Time and Causality 2

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Tucu said:

These names are also used in ASOIAF. From Arya II in AFFC:

 

The kindly man also says that all these gods are aspects of the many-faced god.  How are the first gods that Arya sees manifesting as characters in the story now? Selmy is the only character specifically described as the hooded man leaning on a staff.  I think we are being told that others characters in the story have the same significance as Selmy as the hooded man.  Delving into the meaning or legends of the hooded man might tell us something about the role Selmy will play. 

[LynnS]

To put this in another context, I'll use Bran as an example.  He's crippled and wed to the tree.  Presumably, he needs others as agents to act on his behalf.  Also referring to the faith of the seven who were 'gods' who came down from the heaven's to walk the earth... are we really talking about men and women who are the agents of the old gods.  All these gods that Arya sees in the HoB&W; are they reincarnations of the same agents being recycled?  The first statues Arya encounters seem to be the most important.  So do they represent characters in the story now and who are they?  

The second question is whether or not the first long night encompassed the whole of Planetos since these agents are Eastern gods.  Was this before the Wall was raised?  Were the greenseers and cotf battling something on Essos.

[hiemal]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

To put this in another context, I'll use Bran as an example.  He's crippled and wed to the tree.  Presumably, he needs others as agents to act on his behalf.  Also referring to the faith of the seven who were 'gods' who came down from the heaven's to walk the earth... are we really talking about men and women who are the agents of the old gods.  All these gods that Arya sees in the HoB&W; are they reincarnations of the same agents being recycled? 

I am inclined to think so- that ultimately the Long Night catastrophe must keep repeating with the same masks on different faces until whatever put time out of joint is put right.

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The first statues Arya encounters seem to be the most important.  So do they represent characters in the story now and who are they?

I think that's the Weeping Woman of Lys- I don't know enough about her or why she weeps to say with anything other than sheer tinfoil bravado but if she isn't one who weeps for the plight of all the prostitutes her city employs than perhaps

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"Alyssa Arryn had seen her husband, her brothers, and all her children slain, and yet in life she had never shed a tear. So in death, the gods had decreed that she would know no rest until her weeping watered the black earth of the Vale, where the men she had loved were buried. Alyssa had been dead six thousand years now, and still no drop of the torrent had ever reached the valley floor far below. Catelyn wondered how large a waterfall her own tears would make when she died. "Tell me the rest of it," she said."

AGoT

Tysha or Shae maybe if the former, Cat if the latter?

As for the Lion of Night, Tywin wouldn't be a bad guess, but the death that qualifies him for The Night also renders him toothless. I, however, suspect that the Lion of Night might be the Moon, i.e., the Many-Faced-God, whose dark face at least is championed by Jaqen H'ghar.

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The second question is whether or not the first long night encompassed the whole of Planetos since these agents are Eastern gods. 

Probably, since it seems as though the seasonal disorder is also planetary.

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  Were the greenseers and cotf battling something on Essos.

The Bloodstone Emperor and his forces, I think.

Prophecy is for me an especially interesting example of time and causality. Ever since Daenys's dream shackled the Targaryens to Westeros and to destiny. I think some were driven mad by it, like Aerys II, while others perhaps appeared mad or wicked trying to either bring about these visions or prevent them (as I think maybe Aegon IV might have been if he actually wasn't as Unworthy as history remembers him as).

 

 

[LongRider]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

-pale infant: Bakkalon (a god in GRRM's Thousand Worlds)

Bakkalon also carries a sword and apparently Tyrion told Penny that Bakkalon is another name for death.  
 

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Tyrion Lannister mentions the Pale Child to Penny during the second siege of Meereen as another name for death.^{[5]    (from the WIKI which notes this is from a WOW chapter)}

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think these gods are also stand-ins for characters in the story as well.

There is a pale babe at the Wall known as Monster.  hmmm, Plenty of death at the Wall these days.     

[Melifeather]

I’ve brought up the idea before that history is unfolding in reverse. The order of migration is going backwards, and just as we expect to see a second Nights King, we should also see a second Age of Heroes. I think these people that seem to be reenacting the gods walking on earth are the representations of this Age of Heroes.

Recall the brothers on the Quiet Isle have been “collecting” Rhaegar’s “rubies” which seem to be human manifestations of the Maiden, Mother, Crone, Warrior, Father, Smith, and Stranger. They said they were only looking for the seventh which apparently they haven’t identified yet. I’d wager Lady Stoneheart may be the Crone since she’s credited with letting the first raven into the world. Maybe it’s a stretch to associate the first raven with Bran??? What do you all think? Brienne seems to be the Maiden or maybe even the Warrior. I think some of the gods that walked the earth are no longer living, because I think Robert Baratheon was arguably the Smith. Tyrion could still be Hugor Hill. Did he “pluck” these wandering stars?

[LongRider]

4 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Recall the brothers on the Quiet Isle have been “collecting” Rhaegar’s “rubies” which seem to be human manifestations of the Maiden, Mother, Crone, Warrior, Father, Smith, and Stranger.

Interesting idea, could the Stranger already be there in the form of a gravedigger?  I would see Gendry as the Smith, not Robert.  I like the idea of Bri as the Maiden and Dani as the Mother.   About LSH, I just don't know.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, LongRider said:

Interesting idea, could the Stranger already be there in the form of a gravedigger?  I would see Gendry as the Smith, not Robert.  I like the idea of Bri as the Maiden and Dani as the Mother.   About LSH, I just don't know.

The seven would need to be actively interceding for the Faith. Gendry is currently working for Lady Stoneheart, and Daenerys has done nothing so far that could be construed as helping the Faith. If Sandor is the gravedigger then he could possibly be the Stranger. Robert is the Faith’s hero, because it was his rebellion that brought the Faith back into power. The same reasoning could be used for Tywin as well. His actions during the rebellion might make him the father.

[Melifeather]

The topic of ravens and crows is a muddled one. There doesn’t seem to be a clear distinction between the two. Both are associated with magic. Perhaps the only difference is in size and strength?

[LynnS]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:43 PM, hiemal said:

I am inclined to think so- that ultimately the Long Night catastrophe must keep repeating with the same masks on different faces until whatever put time out of joint is put right.

Hello Hiemal.  Dany talks about breaking the wheel which seems to be a reference to the Wheel of Time series.  I've read enough to know this story repeats itself.  I'm interested in the idea that that the normal course of time is broken.  

What does breaking the wheel mean?

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The breaking wheel or execution wheel, also known as the Catherine wheel or simply the Wheel, was a torture method used for public execution primarily in Europe from antiquity through the Middle Ages into the early modern period by breaking the bones of a criminal, and/or bludgeoning him or her to death. The practice was abolished in Bavaria in 1813 and in the Electorate of Hesse in 1836: the last known execution by the "Wheel" took place in Prussia in 1841. In the Holy Roman Empire it was a "mirror punishment" for highwaymen and street thieves, and was set out in the Sachsenspiegel for murder, and arson that resulted in fatalities.[1]

Breaking wheel - Wikipedia

The turning wheel:

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The wheels are turning:

Things have begun developing, unfolding, or progressing .If you're going to act, you have to do it now, but once the wheels are turning, there is no going back.

 

[LynnS]

On 1/5/2021 at 8:43 PM, hiemal said:

The Bloodstone Emperor and his forces, I think.

Is it possible that he was Azor Ahai?  Sometime around 12,000 years ago?  These appearances of AA seem to coincide with the appearance of the red comet which I think also appeared 6,000 years ago with the first invasion of the Andals.  The cutting of the bleeding star into their flesh seems to mark the comets appearance around that time.  If this is true, then the comet would also have appeared 12,000 years in the past. 

[hiemal]

17 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Hello Hiemal.  Dany talks about breaking the wheel which seems to be a reference to the Wheel of Time series.  I've read enough to know this story repeats itself.  I'm interested in the idea that that the normal course of time is broken. 

 

I always thought of it as a cycle of events that must keep happening until whatever created this "loop" is corrected and history can unfold again in a purely linear fashion. I think this has happened several times on Planetos and to different species and that the latest Long Night is only the most recent. Because time is broken, it is "skipping" and anachronisms like mammoths, dinosaurs, bronze age/steel age civilizations existing side by side as well as things like prophecy are going to be a problem until and unless time can be put back in joint.

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hat does breaking the wheel mean?

Quote

The breaking wheel or execution wheel, also known as the Catherine wheel or simply the Wheel, was a torture method used for public execution primarily in Europe from antiquity through the Middle Ages into the early modern period by breaking the bones of a criminal, and/or bludgeoning him or her to death. The practice was abolished in Bavaria in 1813 and in the Electorate of Hesse in 1836: the last known execution by the "Wheel" took place in Prussia in 1841. In the Holy Roman Empire it was a "mirror punishment" for highwaymen and street thieves, and was set out in the Sachsenspiegel for murder, and arson that resulted in fatalities.[1]

Breaking wheel - Wikipedia

I think many Targs are broken by this wheel and the curse of prophecy. To break the breaking wheel perhaps you have to "brake" it? Stop it entirely and restart it?

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The turning wheel:

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The wheels are turning:

Things have begun developing, unfolding, or progressing .If you're going to act, you have to do it now, but once the wheels are turning, there is no going back.

 

Bran gives the lie to that when he speaks to Jon through the weirnet, or at least to some extant.

 

[hiemal]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Is it possible that he was Azor Ahai? 

Absolutely- my personal tinfoil is that he screwed his sister and she died in childbirth creating Lightbringer, the first (humanoid) dragonrider.

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Sometime around 12,000 years ago?  These appearances of AA seem to coincide with the appearance of the red comet which I think also appeared 6,000 years ago with the first invasion of the Andals.  The cutting of the bleeding star into their flesh seems to mark the comets appearance around that time.  If this is true, then the comet would also have appeared 12,000 years in the past. 

And before that and before that time as well.

[Melifeather]

On 1/5/2021 at 7:43 PM, hiemal said:

I am inclined to think so- that ultimately the Long Night catastrophe must keep repeating with the same masks on different faces until whatever put time out of joint is put right.

Exactly. Mummers in a play acting out parts. There are other metaphors mentioned in the books like Cyvasse. The players set up their pieces behind a screen - symbolic of the Wall, no? Once everyone is ready the shield is removed and the game begins.

[hiemal]

35 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Exactly. Mummers in a play acting out parts. There are other metaphors mentioned in the books like Cyvasse. The players set up their pieces behind a screen - symbolic of the Wall, no? Once everyone is ready the shield is removed and the game begins.

4-dimensional cyvasse. the game of gods.