Tolkien 4.0 (A dark and hungry sea lion arises)

[butterweedstrover]

11 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Tolkien never intented any of his subcreation to be Christian allegory.  As such I don’t understand your criticism here?

Whether he intended to or didn't is irrelevant. He wrote a book based on Christian mores (I never mentioned allegory).  

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

1 hour ago, butterweedstrover said:

Whether he intended to or didn't is irrelevant. He wrote a book based on Christian mores (I never mentioned allegory).  

It’s not a one to one application of Chriatian mores.  It if was it would be allagory.  Hence my comment.

[butterweedstrover]

On 8/23/2021 at 7:53 PM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It’s not a one to one application of Chriatian mores.  It if was it would be allagory.  Hence my comment.

The central morality is Christian to its core. In many ways it was a correction of the medieval romances (and Beowulf) which while Christian somewhat floundered in their consistency (magical rituals and non-angelic fetishizing).  

But I am curious, in what way is the series not overtly Christian? There are few direct allegory (I don't think Sauron is an allegory to Satan) but that does not impede its mythological basis as Christian.  

[Derfel Cadarn]

8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The central morality is Christian to its core. In many ways it was a correction of the medieval romances (and Beowulf) which while Christian somewhat floundered in their consistency (magical rituals and non-angelic fetishizing).  

But I am curious, in what way is the series not overtly Christian? There are few direct allegory (I don't think Sauron is an allegory to Satan) but that does not impede its mythological basis as Christian.  

Morgoth is essentially Satan

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

6 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Morgoth is essentially Satan

Lucifer, not Satan.  They’re not really coextensive.

 

15 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

The central morality is Christian to its core. In many ways it was a correction of the medieval romances (and Beowulf) which while Christian somewhat floundered in their consistency (magical rituals and non-angelic fetishizing).  

But I am curious, in what way is the series not overtly Christian? There are few direct allegory (I don't think Sauron is an allegory to Satan) but that does not impede its mythological basis as Christian.  

The very existence of the Valar and their “roles” in supervising Arda is rather… non-Christian.  The Elves and their reincarnation and their whole existence as a senior sentient species is rathet non-Christian.  The morality on display in “the Silmarillon” was decidedly non-Christian.  

[HoodedCrow]

Tom Bombadil and the Ents were not Christian. It’s more about the attitude of the author, who seems like just what he is.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

36 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Tom Bombadil and the Ents were not Christian. It’s more about the attitude of the author, who seems like just what he is.

Oh, Tolkien was Catholic to his bones.  When Lewis became Christian Tolkien was put out that Lewis became Anglican rather than Catholic.  My point is that while ME is influenced by Christian ideals it is not an allegory for Christianity or a Christian morality play.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Ser Scot A Ellison

[HoodedCrow]

Tolkien has a lot of attitudes to class and gender that were probably enlightened for his time. I read “Mere Christianity” and the point seemed to be…” well, do you have something better”? Yes, I do. Take the good and fix the rest! Next time I am Empress of the world I will see to it:) 

I didn’t like the Last Battle, which was a an allegory. Loved the other books which were more subtle. I got it even as a kid.

And then, Harry Potter has lots about self sacrifice and standing up to “badness”. That sat well. 

[butterweedstrover]

6 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

 

 

The very existence of the Valar and their “roles” in supervising Arda is rather… non-Christian.  The Elves and their reincarnation and their whole existence as a senior sentient species is rathet non-Christian.  The morality on display in “the Silmarillon” was decidedly non-Christian.  

God's biblical portrayal is that of a king. He is the monarch of heaven, and as such reigns supreme. It is, as regards heaven, undemocratic which somewhat supplied the aristocracy with their own ideals. Christians like Milton did read the bible as democratic because all humans are equal under god but the point is that god is described as a monarch. 

Monarchs have advisors and magistrates to rule in their vision. There is also an emphasis on multiple faces, Jesus is the son of god but he is also god. The angels are often times alluded to as parallels for the Greek (latinized) gods like Juno, Jupiter, and the Hellenic gods Athena, Apollo, etc. while also being made of god. 

They often represent the sun or the air or some other element, but otherwise having the Arda serve Eru. These are angels like Michael, Gabriel, etc. who do not necessarily need to exist but do due to the fusion of Hebraic religion and the Roman-Greek world (though Greek was a common language in the modern-day Israel during the time of Jesus because of Alexander the Great so there was primary influence as well). 

The Valar are like Lords (to the king) (also the angels in Paradise Lost are given principalities, titles, etc.). Melkor was banished like which happens to Satan or Lucifer depending on which you prefer. That is probably a more clear Christian allegory but even if it weren't the message is about the values and the morality. 

As for the Elves... 

Firstly the Jews were gods chosen people so senior sentient being is not unfounded. Secondly Tolkien took from Celtic mythology and other British sources (the Mabinogion) for his perception of Elves. He favored Lord Dunsany's depiction of Elves as pure beings. They are from nature and therefore pure like Adam and Eve before the fall. They are made to be ideal, and though some of it takes from non-Christian sources) the morality, not the politics, is Christian. 

What is good in Lord of the Rings is temperance, piety, obedience over ambition, chastity, and all else very much in line with Tolkien's conservative beliefs.  

Edited August 26, 2021 by butterweedstrover

[butterweedstrover]

4 hours ago, HoodedCrow said:

Tolkien has a lot of attitudes to class and gender that were probably enlightened for his time. I read “Mere Christianity” and the point seemed to be…” well, do you have something better”? Yes, I do. Take the good and fix the rest! Next time I am Empress of the world I will see to it:) 

I didn’t like the Last Battle, which was a an allegory. Loved the other books which were more subtle. I got it even as a kid.

And then, Harry Potter has lots about self sacrifice and standing up to “badness”. That sat well. 

He was a conservative for his time, very conservative.  

Though conservative to Tolkien was rather about the aristocracy, monarchy, and the traditional institutions. As for enlightened, that is a subjective word. None of his beliefs were particular progressive or against what was established (not a criticism FYI).  

[HoodedCrow]

I was happy, at first, to read something in which the women did more than have a uterus and lay back.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:48 AM, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The very existence of the Valar and their “roles” in supervising Arda is rather… non-Christian.  The Elves and their reincarnation and their whole existence as a senior sentient species is rathet non-Christian.  The morality on display in “the Silmarillon” was decidedly non-Christian.  

With the Valar, what you're seeing there isn't Christianity, but rather a philosophy that influenced Christianity. Specifically, it's Neoplatonism: the notion of separating out the One (Eru) and the Demiurge (the Valar). Neoplatonism also emphasises that matter is the least real form of existence, and that evil is an absence of good. Boethius goes so far as to think that being evil makes you less real... and it is extremely interesting that Tolkien's Melkor winds up stuck in material form.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:09 AM, butterweedstrover said:

He was a conservative for his time, very conservative.  

Though conservative to Tolkien was rather about the aristocracy, monarchy, and the traditional institutions. As for enlightened, that is a subjective word. None of his beliefs were particular progressive or against what was established (not a criticism FYI).  

His hatred of Apartheid and the British Empire, and his sympathetic views of Jews, would suggest otherwise.

Tolkien was a conservative, of course. But he's really so idiosyncratic that he becomes unclassifiable in any modern sense.

[The Marquis de Leech]

On 8/26/2021 at 11:44 AM, butterweedstrover said:

But I am curious, in what way is the series not overtly Christian? There are few direct allegory (I don't think Sauron is an allegory to Satan) but that does not impede its mythological basis as Christian.  

The mythological basis is Christian Platonist, with heavy influences from Germanic myth (plus the various hodge-podges of folklore, Finnish traditions, Welsh, and Classical material. Plus shout-outs to Shakespeare and Rider Haggard, among others. All filtered through Tolkien's personal linguistic interests). The result is a rich and complicated stew.

Tolkien (and more especially Lewis) would see nothing contradictory about meshing together Christianity and Plato. 

[HoodedCrow]

Well, Plato did allow that exceptional women could be leaders. It’s all about how the Aristos should rule over the plebs. I will bet you that John Roberts loves this. Meanwhile Plato despised the wife of Socrates. I wonder why… Aristotle declared that women should get half the food that men get out of his abundance of logic. St Augustine said something like women were flawed men and logically the only reason for them to exist was to have a uterus. ( because we wouldn’t be able to plough) also women were all considered to be as hapless as Eve, and therefor sinful and unworthy. Because there is a passage in the Bible about how women must be punished for the original sin, they were not supposed to receive pain medication in labor. Queen Victoria stopped some of that. 
Texas wants to put forth laws to reward anyone being a deputized to harass women seeking an abortion. I read its 10k. Don’t look at the Covid, it’s the the uppity women’s.
 

[The Marquis de Leech]

28 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Well, Plato did allow that exceptional women could be leaders. It’s all about how the Aristos should rule over the plebs. I will bet you that John Roberts loves this. Meanwhile Plato despised the wife of Socrates. I wonder why… Aristotle declared that women should get half the food that men get out of his abundance of logic. St Augustine said something like women were flawed men and logically the only reason for them to exist was to have a uterus. ( because we wouldn’t be able to plough) also women were all considered to be as hapless as Eve, and therefor sinful and unworthy. Because there is a passage in the Bible about how women must be punished for the original sin, they were not supposed to receive pain medication in labor. Queen Victoria stopped some of that. 
Texas wants to put forth laws to reward anyone being a deputized to harass women seeking an abortion. I read its 10k. Don’t look at the Covid, it’s the the uppity women’s.

Good grief, there's some serious falsehoods here.

• Plato believed women should be educated, and had the potential to lead, but that's not feminism, that's simply him being a Spartan fanboy - Sparta having better treatment of women than Athens. On the other hand, as per the Timaeus, he thought that bad people were reincarnated as women.
• Plato never bad-mouths Xanthippe. The notion that she's a scold comes from Xenophon.
• Plato's Republic isn't the aristos ruling over the plebs. It's that a class of well-trained Philosophers should rule (who are raised collectively. We're not talking hereditary aristocracy). Though in the Statesman he's keener on a constitutional monarchy with a written law and a Senate.
• Not defending Aristotle. The guy was Sheldon Cooper in a toga. An insufferable genius.
• Augustine does think women are inferior, but he's very progressive by the standards of his era. He spends a while in The City of God arguing that female rape victims were not culpable, and were still chaste (sin being a decision of the mind, not a matter of what is going on with the body). The guy also dearly loved his girlfriend. I've got no idea where you're getting the notion that Augustine thought women ought to be blamed for original sin - he's very harsh on both Adam and Eve alike with his notions of original sin.

There's a lot to be wary of about Plato (eugenics!) and Augustine ("submit to theocracy, you evil motherfucker"), and Augustine thought that goat's blood dissolved diamond... but they're pretty good (or at least tame) so far as Classical Era misogyny go.

Edited August 28, 2021 by The Marquis de Leech

[HoodedCrow]

St Augustine dumped his girlfriend because his Christian mentor told him to. The mother of his child ( who he was unable to marry) , was sent away. Then St Augustine recommended celibacy, for which he founded a monastery.

Yes it is progressive to suggest that women who have been raped are not culpable. 
 

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

1 minute ago, HoodedCrow said:

St Augustine dumped his girlfriend because his Christian mentor told him to. The mother of his child ( who he was unable to marry) , was sent away. Then St Augustine recommended celibacy, for which he founded a monastery.

Yes it is progressive to suggest that women who have been raped are not culpable. 

Sending away his girlfriend profoundly upset him. He wasn't a callous monster, but rather someone who had to deal with very real emotions.

He was, of course, (North African) Roman, however. Arguing that rape victims were not Defiled Forever struck at the literal heart of Rome's own mythos - he argues that Lucretia's suicide was the murder of an innocent, not something to be celebrated by Rome. So, yes, the guy was progressive there, to the point where he was literally willing to debunk his own nation's "founding myth."

[HoodedCrow]

Aww.  St Augustine died a very sad man, but he gets points for not fornicating anymore. My heart bleeds.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

10 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

With the Valar, what you're seeing there isn't Christianity, but rather a philosophy that influenced Christianity. Specifically, it's Neoplatonism: the notion of separating out the One (Eru) and the Demiurge (the Valar). Neoplatonism also emphasises that matter is the least real form of existence, and that evil is an absence of good. Boethius goes so far as to think that being evil makes you less real... and it is extremely interesting that Tolkien's Melkor winds up stuck in material form.

That is a damn good point.  Many people don’t realize how much of current Christian dogma is… borrowed from Neo-Platonism.