Why didn't Tyrion consummate his marriage with Sansa?

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

We've been through this already but no, not because she is obeying, because she willingly takes her clothes off & doesn't speak any word or show any outward sign of not consenting. 

it's not my fault that we go through this again and a again. IMO it's just baffling, that taking of her clothes in a forced marriage is considered "consenting"- but okay

Her not wanting to marry him was not consenting. Her giving in now is not consenting.

And even when she takes of her clothes she asked him and he tells her yes.

But even if we say, she took of her clothes herself. It is still him, who tells her to get on the bed and doesn't allow her a blanket. After she told him she is afraid in a forced marriage. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

The difference it makes to the discussion is that Tyrion probably will try to rape Sansa the next go around and will make a claim to take Winterfell, which would make the soon-to-be-newly reunited Stark kids homeless and penniless...again

I doubt it but I've been wrong before. 

I'm not saying it's not worth discussing, I'm in for discussing whatever. I'm just saying it doesn't have any bearing on what he did or didn't do the night of their wedding. 

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Killing Tywin and Shae sent Tyrion over the edge and I don't think he's going to be what he once was. Especially not after what is likely and bound to happen in The Winds of Winter

Yeah maybe not. He has certainly gotten darker as time goes on. 

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion is an enemy of the Stark family and, more than that, has been their enemy for quite some time. And it will not change. His interests have always clashed with Stark interests.

Why would you doubt that

I wasn't aware I was doubting his interests clashing with the Starks but it should be noted that he, personally, has not been an enemy to house Stark, his family has. Now that he is no longer a part of his family he doesn't have any reason to go against the Starks unless they do something directly against him. Doesn't mean he won't, he might especially if he continues on his dark path but there is no reason to.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

it's not my fault that we go through this again and a again. IMO it's just baffling, that taking of her clothes in a forced marriage is considered "consenting"- but okay

I'm not saying it's your fault, I'm just saying we have discussed it to the death & just aren't likely to agree there. 

5 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Her not wanting to marry him was not consenting. Her giving in now is not consenting

She doesn't give in, she suggests it. She offers. 

6 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And even when she takes of her clothes she asked him and he tells her yes

Yes, after the third time she asks him, he says yes. Should he have said no? They are supposed to be consummating their marriage. 

6 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But even if we say, she took of her clothes herself. It is still him, who tells her to get on the bed and doesn't allow her a blanket. After she told him she is afraid in a forced marriage

He tells her & she does. She doesn't express any sign other than assent. 

He asks if she is afraid, she says yes & then recognizes he is afraid too. She doesn't say I'm afraid because I'm in a forced marriage. She is afraid because she is getting ready to have sex for the first time. 

[BlackLightning]

@Lyanna<3Rhaegar I really like you but the way you are looking at this whole Tyrion/Sansa relationship is disturbing.

Sansa makes it clear over and over and over and over again that she does not want any parts of Tyrion, his penis and the Lannister family as a whole. She almost had to be dragged to the altar. She cried the entire ceremony and publicly refused to kneel before Tyrion.

Tyrion literally asks Sansa if both he and his desire to consummate their marriage frightens her and Sansa says yes. Sansa tries to cover herself repeatedly not out of shyness or playfulness but out of terror. She is shaking so much she can't even take off her clothes properly.

Tyrion knows she wants no parts of him but is determined to make her want him anyway. He plays it cool though and wants her to come to him willingly. Notice how she never does?

Cersei, Tywin, Joffrey and everyone else involved in the wedding knows that Sansa wants no parts of Tyrion or said marriage...but they repeatedly express that they don't care because it either serves their interests or entertains them.

As it was previously said earlier, this isn't even a normal arranged marriage where one party isn't fond of the other party. At least in an arranged marriage, the parties are helping their families, materially benefiting themselves and/or doing a service to society at large. Here, Sansa is hurting her family and EVERYONE KNOWS IT...

Do you not see the problem in any of this? Like someone said in the thread earlier, the Sansa/Tyrion marriage is just as awful as Ned's execution, the Red Wedding, Theon Greyjoy hoodwinking the entire continent that he killed the Stark boys and the treasonous Bolton sack of Winterfell.

For some reason, you're getting Sansa/Tyrion confused with Daenerys/Drogo. Because Daenerys actually says "yes" to Drogo despite her previous qualms...and their first time together Drogo is successful in bringing her some sort of pleasure.

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I doubt it but I've been wrong before. 

I'm not saying it's not worth discussing, I'm in for discussing whatever. I'm just saying it doesn't have any bearing on what he did or didn't do the night of their wedding. 

Yeah maybe not. He has certainly gotten darker as time goes on. 

I wasn't aware I was doubting his interests clashing with the Starks but it should be noted that he, personally, has not been an enemy to house Stark, his family has. Now that he is no longer a part of his family he doesn't have any reason to go against the Starks unless they do something directly against him. Doesn't mean he won't, he might especially if he continues on his dark path but there is no reason to.

Tyrion has personally been an enemy to House Stark. He prevented House Stark from gaining Dornish allies. He did little to make Sansa's time as a hostage comfortable and befitting. House Stark had a vested interest in Stannis Baratheon taking King's Landing and Tyrion prevented that with glee. He knew that Eddard Stark was innocent and continues to do and say nothing about it. He had a very blasé reaction to what happened to Winterfell...notice how he never cared about Winterfell until there was a prospect of him becoming its lord.

[Nagini's Neville]

11 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I thought we were all in agreement that irl it's child molestation, so I didn't really see the reason to mention that again. We've pretty much established that in universe it isn't child molestation. 

That's why I call it that. As I have said a many times before. I also say Robert raped cersei and Ygritte raped Jon ( as a lot of other ppl do as well), Dany sexually assaulted Irri. 

I'm not forcing my vocabulary onto you guys, you have a problem with mine.

Quote

In universe it isn't molestation. IRL, excluding her age, it would be a hard case to prove molestation because of Sansa's outward actions. The molester has to be given some sign other than assent to understand or even guess that the touching is unwanted.

If it was a forced marriage, which it the main issue here with this scenario, you bet this would be considered sexual abuse. And why are we excluding her age now suddenly? All of this doesn't happen in a vacuum. Of course all of this wouldn't be a problem, if to consenting adults without any power over each other, not in a forced marriage, nowadays would do exactly what Tyrion and Sansa did- no problem at all. 

[Nagini's Neville]

3 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Do you not see the problem in any of this? Like someone said in the thread earlier, the Sansa/Tyrion marriage is just as awful as Ned's execution, the Red Wedding, Theon Greyjoy hoodwinking the entire continent that he killed the Stark boys and the treasonous Bolton sack of Winterfell.

Thank you! That was me. It's exactly the same thing.

[BlackLightning]

3 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Thank you! That was me. It's exactly the same thing.

Then thank you for saying it.

The Tyrion/Sansa marriage was, is and always will be an act of war...and a particularly disgraceful one at that.

It is only marginally better than the Ramsay/fArya marriage. But that's a low bar that anyone with half as much pride as Tyrion would loathe to be associated with.

[Nagini's Neville]

12 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He tells her & she does. She doesn't express any sign other than assent. 

He asks if she is afraid, she says yes & then recognizes he is afraid too. She doesn't say I'm afraid because I'm in a forced marriage. She is afraid because she is getting ready to have sex for the first time. 

And you don't think he maybe should have asked her: what exactly are you afraid of? How can I make it easier?

she is afraid, because she doesn't want to have sex, because she was forced into it. 

16 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yes, after the third time she asks him, he says yes. Should he have said no?

yes, because she was forced into the marriage

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

They are supposed to be consummating their marriage. 

He id supposed to to that. She doesn't owe House Lannister anything. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. They killed her father, held her prisoner for a year and abused her. Forced her into this marriage 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

1 minute ago, BlackLightning said:

really like you but the way you are looking at this whole Tyrion/Sansa relationship is disturbing

Thanks... I think. Lol

I'm not sure what is disturbing about it. It's just my opinion & certainly not one I carry over into real life. I'm judging the man in his own universe. 

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Sansa makes it clear over and over and over and over again that she does not want any parts of Tyrion, his penis

How does she do this? What actions &/or words of hers make it clear? 

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

She almost had to be dragged to the altar. She cried the entire ceremony and publicly refused to kneel before Tyrion

Indeed but it was Cersei & Tywin who forced her to the altar, it's not really known how much of that Tyrion knew but he does take her to the side & offer to call off the wedding if she would prefer marrying a Lannister other than him. 

She didn't cry the entire ceremony & it's specifically noted that no one sees the tears in her eyes. 

She refuses to kneel because she is embarrassed about having to kneel for her groom, not because she isn't consenting to the marriage. I'm not saying she was consenting to the marriage, she was forced to marry a Lannister, I'm just saying this isn't why she refused to kneel & there would be no reason for Tyrion to read it as such considering it isn't her reason. 

6 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Do you not see the problem in any of this? Like someone said in the thread earlier, the Sansa/Tyrion marriage is just as awful as Ned's execution, the Red Wedding, Theon Greyjoy hoodwinking the entire continent that he killed the Stark boys and the treasonous Bolton sack of Winterfell

Of course I see the problem with it. I disagree that it is as bad as all the other things you name; people died there. 

The issue we are debating (NN & I) is not that it was a horrible thing for them to do to Sansa (it was) or that the entire situation was horrific for her, it's that Tyrion is to blame for it. 

Tyrion didn't hurt her family, didn't hold her hostage, didn't take part in her father's death, argued on her behalf with his father, was kind to her, offered to call off the wedding - to which she declined, threaten to geld the King if he persisted with the bedding ceremony, asked if she was ready to start the consummation (after she asked him if she should take her clothes off 3 times), got her assent, touched her & as soon as she showed the first outward sign of not being ok with this (she shuddered at his touch) he stopped, told her to open her eyes, vowed to never touch her again unless she wanted him to. 

11 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Tyrion has personally been an enemy to House Stark. He prevented House Stark from gaining Dornish allies

How so? & Was this done on his own behalf or on the behalf of his family & the crown? 

12 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

He did little to make Sansa's time as a hostage comfortable and befitting

Not true.

12 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

House Stark had a vested interest in Stannis Baratheon taking King's Landing and Tyrion prevented that with glee

So... He should have let Stannis attack & sack KL without putting up a defense? That would've been an especially dumb thing to do & he didn't defend KL to get at the Starks so that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not he was an enemy of house Stark. 

15 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

He knew that Eddard Stark was innocent and continues to do and say nothing about it

What should he say or do about that? What was reasonably within his power to do or say irt Ned being wrongfully executed? This doesn't make him an enemy of the Starks, it makes him self-aware & keeps him alive. 

16 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

He had a very blasé reaction to what happened to Winterfell...notice how he never cared about Winterfell until there was a prospect of him becoming its lord.

Why would he care about WF? He doesn't speak much on it after there is a prospect of him becoming it's Lord either. I'm not saying him & the Starks were bff's (although he & Jon formed a kinship) I'm saying Tyrion Lannister has no reason to be a personal enemy of them, outside of his family & the Starks being at war. Now that he is not a part of that family there is no reason at all for him to be their enemy. 

[Nagini's Neville]

39 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Gregor isn't commanded by the King, he is commanded by Tywin so in universe & irl he has committed crimes. 

I'm sure Ned would have a problem with Sansa being forced to marry Tyrion. I'm not sure what the point there is. 

Tywin is the hand of the king. And Ned was the only one, who send out ppl to kill Gregor. He did for years, what he did without anyone speaking against Tywin's lapdog

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

That's why I call it that. As I have said a many times before. I also say Robert raped cersei and Ygritte raped Jon ( as a lot of other ppl do as well), Dany sexually assaulted Irri

Yeah, it is that. In universe it's not. I'm not sure where we are disagreeing here. 

19 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

I'm not forcing my vocabulary onto you guys, you have a problem with mine

I don't have any issue with your vocabulary. We were talking about Tyrion & others crimes in universe. Or so that's how I understood it. You posted some definitions, one of which didn't apply in universe, so I said it doesn't apply here. 

21 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

If it was a forced marriage, which it the main issue here with this scenario, you bet this would be considered sexual abuse

It would depend on the laws on forced marriages. 

22 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And why are we excluding her age now suddenly

Because I already said, because of her age it's child molestation irl. The age isn't a factor in universe so I was applying that to real life. 

23 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

All of this doesn't happen in a vacuum. Of course all of this wouldn't be a problem, if to consenting adults without any power over each other, not in a forced marriage, nowadays would do exactly what Tyrion and Sansa did- no problem at all.

Which is what I'm saying. She is considered of an age to marry & bed in universe. IRL she is not so no matter what other circumstances there are it's wrong IRL. If we remove the age factor it may not be wrong in real life, depending on some other things. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

And you don't think he maybe should have asked her: what exactly are you afraid of? How can I make it easier?

Sure, it would have been a nice thing to do. Not being thoughtful isn't a crime in or out of universe though. 

13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

she is afraid, because she doesn't want to have sex, because she was forced into it

This is likely so but from Tyrion's perspective she is afraid because she is getting ready to have sex for the first time. 

I don't debate that Sansa didn't want to do it. I've said before it was her armor of courtesy that gave the outward impression of assent. 

15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

He id supposed to to that. She doesn't owe House Lannister anything. This doesn't happen in a vacuum. They killed her father, held her prisoner for a year and abused her. Forced her into this marriage

Yes they did. I'm not saying it happens in a vacuum. I understand completely why this is horrific & why Sansa feels the way she does, but Tyrion doesn't have her inner thoughts. He only knows what she says with words or shows with actions & she said & showed that she was assenting to consummate the marriage. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

14 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Tywin is the hand of the king. And Ned was the only one, who send out ppl to kill Gregor. He did for years, what he did without anyone speaking against Tywin's lapdog

Tywin was not hand of the King when he told Gregor to do this, Ned was. That's the only reason Ned was able to lawfully send people after him. 

[Nagini's Neville]

1 minute ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It would depend on the laws on forced marriages. 

sure if we go by that logic Tyrion did absolutely nothing wrong in in South Sudan. he could have had sex with her at ten- nothing wrong. Are we seriously going to argue, if forced marriage is wrong nowadays? And that the person, who would be the adult and had the authority would do something wrong, if he behaved like Tyrion?

 

9 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

I don't have any issue with your vocabulary. We were talking about Tyrion & others crimes in universe. Or so that's how I understood it. You posted some definitions, one of which didn't apply in universe, so I said it doesn't apply here. 

So if Tyrion would have had sex with Sansa you also wouldn't call that rape?

What Aerys did to Rhaella? you also don't call that rape?  it isn't in universe. I personally use modern western society vocabulary and definitions, because a lot of awful things are legal in universe. And you corrected me on that, so I gave my explanation, why I say he molested her, because he would have in rl, but also in universe, because no family member gave her away in marriage, but a impostor king, who innocently executed her father, which the groom knows of.

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Because I already said, because of her age it's child molestation irl. The age isn't a factor in universe so I was applying that to real life. 

but you were transferring it into a real life nowadays situation. You said even nowadays this would hardly be molestation excluding her age. I just don't know why you are excluding her age now.

21 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Which is what I'm saying. She is considered of an age to marry & bed in universe. IRL she is not so no matter what other circumstances there are it's wrong IRL. If we remove the age factor it may not be wrong in real life, depending on some other things.

But she was also forced by an impostor king, who executed her innocent father and the groom knows that. And in universe the father or brother decide, when a girl is old enough to be married and to whom. That's the part of the "not in a vacuum" that you leave out.

Even i rl it's wrong, if it's a forced marriage and the bride has to obey the husband, even if she is 18. 

[Nagini's Neville]

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tywin was not hand of the King when he told Gregor to do this, Ned was. That's the only reason Ned was able to lawfully send people after him. 

later on he was and Gregor was still doing his thing. But even before no one dared to go against Tywin and his beast.

But what about f.e. Ned's execution? was that okay? that was also ordered by Joffrey.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

sure if we go by that logic Tyrion did absolutely nothing wrong in in South Sudan. he could have had sex with her at ten- nothing wrong. Are we seriously going to argue, if forced marriage is wrong nowadays? And that the person, who would be the adult and had the authority would do something wrong, if he behaved like Tyrion?

I feel like I'm either being misunderstood or you are arguing things I'm not saying. 

Everything about it is wrong morally, no matter which age it's set it. It's wrong to Sansa on several fronts & will never, not be wrong to her, regardless of the laws, the times, or the country. 

In universe its not considered wrong by their society or laws. That doesn't mean I personally think it's ok or right - I don't. It means I think Tyrion isn't to blame for the way society treats women & their views on marriages & consummation. And by the laws & standards he lives by & in, he nor anyone else seems to think he did anything wrong. 

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

So if Tyrion would have had sex with Sansa you also wouldn't call that rape?

By whose standards? By my personal standards? Yes, absolutely. In Westeros standards? No. 

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

What Aerys did to Rhaella? you also don't call that rape?  it isn't in universe. I personally use modern western society vocabulary and definitions, because a lot of awful things are legal in universe. And you corrected me on that, so I gave my explanation, why I say he molested her, because he would have in rl, but also in universe, because no family member gave her away in marriage, but a impostor king, who innocently executed her father, which the groom knows of.

Again, it would depend on the standards by which we are judging him. Even in universe though, what Aerys did is looked upon with some contempt even though it's not technically "illegal" 

If Ned had forced Sansa to marry Tyrion would it be molestation in universe then in your opinion? 

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

but you were transferring it into a real life nowadays situation. You said even nowadays this would hardly be molestation excluding her age. I just don't know why you are excluding her age now

I don't really know how else to explain it. I was just trying to apply it to real life fairly. 

My point was the sexual act itself, would be hard pressed to be called assault or molestation irl if age weren't a factor, like it isn't in Westeros. 

12 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

But she was also forced by an impostor king, who executed her innocent father and the groom knows that. And in universe the father or brother decide, when a girl is old enough to be married and to whom. That's the part of the "not in a vacuum" that you leave out

I understand what you are saying to be that because the wedding was "unlawful" the consummation is molestation. My contention is that by all the laws that matter to them it isn't unlawful & that in itself doesn't make much difference to me when we are deciding if he touched her against her will. 

If Ned had forced her to marry Tyrion & the wedding & consummation went exactly as it did otherwise would that make it not molestation in your eyes? 

15 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

Even i rl it's wrong, if it's a forced marriage and the bride has to obey the husband, even if she is 18

Yes absolutely. Morally wrong. But in a court of law it might not be considered such, depending on the court. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 minutes ago, Nagini's Neville said:

later on he was and Gregor was still doing his thing. But even before no one dared to go against Tywin and his beast.

But what about f.e. Ned's execution? was that okay? that was also ordered by Joffrey.

When Tywin gave the order it wouldn't be considered legal because he was not acting under the authority of the King. Gregor was following orders so some of the blame there lies with Tywin as well. 

Why would it be ok??? What have I said that makes you think I think any of this is ok to me personally???

It was lawful according to the laws of Westeros because Joff gave the order & he is King. 

I'm not sure where you are going with all of this. If we are judging characters based on their own standards or in universe laws then there are certain things to consider; was it morally right to me or you personally? This likely won't change regardless of any other judgement we place on it. We either think it is or it isn't morally right. Would it be considered morally right in universe? This may be a different answer than our own personal judgement & would be based off of the knowledge we have of the text & how other characters react to things. Is it legal? For all intents & purposes anything the King commands is legal in universe but we can also look at if there is a precedent set for it being legal & again, how other characters react to it to decide if it's actually a legal law of Westeros or if it's something the King just decided was legal in the moment. 

If judging by today's standards we can take the same approach. Is it morally right to me personally? This answer will likely be the same as before. Would it be considered morally right by others? Usually, because we are both fairly normal people, I would say this would match the first answer on most occasions. Is it legal? 

So, here is my judgement irt Tyrion & Sansa, for what it's worth. In universe: Is it morally right to me personally? No. 

Would it be considered morally right in universe? Yes. 

Is it legal? Yes. 

Is there precedent or is the King making it up as he goes? There is precedent. 

IRL:

Is it morally right to me personally? No. 

Would it be considered morally right to others? No. 

Is it legal? No, not by the laws of my country. In some places yes, it would be. 

 

[Nagini's Neville]

25 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

This is likely so but from Tyrion's perspective she is afraid because she is getting ready to have sex for the first time. 

Nah, he knew exactly, that she was forced into it.

 

27 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tyrion doesn't have her inner thoughts. He only knows what she says with words or shows with actions & she said & showed that she was assenting to consummate the marriage. 

no, he only knows, they killed her father unjustly. They imprisoned her and abused for over a year. He knows no one in their right mind would want to marry into this family.He knows Joffrey is a bastard, therefore has no legal right to give her away. She still has a big brother, who isn't a traitor, he has the right to do that. He knows she was dragged to the alter. He knows his father, knows the abuse she suffered, Tywin forced her, he forced him after all to rape his wife, . she cried throughout the ceremony, that she says no one noticed only means no one reacted to it. "burning, a hundred dancing lights that the tears in her eyes transformed into a thousand."  if you get close enough to someone to kiss them, then you also notice, that they are crying.

Under all those circumstance it would have been at least nice to really make sure, that this is what she wants, (if you really think he was so confused about it), especially because she didn't want to get rid of her courtesy armor, which Tyrion knew was an armor and not her real feelings, especially because he notices her psychological immaturity and because he is aware his father forced her? Aren't all of those reasons enough, to tell her "okay, lets stop for a while, if you are afraid." etc.

Loving consensual couple -> girl says she is afraid-> probably just because it's the first time, that she wants, would still be nice of the other one to ask what's wrong and make sure their partner is consenting, before having sex.

young girl (as Tyrion acknowledges) in forced marriage, by a family, who has taken her hostage and abused her for over a year, is at war with her family and killed her father -> fear to now have sex in a situation that was forced in the fist place, might -excuse me- be something more that just being nervous to have sex for the first time.

And Tyrion would have to do a whole lot of mental gymnastics or suddenly become super stupid to not know that. Especially for a guy, who thinks he is undesirable anyway.

 

[Nagini's Neville]

18 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

In universe its not considered wrong by their society or laws. That doesn't mean I personally think it's ok or right - I don't. It means I think Tyrion isn't to blame for the way society treats women & their views on marriages & consummation. And by the laws & standards he lives by & in, he nor anyone else seems to think he did anything wrong. 

yeah, but you said nowadays, what he did would hardly count as molestation and I responded the forced marriage part is crucial for that. If someone was forced into marriage today and touched in our western modern society it would be sexual assault and the person, would never get out of prison again.

[Nagini's Neville]

24 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

My point was the sexual act itself, would be hard pressed to be called assault or molestation irl if age weren't a factor, like it isn't in Westeros.

there is still the forced marriage though. And the fact, that woman completely has to obey the man.