Glass Candles: how they work, Jaquen's role at the Citadel, and how the Citadel used them

[sweetsunray]

Warning: this is quite a mundane explanation, not the exotic thing that many readers make out of glass candles

HOW THEY WORK

I hypothesize (for years now) that the glass candle is a type of magical psy-technology that allows for remote viewing and projecting in the present time, sort of like a live camera that allows for a hollogram of a messenger.

Some magic allows to look back into the far past. This is what a greenseer can do such as Bloodraven, Bran and some of the children of the forest.

Other magic allows to look ahead in the future. This is what green-dreamers and flame-watchers can do, such as Jojen, Ghost of High Heart, Thoros of Myr, Melisandre and Moqorro.

Quaithe’s warning to Dany in her palace at Meereen hint that Quaithe uses a glass candle to communicate with Dany. But Quaithe’s explanation that if Dany calls any guard nobody would see Quaithe points at Quaithe only being visible to Dany and thus some psychich projection and link. The fact that she would need to use a glass candle for it, shows it’s some type of psychic enhancer. George Martin uses psychic powers and some type of artefact enhancers often in his stories (non aSoIaF related). When it’s a sci-fi story, it’s often an old scientific technology. When it’s a fantasy story, it’s often some magical technology.

Quaithe’s warning also points to the idea that the glass candles only have the ability to operate in the “now”.

Quote

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." (aDwD, Dany II)

 

Most readers agree on these people being the people Quaithe warns Dany about:

• pale mare
• Kraken = Victarion Greyjoy
• dark flame = moqorro
• lion = Tyrion
• griffin = Jon Connington
• sun’s son = Quentyn Martell
• mummer’s dragon = Young Griff/(f)Aegon.

There is still debate over the “perfumed seneschal”, but I’m personally of the opinion that this is not a person, but a ship: the Selaesori Qhoran. This is the ship that Tyrion, Jorah and Penny board in Volantis, in the hope it will take them to Meereen. It’s actually a ship that intends to sail from Volantis to Qarth (and is probably a Qartheen trading vessel), but Benerro (the high priest of Rh’llorr in Volantis) saw in the flames that the Selaesori Qhoran would never reach its destination (Qarth) and has the dark flame, Moqorro, board it in order to get to Meereen. The widow of the waterfront learns of this knowledge and reveals it to Jorah. Hence, Jorah buys passage on the ship.

When Tyrion wonders what the ship’s name means, Moqorro tells Tyrion that it means “Fragrant Steward”, and Tyrion jokingly calls it “Stinky Steward”.

Something’s lost in translation of course. Moqorro knows the Common Tongue up to a level, but has to search for a word to translate it for Tyrion. Steward is a Westerosi name for a job that Essosi societies tend to call a senechal, while “fragrant” is a theoretical tranlsation of “perfumed” by a non-native speaker. At the very least, Qaithe would translate the same name as “perfumed senechal” to Dany who knows a bit more of Essosi society than Tyrion does.

Now, this “perfumed senechal” (the ship), the griffin (Jon Con) and mummer’s dragon (Young Griff/(f)Aegon) are the evidence that the glass candle does not allow Quaithe to see into the future. Neither ever arrive at Meereen.

• Aegon convinces Jon Con and the Golden Company to not try to get to Dany in Meereen, but instead commence the invasion of Westeros.
• The Selaesori Qhoran ends up first adrift, then in a storm and finally is boarded by Yunkai slavers. So, how do Tyrion (the lion) and Moqorro (the dark flame) end up at Meereen? Moqorro goes overboard during the storm and is fished up by Victarion’s crew sailing for Meereen, while Tyrion’s later taken by the slavers.

Quaithe thus did not know when she warned Dany that Aegon, Jon Con or the ship would never reach Meereen. All she knew was that at the time she gave her warning, that Aegon and Jon Con intended to go to Meereen and that Benerro had seen in his flames that the Selaesori Qhoran was a necessary means for Moqorro to reach Meereen. And thus, Quaithe expected all three to go and reach Meereen.

This interpretation of the limits of the glass candle fits with the rest of the people she warns about: Tyrion was on his way to meet with Jon Con and Aegon and become part of their crew; Victarion was sailing for Meereen with his fleet, Quentyn Martell was seeking passage to Meereen in Volantis, and Astapori infected with the pale mare were on their way to seek refuge at Meereen.

And it matches Marwyn’s explanation to Samwell:

Quote

 

Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. "All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?"

"We would have no more need of ravens."

"Only after battles." (aFfC, Sam V)

 

 

JAQUEN’S PURPOSE AT THE CITADEL

So, now that we have an inkling of what it can do, we can now surmise its potential in Oldtown. We know that the FM we originally knew to be Jaquen, took the face of Pate to infiltrate into the Citadel, and acquire the archmaester’s key that opens any door within the Citadel. The key belongs to Walgrave, the archmaester who’s specialty is ravenry and who has gone “senile” or suffers from dementia. Pate was a novice of little promise, and thus a low profile identity to impersonate, who tended the ravens and Walgrave. So, on the one hand Jaquen as Pate has the ability to communicate with whomever he wants in a castle in Westeros without anyone truly checking up on him via the ravens, can read any letter that comes to the Citadel via ravens and can use the key to go into the rooms where the Citadel’s glass candle is located. So, his motive seems to be spying, not just Westeros but events all over the world as that is what a glass candle appears to do foremostly. Potentially, Jaquen has some psy/sorcery powers (beyond the wearing of faces), as that would also enable him to communicate with the kindly man in Braavos in a similar way as Quaithe does with Dany.

Why could this be crucial? The Iron Bank and therefore Braavos has gotten into the affairs of who’s to be king of Westeros, when they back Stannis and have him sign on the loans to the Iron Bank. While the FM are another operation than the Iron Bank, they are still a Braavosi operation and would often cooperate with the Iron Bank as well as do its dirty business (as imo Arya’s chapter Mercy seems to imply - “that should cause trouble for the Sealord and [King’s Landing] envoy”). Now, by the end of aDwD, the message is sent to Castle Black claiming that Stannis is dead. But many readers have come to believe that Stannis is playing a trick on the Boltons and only pretending to be dead. And soon the rest of Westeros will pass on the news via raven, including to Oldtown, except the glass candles can reveal the truth - Stannis is not dead, but only pretending to be dead. And if Jaquen knows and can use the glass candly to communicate with Braavos, he can thus warn the kindly man and via him the Iron Bank that Stannis is still alive, and therefore they didn’t back the loser of the battle of the Ice Lakes.

Notice how Marwyn said they wouldn’t need ravens anymore if glass candles could be used “only after battle”. It's an odd reply, and requires some thought. But Marwyn's answer is wrong! Before and during battle, glass candles would be far handier and safer than ravens. Ravens can carry false/decoy messages. Ravens can be shot by arrows and thus prevented from reaching whomever the message is sent to, leaving the receiver without warning. Messages from ravens can be read by people whose eyes aren't meant to read them. But glass candles can be used to spy without risking physical scouts. They can eavesdrop and spy on the enemy's plans without them ever knowing it. And they can be used to communicate a message to the receiver without anyone else, but the receiver knowing what the message is. If anyone was to spy on the receiver, they'd just see the receiver talk to thin air. They wouldn't hear or see the messenger using the glass candle. So, the glass candles are an ultra powerful tool to spy and deliver messages across continents and between continents, before and during war, not AFTER.

The "after battle" comment is related to - winners and losers are known after the battle had been fought, except for Stannis's battle of the Ice Lakes. There everybody will believe him to be dead, while he's only pretending to be dead. I suspect that’s part of why George moved Jaquen into the Citadel - so that Braavos and the Iron Bank would still have a true motive to reject Tommen’s envoy to renogiate a deal with the bank while Stannis is believed to be dead by all, except for Stannis, his surviving men, Jaquen and therefore Braavos. (Their surface motive will be the scandalous “murder of Mercy” by the envoy’s guard Raff the Sweetling)* We’ll probably thus witness Samwell catching Pate in the act of using the Glass Candle, as well as learn from Jaquen-as-Pate how to use it himself. We are unlikely to witness Arya discover this from her POV in the House of Black and White, except for perhaps the kindly man talking to thin air.

Many readers speculate Jaquen is there to use the candle to spy on Dany and learn more about dragons, mostly because that’s where Sam’s, Marwyn’s and the sphynx’s head is at. But Jaquen’s mission is clearly to spy in Westeros and be an agent in Westeros, and he was likely ordered to get into the Citadel the moment that the glass candles that Braavos likely has lit up. It’s possible that Jaquen’s information via the glass candles is the reason why the Iron Bank ended up sending Tycho Nestoris with more than just 1 ship to Eastwatch in search for Stannis, why Tycho is willing to lend the ships to Jon, negotiate a loan with the Wall so they can acquire food, and manages to find Stannis at some insignificant crofter’s village in the middle of a forest. The Iron Bank and Tycho went on an almost incredulous stretch to get Stannis to sign the loan deal and Tycho took big chances when he lent his ships to Jon to be used to arrange for the rescuing of people at Hardhome, who either would have died at Hardhome or end up being taken as slaves by Tyroshi slavers. The knowledge that Dany (and her dragons) decided to stay around Meereen for a while, as well as King’s Landing having stopped repaying loans, would have prompted Braavos to back Stannis ASAP. This was their opportunity to back someone who would repay their loans, more than a Lannister turned out to be, and who doesn’t have dragons, or would pave the way for Targaryens to reclaim the Iron Throne via Aegon. if Stannis manages to pull through and create a stable Westeros, Dany might be stopped of retaking Westeros.

HOW THE CITADEL USES THEM

As for their use to the Citadel:

Quote

 

Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

"What are these glass candles?" asked Roone.

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. "The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper . . . only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try." (aFfC, Prologue)

 

 

It is possible that initially the glass candles were acquired for the use they’re intended for. But there is a darker potential purpose, especially if it requires someone to have psy/magical-powers to use it. We know for a long time now that the Citadel dislikes magic and wants to rid the world of magic. They want to make people believe there is none. This stems from their historical connection to Andals who had anti-magic beliefs, making them akin to witch hunters. And these glass candles are used as a “test” obviously before allowing an acolyte to become a maester. We are told that there always some who try. Well and those who would actually succeed, would prove to the archmaesters that the acolyte has magical powers and thus can be easily getten rid of - hence they likely used the glass candles quite early on to rid the world of acolytes with magical abilities. So, they could continue to lie to the world that “there is no such thing as magic”.

CONCLUSION

• use/abilities: remotive viewing in the now, remote communicating by someone with psy/magical powers.
• Jaquen's story purpose at the Citadel and mission: to spy on Westeros events via news from ravens and what he can see in glass candles, and to relay this ASAP to the House of Black and White. I strongly suspect this will come into play for Stannis's story over that of Dany's, and how the Iron Bank continues to help and back Stannis beyond the credible otherwise.
• Citadel used them for a vile purpose: to discover amongst their acolytes had magical powers to use the glass candles, and therefore betray their magical powers, so they could kill them and rid the world of magic
•  

[The Lord of the Crossing]

Westeros will not be able to repay those loans even if Stannis is on the throne.  Winter kills not only people but business.  It is a bad investment.  

 

[LynnS]

Thank you for an interesting read.   I would add a small note on how glass candles are used to communicate.  I think there is one example of that in the text from Varys:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion X

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

Varys doesn't notice a black candle burning but it does sound like the voice that answers the call may have one and communicates through the medium of fire.  It seems a burnt offering is also required.

Here is what Sam notices when he enters Marwyn's chamber:

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

When Sam hesitated, one of those hands grabbed him by the arm and yanked him through the door. The room beyond was large and round. Books and scrolls were everywhere, strewn across the tables and stacked up on the floor in piles four feet high. Faded tapestries and ragged maps covered the stone walls. A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned. Aside from that, the only light came from a tall black candle in the center of the room.

So I'm guessing that a glass candle is used in conjunction with a burnt offering (blood magic) and fire magic in order to spy out the land or communicate with another.  In other words, the glass candle enhances fire magic.  

The glass candle itself is a magical object and I suspect obsidian/dragonglass. 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

 

 

[LynnS]

I also question whether or not Sarella/Alleras has been using the glass candles and if she has been instructed in their use.  She seems to be in favor with Marwyn.  

Quote

A Feast for Crows - The Captain Of Guards

"As my prince commands." His heart was troubled. My little princess will mislike this. "What of Sarella? She is a woman grown, almost twenty."

"Unless she returns to Dorne, there's naught I can do about Sarella save pray that she shows more sense than her sisters. Leave her to her . . . game. Gather up the others. I shall not sleep until I know that they are safe and under guard."

"It will be done." The captain hesitated. "When this is known in the streets, the common folk will howl."

I wonder if her game is spying,  And I wonder if she is masquerading as Quaithe.  

[Ygrain]

Nice analysis, and pretty convincing. However, it should be kept in mind that "Pate" may have more than one purpose in the Citadel.

The use of ravens "after battle", IMHO, hints at ravens picking on the corpses.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Thank you for an interesting read.   I would add a small note on how glass candles are used to communicate.  I think there is one example of that in the text from Varys:

Varys doesn't notice a black candle burning but it does sound like the voice that answers the call may have one and communicates through the medium of fire.  It seems a burnt offering is also required.

It's possible that the "blue flame" was a glass candle, but as of yet unconfirmed for me. It depends on Quaithe's statement that nobody else but Dany could see Quaithe while she uses the glass candle.

Of course there might be a difference between a glass candle user projecting themselves into the mind of someone else at a location where there isn't any glass candle, such as Dany's garden terrace, and being present in the same room with a glass candle through which the operator uses the candle and gets a reply. 

So, let's say that if Jaquen-as-Pate uses the glass candly to communicate with Tycho Nestoris to tell him where to locate Stannis after Deepwood Motte, anybody with Tycho would never have seen or heard Jaquen, but anyone else in the room with the glass candle and Jaquen-as-Pate using it could have overheard Tycho's reply, even if they didn't understand the language.

Note: glass candles do not have to be "black". The Citadel has a green candle aside from three black ones.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Here is what Sam notices when he enters Marwyn's chamber:

So I'm guessing that a glass candle is used in conjunction with a burnt offering (blood magic) and fire magic in order to spy out the land or communicate with another.  In other words, the glass candle enhances fire magic.

Very likely, Marwyn does say "fire and blood" and Marwyn has studied blood magic in Asshai (per MMD). And yes I agree it's a "fire magic", because it is made of obsidian (that's what Marwyn says the glass is) and were invented by Valyrians. The type of sacrifice required may vary depending on what you wish to accomplish with the glass candle (glass candle to glass candle, mental projection to a person who doesn't have a glass candle, viewing or communicating) and the strength of magic overall in the world. For example, when Varys was cut, magic overall was low. But magic has started to soar, first the ice magic with the Others already in action in the Haunted Forest at the start of the series and fire magic since Dany's sacrifice in which she woke the dragon eggs during the comet's passing. Maybe offering a roasted chicken is enough for Marwyn to spy on Meereen and the Ironborn. 

It also makes sense to put Samwell in a situation where he feels the need to make the glass candle burn asap. Lighting the candle is what would make him a maester, instead of an acolyte, according to the rules, and he does not want to study for years and years. However, Sam hates hunting, killing and skinning animals. He's been training to use a bow, nevertheless, and as a "Hunter" (his house's sigil) he'd end up killing and sacrificing an animal, not to please his father, but to complete his study as a maester and get back to the Night's Watch (and incidentally possibly endangering himself with the Citadel). So, makes sense with the origin of the glass candles as well as in which arc and POV we witness these artefacts appear.

And it fits with George's habbit to make magic come with a price and not be freely accessible for whomever and whenever they want. Jojen may be able to dream the future without much cost, but it's always in symbolic imagery and therefore not a straightforward vision of the future where he could go to Winterfell and say," The Ironborn will take the castle."

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

The glass candle itself is a magical object and I suspect obsidian/dragonglass.

Marwyn states it's obsidian

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

It's possible that the "blue flame" was a glass candle, but as of yet unconfirmed for me. It depends on Quaithe's statement that nobody else but Dany could see Quaithe while she uses the glass candle.

Yes, quite right.  There are other types of obsidian including blue and green.

The thing that nags as me about Quaithe is this:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

"Me?" She laughed. "How could that be?"

The woman stepped closer and lay two fingers on Dany's wrist. "You are the Mother of Dragons, are you not?"

"She is, and no spawn of shadows may touch her." Jhogo brushed Quaithe's fingers away with the handle of his whip.

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys III

The woman took a step backward. "You must leave this city soon, Daenerys Targaryen, or you will never be permitted to leave it at all."

Dany's wrist still tingled where Quaithe had touched her. "Where would you have me go?" she asked.

"To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow."

I feel like Quaithe has tagged or marked Dany in some way.  That she has established a psychic connection to Dany and this allows or enhances her ability to come to Dany by other means (glass candle).

[sweetsunray]

47 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Nice analysis, and pretty convincing. However, it should be kept in mind that "Pate" may have more than one purpose in the Citadel.

Well, there could be various purposes in theory, but the identity of Pate sort of narrows it down. Pate's a novice/acolyte, not a maester, and he's not even a good acolyte of whom maesters pretty much believe that he will never be a maester. In practice, Pate is foremostly a "servant", with 2 jobs - serving a senile archmaester who thinks Pate is the late maester Cressen and tends to the ravens. The advantage to having to serve an archmaester such as Walgrave is that it allows fake-Pate to go about his business without anybody checking on him, and unhindered access to his key opening any doors.

After the prologue the first thing you may want to suspect his purpose to be is that of finding some type of book in the library that the Citadel wants to keep under wraps. But while the key allows for such access, Pate's abilities and standing at the Citadel do so much less. Pate in a library would raise eyebrows.

Murder doesn't seem likely either, as we still have to hear about a suspicious death in the Citadel that at least would make the reader raise their eyebrows.

That leaves the main mission for fake-Pate to do what he has the most logical access to: ravens and with Sam's last chapter at the Citadel: the glass candles. And this seems to fit Jaquen's history in the books. The sole commissioned assassination that Jaquen ever committed was pushing Balon Greyjoy of a bridge. None of the two men he murdered at Harrenhal were ever missions from the HoBaW. Hell, to this day, we still don't know what his mission even was that got him from the Black Cells into a cage on the king's road with Yoren and Arya. Whatever it was, he abandoned it when he left Harrenhal, either because it wasn't necessary anymore, or because he ended up in the cage by accident and had to return to the mission, and thus Harrenhal and recruiting Arya was just a sidetrack he took. And then finally, Pate's murder was a means to an end, not the end. I believe that Arya's mission as Mercy is also something where the murder is a means to an end, rather than the goal itself. More, thoughout aFfC and aDwD Arya's main job is spying and relating "news" to the kindly man. This actually seems to be the main job overall, beyond being the operant of a (political/banker) mission and assassination: to spy and relay what you've learned back to the head quarters.

George does give us breadcrumbs that at the very least predict Jaquen's meta-role: Stannis, House Stark and the prophecy of Daenys Targaryen. With archmaester Walgrave calling Pate often by the name Cressen, George created a connection between Pate and the late maester of Stannis Baratheon at Dragonstone. This is one of the reasons that when we learn more of fake-Pate's doing at the Citadel, through Sam's POV, we will see that Jaquen had an influential role into Stannis's plot. Given his location, such influence could only be one of spying and relaying information to Braavos about Stannis. The sole immediate plot-relevant role I can think of is that fake-Pate's position allows him to learn of Stannis's fake fate via raven message, to then verify it via glass candle. Whether Stannis is ultimately doomed or not, as the @Lord of the Crossing intends to imply, is irrelevant. I'm not trying to decipher mysteries and a character's plot purpose in the coming book to stan the outcome of Stannis as king or not. I'm trying to understand motives from a faction's pov and how George will attempt to relay that motive to the reader so it becomes believable. The Iron Bank refusing to renegotiate the loan with Tommen's envoy, and not backing Aegon, but Stannis (or on the surface his daughter) instead as I expect them to do, while by conventional means they ought to believe Stannis dead, needs some explaining. Pate with a glass candle serves such a meta-plot role.

Jaquen ended up in Arya Stark's plot early on, so he alraedy has a Stark connection, but this connection reappears with archmaester Walgrave. Walgrave's chest contains a lock of blonde hair. Lady Barbrey Dustin reveals to Theon that Rickard Stark's maester Walys was a bastard son of a Hightower girl and an archmaester of the Citadel. The archmaester is implied and suspected to be Walgrave: Walgrave -> Walys, and blonde (Hightower) lock of hair as a keepsake implies romantic attachment. More, Dustin implied that it was Walys's idea to make the match between Catelyn Tully and Brandon Stark. As Walgrave's caretaker, this puts fake-Pate back into a Winterfell and Stark plot, certainly historically, and very likely in the coming book.

And finally, there's Jaquen's connection to the Ironborn and an Ironborn connection to Marwyn. Though on the surface Jaquen's murder of Balon and Asha talking to her maternal uncle Lord Rodrik Harlaw about Marwyn's book "Book of Lost Books" in which Marwyn relates the three pages he found of Daenys Targaryen's prophecy book "Signs and Portents" seem unrelated, by the end of aFfC, we have Pate and Marwyn in the same chapter and Marwyn and Sam talking prophecies. That those two last characters talk about the subject is not surprising, but an Ironborn being interested in such a book and owning such a copy and talking to Asha about it is eyebrow raising, especially if we find the murderer of Asha's father in the vicinity of Marwyn several chapters later. And if fake-Pate is hunting for a book, then imo it would turn out to be this one, though I think it more likely that fake-Pate isn't looking for it, but Samwell will happen upon it and fake-Pate will learn about it through Sam incidentally.

47 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

The use of ravens "after battle", IMHO, hints at ravens picking on the corpses.

Possibly. Marwyn's answer is quite ambiguous to translate into meaning.

Does he mean you would only need ravens after battle or does he mean you won't need ravens and only glass candles after batte.

[sweetsunray]

11 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, quite right.  There are other types of obsidian including blue and green.

The thing that nags as me about Quaithe is this:

I feel like Quaithe has tagged or marked Dany in some way.  That she has established a psychic connection to Dany and this allows or enhances her ability to come to Dany by other means (glass candle).

Touch is indeed something that George uses often for psy-talents to make a psychic link to someone. One such example is "A Song for Lya". I'd say Quaithe's natural abilities fall into George's interpretation of psychics: touch allows them to read or feel thoughts and emotions within another person (A Song for Lya), artefacts allow them to create illusions (Morgan in Bitterblooms with her screen) or command creatures to do their will (Rica Dawnstar wearing a psionic headgear enhancer to command a T-Rex to attack her intended target in Tuf Voyaging in the short story Plague Star)

[Victor Newman]

Somebody posted a theory on another area that goes something like this.  The ones that we know about so far started to glow because of Khal Drogo's death.  Daenerys is Azor Ahai and her Nissa Nissa was Drogo.  The passing of the Red Comet signals the arrival of Azor Ahai.  The activation of the glass candles mean the world is being prepared to live with the long darkness.  Dany lost her Sun and Stars (Drogo) but receives these lights in return.  They provide illumination as well as long distance communication.  The weir trees are also powered by blood magic and they too provide access to information. 

[sweetsunray]

@Victor Newman

I read that OP, because it was about glass candles. However, to me there are too many unsubstantiated claims. There is no evidence that it was Drogo's death itself (smothered by Dany) that caused the candles to glow again. All we know is that fire magic was observably stronger to characters in aCoK: the alchemists who make wildfire can make more faster, Quaithe's remarks about the fire entertainer alluding to making dragonglass spark., Beric's resurrection Some speculate it's the birth of the dragons itself that causes the increase of fire magic, others it was the comet, still others claim magic overall has increased (per the Others' activity even prior to Dany's dragon birthing ritual, and all the Stark kids being born skingchnagers). There's a correlation, but to pinpoint it to Drogo's death is not a claim that anyone can prove.

The OP seemed less about glass candles, and more about the belief that Dany is AA and working in glass candles are some representation or evidence of this.

There is no evidence that weir trees need to be powered by blood magic whatsoever. It is however suggested that blood magic might be necessary for a greenseer to be initiated into becoming a novice of greenseeing, and it seems (stress on 'seems') that followers sacrificed (or executed) people in front of weirwoods. There are many potential explanations why this was a custom.

Anyhow, much of that has little to nothing to do with glass candles, except being used as a prop to try and support the personal belief that Dany is AA, which is fine, but has little to do with my OP, and it didn't seem fair to the OP to post my own stuf on glass candles in that thread.

[LynnS]

I like the whole premise of Jaqen's purpose at the Citadel.  I'm not so sure of Sam's purpose.  I think his interest will lie more with what is closest to home for him: what is going on at the Wall, his encounter with Coldhands, the White Walkers, the Wights and the Black Gate/Night Fort.   I'm not sure that he will make it to maester even fast paced by learning how to use a glass candle.  That could just as easily be a death sentence for an acolyte.    I'm also expecting Sam to discover something about the broken horn.  I think it will be what he learns that will drive him to leave the Citadel and go back to Jon with a sense of urgency.   I'm also expecting Sarella and Jaqen to aid him on his way.  

[sweetsunray]

29 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I like the whole premise of Jaqen's purpose at the Citadel.  I'm not so sure of Sam's purpose.  I think his interest will lie more with what is closest to home for him: what is going on at the Wall, his encounter with Coldhands, the White Walkers, the Wights and the Black Gate/Night Fort.   I'm not sure that he will make it to maester even fast paced by learning how to use a glass candle.  That could just as easily be a death sentence for an acolyte.    I'm also expecting Sam to discover something about the broken horn.  I think it will be what he learns that will drive him to leave the Citadel and go back to Jon with a sense of urgency.   I'm also expecting Sarella and Jaqen to aid him on his way.  

Well, Sam's focus has been shifted towards Azor Ahai and prophecy. It's his POV where Aemon asks him to ask to see Stannis's sword, and Aemon who confides in Sam privately that Stannis's sword doesn't emenate any heat. He's the witness who overhears Aemon talk about the prophecy of the Prince that was Promised and concluding it's Dany. Sam basically accepts Aemon's assessment and relays it to Marwyn who was preparing to seek out Dany at Meereen anyway. At the moment, Samwell doesn't yet know enough to form his own opinion on this, and going mostly by Aemon's conclusion. Surely, the Citadel must have the original of Marwyn's book in which he cites Daenys the Dreamer Targaryen's 3 pages. That's why I think this is something that belongs into Sam's plotline. He's the POV where the Wall's needs and the threats of the Others join with deeper knowlege of the prophecy.

Obviously this may have an impact on fake-Pate, Braavos and the Iron Bank, though I don't think the Iron Bank is backing Stannis because they believe he's Azor Ahai as he claims, but foremostly because this seems their logical candidate against "dragons aren't something to joke about" and Lannisters-failing-to-pay-their-debts.

I agree that Sam may risk his life showing he can use a glass candle. I'm certain that's what the Citadel used the glass candles for the past several centuries. Here fake-Pate may end up being of aid in a manner similar he was to Arya, perhaps. The sphinx's purpose is still a riddle to me.

[Seams]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

 

Quote

The glass candle itself is a magical object and I suspect obsidian/dragonglass.

Marwyn states it's obsidian

This is important, I think. To understand the glass candles, we have to look at other obsidian / dragon glass in the books.

Maester Luwin has a jar full of obsidian arrow heads in his rookery room. He gives some to Rickon and Bran shortly before he dies at the base of the weirwood and before the Stark boys set off on their separate journeys. If you accept that all obsidian is related to glass candles, in a sense Luwin is giving them special "eyes" to take along as they escape Theon and Ramsay.

I realize that aspects of the books tell us that the Maesters at the Citadel do not like magic and that they are trying to drive it out of the world, but I'm not sure they use the glass candles at the initiation rite to weed out any novices or acolytes who have magical powers. My best evidence for this is Maester Luwin, who long ago finished his chain and became a maester. Luwin seems apologetic in his explanation of the Valyrian Steel link in his maester's chain, signifying study of the higher mysteries, but does he really regret studying that branch of knowledge? If the Citadel were destroying novices who study magic, I think they would have toasted Luwin as soon as he sought that link. Furthermore, he uses the Myrish eye or far-eyes to study the comet. I think the Myrish Eye is another magical eye and is therefore linked to his jar of obsidian because, again, glass candles are made of obsidian and they are also used for magical vision.

In other words, all pieces of obsidian are linked to the "magic vision" that is associated with glass candles.

(For what it's worth, I suspect that Maester Luwin is a parallel or projection of Bloodraven. He has a jar full of obsidian because Bloodraven has a thousand eyes and one. He is Bran's teacher. He bleeds out on the roots of the weirwood as a way of being recycled back into the weir net.)

Another significant obsidian situation is the cache found by Jon Snow with guidance from Jeor Mormont, who ensures that Jon is at the Fist, with his direwolf, on the night of a special full moon - Jon also carries a torch in this scene, just after we are told that the comet has been nicknamed "Mormont's Torch." Jon's other guide is the direwolf Ghost, who leads him on an underworld-path to the spot where the cache is buried. Like the Citadel acolytes or novices, Jon is something of a novice until shortly after he finds the cache. Unlike most of the initiates in Armen's description of the night ritual you cited, I would say that Jon is successful in causing the "candle" to light, however:

Quote

The bundle turned, and its contents spilled out onto the ground, glittering dark and bright. He saw a dozen knives, leaf-shaped spearheads, numerous arrowheads. Jon picked up a dagger blade, featherlight and shiny black, hiltless. Torchlight ran along its edge, a thin orange line that spoke of razor sharpness. Dragonglass. What the maesters call obsidian.

Jon goes ahead and gives away dagger blades and arrowheads to his friends, including Sam Tarly. I doubt that GRRM will later reveal that Marwyn could see the insides of Sam and Grenn's pockets, using these spying devices, but it would not surprise me if people carrying obsidian weapons can be tracked by those who know how to use glass candles, as if they were giving off an electronic or radio signal to a distant spy receiver.

Who else is associated with dragonglass? Two people. Sam, who discovers that the dragonglass blade received from Jon Snow seems to have unique power to melt an Other, allowing Sam to earn his Slayer nickname; and Stannis, who lived at Dragonstone and who instructs his castellan to mine as much of the stone as possible in preparation for anticipated clashes with the Others. How much of this dragonglass reaches Stannis and his army, and whether it is used as a way to track his movements, I cannot say.

Perhaps I should add a third character who is associated with dragonglass: Small Paul, who is wighted but does not seem to be vulnerable to dragonglass when Sam attempts to use it on him. He is instead stopped by burning wood. The apparent trade-off or opposition of ravens and glass candles might be clarified by studying Small Paul - he is obsessed with obtaining a raven, was assigned the task of killing Jeor Mormont in Chett's failed coup and appears to have been focused on Gilly and her baby after he was wighted.

A lot of the ideas you propose in connection with the glass candles are really fascinating. There may be an opposition between glass candles and books, for instance. Or does one illuminate the other? Sam seems to be able to use both books and obsidian to "see" important things. Is GRRM telling us that reading books is related to magical visions of far-away things? Do other characters misuse obsidian (or daggers) to destroy books?

You have some fresh ideas about the Alchemist and Jaqen. I haven't sorted out all of the ACoK preface, but here's my convoluted guess at some of the symbolism:

• The faceless man (presumed to be "Jaqen") is both Leo Tyrell and the Alchemist in that preface. Leo (thought to be grounded at the Citadel) shows up at the moment that Pate was expecting the Alchemist and the Alchemist is revealed only after Leo is out of Pate's sight.
• Leo Tyrell represents House Tyrell and his bragging about the meal he just ate is foreshadowing about the death of Joffrey.
• This is going to sound nuts but I think Pate might represent Littlefinger: "pate" is another word for head, and the Baelish sigil is the head of the Titan of Braavos. The novice Pate is obsessed with coins (Littlefinger is the Master of Coin) because obtaining a gold coin will allow him to sleep with Rosie (from which he imagines making a life with her).
• But wait! Pate might, at the same time, be Tyrion. GRRM makes a point of telling us that Tyrion's head is massive in contrast to his body, bringing us back to "pate" as a word for a head. Tyrion also becomes the Master of Coin (and the whole Groat and Penny symbolism might show that Tyrion is himself a coin). Tyrion has expressed an interest in sleeping with Sansa but he has not yet done it, even though they are married.
• If the dual-symbolism for Pate works, it might also apply to the much-desired Rosie as well. The Tyrell sigil always includes gold roses. Leo Tyrell tells Pate that he might sleep with Rosie before Pate gets his chance. Could Rosie be a symbol of the ever-virginal Margaery Tyrell? Thrice-married but still a maid? The second character symbolized by the serving girl Rosie could be Sansa. Merillion tells her at one point that he is going to write a song about her with the title of "Roadside Rose." Sansa also treasures the moment that Ser Loras Tyrell presented her with a rose at the Hand's Tourney.
• (And that could open up a Pate = Robert, Rosie = Lyanna, Leo = Rhaegar possibility but that seems like too great a departure from the topic of this thread.)

You highlight the raven / glass candle juxtaposition and that is really interesting. If it's correct to see obsidian daggers, arrowheads and spear points as different versions of glass candles, maybe these things are "used up" in battle, necessitating the temporary use of ravens for communication while the dragonglass is somehow "recharged." I am a fan of the Voice's Miasma Theory and I believe that obsidian is the antibody that can destroy or cure the disease caused by this miasma. The human body can be exhausted when fighting illness and it needs to rest before being "reborn" into wellness. Ravens (messengers of the Underworld) can fill the gap while the body (and its antibodies) are renewed.

I know I'm a broken record, but I think the "Ice / eyes" wordplay, comparing the legendary sword to visual sensory organs, is the thread that really ties together the obsidian weapons and the dragonglass candles. War is the disease. If we use "magic" (obsidian) properly, it leads to sight and knowledge and stories and books. If we use it (dragonglass) improperly, it is part of an ancient pattern of killing which does not solve any of our problems.

[sweetsunray]

15 minutes ago, Seams said:

realize that aspects of the books tell us that the Maesters at the Citadel do not like magic and that they are trying to drive it out of the world, but I'm not sure they use the glass candles at the initiation rite to weed out any novices or acolytes who have magical powers. My best evidence for this is Maester Luwin, who long ago finished his chain and became a maester. Luwin seems apologetic in his explanation of the Valyrian Steel link in his maester's chain, signifying study of the higher mysteries, but does he really regret studying that branch of knowledge? If the Citadel were destroying novices who study magic, I think they would have toasted Luwin as soon as he sought that link. Furthermore, he uses the Myrish eye or far-eyes to study the comet. I think the Myrish Eye is another magical eye and is therefore linked to his jar of obsidian because, again, glass candles are made of obsidian and they are also used for magical vision.

Well, I didn't claim they would rid themselves of those studying magic, but getting rid of the evidence that people can have magical powers. Luwin didn't need to be killed for studying magic, because he has no magical abilities. And in fact not killing him was to their benefit - since Luwin didn't have any such skills in person, he believed it didn't exist whatsoever. He thought of his own youthful desire to be "special" as something that propelled Jojen to claim he had the greensight, which Luwin vehemently dismisses, and is proven wrong about. And he realized his error far too late, seeking out the weirwood when he's dying and thus giving it his self-sacrificing blood.

For me, Luwin represents a "poison" to green magic (like Cat does initially), as does Septon Chayle and Ironborn's salt water (poisoned water). This poison idea comes from Bran's chapters in aCoK with Meera and Jojen which reference Serwyn of the Mirror Shield story and Saint George with the dragon. The latter's dragon was one that threatened to "poison the well". Except, there's no dragon in these parallels, and the parallels have a reversal in how they play out and in their outcome. In the godswood, a giant saves a damsel in distress from the angry Prince Bran (the original is Serwyn saving a princess from a giant), and Meera catches Summer with her net like Saint George's princess captures the dragon with her girdle (Meer carries her net on her hip, like a girdle) to then set him free, just as later Jojen is meant to set Bran (winged wolf) free from the chains. Setting Summer free is a reversal of the original story. Saint George ends up killing the dragon, in return for the citizens of the Princess's city converting from paganism to Christianity. In the aCoK plotline for Bran we have a conversion from a boy who's being drugged (and shamed) by Luwin to deal with his dreams and who used to be his mother's son* to someone who turns away from the Faith and Luwin's well meant lies towards paganism. And with Luwin choosing to die at the weirwood, he too has been converted: he now believes again.

(*Catelyn is a Faith follower and introduces the Faith into Winterfell - Ned builds a sept for her and now they have a Septon... of course a very docile, friendly innocent young man, but sending a septon the likes at the Wall would only backfire in Winterfell. Theon drown unfortunate Chayle, but both this, Luwin's death and the burning of Winterfell rid Winterfell of the Citadel's and Faith's poison, and then the Ironborn salt water poison is driven away as well).

 

All Myrish objects imply "lies" and "illusion" to me. Whenever "Myrish" comes up, I tend to look for lies. In Luwin's case his dismissal of Bran's and Rickon's dream warning about Ned Stark's death, his dismissal of the existence of children of the forest are the lies. Just not wilfull lies. He's looking at the world through a tunnel vision lens that magic doesn't exist, because he came to believe the lies of the Citadel.

[dialt]

3 minutes ago, Seams said:

Leo Tyrell represents House Tyrell and his bragging about the meal he just ate is foreshadowing about the death of Joffrey.

Leo mocks Pete, by calling him “Spotted Pete the Pig Boy”.

And his meal, the one he’s talking about, was made of suckling pigs.

In addition moments before meeting the Alchemist, Pete notices a butcher’s cart with five piglets (that are about to die, in all evidence).

Therefore, at the very least Leo’s meal is foreshadowing Pete’s death.
But there could be more.

Especially because, Leo is another one eyed character (his hair, covers one of his eyes). I think we should pay more attention at him. 

[dialt]

Sorry but I lost the finale part...

Just wanna add that given Sam chapter I doubt that the FM can be both Pate and Leo. Even if Leo is left outside Marwyn’s room, it looks like fPate was already inside. So I highly doubt.

But I agree on the overall idea that FM are seeking intelligence more than information about magic. What’s the true purpose, goal, that I am less sure.

[sweetsunray]

52 minutes ago, Seams said:

The faceless man (presumed to be "Jaqen") is both Leo Tyrell and the Alchemist in that preface. Leo (thought to be grounded at the Citadel) shows up at the moment that Pate was expecting the Alchemist and the Alchemist is revealed only after Leo is out of Pate's sight.

This doesn't work in Sam's chapter. He meets Leo Tyrell when arriving at the rookery, and then Marwyn pulls Samwell from that room into the one with the glass candle. Pate is already inside, together with Marwyn.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, lalt said:

Sorry but I lost the finale part...

Just wanna add that given Sam chapter I doubt that the FM can be both Pate and Leo. Even if Leo is left outside Marwyn’s room, it looks like fPate was already inside. So I highly doubt.

But I agree on the overall idea that FM are seeking intelligence more than information about magic. What’s the true purpose, goal, that I am less sure.

Ninja'd :-)

[Tywin Manderly]

11 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Westeros will not be able to repay those loans even if Stannis is on the throne.  Winter kills not only people but business.  It is a bad investment.  

It will be fairly easy for Stannis to pay off the crown's debt to the Iron Bank in the event that he wins the Iron Throne. The only things that he would need to do is take the Lannisters and the Tyrells to the cleaners as well as claw back the money that Littlefinger has embezzled from the treasury.