlikely to alter when the man's in his 70s. That's a natural reality of life.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 7/8/2019 at 10:41 PM, Andrew Yang for President said:

True, but it is a start towards progress.  Or would you rather people sit on their arses and watch the Ghiscari continue to practice slavery because of the excuse that ending slavery isn't going to solve every social inequality in the world.  Look, just because the abolition of slavery won't solve every human misery is a poor reason to not do anything about it.  It reflects poorly on Westeros because they sat on their fat bums when they should have been fighting against slavery instead of fighting among themselves for the stupidest of reasons.  I look down on Catelyn's decision to arrest a Lannister to get revenge for Bran.  I look down on Jon's decision to put the Night's Watch into an awkward position just so he can rescue Arya.  I applaud Dany for her efforts in helping the slaves become free.  

I agree.

 

[Aldarion]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Not to me. I don't care so much who wins the throne for the IT itself. I care who manages to make Westeros stable again and can provide for justice, because if there's something that has been an issue from the very first chapter after the first prologue it's providing true justice. Even Ned Stark failed in that when he didn't believe Gared's warning. Aegon is likely some of the best candidates since Robert died to bind and heal the realm, if there had not been an insurgence of magic. Tommen might have been a good king if he had been much much older. As it is, he's just a decent boy who stamps documents without understanding them whatsoever and with Kevan dead that means more of Cersei's shenanigans. Dany's a good conquerer, and she tried to wear floppy ears for peace, but was blind to how little an actual threat that circus army outside of her walls truly is and despises the amount of compromises it takes to forge such a peace with a non-Dothraki culture. She's a fighter imo, not a ruler. And if she had eaten of those locusts, she would be dead. Her not eating those locusts had little to do with education or street smarts, but with the stupidity of the poisoner of offering her poisoned food she might consider inedible. Had it been a sausage on sticks though. Dany doesn't even have an actual food taster in function for this.

Blaming or praising education on stuff you cannot reasonably prepare for is just a silly argument, and I already pointed out how widowmaker's argument was oxymoronic.

As for Aegon going to Westeros instead of Meereen. Well, Quentyn's POV and story served to show how Tyrion was correct about it being a bad idea to seek out Dany for her hand in marriage in Meereen. She would have distrusted him, wasn't interested in conquering Westeros, and if an army of Dornish can't sway her from marrying Hizdahr then neither would have Aegon's GC. That it will be his downfall will be majorly orchestrated by Tyrion's advice as Moroqqo foreshadows, the news of Quentyn's death, and Dany ending up seeing Illyrio as a traitor and Aegon as fake. Regardless, George means Aegon to end up dying, and in doing so will serve to contrast the aspiring ruler's fitness for ruling. Aegon started out conquering Westeros to have a better chance to ally with Dany, but circumstances and perceptions on both sides of the Narrow Sea will end up driving them further away.

To be fair, Quentyn was described as "plain" and it appears that Dany does place a lot in physical appearance and daring. So Aegon at least would have been more desireable - but that doesn't change the fact that she was a) already planning marriage and b) not planning to go to Westeros at that point.

BTW, where is that Moroqqo foreshadowing?

And yeah, I agree with what you wrote. Question is, was there any way for them not to be driven apart after Daenerys ended up in Mereen?

[sweetsunray]

30 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

And yeah, I agree with what you wrote. Question is, was there any way for them not to be driven apart after Daenerys ended up in Mereen?

If she had sailed for Pentos at the beginning of aSoS, Illyrio could have brought them together imo. And that was his intention when he sent Belwas and Selmy to get her. The time it would have required for her to sail to Pentos would have been enough for Aegon to arrive at Illyrio's, and Illyrio would regall her with having acquired the Golden Company (controlling the background story more). When he sent both Selmy and Belwas and the ships, Illyrio was clearly trying to even out the difference in retinue between Dany and Aegon. Not too many so it wouldn't look like a team attempting to overpower, but just enough to give her three loyal men of her own (if you include Jorah). I think Jorah sensed that Illyrio intended a far better match for Dany this time around, which is why he was so hellbent on keeping her away from Illyrio.

30 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

To be fair, Quentyn was described as "plain" and it appears that Dany does place a lot in physical appearance and daring. So Aegon at least would have been more desireable - but that doesn't change the fact that she was a) already planning marriage and b) not planning to go to Westeros at that point.

True, that Quentyn was plain... but Hizdahr was worse in her opinion I think. She just had invested too much already in Meereen. And Aegon wouldn't have persuaded her from it. Nor could he ensure her a peace with the insurgents. He could only have helped out with the army besieging Meereen.

The Moqorro foreshadowing (sorry miswrote his name)

 

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"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

"Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?" Tyrion was almost flattered. (aDwD, Tyrion VIII)

 

 

[Aldarion]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 If she had sailed for Pentos at the beginning of aSoS, Illyrio could have brought them together imo. And that was his intention when he sent Belwas and Selmy to get her. The time it would have required for her to sail to Pentos would have been enough for Aegon to arrive at Illyrio's, and Illyrio would regall her with having acquired the Golden Company. I think Jorah sensed that Illyrio intended a far better match for Dany this time around, which is why he was so hellbent on keeping her away from Illyrio.

So basically Ser Friendzone ruined everything for everyone. That is definitely Martin.

5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

True, that Quentyn was plain... but Hizdahr was worse in her opinion I think. She just had invested too much already in Meereen. And Aegon wouldn't have persuaded her from it. Nor could he ensure her a peace with the insurgents. He could only have helped out with the army besieging Meereen.

Agreed. That would still mean that he would be around when she finally got fed up with Mereen, but it would require knowledge of future, so yeah.

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 The Moqorro foreshadowing (sorry miswrote his name)

Thanks.

 

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

So basically Ser Friendzone ruined everything for everyone. That is definitely Martin.

Yup, he did. That his fear of Illyrio is marriage related is made clear by the fact that Jorah kissed her when he made his argument. He wanted her all to himself, and not risk her getting to know a handsome suitor more of her age with an army and looks. And the manner he was a broken man once he learned Dany had wed a lord of Meereen.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

Agreed. That would still mean that he would be around when she finally got fed up with Mereen, but it would require knowledge of future, so yeah.

Well, and Aegon waiting around in Meereen while she's wed to Hizdahr and being queen there, would have harmed his status to claim the Iron Throne. In that way, Tyrion's remarks in that regard were to the point. Unwed and as guest, waiting for her to decide to finally conquer Westeros, he at best could hope to be her heir.

[Aldarion]

12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yup, he did. That his fear of Illyrio is marriage related is made clear by the fact that Jorah kissed her when he made his argument. He wanted her all to himself, and not risk her getting to know a handsome suitor more of her age with an army and looks. And the manner he was a broken man once he learned Dany had wed a lord of Meereen.

So I guess question now is whether there is any way to repair the damage done. Granted, knowing how Martin writes - and how selfish love ruins everything for everyone repeatedly in his story (Rhaegar and Lyanna, Robb and Jeyne etc.) - I don't think it will happen, but... also, it will be interesting to see conflict between Jorah and Barristan. Jorah loves Daenerys, while Barristan is quite dedicated to Rhaegar, and Aegon is (presenting himself as) Rhaegar's son. That could lead to some interesting developments.

7 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 Well, and Aegon waiting around in Meereen while she's wed to Hizdahr and being queen there, would have harmed his status to claim the Iron Throne. In that way, Tyrion's remarks in that regard were to the point. Unwed and as guest, waiting for her to decide to finally conquer Westeros, he at best could hope to be her heir.

Agreed. He did best of bad situation... well, best for him would have been abandoning conquest.

[sweetsunray]

4 minutes ago, Aldarion said:

So I guess question now is whether there is any way to repair the damage done. Granted, knowing how Martin writes - and how selfish love ruins everything for everyone repeatedly in his story (Rhaegar and Lyanna, Robb and Jeyne etc.) - I don't think it will happen, but... also, it will be interesting to see conflict between Jorah and Barristan. Jorah loves Daenerys, while Barristan is quite dedicated to Rhaegar, and Aegon is (presenting himself as) Rhaegar's son. That could lead to some interesting developments.

If Selmy lives, he might mediate... but I'm kindof certain Selmy will die, before Dany returns, possibly at Meereen and taken out by Shakaz, but not before he takes Tyrion on as part of a council. Selmy's POV won't be needed much anymore once Tyrion merges with the men who hold Meereen in Dany's absence. Nor am I convinced that they will keep hanging around in Meereen, not when the pale mare is going to spread inside the city after bodies have been catapulted across the walls. Most of them believe Dany's dead. At the end of aDwD even Selmy started to doubt whether she survived. And Tyrion wants to get back asap to Westeros to crush Cersei.

Here's what I think will happen. Selmy will reluctantly become to believe that Dany died. Tyrion reveals Aegon's existence. The pale mare epidemic spreads. The Tattered Prince wants Pentos. And then there's the news that Volantis aims to attack them. They'll have to take on Volantis, if Tyrion and Selmy mean to get Dany's army and allies to go to Westeros. Victarion manages to get control of a dragon with the horn, and Selmy with the help of Tyrion manage to make a deal with Vic promising the riches of Volantis. So, Selmy makes the decision to set out for Volantis (attack them), and then to Pentos, but gets killed before leaving. Jorah will insist on finding Dany, not believing she died, and so he'll be able to inform her they all left to attack Volantis. So, by the time she resurfaces, there's no Selmy anymore, just Tyrion and Jorah.

[Lord Varys]

Tyrion's Dany advice to Aegon makes no sense at the point it was given. When they talk, nobody on the Shy Maid has any intention of go east. They just sail down the Rhoyne, intending to wait for Dany at Volantis. The plan is to make her the beggar (with the dragons) who comes to Aegon at Volantis and is in (desperate) need of an army - which he would provide in form of the Golden Company.

George moved that dialogue scene too much. It should have come after they had learned the news that Dany chose to remain in Meereen. At the time Aegon bristles about being 'a beggar' going to his aunt the queen nobody on the boat saw Dany as the queen of Meereen. They thought she would sack that city, too, and then move on west, either by land or sea.

In that sense this entire scene is pointless since Aegon should actually have countered Tyrion's 'advice' along the lines of:

'What are you moron talking about? We are not going east, we are going west. We wait for my aunt and then we take the Iron Throne. I won't go to her, she will come to me. She just doesn't know it yet. And dragons or not, she will kiss my feet because I will give her the army she needs.'

Originally George had the Golden Company meeting in another Tyrion chapter (if you go back to the old NAB entries you can find him writing about a chapter from POV which he rewrote from another POV while ripping out the original POV entirely - that's the Golden Company meeting), and one imagines that the Aegon-Tyrion conversation would have taken place either in Strickland's tent with Tyrion advising the entire war council, or between deliberations. In any case, it would have taken place after everybody had learned that they had to go to Meereen to meet Daenerys - something they clearly did not think to be doing while they were on the Rhoyne.

[Br16]

15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

George writes patterns since he was a kid. Certain natural realities of life are that if a mind pattern and focus manifests since childhood throughout adult life, it's unlikely to alter when the man's in his 70s. That's a natural reality of life.

You sweet summer child. Big money and peak popularity changes everything. And he has more of both now than ever before.

[BlackLightning]

I think Aegon will be popular not good.

And even then the popularity will fade. Once he starts making stupid decisions, once Connington's condition skydives, once Arianne catches on to what's really happening, once Daenerys lays waste to his armies, once Jon proves that the Others are real, etc.

I think Aegon is going to be ambushed and killed by Euron and Cersei while everyone's back is turned fighting the Others and trying to figure out what to do with Jon's identity.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Br16 said:

You sweet summer child. Big money and peak popularity changes everything. And he has more of both now than ever before.

Keep on believing that big money will turn George into an insecure fanfic-writer who checks every hour whether someone liked his newest chapter. You clearly have no clue about writing do you?

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion's Dany advice to Aegon makes no sense at the point it was given. When they talk, nobody on the Shy Maid has any intention of go east. They just sail down the Rhoyne, intending to wait for Dany at Volantis. The plan is to make her the beggar (with the dragons) who comes to Aegon at Volantis and is in (desperate) need of an army - which he would provide in form of the Golden Company.

George moved that dialogue scene too much. It should have come after they had learned the news that Dany chose to remain in Meereen. At the time Aegon bristles about being 'a beggar' going to his aunt the queen nobody on the boat saw Dany as the queen of Meereen. They thought she would sack that city, too, and then move on west, either by land or sea.

In that sense this entire scene is pointless since Aegon should actually have countered Tyrion's 'advice' along the lines of:

'What are you moron talking about? We are not going east, we are going west. We wait for my aunt and then we take the Iron Throne. I won't go to her, she will come to me. She just doesn't know it yet. And dragons or not, she will kiss my feet because I will give her the army she needs.'

Originally George had the Golden Company meeting in another Tyrion chapter (if you go back to the old NAB entries you can find him writing about a chapter from POV which he rewrote from another POV while ripping out the original POV entirely - that's the Golden Company meeting), and one imagines that the Aegon-Tyrion conversation would have taken place either in Strickland's tent with Tyrion advising the entire war council, or between deliberations. In any case, it would have taken place after everybody had learned that they had to go to Meereen to meet Daenerys - something they clearly did not think to be doing while they were on the Rhoyne.

You're correct that at the time Tyrion gave the advice, such a decision would have been nonsensical. Aegon didn't decide it then though, only during the GC meeting, when they knew Dany was still in Meereen, and it made sense then from Aegon's POV to heed Tyrion's advice, and Quentyn's storyline proved that she was on a set course then. Also, while Aegon did think of himself as the claimant, Dany wasn't seen as a begger: they knew she had 3 dragons and an army. That's why Aegon was to unite with her. Tyrion did manage to make him realize that Dany might be proud, a woman of independence, and that she might not be impressed with him.

[Br16]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

Keep on believing that big money will turn George into an insecure fanfic-writer who checks every hour whether someone liked his newest chapter

Your hero worship blinds you. 

A lot of titans do things they say are beneath them, that's part of the facade. And I bet he checks what people are saying online. 

If he did not love money, why so many side projects? He's already working on the pilot for the Prequel. He's doing other video games. He's got things going with Hulu, is executive producing Okorafor's adaptation show, and that Starport Graphic novel among other things.

[sweetsunray]

 

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If he did not love money, why so many side projects? He's already working on the pilot for the Prequel. He's doing other video games. He's got things going with Hulu, is executive producing Okorafor's adaptation show, and that Starport Graphic novel among other things.

Side projects are normal for his type of personality, and he always had side projects - before and after big money.

And nowhere did I claim he does not love money. My point was that he already has a fortune, and therefore doesn't need to be anxious like an insecure fanfic writer whatsoever.

But sure, keep thinking I'm the sweet summer child, or that George is my personal hero, and that George is an anxious fanfic writer because he has a fortune now, if it comforts you not to be honest with yourself that you have to believe all this of other people, because you cling to Dany having a happy-clappy ending.

[Br16]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

My point was that he already has a fortune, and therefore doesn't need to be anxious like an insecure fanfic writer whatsoever.

The funny thing is, when his situation was normal, he could afford to disregard fans because being cautious is useless at that stage. Being bold is better.

Now he has lots of money, and a popularity that will earn him more lucrative deals if he could keep the adoration going.

Oftentimes, the more money/fame you have, the more you want, and the more you fear losing both.  

 

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Br16 said:

The funny thing is, when his situation was normal, he could afford to disregard fans because being cautious is useless at that stage. Being bold is better.

Now he has lots of money, and a popularity that will earn him more lucrative deals if he could keep the adoration going.

Oftentimes, the more money/fame you have, the more you want, and the more you fear losing both. 

 The lucrative deals keep coming even after a disastrous S8, even after most book fans consider the show the abomination since at least s5.

Keep on clinging to the hope that George will care about you, the Dany fan, to write the ending for Dany you wish for.