Why did Jon Arryn reward the lannisters ?

[Mario Seddy]

Why didn't Jon Arryn condemn or punish the lannisters for their crimes like jaime killing the king or the murder of elia and her children aegon and rhaenys. Was he truly an honorable man as ned thinks of him. Couldn't he have persuaded Robert to give a little punishment to the lannister ? 

[Nagini's Neville]

I think in the end King Bobby just did whatever he wanted to do. And Jon Arryn might have been more interested in forming alliances and upholding the peace, than punishing war crimes. A lot of ppl were just forgiven, if they were willing to bend the knee. (Barristan Selmy )And Jaime killing Aerys and even elia's and the children's death was in the end in the interest of Bobby and Jon. Maybe they didn't like the way it happened, but in the end it was to their advantage. Robert even wanted to murder Dany. The Lannisters are a very influential house with a lot of money. And I guess, at the latest after being betrothed to Cersei "punishing" the Lannisters would not have been an option anymore.

Ned was very young, when he last saw Jon Arryn. He was very biased towards Robert as well and also biased when it came to Lysa's and Jon's marriage. So imo it is very possible, that he also saw Jon in a more favorable light.

[kissdbyfire]

42 minutes ago, Mario Seddy said:

Why didn't Jon Arryn condemn or punish the lannisters for their crimes like jaime killing the king or the murder of elia and her children aegon and rhaenys. Was he truly an honorable man as ned thinks of him. Couldn't he have persuaded Robert to give a little punishment to the lannister ? 

Jon Arryn is the bloke who brokered the deal w/ Tywin for Cersei to marry Robert. Was he disgusted by the atrociously brutal murders of Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon? Did he see said vicious crimes as “casualties of war”? We don’t know. We can make an educated guess about his reaction to Jaime killing Aerys, the mad psycho who had not only cowardly executed Rickard and Brandon, but also demanded Arryn to send Ned’s and Robert’s heads to him: good riddance. 

But once all this went down, he must have realised Robert would defo need strong backing as king, and Tywin is very powerful and very rich, so, there you go. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

If the Targaryen loyalists decided to go to war and place Viserys on the throne, then Tywin becomes a deterrent. Marry Cersei to Robert and you have an alliance that will make people think twice about trying to overthrow the new regime. 

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I think in the end King Bobby just did whatever he wanted to do. And Jon Arryn might have been more interested in forming alliances and upholding the peace, than punishing war crimes. A lot of ppl were just forgiven, if they were willing to bend the knee. (Barristan Selmy )And Jaime killing Aerys and even elia's and the children's death was in the end in the interest of Bobby and Jon. Maybe they didn't like the way it happened, but in the end it was to their advantage.

I don't know how and why it was to their advantage.

 

5 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 Ned was very young, when he last saw Jon Arryn. He was very biased towards Robert as well and also biased when it came to Lysa's and Jon's marriage. So imo it is very possible, that he also saw Jon in a more favorable light.

I don't reemember Ned being biased about Lysa and Jon's marriage, because Ned never rode south but to warring and dying and Lysa wasn't in both situations.

Ned is biased towards Robert, he remembers how Robert was back in those were the days and compares him to what he's now but Ned is pretty disgusted by Robert's behaviour many times.

 

@Alexis-something-Rose

Marry Robert and Stannis to both Hightowers and Florents and you've broken the loyalist faction forever and after what Tywin pulled in KL, he had to stick with Robert no matter what, Jon Arryn fucked up there imo.

[Nagini's Neville]

4 hours ago, frenin said:

I don't know how and why it was to their advantage.

 

I don't reemember Ned being biased about Lysa and Jon's marriage, because Ned never rode south but to warring and dying and Lysa wasn't in both situations.

Ned is biased towards Robert, he remembers how Robert was back in those were the days and compares him to what he's now but Ned is pretty disgusted by Robert's behaviour many times.

Well, better for them, if all Targaryens are dead or why do you reckon Robert wanted Dany dead ?

Cat and Ned thought Jon and lysa had a happy marriage - that's what I mean.  If they were more observant it might have occurred to them Lysa was not telling the truth about Jon's death.

Ned wasn't really THAT great when is came to reading ppl

 

[Bael's Bastard]

12 hours ago, Mario Seddy said:

Why didn't Jon Arryn condemn or punish the lannisters for their crimes like jaime killing the king or the murder of elia and her children aegon and rhaenys. Was he truly an honorable man as ned thinks of him. Couldn't he have persuaded Robert to give a little punishment to the lannister ? 

Keeping Jaime in the KG was probably the best option, as it maintained his pre-war status quo as a hostage to the crown, and encouraged Tywin keep faith.

Gregor's role might have been known/believed, but Tywin makes clear that there is no witness to corroborate his role in the murder of Elia and the kids.

All in all, the Lannisters threw in with Robert, while Dorne fought against him, however begrudgingly they served Aerys at the end.

There would have been little benefit to starting something with Tywin, just to appease a Dorne that wasn't likely to offer much support to the new regime.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that someone in the Lannister army was scapegoated just to make a show of holding someone accountable. I don't think it's very likely, but possible.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Well, better for them, if all Targaryens are dead or why do you reckon Robert wanted Dany dead ?

 

Yes he did, also, he wasn't too much othered, else Dany would e a coprse in Essos.

 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 Cat and Ned thought Jon and lysa had a happy marriage - that's what I mean.  If they were more observant it might have occurred to them Lysa was not telling the truth about Jon's death.

 

Did Cat ever mented Ned?? If so is understandable, Cat and Ned haven't seen Jon and Lysa in a decade.

And wtf?? How could they know Lysa was lying??

 

 

2 hours ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 Ned wasn't really THAT great when is came to reading ppl

 

You talked abbout Robert and Jon Arryn tho, people he grew up with.

 

 

@Bael's Bastard

Quote

Gregor's role might have been known/believed, but Tywin makes clear that there is no witness to corroborate the murder of Elia and the kids.

That's what Tywin wants to believe but yet.

 

Gods, I hope not. "Wars and weddings have kept us well occupied, Prince Oberyn. I fear no one has yet had the time to look into murders sixteen years stale, dreadful as they were. We shall, of course, just as soon as we may. Any help that Dorne might be able to provide to restore the king's peace would only hasten the beginning of my lord father's inquiry—"
"Dwarf," said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, "spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer's show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane . . . but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that." He smiled. "An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?"
"No," Tyrion admitted warily.

 

Is cristal clear that the only reason Gregor was not convicted  was because of Tywin protection and more importantly, Robert's indifference.

 

 

@Nagini's Neville

If Robert truly wanted her dead, his Hand couldn't have done shit to stop him, as we see in agot.

[Nagini's Neville]

2 minutes ago, frenin said:

Yes he did, also, he wasn't too much othered, else Dany would e a coprse in Essos.

 

Well, his Hand did his best to stop him. And he only changed his mind, when he was about to die 

[Nagini's Neville]

5 minutes ago, frenin said:

Did Cat ever mented Ned?? If so is understandable, Cat and Ned haven't seen Jon and Lysa in a decade.

And wtf?? How could they know Lysa was lying??

 

 

You talked abbout Robert and Jon Arryn tho, people he grew up with.

Chill, I'm not saying they should have known Lysa was lying, just if both of them (or at least Cat) payed more attention, they might have noticed how unhappy she was with this match and marriage. At least Cat could have noticed and ned and her talked about everything it seemed. 

And it's easy to idolize ppl you grow up with- that's why I said he saw Jon last, when he was very young.

And in general Ned just wasn't the best judge of character, not suspicious enough : LF, Cersei, Robert.

GRRM said himself, it can be hard for honorable ppl to imagine others aren't like that. That was Ned's bias.

[Bael's Bastard]

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

Is cristal clear that the only reason Gregor was not convicted  was because of Tywin protection and more importantly, Robert's indifference.

What's clear is that there is no witness or proof to hold Gregor responsible for his crimes. And if he had ever been accused it almost certainly would have come to a trial by combat.

"Lesser beasts." Lord Tywin's fingers laced together under his chin. "Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies."

"Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who . . ."

"He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King's Landing."

— ASOS: Tyrion VI

[Nagini's Neville]

18 minutes ago, frenin said:

@Nagini's Neville

If Robert truly wanted her dead, his Hand couldn't have done shit to stop him, as we see in agot.

of course, it was nothing he was comfortable with and he valued Ned's advise a lot. Doesn't mean, that he was going to punish the House, that had already committed the crimes, and who's alliance had nothing but advantages for him. And also the murders did- the fewer the heirs - the lesser the potential thread 

[frenin]

11 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Chill, I'm not saying they should have known Lysa was lying, just if both of them (or at least Cat) payed more attention, they might have noticed how unhappy she was with this match and marriage. At least Cat could have noticed and ned and her talked about everything it seemed. 

 

But how could they?? Their visits would be very short and spacely in time. Sorry about the outburst tho my bad.

 

13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 And it's easy to idolize ppl you grow up with- that's why I said he saw Jon last, when he was very young.

 

But not to lie about them, Robert is the one getting the blame and having a falling out with Ned that not even Jon Arryn could stop, not Jon Arryn.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

 And in general Ned just wasn't the best judge of character, not suspicious enough : LF, Cersei, Robert.

 

You keep saying Robert, but Robert, who is the only relevant in this conversation because Ned neither grew up with LF nor Cersei, is judged hasrly for his  faults by Ned, where is him wrongfully biased.

 

 

7 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

of course, it was nothing he was comfortable with and he valued Ned's advise a lot. Doesn't mean, that he was going to punish the House, that had already committed the crimes, and who's alliance had nothing but advantages for him. And also the murders did- the fewer the heirs - the lesser the potential thread 

I didn't said he had to punish the Lannisters but not giving positions of power.

 

 

9 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

What's clear is that there is no witness or proof to hold Gregor responsible for his crimes. And if he had ever been accused it almost certainly would have come to a trial by combat.

"Lesser beasts." Lord Tywin's fingers laced together under his chin. "Ser Gregor has served us well. No other knight in the realm inspires such terror in our enemies."

"Oberyn knows that Gregor was the one who . . ."

"He knows nothing. He has heard tales. Stable gossip and kitchen calumnies. He has no crumb of proof. Ser Gregor is certainly not about to confess to him. I mean to keep him well away for so long as the Dornishmen are in King's Landing."

 

There is no evidence, 15 years later but sure l there would've been witnesesses when Tywin offered the dead children to Robert.

 

[Bael's Bastard]

19 minutes ago, frenin said:

There is no evidence, 15 years later but sure l there would've been witnesesses when Tywin offered the dead children to Robert.

I doubt Gregor left any witnesses to his crimes. Lannister soldiers might have known he and Lorch were the ones sent up there, and that they had to have been the ones to do it, but I doubt any witnesses survived, save perhaps Varys's birds.