Time and Causality 2

[Seams]

14 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

On the surface its about Aeron Greyjoy otherwise known as Damphair, but there are both older and newer parallels that involve Maester Aemon. ... I study the titled chapters like she stares into the flames, and I post my predictions on HoBaW explaining where I think GRRM is going with his story. 

Love this.

15 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

In the previous Time and Causality thread you brought up Seams well-known sea/see analysis

Not my analysis. I have noticed that Jon and the Great Ranging participants are in the "sea" when he is in the forest.

16 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

I finally realized that the Iron Islands were a parallel to the Iron Throne while studying The Iron Captain. 

LOVE this. This would explain some things. Long ago, I felt that there was a parallel between Theon and the Stark sword, Ice. When Aegon the Conqueror caused Torrhen Stark to bend the knee, he did not confiscate the swords of the northern bannermen and incorporate them into the Iron Throne. On some symbolic level, I bet we are seeing a new "gathering" of the swords that were left out - perhaps only a Stark can obtain the northern swords and/or the Iron Islands "Ironborn" swords that are needed to unite the seven kingdoms.

23 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Aeron and Aemon (older than their kingly brothers) are both "drowned prophets" or at least obsessed with prophecies.

I can tell you've put more thought into this than I have. Up the thread a bit, I theorized that Aemon=Euron and Bloodraven=Aeron Greyjoy. I was exploring the idea that Aemon accompanied Bloodraven to the Wall not out of solidarity or to demonstrate his own surrender of any claim to the throne, but to keep an eye on Bloodraven and ensure that he did not escape south or continue to exercise power. I'd love to read more of what you have seen in the parallels.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

You point out, and I quite agree, that GRRM is telling us to "start back", but its more expansive than rereading a specific chapter.

Oh absolutely. That's what I was trying to say in my OP, that we the readers were being asked to look forwards and backwards, just as the greenseers can. Definitely not to limit oneself to rereading specific chapters, but to restart the entire series with greater clarity than on first read.

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

In the previous Time and Causality thread you brought up Seams well-known sea/see analysis 

This was actually @ravenous reader's find. See & sea, yes, but also the nod to the green sea & greensee, and all that connection brings in terms of greenseeing and the various passages of text providing insight into the magic of the greenseers. I believe she first explored these thoughts on @hiemal's 'Nennymoans thread' .

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

1) Damphair reflects that the Storm God killed his brother and king, Balon. This mirrors the older parallel of Aegon V's death at Summerhal when many of Aemon's family members perished in an element that is the opposite of water, which is of course fire. And the newer parallel of the Storm King, Robert Baratheon who rose in a rebellion that lead to King Aerys death.

2) Victarion had a falling out with Euron over the death of is first wife. The older parallel is the famous falling out between Bloodraven and Bittersteal over Shiera Seastar. The newer parallel was between Aerys and Bloodraven, but it involved an agreed upon death of a woman who shares many parallels to Shiera Seastar as well as to Victarion's Dusky Woman. I'm talking about Lady Serala of Myr who was married to Lord Denys Darklyn of Duskendale. The Dusky Woman's missing tongue is a direct parallel to Lady Serala who had her tongue cut out due to her "poisonous words" as well as her female parts ripped out, which where blamed for "enslaving" her husband, before she was burned to death after the Defiance of Duskendale was put down.

~~~~~~snip~~~~~

Some neat ideas here, I like it. It being Xmas day I haven't really the time to think on and respond to your post, apologies. Thank you for replying to the OP, I too hope to have some more time over the next week to post a bit more. 

On 12/23/2020 at 10:30 PM, Melifeather said:

Happy holidays everyone!

I echo this sentiment, a merry Xmas and happy holidays to everyone. 

[Tucu]

Merry Xmas everyone!

 

[Melifeather]

My apologies for getting a few things wrong in my rush to get my thoughts out. As well as mistaking Seams for Ravenous Reader, I inserted Bloodraven with Aerys II in the Lady Serala parallel. It could not have been Bloodraven as he was already a greenseer by then, so I’ll have to review the text to see if there were anyone else to pair with Aerys. There most definitely is a parallel there. Lady Serala and the Dusky Woman are parallels of Shiera Seastar. It just needs further sorting out.

I have a lot of reading to do yet to catch up on this thread so I’ll try to reserve further comment for a bit. My intent was to provide a few compelling examples to demonstrate my belief that the titled chapters specifically are about past, present, and future parallels. Victarion is Bittersteel to Euron’s Bloodraven, and Damphair is Maester Aemon.

[TheLastWolf]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

and Damphair is Maester Aemon.

[Melifeather]

On 12/12/2020 at 9:08 AM, LynnS said:

I don't think this is an idle boast.  But how can Euron have seen and heard all that he claims unless he is being aided or used by another who does have that power?

I promised to refrain from commenting further until I caught up, but here I am still on page 1 and compelled to post my opinions already! 

IMO the reason why you have suspicions that Euron is being aided by Bloodraven or that he is being aided by something else is due to the layering of past, present, and future parallels within the titled chapters. The repeated history can be examined and mined for additional details that aren't totally spelled out in the current story. Some of the parallels are inverted and some are nearly identical. I'm going to attempt to point out some parallels in the Iron Captain and perhaps they will illuminate additional clues as to what's going on. 

You quoted the following passage from the Iron Captain and subsequent passages from the titled chapters that are centered on the Greyjoys. Its my belief that the Greyjoys are mirroring the Targaryens and Blackfyres. Asha and Theon are the true Targaryen parallels, Euron is the bastard Bloodraven (and weirdly Lady Misery and Daemon I), and Victarion is the bastard Aegor "Bittersteel" Rivers - the bastard that started the whole Blackfyre series of rebellions - and he's a parallel to Aerys I - who not only made Bloodraven his Hand, he was the target of two Blackfyre rebellions.

The Second Blackfyre Rebellion is of special interest to me, because of the destruction of Whitewalls, but that is a separate topic that will have to simmer on the backburner! 

The inversion in this chapter is that while Bloodraven always supported the Targaryen succession, Euron is supporting the "Blackfyre" version of Greyjoy succession. I say that, because if he supported the true royal succession he would support Theon or Asha, but his demand to put himself on the Seastone Chair makes him a "Blackfyre" and a little bit Daemon I combined with Lady Misery - explanation coming further down.  With that parallel in mind, lets reread some of the passage that you have quoted - The Iron Captain and the discussion between Damphair (Maester Aemon) and Euron (Bloodraven).

On 12/12/2020 at 9:08 AM, LynnS said:

A Feast for Crows - The Iron Captain

"We shall have no king but from the kingsmoot." The Damphair stood. "No godless man—"

"—may sit the Seastone Chair, aye." Euron glanced about the tent. "As it happens I have oft sat upon the Seastone Chair of late. It raises no objections." His smiling eye was glittering. "Who knows more of gods than I? Horse gods and fire gods, gods made of gold with gemstone eyes, gods carved of cedar wood, gods chiseled into mountains, gods of empty air . . . I know them all. I have seen their peoples garland them with flowers, and shed the blood of goats and bulls and children in their names. And I have heard the prayers, in half a hundred tongues. Cure my withered leg, make the maiden love me, grant me a healthy son. Save me, succor me, make me wealthy . . . protect me! Protect me from mine enemies, protect me from the darkness, protect me from the crabs inside my belly, from the horselords, from the slavers, from the sellswords at my door. Protect me from the Silence." He laughed. "Godless? Why, Aeron, I am the godliest man ever to raise sail! You serve one god, Damphair, but I have served ten thousand. From Ib to Asshai, when men see my sails, they pray."

The priest raised a bony finger. "They pray to trees and golden idols and goat-headed abominations. False gods . . ."

Damphair declares that no godless man may sit the Seastone Chair. Euron says that he has already sat the Seastone Chair and heard the prayers of many. He has travelled the world and learned of all the different gods and says he knows them all. He’s heard prayers in half a hundred tongues, including pleas for protection.

Bloodraven tells Bran that the weirwoods have no sense of time. He will see the past, present, and future. He will become part of a godhead, have power over nature, have prophetic visions, and the wisdom of ages. Bloodraven sees all - hears all.

Damphair makes the parallel plain when he says to Euron that "they pray to trees". All the gods that Euron describes are parallels to He of Many Faces as well as He Who Shall Not Be Named otherwise known as the Old Gods and the Godhead.

Euron is described as being the most comely of Lord Quellon’s sons with hair as black as a midnight sea, a smooth, pale face with a neat dark beard, and a black leather eye patch covering his left eye. His right eye was blue as a summer sky. Victarion greeted him as “Crow’s Eye”, but Euron corrected him by saying, “King Crow’s Eye, brother.”

An albino, Brynden Rivers had milk white skin, long white hair, and red eyes. On the right side of his face was a red birthmark said to look somewhat like a raven. He lost an eye during the First Blackfyre Rebellion, but preferred to leave the empty socket uncovered. Bloodraven goes on to become the Last Greenseer, and his appearance in dreams is as a Three Eyed Crow. I realize that there are suspicions that the 3EC is another entity, but for the sake of the parallel it works for Bloodraven to be the 3EC.

The titled chapters have layers of past parallels - which mimic tree layers - so the current character can parallel more than one person in history. So while I assert that Victarion is Bittersteel, he is also Aerys I - Daeron's second son. During Aerys I’s time there was much disagreement over the line of inheiritance with the only agreement being that the king must be a Targaryen. This is echoed by Damphair's assertion that only a godly man could sit the Seastone Chair, and the calling of the Kingsmoot to settle the disagreement of succession.

Aerys I never imagined that he would be king. He was a learned man, but his interests lay mainly in books, prophecies, and higher mysteries. He married Aelinor Penrose, but he never showed an interest in getting her with child. Rumor has it that their marriage was never consumated. He was pressured into setting Aelinor aside in hopes that he would impregnate a new wife, but he refused.

Victarion is Quellon Greyjoy's second son. He is an inverted parallel to Aerys I as he has married three times, but he too never succeeded in producing a living heir. His first wife died in childbirth, his second died of a pox, and he killed his pregnant third wife because she became impregnated by Euron. While Aerys I is described as a learned man, Victarion is the opposite. He's a big brute, large and powerful with a broad chest and a flat stomach. GRRM has stated that Victarion is "dumb as a stump" and "a dullard". 

Aerys I faced many difficulites early on in his reign. Many people died during the Great Spring Sickness, the ironborn were reaving up and down the shores of the Sunset Sea, and Bittersteal plotted to take the Iron Throne. Perhaps those were some of his reasons for turning to Bloodraven to serve as his Hand, but it was their shared belief in prophesy that truly drew the two brothers together.

While Victarion had many reasons to want to kill Euron, he believed that nothing was so accursed as the kinslayer. He also believed that an elder brother had rights before a younger, but when Damphair suggested that the Drowned God should decide the next king by calling a kingsmoot, Victarion easily agreed with the brother who spoke with god’s voice. Their shared faith drew the two brothers together.

When Aerys I assumed the crown, the Great Spring Sickness was a plague epidemic that killed tens of thousands of people in the Seven Kingdoms. Symptoms included bouts of diarreah. Bodies were burned in the Dragonpit by pyromancers, and the light of their pyres could be seen glowing even during the day.

Nute the Barber helped Victarion with his Lord Captain’s cloak which was constructed with nine layers of cloth-of-gold, sewn in the shape of a kraken. Underneath his clothes was heavy mail that he wore day and night even though his shoulders were sore and his back ached from the weight. He thinks his pains are easier to bear than bloody bowels caused by poisoned arrows shot by bog devils (crannogmen). One scratch and a few short hours later he could be squirting his life down his legs.

Asha questions Victarion about what happened with Euron three years ago?:

Quote

"He took the Silence east. A lengthy voyage."

"I asked why he went, not where." When he did not answer, Asha said, "I was away when Silence sailed. I had taken Black Wind around the Arbor to the Stepstones, to steal a few trinkets from the Lyseni pirates. When I came home, Euron was gone and your new wife was dead."

"She was only a salt wife." He had not touched another woman since he gave her to the crabs. I will need to take a wife when I am king. A true wife, to be my queen and bear me sons. A king must have an heir.

The layering of tree ring parallels causes me to believe that Euron is, not only a mirror to Bloodraven, but a combination of Daemon I and Lady Misery. Victarion is both Aerys I and Bittersteel, while Asha and Theon represent the true royals. We can look for parallels between Asha and Rhaella and as well as older Targaryen females. Asha's "Lyseni pirates" comment seems to point towards Prince Daemon I Targaryen who took a pale Lysene dancer as his mistress. Her name was Mysaria, but everyone called her Lady Misery or referred to her as the White Worm. She became Daemon's favorite and later an accomplished Mistress of Whispers on par with Bloodraven. Daemon, for his part, gave himself the title of King of the Stepstones and the Narrow Sea. Mysaria became pregnant while on Dragonstone so Daemon gave her an egg, which angered King Viserys I who demanded the egg be returned. Daemon sent Mysaria with the egg to Lys, but she lost the child while crossing the Narrow Sea.  I suspect that the "trinkets" that Euron stole in Lys may have been the dragon egg that Mysaria took with her to Lys. 

I think I've found the answer to which Targaryen Asha is mirroring in this chapter: 

Quote

Some said that Daemon's support for his brother in the Great Council was motivated by the belief he would be his brother's heir. But in Viserys's mind, he already had an heir: Rhaenyra, his sole daughter by his cousin, Queen Aemma of House Arryn. Rhaenyra was born in 97 AC, and as a child her father doted upon her, and took her everywhere with him—even to the council chamber, where he encouraged her to watch and listen intently. For these reasons, the court doted on her as well, and many paid homage to her. The singers dubbed her the Realm's Delight, for she was bright and precocious—a beautiful child who was already a dragonrider at the age of seven as she flew on the back of her she-dragon Syrax, named for one of the old gods of Valyria.

My conclusion is that Asha is more than a parallel for Rhaella or even Rhaenyra. She's a parallel for every female Targaryen heir that should have inherited the throne, but for one reason or another was supplanted by a male heir. Rhaenyra was (of course) part of the first Dance of the Dragons which ended when she was burned and eaten by her brother's dragon. The reference to the stolen trinket was to bring our attention to Mysaria so that we'd understand which Targaryen female Asha was being compared to in this chapter as well as provide a clue as to how and where Euron had gotten his dragon egg.

Asha is the daughter of King Balon Greyjoy and Alannys Harlaw, and Victarion is her uncle and Damphair's chosen to be Balon's heir. She is currently unwed, but romantically connected to two men: Tristifer Botley, and Qarl the Maid. When Asha goes to Victarion to suggest that they share the rule it causes Victarion to think that she’s proposing that they marry, but when he crosses his arms and declares that the Seastone Chair seats but one, Asha clarifies that she meant that she wanted to be his Hand.

Queen Rhaella Targaryen was the sister, wife, and queen of King Aerys II Targaryen, and the only daughter of King Jaehaerys II. Her grandfather was King Aegon V. Rhaella was the mother of Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. In her youth she was in love with Ser Bonifer Hasty (sounds a bit like Tristifer Botley) a young landed knight from the Stormlands. She married her brother on the command of her father, who had been influenced by a woods witch brought to court by Jenny of Oldstones. On the same day as her grandfather and his eldest son perished in the Tragedy at Summerhall, Aerys II became crown prince and Rhaella gave birth to Rhaegar.

 

 

[Melifeather]

On 12/13/2020 at 5:52 AM, LynnS said:

When Euron asks "How do you know you can fly unless you try";  It calls to mind his fall from the cliffs of Pyke as a boy and the subsequent brain damage causing the "crow's eye"; a permanently dilated pupil.  He says that when he woke up, he asked the maester whether it was possible to fly.   This is a parallel to Bran's experience and Euron may well have been in a coma as well.

I think we are getting the sense in DwD, that the Greyjoys have latent skinchanging or 3rd eye capabilities. That might be true of Euron, Aeron and Theon.  Like Theon, Aeron may have the ability to sense what lies beyond the veil.

Your reasoning is sound and logical, but I think there is a second possible explanation for Theon's abilities. As suggested in my previous post that Asha and Theon are the true Targaryen parallels, I think we can look to Aerys II and Rhaegar as being parallels for Theon. Aerys II is the subject of a prophecy and Rhaegar was obsessed with fulfilling it. Targaryens are a magical family too like the Starks, having dragons vs direwolves. Aerys II and Rhaegar had the ability to bond with dragons inside them. Its just that their dragon eggs didn't hatch. Either the family forgot how to do it or there was something missing in their attempts. I suspect that there were many attempts during Aerys II's reign that were performed in the black cells under Maegor's Holdfast. The long list of dead siblings that Rhaegar had could have been explained as natural deaths, but they might also be attributed to failed rituals where they tried to get the children's eggs to hatch.

While Asha is every female Targaryen passed over by a male, it’s her Rhaella/Daenerys pairing versus Theon’s Aerys II/Rhaegar that is most compelling if we’re curious about guessing where Asha’s and Theon’s fates lay. Keeping inversions in mind it may turn out that it’s actually Asha that is killed in battle while Theon survives. But that’s only one possible outcome. Daenerys succeeded in fulfilling the Prince that was Promised prophecy that the woods witch predicted would come through Aerys and Rhaella after Rhaegar died. Will there be an inverted fulfillment of this prophecy with Theon and Asha? 

[Melifeather]

On 12/13/2020 at 8:00 AM, LynnS said:

This is interesting because of references to the screaming iron hinge that heralds Euron's arrival.  It calls to mind that the Wall is a hinge of the world with a ghost door, the Black Gate.  When Euron assaults his brothers, I think the screaming hinge is a metaphor for the door to the mind and he assaults his brothers physically and mentally by invading their minds.  The reason they are also called mad.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

I promised to refrain from commenting further until I caught up, but here I am still on page 1 and compelled to post my opinions already! 

I am once again bedazzled.  I get lost in the complexity of inversions and parallels.  I admit to sketchy knowledge of the characters involved.  

I am still trying to work out the parallels between Euron/Aeron and Bloodraven/Aemon mentioned in Seams post.  It may be that Aemon went to the Wall to avoid being crowned or he may have wanted to keep an eye on Bloodraven.  I think it likely that Aemon not only discussed prophecy with Rhaegar but with Bloodraven as well.  I'm not sure what kind of relationship they might have had or how and why BR ended up wed to the tree.    In other word, what compelled BR.

The thing that stands out most for me is the blood moon over Volantis, potentially a moon door with BR spying out the land and it reflection on the sea.  The twin, Euron who now calls himself the Blood Eye.

I'm also not sure what Aemon knew of the old gods and the COTF.  I don't think he was as skeptical as was Luwin for example.  Nobody in the Watch even mentions BR including Aemon.  

[Melifeather]

23 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm also not sure what Aemon knew of the old gods and the COTF.  I don't think he was as skeptical as was Luwin for example.  Nobody in the Watch even mentions BR including Aemon. 

I have heavily edited my post while you were commenting so I hope you reread post 107.

As for Maester Aemon, we know he went to the Wall with Bloodraven who served long enough to get elected Lord Commander , and if my memory is correct he served like 12-13 years. So it’s odd that Aemon doesn’t bring up Bloodraven from time to time. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

While Asha is every female Targaryen passed over by a male, it’s her Rhaella/Daenerys pairing versus Theon’s Aerys II/Rhaegar that is most compelling if we’re curious about guessing where Asha’s and Theon’s fates lay. Keeping inversions in mind it may turn out that it’s actually Asha that is killed in battle while Theon survives. But that’s only one possible outcome. Daenerys succeeded in fulfilling the Prince that was Promised prophecy that the woods witch predicted would come through Aerys and Rhaella after Rhaegar died. Will there be an inverted fulfillment of this prophecy with Theon and Asha? 

Circling back to Asha/Rhaella/Daenerys versus Theon/Aerys II/Rhaegar for a bit...one of the released chapters from Winds has Theon in Stannis’s custody while preparations are being made for a battle. Asha believes Stannis intends to execute Theon so she requests that it takes place at a weirwood: 

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“Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree.”

This passage gives us a general location for Stannis’s camp as being near a lake, and many readers have posited that there may be a battle on the ice - a frozen version of the Battle on the  Trident where Rhaegar and his army dies. Will Theon also die during this battle on ice or will it be Asha instead? Will Stannis’s army prevail over the northern alliance? We have seen many inverted parallels but sometimes the inversions only take place with certain characters and sometimes the outcomes are the opposite so it remains to be seen if Stannis's army perishes like Rhaegar's at the Trident against the northern alliance, or if its the northern alliance that perishes instead.

 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

“Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree.”

There has been some interesting speculation that Theon could become Bran's voice if he is given to the tree; that Bran could speak to Stannis and his troops through Theon.  

[Melifeather]

I'd like to focus on the point that Stannis himself is also a second son - an oft repeated theme which I believe harkens back to the Nights King and maybe even the Last Hero. Interestingly the banner of the mercenary sellsword Second Sons is of a broken sword. Is this perhaps a reference back to when the Last Hero's sword broke? The Nights King story is much more about second sons than the Last Hero, but perhaps its only because the connection hasn't been found yet? It does occur to me that the broken sword may symbolize a broken line of legitimate inheritance.

Awhile back I noted a number of parallels between Big Walder and Little Walder that are echoed by Bran and Rickon, Robb Stark and Jon Snow, and Aemon Steelsong and Gilly's son Monster. Big Walder, Little Walder, Bran, and Rickon are all legitimate sons, but the younger is larger than the elder. Big Walder is smaller in stature than Little Walder, but he's called "big" because he's the elder. Bran will likely never grow larger than he is now. I believe he became undead once he consumed the weirwood paste, so Rickon will probably grow up to be larger than Bran.  

Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Aemon Steelsong, and Monster are pairings of one legitimate child and one bastard, with the bastard being the elder yet smaller of the two. Jon Snow was born before Robb Stark, but he's smaller and more graceful than the robust Robb. Gilly notes that Dalla's child is more robust and cries more than her smaller, quieter Monster.

The two miller's children that Theon and Ramsay killed could be included in this second son/smaller yet elder parallel. The bigger question though is why is this theme repeated? I believe Theon's and Ramsay's actions at Winterfell may hold the answers as to what really happened once upon a time ago.

Theon and Ramsay take turns playing "Reek". A quick aside. What could "Reek" also imply other than Ramsay's friend smelling really badly? Something "stinks" about Winterfell and its not just the dead in the crypts. First off, the original Reek is dead so when Ramsay is Reek and subsequently when Theon is Reek, they are both impersonating a ghost: the ghost of Reek. Furthermore, I believe this ghost of Reek also becomes the Ghost in Winterfell. Impersonating is the main point to remember when reviewing the second son/smaller yet elder parallel.

After Theon captured Winterfell he played the new lord while Ramsay pretended to be Reek. They kill the miller's sons - two young boys whose identities they conceal with tar. It's implied in the text that the miller's boys may be Theon's bastards since Theon has bedded the miller's wife multiple times. (bastards living under the miller's roof as his sons) "Reek" had three of Ramsay's men with him - each of them are found murdered.

During the second occupation of Winterfell, Theon and Ramsay trade places. Ramsay is the new lord of Winterfell and Theon is designated to be Reek. Three more men are murdered. This time they are three men that helped Ramsay take Winterfell away from Theon. The two (possibly Theon bastards) miller's boys are replaced by legitimate trueborn Frey sons Big and Little Walder, because new "Reek" is confused about the length of time he had been kept in a cell:

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Out in the yard, night was settling over the Dreadfort and a full moon was rising over the castle's eastern walls. Its pale light cast the shadows of the tall triangular merlons across the frozen ground, a line of sharp black teeth. The air was cold and damp and full of half-forgotten smells. The world, Reek told himself, this is what the world smells like. He did not know how long he had been down there in the dungeons, but it had to have been half a year at least. That long, or longer. What if it has been five years, or ten, or twenty? Would I even know? What if I went mad down there, and half my life is gone? But no, that was folly. It could not have been so long. The boys were still boys. If it had been ten years, they would have grown into men. He had to remember that. I must not let him drive me mad. He can take my fingers and my toes, he can put out my eyes and slice my ears off, but he cannot take my wits unless I let him.

Little Walder led the way with torch in hand. Reek followed meekly, with Big Walder just behind him. The dogs in the kennels barked as they went by. Wind swirled through the yard, cutting through the thin cloth of the filthy rags he wore and raising gooseprickles on his skin. The night air was cold and damp, but he saw no sign of snow though surely winter was close at hand. Reek wondered if he would be alive to see the snows come. How many fingers will I have? How many toes? When he raised a hand, he was shocked to see how white it was, how fleshless. Skin and bones, he thought. I have an old man's hands. Could he have been wrong about the boys? What if they were not Little Walder and Big Walder after all, but the sons of the boys he'd known?

Later on Little Walder becomes the new lord of Winterfell's "best boy". I believe this is an important development, and one that repeats history.

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"I can see to my own horse," said Big Walder. Little Walder had become Lord Ramsay's best boy and grew more like him every day, but the smaller Frey was made of different stuff and seldom took part in his cousin's games and cruelties.

Not too much later - another murder. The elder Walter who was smaller than the younger one, was dead. His younger, bigger relation may have been influenced by Ramsay. His motive would have been to move up in the line of inheritance. Did Little Walder kill Big Walder or was it the ghost of Reek? What might be Theon’s motive as the ghost of Reek? I know I've pegged Theon as a parallel to a legitimate Targaryen heir, but how could a Targaryen be involved in murdering a Stark heir thousands of years ago? The Targaryens haven't been in Westeros for more than 300 or so odd years. But wait. The role in the "play" is the "ghost" of Reek. Could the ghost simply be someone that fulfills the role of a conqueror?

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Another murder.

Snow slid from Ser Hosteen's cloaks as he stalked toward the high table, his steps ringing against the floor. A dozen Frey knights and men-at-arms entered behind him. One was a boy Theon knew

—Big Walder, the little one, fox-faced and skinny as a stick. His chest and arms and cloak were spattered with blood.

The scent of it set the horses to screaming. Dogs slid out from under the tables, sniffing. Men rose from the benches. The body in Ser Hosteen's arms sparkled in the torchlight, armored in pink frost. The cold outside had frozen his blood.

"My brother Merrett's son." Hosteen Frey lowered the body to the floor before the dais. "Butchered like a hog and shoved beneath a snowbank. A boy."

Little Walder, thought Theon. The big one. He glanced at Rowan. There are six of them, he remembered. Any of them could have done this. But the washerwoman felt his eyes. "This was no work of ours," she said.

"Theon" thinks Little Walder killed him, or maybe one of the six washerwomen that came with Abel. I am stressing the point that "Theon" thought one of the wildling women or Little Walder killed Big Walder, not "Reek". Reek knows exactly who killed him. Notice the reference to the “scent” of it. It reeks. To quote Shakespeare, something is rotten in Denmark.

The line about something being rotten in Denmark is from the play Hamlet. An officer of the palace guard says this after the ghost of the dead king appears, walking over the palace walls. According to Jojen’s greendream, didn’t Theon’s “sea” effectively go over the walls of Winterfell? The phrase is often used to describe a corrupt leader or misrule.

Which brings me to back to my question about the bastard boys - the miller's sons. I suspect Theon and Ramsay are reprising the corrupt role that another more ancient "conqueror" played in the usurping of the legitimate heir to the lord of Winterfell. A retelling of a story that included the death of a legitimate (robust) trueborn heir, and the (smaller, more graceful) bastard boy that became the legitimized Lord of Winterfell. The descriptions of the roles are more than physical builds. They are clues to legitimacy. It's a repeated storyline that so far Jon Snow has been hesitant to play.

I suspect one of the reasons why GRRM has chosen to name both Frey boys "Walder" has less to do with being named after their grandfather and more to do with providing a hint that there once were two sons of an ancient lord of Winterfell: a larger yet younger legitimate trueborn son murdered by the older yet smaller bastard. The wildlings say their ancestors were confined, because they would not kneel. Was it because they refused to kneel to a bastard that was legitimized in order to become Lord of Winterfell? Ygritte says Jon Snow is an "evil name". I'm thinking its due to this second son pairing of larger/younger/legitimate and smaller/older/bastard theme we keep seeing played out.

[LongRider]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:00 AM, LynnS said:

This is interesting because of references to the screaming iron hinge that heralds Euron's arrival.  It calls to mind that the Wall is a hinge of the world with a ghost door, the Black Gate.

The hinges that screamed at the wall were the hinges in the door to the largest ice cell.  Been doing a little study of the ice cells and the Black Cells.  Since the mentions of the ice cells are fewer, I finished them first and here are my thoughts.  First a description of the cells:

Quote

Carved from the base of the Wall and closed with heavy wooden doors, the ice cells ranged from small to smaller. Some were big enough to allow a man to pace, others so small that prisoners were forced to sit; the smallest were too cramped to allow even that.

However, the first captive of the ice cells we are introduced to is Jon Snow when Janos Slynt has him arrested and thrown in the cells for treason.  The cell Jon is placed in is described as:

Quote

 cell five by five by five, too low for him to stand, too tight for him to stretch out on his back...,heavy wooden door

Jon was placed in this cell for four days until Maester Aemon was able to convince Slynt that he could not hang him.  The info from Jon concerning the ice cells and his dentition is quite brief:

Quote

They had pulled him out this morning, after four days in the ice, locked up in a cell five by five by five, too low for him to stand, too tight for him to stretch out on his back. The stewards had long ago discovered that food and meat kept longer in the icy storerooms carved from the base of the Wall . . . but prisoners did not. "You will die in here, Lord Snow," Ser Alliser had said just before he closed the heavy wooden door, and Jon had believed it. But this morning they had come and pulled him out again, and marched him cramped and shivering back to the King's Tower, to stand before jowly Janos Slynt once more
"That old maester says I cannot hang you," Slynt declared. "He has written Cotter Pyke, and even had the bloody gall to show me the letter. He says you are no turncloak."

Later, Jon Snow imprisons Cregan Karstark and 4 of his men after meeting them south of Mole's Town (to prevent Karstark from claiming guest right or parley.) 

 Karstark and men, according the time line here  were in the cells approx 6 weeks; from 7/1/300 to 8/13/300 when Jon had them moved from the ice cells to the undervaults of the Lord Commanders Tower, due to snow covering the cell doors and burying the cells. 

When Jon opened the door to Karstark's cell:

Quote

It took the guards some time to open his cell, as ice had formed inside the lock. Rusted hinges screamed like damned souls when Wick Whittlestick yanked the door wide enough for Jon to slip through.  *And*  Jon Snow could see his own reflection dimly inside the icy walls.

Now I realize that the screaming hinges and dim refection have been argued over for years and I have no dogs in any of those debates.  What interests me is this; can Bran or BR contact Jon in an ice cell? 

We saw from his time in the cell he did not report anything like that happening to him.  The screaming hinges and dim reflection happened when Jon opened the door from the outside, not when he was inside---magic?  Bran/BR making contact?  the Old Gods?  nothing?

One other thing, Jon placed two wilding corpses from the beyond the Wall WW grove when his latest recruits went to say their vows.  He placed them in a cell and had them chained up, they were left in the cells when the Karstark party was moved. 

And just a little aside, when Jon and party went to the WW groves for the Night Watch vows, there was no moon and the red comet was visible. 

The timeline is: Jon detained in cell for 4 days, two wilding corpses wrapped in chains put in ice cells for storage, Karstark & men put in ice cells.

Not done looking at the Black Cells yet.

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, LongRider said:

The hinges that screamed at the wall were the hinges in the door to the largest ice cell.  Been doing a little study of the ice cells and the Black Cells.  Since the mentions of the ice cells are fewer, I finished them first and here are my thoughts.  First a description of the cells:

However, the first captive of the ice cells we are introduced to is Jon Snow when Janos Slynt has him arrested and thrown in the cells for treason.  The cell Jon is placed in is described as:

Jon was placed in this cell for four days until Maester Aemon was able to convince Slynt that he could not hang him.  The info from Jon concerning the ice cells and his dentition is quite brief:

Later, Jon Snow imprisons Cregan Karstark and 4 of his men after meeting them south of Mole's Town (to prevent Karstark from claiming guest right or parley.) 

 Karstark and men, according the time line here  were in the cells approx 6 weeks; from 7/1/300 to 8/13/300 when Jon had them moved from the ice cells to the undervaults of the Lord Commanders Tower, due to snow covering the cell doors and burying the cells. 

When Jon opened the door to Karstark's cell:

Now I realize that the screaming hinges and dim refection have been argued over for years and I have no dogs in any of those debates.  What interests me is this; can Bran or BR contact Jon in an ice cell? 

We saw from his time in the cell he did not report anything like that happening to him.  The screaming hinges and dim reflection happened when Jon opened the door from the outside, not when he was inside---magic?  Bran/BR making contact?  the Old Gods?  nothing?

One other thing, Jon placed two wilding corpses from the beyond the Wall WW grove when his latest recruits went to say their vows.  He placed them in a cell and had them chained up, they were left in the cells when the Karstark party was moved. 

And just a little aside, when Jon and party went to the WW groves for the Night Watch vows, there was no moon and the red comet was visible. 

The timeline is: Jon detained in cell for 4 days, two wilding corpses wrapped in chains put in ice cells for storage, Karstark & men put in ice cells.

Not done looking at the Black Cells yet.

This was very interesting as I had forgotten about Jon’s imprisonment in an ice cell. What a cruel punishment! Maybe Jon seeing his reflection simply meant he knew exactly how it felt to be locked up in the ice cell?

There is a definite comparison between opening a door in the Wall to entering someone’s mind, especially when the Wall is described as a hinge and Damphair has terrible memories of Euron and a squeaky iron door. Jon’s reflection inside also demonstrates entering a mind. It’s all allegory. This is an interesting topic. I look forward to your next post!

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

On 12/10/2020 at 1:46 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

On my second reading I started to get an intuitive feeling that characters were obfuscating their actions and even their own thoughts from the “Gods” at first, and later me the Reader. As if, we the Readers,  by observing are apart of the story and by some extent an influence. I was shocked at the revelation, and quickly dismissed it as overly obsessing for Martins third quill.

Quill 1- what is told, 2 what is ment, and 3 what is left untold.

Reading your post has been a relief for me. To know what I’m unable to explain may be some what indicative of a correct Reading of the story.

The kicker is.... that someone has written a story, this great, about a Reader who is seeing. and I myself may be involved and the cause.

Didn’t sound crazy until after I typed it..

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Have you an opinion on the idea that all of Westeros is a Garden? That the peoples are not men as we think? That most of the families grew to appear as men. Each related to or grown from an animal, insect, grass, or plant? It ties into the Adam and Cain stuff. A Garden of Martin?  Hemocyanin= green blood from copper and hatred of iron.( even tho it’s purple. Maybe ,green blood is chlorophyll plant people) 

amygdalin and rosacea family?

Or I’m looking to close?

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

Oh and silk worms.

plus any thoughts on sable? I can’t figure it out 

[Tucu]

10 hours ago, LongRider said:

Now I realize that the screaming hinges and dim refection have been argued over for years and I have no dogs in any of those debates.  What interests me is this; can Bran or BR contact Jon in an ice cell?

Probably. Othor and Jafer Flowers were stored in the ice cells and ice didn't block the magic that awoke/controlled them.

Quote

The dead men were carried to one of the storerooms along the base of the Wall, a dark cold cell chiseled from the ice and used to keep meat and grain and sometimes even beer

 

[LongRider]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Probably. Othor and Jafer Flowers were stored in the ice cells and ice didn't block the magic that awoke/controlled them.

I had forgotten about that!  They were dead though and controlled by different magic than what BR and the CotF have, right?  RIGHT?   At any rate, Jon and the Karstark party were living men and did seem to be affected by magic.