Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Just now, saltedmalted said: Aegon V. I would agree, however, he was seemingly unable to reign in his family, and put the good of the realm first and fore most. Not saying he should have gone the full Tywin with Jenny, but annulling the marriage and/or sending Jenny to the Silent Sisters and dragging Duncan to the altar would have been a reasonable response. Afterwards, I doubt that Jaehaerys, Shaera and Daron would have done as they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I would agree, however, he was seemingly unable to reign in his family, and put the good of the realm first and fore most. He was the only king who put the good of the realm over everything else. 5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: but annulling the marriage and/or sending Jenny to the Silent Sisters and dragging Duncan to the altar would have been a reasonable response. Duncan abdicated. Your "reasonable" responses make no sense when the heir is concerned. 5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Afterwards, I doubt that Jaehaerys, Shaera and Daron would have done as they did. Other than Lyonel Baratheon's (who deserves alll of the blame) rebellion Egg's children did not create any crises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, saltedmalted said: He was the only king who put the good of the realm over everything else. Not everything else, if he did, he would have chained Duncan to the altar and gained the support needed to actually change things for the better. 2 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Duncan abdicated. Refuse and still force him to marry. 3 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Other than Lyonel Baratheon's (who deserves alll of the blame) rebellion Egg's children did not create any crises. Jaehaerys and Shaera were promised to the Tyrells and Tullys, two great houses, that also control most of the food production in Westeros. They both shat on their betrothals. Daeron was promised to Olenna, though in that at least the fault wasn't his that the marriage never happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: he would have chained Duncan to the altar and gained the support needed to actually change things for the better. Wouldn't change a thing. Aegon's reforms were never going to work no matter what he did. 3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: he would have chained Duncan to the altar and gained the support needed to actually change things for the better. Forcing the heir is an extremely stupid idea. 3 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: They both shat on their betrothals. Those broken betrothals had no major repurcussions. I already mentioned Lyonel Baratheon's vainglorious attempt. Egg wanted those marriages because he wanted to change Westeros. He needed dragons not alliances with fickle lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, saltedmalted said: Wouldn't change a thing. Aegon's reforms were never going to work no matter what he did. If Houses Baratheon, Tyrell and Tully were behind them? Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 20 minutes ago, Groo said: What textual evidence there is points to Aerys being paranoid about Rhaegar not about Rickard Stark. It might be logical to surmise that Aerys was worried about some of his high lords as well, but you're right. There isn't any textual evidence for Aerys being worried about Rickard Stark let alone Robert. At least not prior to Lyanna's disappearance. That is correct. Aerys was afraid of his son and Tywin not Rickard or Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said: That is correct. Aerys was afraid of his son and Tywin not Rickard or Robert. I'm not sure. Aerys calling for Robert's head I think shows he was aware of the risk, and maybe of a potential anti Targ conspiracy. So I think Robert is part of those he was paranoid of. Though I doubt he was paranoid of Rickard, he killed him just because he had the gall to demand Brandon get a trial by combat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Just now, Alyn Oakenfist said: If Houses Baratheon, Tyrell and Tully were behind them? Why not? His reforms would impose limitations on their powers. Westeros needs structural reforms, not temporary alliances between the king and the great lords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Just now, saltedmalted said: Westeros needs structural reforms, not temporary alliances between the king and the great lords. And those structural reforms would have been done with those temporary alliances. 1 minute ago, saltedmalted said: His reforms would impose limitations on their powers. That's why the Tullys and Tyrells were offered. Both houses didn't have the most solid grip on their regions. A royal marriage would have fixed that, therefore it would have been acceptable for them to accept some limitations on their power if it mean a more stable powerbase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: I'm not sure. Aerys calling for Robert's head I think shows he was aware of the risk, and maybe of a potential anti Targ conspiracy. So I think Robert is part of those he was paranoid of. Though I doubt he was paranoid of Rickard, he killed him just because he had the gall to demand Brandon get a trial by combat. If the brother and the father of Rhaegar's lady love had gone to KL it's logical to expect for Robert's appearance demanding Lyanna sooner than later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said: If the brother and the father of Rhaegar's lady love had gone to KL it's logical to expect for Robert's appearance demanding Lyanna sooner than later. That would be the case, but if that's so why didn't he demand Benjen's head as well? He only demanded the two wards at the Eyrie, suggesting he was actively trying to break the STAB alliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilac & Gooseberries Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: That would be the case, but if that's so why didn't he demand Benjen's head as well? He only demanded the two wards at the Eyrie, suggesting he was actively trying to break the STAB alliance. Better get rid of the older people first and eve he knew that he wouldn’t be able to attack the North to get everyone. That’s why he attacked those South of the Neck first and then he was going to ask for Benjen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 18 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: And those structural reforms would have been done with those temporary alliances. Structural reforms cannot be done through temporary measures. They are structural for a reason. What little Egg did got washed out so easily by Tywin Lannister. 18 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Both houses didn't have the most solid grip on their regions. That is your opinion. 18 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: A royal marriage would have fixed that Why? 18 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: therefore it would have been acceptable for them to accept some limitations on their power if it mean a more stable powerbase. The great lords really do not need the IT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: And those structural reforms would have been done with those temporary alliances. That's why the Tullys and Tyrells were offered. Both houses didn't have the most solid grip on their regions. A royal marriage would have fixed that, therefore it would have been acceptable for them to accept some limitations on their power if it mean a more stable powerbase. The problem is, Duncan gave up all of his right to the IT for love. Such devotion doesn't dissapear, nor does a consumed marriage. Both Duncan and Jaehaerys consumed their marriages, and also married in secret. It wasn't Aegon V who fucked it up, but his sons, who pretty much did what they did when and where their father couldn't control them. On the other hand, this still does not make him the best king for me. On the other hand, we don't really know enough about most of those who ruled in the second half of the Targaryen era to compare them to who ruled in the first half of this 300 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Just now, Daeron the Daring said: On the other hand, this still does not make him the best king for me. Name another king better than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Just now, saltedmalted said: 19 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: A royal marriage would have fixed that Why? Because, the Tullys were seen as up jumped petty lord that got lucky with Aegon, while the Tyrells were seen as up jumped stewards. Marrying into the best bloodline in Westeros would have obviously helped that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 Just now, saltedmalted said: Name another king better than him. Viserys II seemed to have done great things even in just one year of ruling, not to mention carrying the realm of his back for decades while Daeron wared and Baelor prayed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saltedmalted Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Because, the Tullys were seen as up jumped petty lord that got lucky with Aegon, while the Tyrells were seen as up jumped stewards. Marrying into the best bloodline in Westeros would have obviously helped that. It is your opinion. They did not face any rebellions. 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: Viserys II seemed to have done great things even in just one year of ruling He did nothing to help the realm. 2 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said: not to mention carrying the realm of his back for decades while Daeron wared and Baelor prayed. Still showed none of Egg's drive to do good. He was a capable ruler but that doesn't mean he was a better king than Aegon V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron the Daring Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, saltedmalted said: Name another king better than him. Jaehaerys I, Daeron II and Viserys II. In that order. Aegon V would be a fourth to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alyn Oakenfist Posted March 3, 2021 Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 minute ago, saltedmalted said: He did nothing to help the realm. Instituted a new code of laws, massively increased trade, standardized the coinage, and made sure the realm suvives Daeron's and Baelor's follies. That's not doing nothing to help the realm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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