Time and Causality 2

[Tucu]

8 hours ago, LongRider said:

    I'm always skeptical of theories and since the new brothers only pledge their life, not their mortal and immortal existence going forward forever, I'm not convinced.  Also, been thinking about the Corn King thing.   Up thread someone mentioned that Bran too is a Corn King.   So a Corn Kings dies; and Bran 'died' at WF at the hands of Theon.   Later the CK is resurrected, and Bran rose from the crypts several days later and was able to make it the CoF and BR undetected.  But Bran never actually dies, his death and rebirth are actually symbolic and I won't dispute the assessment having him considered a CK. 

    So here's the thing for me, I'm one of those fans who don't think Jon is really most sincerely dead.  I think he's alive, might be in coma for awhile, but alive.  Like Bran.  So then how does one resolve the prologue to Dance?  If Jon is in a coma,  warging Ghost while in a coma might be more dangerous that warging when not in a coma. It might take some effort to bring Jon out of the coma and the warging of Ghost at the same time.

    So, could the prologue possibly refer to Bran?  Remember that Jojen, Mrya, and BR all warn Bran about not getting lost in the warg, especially with the birds.  Who's to say?   (well GRRM is, not me certainly)  Bottom line to me tho, I don't think CH will ever be fully explained to us and I hope not to see a zombie Jon Coldhands.

  <<<<<warm drinks, it's cold outside!

Theon is another CK-like character. He was assumed dead by many but he became Reek; then he was resurrected as Theon and might be heading for another death/rebirth as a sacrifice to the Old Gods.

With regards to Jon "resurrection", GRRM seeded a lot of options. The "'tis but a scratch" way, the Mel's wight way and the second life in Ghost are probably the most popular ones. My pet long shot is a second life as one of the two Kar(Stark) present at the Wall.

[Mourning Star]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

With regards to Jon "resurrection", GRRM seeded a lot of options. The "'tis but a scratch" way, the Mel's wight way and the second life in Ghost are probably the most popular ones. My pet long shot is a second life as one of the two Kar(Stark) present at the Wall.

While I do not think it is very likely, I do very much like the idea that it will be Lady Stoneheart, believing all her children dead, will have a moment of redemption and breath here life into Jon and revealing Rob's will (naming Jon his heir), ironically bringing about the very usurpation of her children's right to Winterfell Cat so feared.

And while I'm sharing silly theories, wouldn't it be funny if the crow was trying to say "horn", not "corn".

 

[LongRider]

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I do very much like the idea that it will be Lady Stoneheart, believing all her children dead, will have a moment of redemption and breath here life into Jon

 

6 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

wouldn't it be funny if the crow was trying to say "horn", not "corn".

LSH breathes life into Jon, and the next thing yanno, he pickes up the bugle and becomes The Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy of Castle B!  

And the Brothers jump, when he plays reveille, he's the The Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy of Castle B!    

He played the horn that was promised.   

 

[LynnS]

Here is another personification of the moon:

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI

Mully and Kegs stood inside the doors, leaning on their spears. "A cruel cold out there, m'lord," warned Mully through his tangled orange beard. "Will you be out long?"

"No. I just need a breath of air." Jon stepped out into the night. The sky was full of stars, and the wind was gusting along the Wall. Even the moon looked cold; there were goosebumps all across its face. Then the first gust caught him, slicing through his layers of wool and leather to set his teeth to chattering. He stalked across the yard, into the teeth of that wind. His cloak flapped loudly from his shoulders. Ghost came after. Where am I going? What am I doing? Castle Black was still and silent, its halls and towers dark. My seat, Jon Snow reflected. My hall, my home, my command. A ruin.

One can only imagine Mormont's Raven with it's feathers plumped up against the cold. 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Jon V

The wagons continued on their slow way south through frozen mud and blowing snow. A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.

The chestnut was leafless and skeletal, but its bare brown limbs were not empty. On a low branch overhanging the stream a raven sat hunched, its feathers ruffled up against the cold. When it spied Jon it spread its wings and gave a scream. When he raised his fist and whistled, the big black bird came flapping down, crying, "Corn, corn, corn."

 

In our discussions about moon doors (the Black Gate) and Bran using the moon like an eye to watch Jon and the world;  I want to come back to the story of AA.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Davos I

"A hundred days and a hundred nights he labored on the third blade, and as it glowed white-hot in the sacred fires, he summoned his wife. 'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, and Azor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart. It is said that her cry of anguish and ecstasy left a crack across the face of the moon, but her blood and her soul and her strength and her courage all went into the steel. Such is the tale of the forging of Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes.

We don't find any mention of a crack in the moon followed by meteors in any other legends.  Perhaps we should not take it literally.

What if the crack in the moon refers to a crack in a moon door like the Black Gate or a psychic assault on a Gseer? 

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . ACOK Daenerys IV

Perhaps this is about Bran's growing power, his connection to the black Gate and the smell of death that Ghost-Jon detects at the Skirling Pass..

Or it could be Jon in his icy bed, who is also connected to the power of the Wall.  A blue flower suggests that Jon will be raised by ice. Or by Bran.

 

[Tucu]

10 hours ago, LynnS said:

Here is another personification of the moon:

One can only imagine Mormont's Raven with it's feathers plumped up against the cold. 

In our discussions about moon doors (the Black Gate) and Bran using the moon like an eye to watch Jon and the world;  I want to come back to the story of AA.

We don't find any mention of a crack in the moon followed by meteors in any other legends.  Perhaps we should not take it literally.

What if the crack in the moon refers to a crack in a moon door like the Black Gate or a psychic assault on a Gseer? 

Perhaps this is about Bran's growing power, his connection to the black Gate and the smell of death that Ghost-Jon detects at the Skirling Pass..

Or it could be Jon in his icy bed, who is also connected to the power of the Wall.  A blue flower suggests that Jon will be raised by ice. Or by Bran.

 

There is a moon connection to Roose Bolton that leads to connections to ghosts, cold and ice through his eyes:

Quote

His lordship glanced at the new Reek with eyes as pale and strange as two white moons

Quote

"As you wish." Bolton's pale eyes looked empty in the moonlight, as if there were no one behind them at all. "I mean you no harm, you know. I owe you much and more."

Quote

There was an agelessness about him, a stillness; on Roose Bolton's face, rage and joy looked much the same. All he and Ramsay had in common were their eyes. His eyes are ice. Reek wondered if Roose Bolton ever cried. If so, do the tears feel cold upon his cheeks?

Quote

He had his lord father's eyes—small, close-set, queerly pale. Ghost grey, some men called the shade, but in truth his eyes were all but colorless, like two chips of dirty ice.

 

[TheLastWolf]

20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

And while I'm sharing silly theories, wouldn't it be funny if the crow was trying to say "horn", not "corn"

 

14 hours ago, LongRider said:

He played the horn that was promised.   

What if Tormund's "horn" a.k.a me member, is the Horn of Winter (Joramun-Toramund like Hold the door Hodor) and Jon is the prophesied one to 'blow' it. Maybe 'Long'rider' s 'play' ing it is more appropriate. After all, they have a healthy relationship. 

[Tucu]

57 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

 

What if Tormund's "horn" a.k.a me member, is the Horn of Winter (Joramun-Toramund like Hold the door Hodor) and Jon is the prophesied one to 'blow' it. Maybe 'Long'rider' s 'play' ing it is more appropriate. After all, they have a healthy relationship. 

Fun fact: Tormund Horn-Blower, Thunderfist, Breaker of Ice blew his warhorn 3 times at The Wall

Once when the gate was opened for his wildlings:

Quote

"You are a black-hearted bastard, Lord Crow." Tormund Horn-Blower lifted his own warhorn to his lips. The sound of it echoed off the ice like rolling thunder, and the first of the free folk began to stream toward the gate.

Twice in the Shieldhall:

Quote

At the top of the hall a sagging platform stood. Jon mounted it, with Tormund Giantsbane at his side, and raised his hands for quiet. The wasps only buzzed the louder. Then Tormund put his warhorn to his lips and blew a blast. The sound filled the hall, echoing off the rafters overhead. Silence fell.

Quote

Every man began to shout at once. They leapt to their feet, shaking fists. So much for the calming power of comfortable benches. Swords were brandished, axes smashed against shields. Jon Snow looked to Tormund. The Giantsbane sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time.

The Wall was breached and no one noticed ;-)

[LongRider]

Tiny little moon and Stark connection from Clash, Bran VII as Bran is preparing to leave the crypts and then leave WF.  He names many of his ancestors who are in the crypts.

Quote

Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. 

Walton the Moon King doesn't get mentioned again, just a funny little note.

[LynnS]

13 hours ago, LongRider said:

Tiny little moon and Stark connection from Clash, Bran VII as Bran is preparing to leave the crypts and then leave WF.  He names many of his ancestors who are in the crypts.

Walton the Moon King doesn't get mentioned again, just a funny little note.

Hah! I never noticed that before!  Here's the etymololgy:

Quote

Walton is a toponymic surname or placename of Anglo-Saxon origins. It derives from a place with the suffix tun ('town, farm, hamlet') and one of the prefixes wald ('a wood'), walesc ('foreigner') or walh ('farm worker'). First recorded as a surname in Oxfordshire in the person of Odo de Wolton on the Hundred Rolls in 1273.

A Stark of Wall Town.

 

[LynnS]

Surname History - Walton & Scully Genealogy, Family History (rootsweb.com)

[Tucu]

As @LynnSmentioned the personification of the moon before , I thought of gathering quotes about the personification of the Wolfswood in Asha's chapters. We get images of hateful trees, scratching at the face of the moon and hiding the moon and the stars from the Ironborn.

  

Quote

Lady Sybelle all but lived in her godswood, praying for her children and her husband's safe return. Another prayer like to go unanswered. Her heart tree is as deaf and blind as our Drowned God

Quote

only the trees, the endless trees, soldier pines and sentinels, beech and ash and ancient oaks, chestnut trees and ironwoods and firs. The sound they made was softer than the sea, and she heard it only when the wind was blowing; then the sighing seemed to come from all around her, as if the trees were whispering to one another in some language that she could not understand.

Tonight the whispering seemed louder than before. A rush of dead brown leaves, Asha told herself, bare branches creaking in the wind

Quote

Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.

Quote

The trees were huge and dark, somehow threatening. Their limbs wove through one another and creaked with every breath of wind, and their higher branches scratched at the face of the moon. The sooner we are shut of here, the better I will like it, Asha thought. The trees hate us all, deep in their wooden hearts.

Quote

The trees hid the moon and stars from them, and the forest floor beneath their feet was black and treacherous

Quote

These trees will kill us if they can

Quote

Then the trees erupted all around them, and the northmen poured in howling. Wolves, she thought, they howl like bloody wolves. The war cry of the north. Her ironborn screamed back at them, and the fight began.

 

[Mourning Star]

On 12/16/2020 at 9:38 PM, LynnS said:

We don't find any mention of a crack in the moon followed by meteors in any other legends.  Perhaps we should not take it literally.

While not literal, we do see the moon "crack" before the birth of dragons...

Quote

 

The procession waited on the grassy shore as Dany stripped and let her soiled clothing fall to the ground. Naked, she stepped gingerly into the water. Irri said the lake had no bottom, but Dany felt soft mud squishing between her toes as she pushed through the tall reeds. The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it. Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. The stallion's blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth. Dany cupped her fingers and lifted the sacred waters over her head, cleansing herself and the child inside her while the khal and the others looked on. She heard the old women of the dosh khaleen muttering to each other as they watched, and wondered what they were saying.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

 

The "second moon" here is a reflection on water. The dragons will spring forth from Drogo's funeral pyre.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

While not literal, we do see the moon "crack" before the birth of dragons...

The "second moon" here is a reflection on water. The dragons will spring forth from Drogo's funeral pyre.

Oh nice find!  Goes along with Tyrion's blood moon over Valyria and its twin on the sea.  This can only be Euron who means to break the world, a new god born on the sea.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Is this Aeron tied to the prow of Euron's ship?  

Spoiler

This time, the mutes did not drag him below. Instead, they lashed him to the prow of the Silence, beside her figurehead, a naked maiden slim and strong with outstretched arms and windblown hair … but no mouth below her nose.

They bound Aeron Damphair tight with strips of leather that would shrink when wet, clad only in his beard and breechclout. The Crow’s Eye spoke a command; a black sail was raised, lines were cast off, and the Silence backed away from shore to the slow beat of the oarmaster’s drum, her oars rising and dipping and rising again, churning the water. Above them, the castle was burning, flames licking from the open windows.

When they were well out to sea, Euron returned to him. “Brother,” he said, “you look forlorn. I have a gift for you.”

He beckoned, and two of his bastard sons dragged the woman forward and bound her to the prow on the other side of the figurehead. Naked as the mouthless maiden, her smooth belly just beginning to swell with the child she was carrying, her cheeks red with tears, she did not struggle as the boys tightened her bonds. Her hair hung down in front of her face, but Aeron knew her all the same.

“Falia Flowers,” he called. “Have courage, girl! All this will be over soon, and we will feast together in the Drowned God’s watery halls.”

The girl raised up her head, but made no answer. She has no tongue to answer with, the Damphair knew. He licked his lips, and tasted salt.

"Moon is wife."  I wonder if a crack appeared across Nissa Nissa' face and dragon's poured forth.  

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

Mirri was a god's wife and so to was Nissa Nissa.  Azor Ahai not only forged a sword, but hatching dragons as well? 

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

2 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

On 12/17/2020 at 2:38 AM, LynnS said:

We don't find any mention of a crack in the moon followed by meteors in any other legends.  Perhaps we should not take it literally.

While not literal, we do see the moon "crack" before the birth of dragons...

Quote

The procession waited on the grassy shore as Dany stripped and let her soiled clothing fall to the ground. Naked, she stepped gingerly into the water. Irri said the lake had no bottom, but Dany felt soft mud squishing between her toes as she pushed through the tall reeds. The moon floated on the still black waters, shattering and re-forming as her ripples washed over it. Goose pimples rose on her pale skin as the coldness crept up her thighs and kissed her lower lips. The stallion's blood had dried on her hands and around her mouth. Dany cupped her fingers and lifted the sacred waters over her head, cleansing herself and the child inside her while the khal and the others looked on. She heard the old women of the dosh khaleen muttering to each other as they watched, and wondered what they were saying.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys V

The "second moon" here is a reflection on water. The dragons will spring forth from Drogo's funeral pyre.

This is a good example of the evidence out there for either two moons / one cracking and creating meteors. 

Obviously the thousand, thousand dragons pouring forth from the cracked moon is the go to meteor example. (Meteors being likened to dragons falling from the sky in our real world mythology)

We also have the Azor Ahai myth and Nissa Nissa's cry of anguish & ecstacy leaving a crack across the face of the moon. Add the speculation that Azor Ahai may have been the Bloodstone Emperor (whose blood betrayal ushered in the long night) and you potentially have a cracking of the moon followed by the long night.  

Two separate myths from around Planetos (or whatever you call George's world) is ample in my opinion. Too many straight up moon breaking stories would be beating the reader over the head with the idea I think. The rest is metaphor for the reader to pick up on, like the example @Mourning Star has provided. 

This is my favourite one......

Quote

Benerro jabbed a finger at the moon, made a fist, spread his hands wide. When his voice rose in a crescendo, flames leapt from his fingers with a sudden whoosh and made the crowd gasp. The priest could trace fiery letters in the air as well. Valyrian glyphs. Tyrion recognized perhaps two in ten; one was Doom, the other Darkness.

Having pointed at the moon, Benerro makes a fist, as if that fist is a representation of said moon. The moon (fist) then explodes as he spreads his hand, and that's when we get the flames leaping from fingers representing the meteors. Once the metaphorical moon explodes and flaming metaphorical meteors fall, we get the description of Doom and Darkness to signal the long night. 

I always thought this example was pretty sweet.  

Not trying to prove the theory to anyone, just laying out some of the text that has me agreeing with Lml's take.  

[Mourning Star]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Oh nice find!  Goes along with Tyrion's blood moon over Valyria and its twin on the sea.  This can only be Euron who means to break the world, a new god born on the sea.

Euron is a madman, and I think his role is often blown out of proportion, although clearly he still has a role to play.

Quote

Balon was mad, Aeron is madder, and Euron is maddest of them all. Victarion was turning to go when the Crow's Eye said, "A king must have a wife, to give him heirs. Brother, I have need of you. Will you go to Slaver's Bay and bring my love to me?"

A Feast for Crows - The Reaver

It could be that Victarion, or Aeron are the vision from the House of the Undying. Or perhaps it is someone wearing a dead man's face? At this point it's impossible to know (but still fun to speculate).

Quote

"Moon is wife."  I wonder if a crack appeared across Nissa Nissa' face and dragon's poured forth.  

Mirri was a god's wife and so to was Nissa Nissa.  Azor Ahai not only forged a sword, but hatching dragons as well? 

There are so many options here... and so many cracked faces!

There are the literal cracked faces in Sandor and Shireen, the people who get their faces cracked like Hot Pie and Hodor, and even Ned's dream of Robert's face cracking and becoming Littlefinger.

And of course the sailor from Qarth said the moon was an egg. And when it is full that is easy to see, but when it is a crescent?

Quote

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. A pale sun rose and set and rose again. Red leaves whispered in the wind. Dark clouds filled the skies and turned to storms. Lightning flashed and thunder rumbled, and dead men with black hands and bright blue eyes shuffled round a cleft in the hillside but could not enter. Under the hill, the broken boy sat upon a weirwood throne, listening to whispers in the dark as ravens walked up and down his arms.

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

When the moon is a crescent it is sharp like a knife, or a sword.

I never bought into the idea that there were literally two moons.

Meanwhile the "crack" on the moon I always took to be describing the "stain" on the moon (in Tolkein's words) or the Man of the Moon we might refer too. This got me looking at the origin stories IRL for the "crack" on the moon.

There is the western "man on the moon" who is seen as an old man gathering sticks, sometimes depicted with a dog.

I hope to follow this up at some point with more about the connection between the moon and the weirwoods.

There is the Norse Mani, the moon, whose sister was Sol, the sun. Both are pursued through the heavens by wolves to the "protecting woods".

Quote

The sun, the sister of the moon, from the south
Her right hand cast over heaven's rim;
No knowledge she had where her home should be,
The moon knew not what might was his,
The stars knew not where their stations were.

...

Mundilferi is he who began the moon,
And fathered the flaming sun;
The round of heaven each day they run,
To tell the time for men.

Mundilferi is essentially father time, which I thought was just to good not to share in this thread.

It is theorized that the Norse legend of the boy and girl taken by the moon when they were gathering water from a well (and make up the image on the moon) is a predecessor to our more modern "Jack and Jill" nursery rhyme.

Finally, in China, there is the story of Wu Gang. He was banished to the moon and sentenced to cut down a perpetually regrowing tree (representing the phases of the moon) in a sort of Sisyphus like punishment for killing his wife's lover, the grandson of Yandi "the flame emperor", after they had three children.

I can't help but enjoy drawing parallels to ASoIaF!

In conclusion, I want to bring back up this quote, as I think it is wildly important:

Quote

You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you … and I need both of you, gods help me.

A Game of Thrones - Arya II

Lucifer, "Lightbringer", the morning star, and Vesper, the evening star, are both the planet Venus, Love.

Hesperus is Phosphorus.

Saul Kripke used the sentence to posit that the knowledge of something necessary (in this case the identity of Hesperus and Phosphorus) could be empirical rather than knowable a priori.

It is one thing to know how one is described and another to know who you are.

The games GRRM plays with chapter title names may even reflect an understanding of these ideas.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

This is a good example of the evidence out there for either two moons / one cracking and creating meteors. 

Obviously the thousand, thousand dragons pouring forth from the cracked moon is the go to meteor example. (Meteors being likened to dragons falling from the sky in our real world mythology)

We also have the Azor Ahai myth and Nissa Nissa's cry of anguish & ecstacy leaving a crack across the face of the moon. Add the speculation that Azor Ahai may have been the Bloodstone Emperor (whose blood betrayal ushered in the long night) and you potentially have a cracking of the moon followed by the long night.  

Two separate myths from around Planetos (or whatever you call George's world) is ample in my opinion. Too many straight up moon breaking stories would be beating the reader over the head with the idea I think. The rest is metaphor for the reader to pick up on, like the example @Mourning Star has provided. 

This is my favourite one......

Having pointed at the moon, Benerro makes a fist, as if that fist is a representation of said moon. The moon (fist) then explodes as he spreads his hand, and that's when we get the flames leaping from fingers representing the meteors. Once the metaphorical moon explodes and flaming metaphorical meteors fall, we get the description of Doom and Darkness to signal the long night. 

I always thought this example was pretty sweet.  

Not trying to prove the theory to anyone, just laying out some of the text that has me agreeing with Lml's take.  

Another image of a drowned moon doom appears in Jon's chapter in the cave behind the waterfall before his fight with Qhorin:

Quote

He took off his wet cloak, but it was too cold and damp here to strip down any further. Ghost stretched out beside him and licked his glove before curling up to sleep. Jon was grateful for his warmth. He wondered if the fire was still burning outside, or if it had gone out by now. If the Wall should ever fall, all the fires will go out. The moon shone through the curtain of falling water to lay a shimmering pale stripe across the sand, but after a time that too faded and went dark.

 

[LynnS]

I don't think there were ever two moons in the sky.  I think there was a red comet and a moon.  A comet that reappears on a long periodic orbit.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

Jon clapped him on the shoulder with his burned hand. They walked back through the camp together. Cookfires were being lit all around them. Overhead, the stars were coming out. The long red tail of Mormont's Torch burned as bright as the moon. Jon heard the ravens before he saw them. Some were calling his name. The birds were not shy when it came to making noise.

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Bran I

Maester Luwin did not think so. "Wolves often howl at the moon. These are howling at the comet. See how bright it is, Bran? Perchance they think it is the moon."

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Davos I

"Salladhor the Beggar, that's what your king has made me," Salladhor Saan complained to Davos, as the remnants of his fleet limped across the Bite. "Salladhor the Smashed. Where are my ships? And my gold, where is all the gold that I was promised?" When Davos had tried to assure him that he would have his payment, Salla had erupted. "When, when? On the morrow, on the new moon, when the red comet comes again? He is promising me gold and gems, always promising, but this gold I have not seen. I have his word, he is saying, oh yes, his royal word, he writes it down. Can Salladhor Saan eat the king's word? Can he quench his thirst with parchments and waxy seals? Can he tumble promises into a feather bed and fuck them till they squeal?"

 

This old Qaartheen tale describes a comet rather than a moon.  Something that was so bright early populations mistake it for a second moon.  

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

Silvery-wet hair tumbled across her eyes as Dany turned her head, curious. "The moon?"

"He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi," the Lysene girl said. "Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return."

 

A thousand thousand dragons could very well be meteorites, but I doubt they all fell on Planetos or there would be no life left.  So the moon with a crack across it's face sounds like the comet to me.

[Frey family reunion]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think there were ever two moons in the sky.  I think there was a red comet and a moon.  A comet that reappears on a long periodic orbit.

This old Qaartheen tale describes a comet rather than a moon.  Something that was so bright early populations mistake it for a second moon.  

A thousand thousand dragons could very well be meteorites, but I doubt they all fell on Planetos or there would be no life left.  So the moon with a crack across it's face sounds like the comet to me.

I agree.  If there were two actual moons in orbit around the planet, more civilizations would have tales of two moons.  The fact that it seems limited to Qarth makes me think that it was a temporary phenomena like a comet being temporarily trapped in the planet's orbit.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I agree.  If there were two actual moons in orbit around the planet, more civilizations would have tales of two moons.  The fact that it seems limited to Qarth makes me think that it was a temporary phenomena like a comet being temporarily trapped in the planet's orbit.

It would have to be very close for the planet's gravity to capture it.  But it could explain an alteration to the planet spinning on it's access, an increased wobble at the poles causing the seasons to become eccentric.  

GRRM says the imbalance in the seasons is not astronomical.  So what are we to make of the red comet which increases fire magic?  Red comets don't exist in nature.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

20 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

28 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think there were ever two moons in the sky.  I think there was a red comet and a moon.  A comet that reappears on a long periodic orbit.

This old Qaartheen tale describes a comet rather than a moon.  Something that was so bright early populations mistake it for a second moon.  

A thousand thousand dragons could very well be meteorites, but I doubt they all fell on Planetos or there would be no life left.  So the moon with a crack across it's face sounds like the comet to me.

I agree.  If there were two actual moons in orbit around the planet, more civilizations would have tales of two moons.  The fact that it seems limited to Qarth makes me think that it was a temporary phenomena like a comet being temporarily trapped in the planet's orbit

I agree this idea holds a lot of merit, with some really enticing passages of text. I certainly haven't ruled this option out. Thanks for reminding me of some of these quotes. 

I have to admit, I think I'm rather biased having been involved in a lot of the chat prior to & after any of the moon meteor essays being released. I like the many examples of moon faces being slashed or shards of swords/shards of ice etc acting as meteor symbolism. 

I am always open to other ideas though.