Time and Causality 2

[LongRider]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

So I wonder if BR has planned his escape from the weirnet and if he is as benign as we think.

Doubts about Bloodraven?   Me too and I don't trusts the CoF either.   So which makes me throw out this question; Howland Reed, what does he know of BW, CoF and greendreams and greenseeing?  Has he been duped by BW, CoF to send his children away on their errands?  We know so little of Howland, Graywater Watch and craggolands.   

 

edt: LynnS thanks for the info on Euron as I know so little about him.   

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I wonder how this is connected to Jaime's dream of Brienne.  Where is the cold place with it's pool of water.  I suspect beneath Casterly rock.  Jaime dreams of his dead ancestors including Tywin, Cersei and Joffrey; who are not yet dead.  It doesn't include his mother who is likely buried at Casterly Rock.  What is she telling him?  That he has forgotten her? 

The Jamie and Brienne dream takes place in the Lannister underworld below Casterly Rock. He is guided by all the Lannisters further down into the caves and there they are faced with the ghosts of Rhaegar and the KGs armored in snow. I mentioned before that both the KGs and the WWs are described as white shadows across the books; so in his dreams the KGs are white shadows armored in snow...just like a WW.

I take this dream as an explanation of some aspects of the WW and the Others. Tormund adds some extra details in this quote:

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Tormund turned back. "You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up … how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"

In Jamie's mother dream, she also has some features that I think link her to the Others but she is not there to fight Jamie; she seems to be there to guide him.

[Tucu]

@LynnS

You might be interested in this quote from Bran in GoT when they go to look for Ned in the crypts. It has some curious language

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Bran could not recall the last time he had been in the crypts. It had been before, for certain. When he was little, he used to play down here with Robb and Jon and his sisters.

For a normal man, "before" would be the only option. But out-of-time Bran has more options.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

42 minutes ago, Tucu said:

@LynnS

You might be interested in this quote from Bran in GoT when they go to look for Ned in the crypts. It has some curious language

For a normal man, "before" would be the only option. But out-of-time Bran has more options.

*Nods approvingly*

Nice!  

Edit: The word 'before' is italicized as well. 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

@LynnS

A quick dive back into the Jon dream you posted. Jon is inside Ghost (as we know, that's how good old wolf dreams work) but for the purposes of a potential symbolic message it's also how 2nd life works.

LML has pointed out in his new Jon video that when the raven wakes him from that dream, it reads as not only awakening from a dream, but also as foreshadowing for his resurrection. It's like someone is trying to reach Jon when he's living his 2nd life in Ghost and when they do eventually contact him he is resurrected. Anyway, thought that was neat so reckoned I'd post it here.  

[LynnS]

49 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

@LynnS

A quick dive back into the Jon dream you posted. Jon is inside Ghost (as we know, that's how good old wolf dreams work) but for the purposes of a potential symbolic message it's also how 2nd life works.

LML has pointed out in his new Jon video that when the raven wakes him from that dream, it reads as not only awakening from a dream, but also as foreshadowing for his resurrection. It's like someone is trying to reach Jon when he's living his 2nd life in Ghost and when they do eventually contact him he is resurrected. Anyway, thought that was neat so reckoned I'd post it here.  

Interesting.  Can we consider the icicle falling from the tree an attempt tp spear Jon's soul with ice?

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"Snow." An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. "Snow!" His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. "Snow, snow, snow!" He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow's chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. "SNOW!" it screamed into his face.

This is the point where the raven begins it's attempt to wake Jon.   It feels like the icicle is a threat.  Just recalling how Sam meets the WW.  Starting with snow tumbling from a tree.  They are made of snow and ice and cold. 

Do you have a link to LML's new video?

[Curled Finger]

On 12/12/2020 at 11:08 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

- A frozen stream: has me visualising the river of time being frozen. This is very intriguing, what is the significance of the river being frozen rather than flowing? Any opinions would be welcome.

What sings to me in this passage of text is the potential awareness the tree has in dropping an icicle to get Ghosts attention. It's like when the snow falls on top of Bran to cover and protect him outside Bloodraven's hollow hill. Or the tree reaching out with limb and leaf to touch someone, ala Jon or Theon. These trees all seem sentient, which screams greenseer presence.

Also love the moon door connection, so great! I shall leave it there for now, but your post certainly got my greenseer radar beeping! Great stuff. 

Gads, Wizz, I nearly jumped in on every single statement, but settled right here in hope of clarifying what I either think myself or think the conversation is trying to say.   

Time frozen is really interesting.  1st thought popped into my mind was Fire consumes while Ice preserves.  Fire couldn't really consume a river, but if Ice preserves time this frozen stream could be memories, hopes and dreams of the collective or individuals.  ?  Or could it be much more concise, like this moment or year is set aside for maybe a do over, or perfect outcome?  A frozen stream would be inaccessible except through an astral sort of movement, I would think at any rate.  Ice is solid and wouldn't allow any physical movement.  Time frozen could maybe thaw by fire warming the liquid of water back to it's original state.   Could this be what needs to happen to put the seasons and magic back into tact in this world?   What do you think could be contained in a frozen stream of time?  

During my initial read through of the conversation (this is my 3rd now!), I thought I would take a look at "moon", "fire" and "dreams" in all of Arya's chapters.   I was hoping to find indicators of the descriptors of the state of the moon as seen in Bran's chapters.  Nada.  Of course, there were some very interesting findings off to the side of this research.  Arya dreams of being a wolf which I have to think is Nymeria calling to Arya.   Arya dreams some pretty awful things and nearly always awakens to harden her heart a bit more.  Melisandre's #1 priority is to keep the fire in her room going.  It is as though once set alight, the fire connects Melisandre to her own network of visions.  Or something.   Whatever the reason, Mel is invested in her fires staying lit.  Not multiple fires, but it seems to me this is the constant care and feeding of one fire.   Arya hasn't got a lot of connections to fire with the notable exception of the cat jumping into her lap and knowing she is Cat of the Canals though she has taken on another persona.  All this ties back to those crows escorting Arya & The Hound from the BWB.  There is something here though I cannot put my finger on it.   

I think I've got a better handle on the significance of the Moon Gate, maybe doors.   Weirwood lives beyond it's time in the ground as a natural thing.  There is a ward or spell or simple power in this wood that turns to stone, not unlike the Petrified Forest of Redwoods in Northern California.   The wood itself transforms.  There is much talk of acorns and stumps about the weirwoods, but what of this stone matter it becomes?  There is still power within it.   That power seems to affect dreams and subconsciousness, perhaps it is a sort of prophesy Jamie receives in the 1st dream along with all the other beneath the surface things Jamie experiences.  The dead tree at Raventree still calls the ravens home so I conclude that the weirwood material live or dead, contains power that speaks to people and situations differently.   Perhaps the weirwood in the HOBAW balances the force of the ebony?  Something like that.   Charms?  

I'm sure I've jumped over everything I've read here so I will go further annoy others with my thoughts on their thoughts.   Still I would very much like to know what you think could be contained in a frozen stream of time.   

[Curled Finger]

On 12/11/2020 at 2:46 PM, Tucu said:

More cold dreams

I had to put socks on to get through the post!  Burr.   I was looking into Arya and Mel in hopes of tying their fires or dreams or moons back to Bran, which took me nowhere.   However, your cold dreams glared at me in Melisandre's fire visions or dreams or whatever they are and seemed to match some of Aeron's dreams as we read in The Forsaken.   You've done a very nice job tying the cold dreams together.  There is an undeniable theme in these.   What would you make of thematically matching fire dreams? 

[LynnS]

 

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Bran could not recall the last time he had been in the crypts. It had been before, for certain. When he was little, he used to play down here with Robb and Jon and his sisters.

For a normal man, "before" would be the only option. But out-of-time Bran has more options.

Yes, this is very odd.  Also that he can't quite remember.  This sounds very much like his dream of the Skirling Pass  He can't quite remember that either.  This sounds like another echo in time, but we are no told what it's about.  I wonder if this will have something to do with guiding Jon into the crypts as we see i his crypt dream.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.

Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It's black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don't want to. I'm afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it's not them I'm afraid of. I scream that I'm not a Stark, that this isn't my place, but it's no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That's when I always wake." His skin cold and clammy, shivering in the darkness of his cell. Ghost would leap up beside him, his warmth as comforting as daybreak. He would go back to sleep with his face pressed into the direwolf's shaggy white fur. "Do you dream of Horn Hill?" Jon asked.'

I'm not sure why Jon is compelled or forced to go down.  This dream seems to unfold in phases like Dany's wake the dragon dream.

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A Game of Thrones - Jon VII

It is only a wood, Jon told himself, and they're only dead men. He had seen dead men before …

Last night he had dreamt the Winterfell dream again. He was wandering the empty castle, searching for his father, descending into the crypts. Only this time the dream had gone further than before. In the dark he'd heard the scrape of stone on stone. When he turned he saw that the vaults were opening, one after the other. As the dead kings came stumbling from their cold black graves, Jon had woken in pitch-dark, his heart hammering. Even when Ghost leapt up on the bed to nuzzle at his face, he could not shake his deep sense of terror. He dared not go back to sleep. Instead he had climbed the Wall and walked, restless, until he saw the light of the dawn off to the east. It was only a dream. I am a brother of the Night's Watch now, not a frightened boy.

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A Storm of Swords - Jon VIII

He dreamt he was back in Winterfell, limping past the stone kings on their thrones. Their grey granite eyes turned to follow him as he passed, and their grey granite fingers tightened on the hilts of the rusted swords upon their laps. You are no Stark, he could hear them mutter, in heavy granite voices. There is no place for you here. Go away. He walked deeper into the darkness. "Father?" he called. "Bran? Rickon?" No one answered. A chill wind was blowing on his neck. "Uncle?" he called. "Uncle Benjen? Father? Please, Father, help me." Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place. His crutch slipped and he fell to his knees. The crypts were growing darker. A light has gone out somewhere. "Ygritte?" he whispered. "Forgive me. Please." But it was only a direwolf, grey and ghastly, spotted with blood, his golden eyes shining sadly through the dark . .

The cell was dark, the bed hard beneath him. His own bed, he remembered, his own bed in his steward's cell beneath the Old Bear's chambers. By rights it should have brought him sweeter dreams. Even beneath the furs, he was cold. Ghost had shared his cell before the ranging, warming it against the chill of night. And in the wild, Ygritte had slept beside him. Both gone now. He had burned Ygritte himself, as he knew she would have wanted, and Ghost . . . Where are you? Was he dead as well, was that what his dream had meant, the bloody wolf in the crypts? But the wolf in the dream had been grey, not white. Grey, like Bran's wolf. Had the Thenns hunted him down and killed him after Queenscrown? If so, Bran was lost to him for good and all.

This is the last dream we get about the descent into the crypts.  The last dream occurs in DWD:
 

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow," an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared.

The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow," the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom.

 

 Mormont's Raven wakes Jon once again.  The gnarled hand seizing Jon roughly to take him out of his bezerker madness is curious.  By now we can assume that Bran is the raven and an old one at that.

[LynnS]

17 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I had to put socks on to get through the post!  Burr.   I was looking into Arya and Mel in hopes of tying their fires or dreams or moons back to Bran, which took me nowhere.   However, your cold dreams glared at me in Melisandre's fire visions or dreams or whatever they are and seemed to match some of Aeron's dreams as we read in The Forsaken.   You've done a very nice job tying the cold dreams together.  There is an undeniable theme in these.   What would you make of thematically matching fire dreams? 

I was looking at Arya's moon phases also. They don't seem connected to anything in Cantuse's essay but the new moon seems significant.

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A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

"You lie. You are Cat of the canals, I know you well. Go and sleep, child. On the morrow you must serve."

"All men must serve." And so she did, three days of every thirty. When the moon was black she was no one, a servant of the Many-Faced God in a robe of black and white. She walked beside the kindly man through the fragrant darkness, carrying her iron lantern. She washed the dead, went through their clothes, and counted out their coins. Some days she still helped Umma cook, chopping big white mushrooms and boning fish. But only when the moon was black. The rest of the time she was an orphan girl in a pair of battered boots too big for her feet and a brown cloak with a ragged hem, crying "Mussels and cockles and clams" as she wheeled her barrow through the Ragman's Harbor.

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A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

"Good boots are hard to find," said Brusco, "but these are too small for my feet." He picked one up to squint at it.

"The moon will be black tonight," she reminded him.

"Best you pray, then." Brusco shoved the boots aside and poured out the coins to count them. "Valar dohaeris."

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A Feast for Crows - Cat Of The Canals

But before the waif could answer, the kindly man stepped into the chamber, smiling. "You have returned to us."

"The moon is black."

"It is. What three new things do you know, that you did not know when last you left us?"

A black moon or new moon is an eclipse when earth blocks sunlight from reaching the moon. ( A blood moon is an eclipse where to moon passes between the sun and the planet.)

 

[Curled Finger]

22 hours ago, LongRider said:

Perhaps that wanted criminal, Sandor Clegane will end up at the Wall as well.       

What I was hoping to find was some WW in association of the Ironborn and Euron (other than Theon), but did not find any.   The reason for that was the question of; if BR is watching/influencing Euron, how would he do it?   

For all it's worth, I think Jamie, Sandor--and at least 7 more I'm sure (and 3 I am not so sure of) of will head to the Wall.   Time is a wheel, right?  

It's not confirmed, but many believe Nagga's Bones are a petrified weirwood grove.   I get the feeling all this talk of hollow hills and moon gates lends itself to the notion that weirwood, in whatever form, may be necessary for facilitating communication with either the weirwood consciousness or greenseer.   Just a possibility.  

[Curled Finger]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I was looking at Arya's moon phases also. They don't seem connected to anything in Cantuse's essay but the new moon seems significant.

A black moon or new moon is an eclipse when earth blocks sunlight from reaching the moon. ( A blood moon is an eclipse where to moon passes between the sun and the planet.)

 

Haha, that's the student and master right at their work!  Though it's clear black moon means something in Arya's POV, I cannot tie it to anyone else.  It is as though time is different in Westeros, perhaps as has been described in this MOST EXCELLENT conversation, as communication from the weirwood net/Old Gods/COTF/greenseers.  The weirwood products in the HOBAW may be a conduit for Nymeria to connect with Arya, but not be strong enough or even close enough to allow communication from Bran or BR.  Then again, Arya may simply not be strong enough in her powers yet to receive communication if it is meant to happen.  I'm sticking here on your most appropriate term "bond beast" as the driving factor for Arya.  With this in mind, a black moon or void moon would be perfect for a girl who doesn't know the power within herself.  

Great stuff here, @LynnS

[LongRider]

On 12/12/2020 at 10:08 AM, Wizz-The-Smith said:

- A frozen stream: has me visualising the river of time being frozen. This is very intriguing, what is the significance of the river being frozen rather than flowing? Any opinions would be welcome.

The original quote was referring to the Wall, and what has the Wall frozen in time?  Well, not completely frozen perhaps, but if cold preserves an argument could be made that the Watch is 'preserved' in it's rather ancient thinking that the wildings are the enemy.  Now, mummers and conmen's tricks rely on the misdirection of attention to make their tricks look like magic.  Could the NW have been misdirected from who the real enemy is?  Has *something* convinced the NW not to look at other reasons?  For example, why look away from Craster sacrificing his sons?  Didn't Mormont inherent his raven? 

Jon became involved with the wildings and took a spear wife, as other members of the NW have, but came away seeing them as beings within the realms of men.   He brought that message back to the NW, very radical thinking on his part.  Did Jon the warg go off the plan?  Did the supernatural realm, from say the weirnet or the Others influence him?   hmmmmmmmmmm  

[Wizz-The-Smith]

57 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Do you have a link to LML's new video?

Here you go. 

 

[Tucu]

58 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 

Yes, this is very odd.  Also that he can't quite remember.  This sounds very much like his dream of the Skirling Pass  He can't quite remember that either.  This sounds like another echo in time, but we are no told what it's about.  I wonder if this will have something to do with guiding Jon into the crypts as we see i his crypt dream.

 

 

There also is a key bit from his Ned dream that Bran can't remember:

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The mention of dreams reminded him. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

<...>
“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams. “Hodor won’t go down into the crypts.”

Whatever Bran discussed with Ned he found it deeply disturbing, even more than his dream about the heart of winter.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Interesting.  Can we consider the icicle falling from the tree an attempt tp spear Jon's soul with ice?

This is the point where the raven begins it's attempt to wake Jon.   It feels like the icicle is a threat.  Just recalling how Sam meets the WW.  Starting with snow tumbling from a tree.  They are made of snow and ice and cold. 

All of this is possible for sure. These symbolic scenes are rarely straight forward to decipher, and often end up with varying opinions. I admit I change my mind regularly when reading symbolic text or on hearing different takes. 

I like the icicle as a threat plus symbolizing Ice idea, but why would Jon get stabbed by Ice? Perhaps original Ice, so therefore something akin to the WW's sword? Could the frozen tree symbolize the Others and Bran saves Jon? Not sure.

I've seen others interpret that scene as the moon representing the Others because of the cold language attached to the moons presence. The Others trying to call Jon back from death but Jon running and ignoring the calls. Then Bran is able to get Jon/Ghosts attention by dropping the icicle.

I'm not sure either way to be honest. If I was pushed to make a decision I think I would go with Bran in the tree and sending the raven. But I am open to different ideas with this scene.     

[LongRider]

10 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

I think I would go with Bran in the tree and sending the raven

The raven 'saves' Jon?  Why?  The raven later spills the beans:  Jon as a Corn King, a sacrifice to right the seasons to cycle normally perhaps?  Or perhaps to prevent that sacrifice? 

 

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 It would not hurt them to learn a few words of the Old Tongue and something of the ways of the free folk."

"Free," the raven muttered. "Corn. King."  Jon  VIII  ADoD***************

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn," the bird said, and, "King," and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow." That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.   Jon  XII  ADoD

 

 

[Wizz-The-Smith]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Time frozen is really interesting.  1st thought popped into my mind was Fire consumes while Ice preserves.  Fire couldn't really consume a river, but if Ice preserves time this frozen stream could be memories, hopes and dreams of the collective or individuals.  ?  Or could it be much more concise, like this moment or year is set aside for maybe a do over, or perfect outcome?  A frozen stream would be inaccessible except through an astral sort of movement, I would think at any rate.  Ice is solid and wouldn't allow any physical movement.  Time frozen could maybe thaw by fire warming the liquid of water back to it's original state.   Could this be what needs to happen to put the seasons and magic back into tact in this world?   What do you think could be contained in a frozen stream of time?  

I like it.

My first thought was that time flowed back and forth until you jump off (like visiting Ned in Winterfell) and then time (or the river) freezes so the Gseer can view that frozen moment in time. While I still like that idea, I end up thinking about whether or not it works or if I'm over thinking it etc. 

56 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The original quote was referring to the Wall, and what has the Wall frozen in time?  Well, not completely frozen perhaps, but if cold preserves an argument could be made that the Watch is 'preserved' in it's rather ancient thinking that the wildings are the enemy. 

This is cool. The Watch being preserved plays into the theory that the original Nights Watch were resurrected skinchangers or greenseers. Thus meaning their watch lasted a long, long time as they were undead (ice Wights or fire Wights) This also means they could get close to the WW to fight as they wouldn't feel the cold. Effectively becoming something like Coldhands. It's said Coldhands is very old, perhaps he is one of the original Nights Watch?

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

During my initial read through of the conversation (this is my 3rd now!), I thought I would take a look at "moon", "fire" and "dreams" in all of Arya's chapters.   I was hoping to find indicators of the descriptors of the state of the moon as seen in Bran's chapters.  Nada.  Of course, there were some very interesting findings off to the side of this research.  Arya dreams of being a wolf which I have to think is Nymeria calling to Arya. 

Yeah, no luck with the Arya chapters. 

As for the bolded, I think every wolf dream in the entire series is just skinchanging. Arya doesn't realise it, but she is simply inside Nymeria's skin when she (Arya) is asleep. There's a really cool wolf dream sequence in the Riverlands when she escapes Harrenhal. The mummers chasing Arya & co get attacked and killed by Nym while Arya is asleep. This is happening in real time, Arya thinks it's a random dream but it's her in Nymeria. 

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They thought they were hunting her, she knew with all the strange certainty of dreams, but she was hunting them. She was no little girl in the dream; she was a wolf, huge and powerful....

 

26 minutes ago, LongRider said:

The raven 'saves' Jon?  Why?  The raven later spills the beans:  Jon as a Corn King, a sacrifice to right the seasons to cycle normally perhaps?  Or perhaps to prevent that sacrifice? 

I think to avoid the Others making use of him. A corn king is sacrificed to bring in the spring, but is also resurrected. So Jon is sacrificed for the dream of spring and once resurrected will fight for one side or the other. So imo, the raven represents Bran or the Gseers trying to get Jon on their side. Of course opinions may vary on this, but that is my take right now. As I say upthread, I am open to changing my mind.  

Sorry if I've missed some questions, I'll check the posts again when I've got a few hours. 

[LongRider]

38 minutes ago, Wizz-The-Smith said:

It's said Coldhands is very old, perhaps he is one of the original Nights Watch?

Never thought of that before.  Would make a compelling reason as to why he is preserved.   
   If that was so, why couldn’t he go through the Black Gate?  Perhaps because he is no longer of the NW?  

   Magic spells and other wards to prevent the undead from passing through that gate?  Cold hands is an undead creature.

    I like the idea, but CH not being able to pass through the Black Gate raises more questions for me.   

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I had to put socks on to get through the post!  Burr.   I was looking into Arya and Mel in hopes of tying their fires or dreams or moons back to Bran, which took me nowhere.   However, your cold dreams glared at me in Melisandre's fire visions or dreams or whatever they are and seemed to match some of Aeron's dreams as we read in The Forsaken.   You've done a very nice job tying the cold dreams together.  There is an undeniable theme in these.   What would you make of thematically matching fire dreams? 

I have been trying to find keywords that link chapters and characters in the same way I linked the cold dreams by looking for shivering, shutters, ice and so. Most attempts fail, but some produce interesting themes. I am now looking at worms and it gives some nice links related to life, death and rebirth.

The first one from Davos III in ASOS comes from a discussion between Davos and Melisandre:

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“What is it you would have me see?”
“The way the world is made. The truth is all around you, plain to behold. The night is dark and full of terrors, the day bright and beautiful and full of hope. One is black, the other white. There is ice and there is fire. Hate and love. Bitter and sweet. Male and female. Pain and pleasure. Winter and summer. Evil and good.” She took a step toward him. “Death and life. Everywhere, opposites. Everywhere, the war.”
“The war?” asked Davos.
“The war,” she affirmed. “There are two, Onion Knight. Not seven, not one, not a hundred or a thousand. Two! Do you think I crossed half the world to put yet another vain king on yet another empty throne? The war has been waged since time began, and before it is done, all men must choose where they will stand. On one side is R’hllor, the Lord of Light, the Heart of Fire, the God of Flame and Shadow. Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. Ours is not a choice between Baratheon and Lannister, between Greyjoy and Stark. It is death we choose, or life. Darkness, or light.”
“So tell me, Ser Davos Seaworth, and tell me truly – does your heart burn with the shining light of R’hllor? Or is it black and cold and full of worms?”

Mel has a very dualistic view of the world and she links worms to death and thus to the Great Other. R'hllor is on the opposite side: fire, light and life

Next we have one from The Forsaken:

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“Urri!” he cried. There is no hinge here, no door, no Urri. His brother Urrigon was long dead, yet there he stood. One arm was black and swollen, stinking with maggots, but he was still Urri, still a boy, no older than the day he died.
“You know what waits below the sea, brother?”
“The Drowned God,” Aeron said, “the watery halls.”
Urri shook his head. “Worms … worms await you, Aeron.”
When he laughed his face sloughed off and the priest saw that it was not Urri but Euron, the smiling eye hidden. He showed the world his blood eye now, dark and terrible. Clad head to heel in scale as dark as onyx, he sat upon a mound of blackened skulls as dwarfs capered round his feet and a forest burned behind him.
“The bleeding star bespoke the end,” he said to Aeron. “These are the last days, when the world shall be broken and remade. A new god shall be born from the graves and charnel pits.” Then Euron lifted a great horn to his lips and blew, and dragons and krakens and sphinxes came at his command and bowed before him. “Kneel, brother,” the Crow’s Eye commanded. “I am your king, I am your god. Worship me, and I will raise you up to be my priest.”

Euron also links worms to death and the end of the world. But he plans to be reborn in the new world as a god.

Now we move to Arya and her escape through a tunnel:

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Arya rolled headfirst into the tunnel and dropped five feet. She got dirt in her mouth but she didn't care, the taste was fine, the taste was mud and water and worms and life. Under the earth the air was cool and dark. Above was nothing but blood and roaring red and choking smoke and the screams of dying horses.

Notice that for Arya the darkness, worms and the underground are life. Above ground there was Fire and Blood

We also have Arya healthy diet of worms and bugs:

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Part of her wanted to be a swan. The other part wanted to eat one. She had broken her fast on some acorn paste and a handful of bugs. Bugs weren't so bad when you got used to them. Worms were worse, but still not as bad as the pain in your belly after days without food. Finding bugs was easy, all you had to do was kick over a rock. Arya had eaten a bug once when she was little, just to make Sansa screech, so she hadn't been afraid to eat another. Weasel wasn't either, but Hot Pie retched up the beetle he tried to swallow, and Lommy and Gendry wouldn't even try.

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The work was hard, but no harder than walking miles every day. Weasel did not need to find worms and bugs to eat, as Arry had; there was bread every day, and barley stews with bits of carrot and turnip, and once a fortnight even a bite of meat.

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Later they passed through a burned village, threading their way carefully between the shells of blackened hovels and past the bones of a dozen dead men hanging from a row of apple trees. When Hot Pie saw them he began to pray, a thin whispered plea for the Mother's mercy, repeated over and over. Arya looked up at the fleshless dead in their wet rotting clothes and said her own prayer. Ser Gregor, it went, Dunsen, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling. The Tickler and the Hound. Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, King Joffrey, Queen Cersei. She ended it with valar morghulis, touched Jaqen's coin where it nestled under her belt, and then reached up and plucked an apple from among the dead men as she rode beneath them. It was mushy and overripe, but she ate it worms and all.

In this one we again get the images of fire and blood, but Arya finding life in the trees and worms.

Her links to the worms continue in the HoBW:

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"Let us see." The priest lowered his cowl. Beneath he had no face; only a yellowed skull with a few scraps of skin still clinging to the cheeks, and a white worm wriggling from one empty eye socket. "Kiss me, child," he croaked, in a voice as dry and husky as a death rattle.
Does he think to scare me? Arya kissed him where his nose should be and plucked the grave worm from his eye to eat it, but it melted like a shadow in her hand.
The yellow skull was melting too, and the kindliest old man that she had ever seen was smiling down at her. "No one has ever tried to eat my worm before," he said. "Are you hungry, child?"

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He is trying to scare me away, Arya thought, the way he did with the worm. “I don’t care about that.”
“You should. Stay, and the Many-Faced God will take your ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter His service must give up all that makes them who they are. Can you do that?” He cupped her chin and gazed deep into her eyes, so deep it made her shiver. “No,” he said, “I do not think you can.”
Arya knocked his hand away. “I could if I wanted to.”
“So says Arya of House Stark, eater of grave worms.”
“I can give up anything I want!”
He gestured at her treasures. “Then start with these.”

Now we can make a leap to Dany via a weak link to the worm in the apple and the words of her house: Fire and Blood:

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"It is such a long way," she complained. "I was tired, Jorah. I was weary of war. I wanted to rest, to laugh, to plant trees and see them grow. I am only a young girl."

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

"Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.