Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[Black Crow]

I'm enjoying this thread. Back to Basics or Back to the Future - in Heresy

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I don't understand your head canon/  Can you say some more about it.

It is amalgamation of many threads related to stone. More patterns than theory really. First we have Bran as the chained wolf:

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"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains," he said. "It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

Winterfell is Bran's stone labyrinth (compare this to the Minotaur prison) and also a monster tree:

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To a boy, Winterfell was a grey stone labyrinth of walls and towers and courtyards and tunnels spreading out in all directions. In the older parts of the castle, the halls slanted up and down so that you couldn't even be sure what floor you were on. The place had grown over the centuries like some monstrous stone tree, Maester Luwin told him once, and its branches were gnarled and thick and twisted, its roots sunk deep into the earth.

Winterfell had to be broken to free Bran and his powers from the prison:

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"You are the winged wolf, Bran," said Jojen. "I wasn't sure when we first came, but now I am. The crow sent us here to break your chains."

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Jojen gave a solemn nod. "I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth by chains of stone, and came to Winterfell to free him. The chains are off you now, yet still you do not fly."

Then we have the ancient powers turning into stone: the dragon eggs and the weirwood trees.

From there I got into the exiled lords linked to stone:

-The targs went into exile to Dragonstone and over time their source of power (the eggs) turned into stone

-Jon Con is an exiled lord turning into stone (from grayscale)

-Tyrion, heir to the Rock, is in exile

-Sansa is in exile in the Vale and turned into Alayne Stone

-Rickon is in exile in Skagos (meaning stone) with the stoneborn.

-Catelyn is now Lady Stoneheart

-Arya is an exile in Braavos, a city made of gray stone and she encased Needle in stone. Needle is her connection to her family and Winterfell

So...old powers turn to stone and Bran's powers were bound by the stone of Winterfell. I believe that this parallels the link between the Targs, the Doom of Valyria, their exile in Dragonstone and their fading power over dragons that ended with the Dance and Aegon the Dragonbane. Plus we have the "waking giants from stone" thread.

 

[Melifeather]

The old stories are just wildly inflammatory exaggerations told by the victors. I still believe the wildings are the Others. The Rat Cook story among others are grossly exaggerated with the intention of otherizing people in order to justify killing them. Think of how the Nazis otherized the Jews. Its easier to kill someone if you believe they are filthy, disease carrying, subhumans.

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Well, if Stannis is reprising the role of King Sherrit, then he doesn't necessarily have to be a king from the north. He just used the Nightfort as his seat while he made war on the Andals - just like what Stannis is doing. He believes he's Robert's rightful heir since Cersei's children were fathered by Jaime. His war is with the current "Andal administration". 

The whole business of Kings on the Wall needs closer examination. The Wall at the present time is manned by men who take an oath renouncing titles and crowns; beyond the Wall the ordinary people likewise renounce kings - except for electing a king beyond the Wall when needed

Then we're told of the likes of King Sherrit on the Wall, and those Andal kings [cursed or otherwise] going to the Wall and other prisoners from wars in the south who must have traversed the unconquered North to get to the Wall

Then there's the matter of the titles themselves, leaving aside the King of Winter. The Free Folk elect a King Beyond the Wall; the Starks of Winterfell are Kings in the North. Is there a significance to this in that neither are actually Kings over realms?

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Well, if Stannis is reprising the role of King Sherrit, then he doesn't necessarily have to be a king from the north. He just used the Nightfort as his seat while he made war on the Andals - just like what Stannis is doing. He believes he's Robert's rightful heir since Cersei's children were fathered by Jaime. His war is with the current "Andal administration". 

I like that.  I think there is some nuance to these stories and that they are played out once again in the current story. 

[LynnS]

45 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Then there's the matter of the titles themselves, leaving aside the King of Winter. The Free Folk elect a King Beyond the Wall; the Starks of Winterfell are Kings in the North. Is there a significance to this in that neither are actually Kings over realms?

Sorry, that's six kings:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell II

The old man heard him. Though Aemon's eyes had dimmed and gone dark, there was nothing wrong with his ears. "I was not born blind," he reminded them. "When last I passed this way, I saw every rock and tree and whitecap, and watched the grey gulls flying in our wake. I was five-and-thirty and had been a maester of the chain for sixteen years. Egg wanted me to help him rule, but I knew my place was here. He sent me north aboard the Golden Dragon, and insisted that his friend Ser Duncan see me safe to Eastwatch. No recruit had arrived at the Wall with so much pomp since Nymeria sent the Watch six kings in golden fetters. Egg emptied out the dungeons too, so I would not need to say my vows alone. My honor guard, he called them. One was no less a man than Brynden Rivers. Later he was chosen lord commander."

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient History: Ten Thousand Ships

The flames lit the coast for fifty leagues as hundreds of leaking, listing hulks were put to the torch and turned to ash; in the light of their burning, Princess Nymeria named Mors Martell the Prince of Dorne, in the Rhoynish style, asserting his dominion over "the red sands and the white, and all the lands and rivers from the mountains to the great salt sea."

Such supremacy was easier to declare than to achieve, however. Years of war followed, as the Martells and their Rhoynar partners met and subdued one petty king after another. No fewer than six conquered kings were sent to the Wall in golden fetters by Nymeria and her prince, until only the greatest of their foes remained: Yorick Yronwood, the Bloodroyal, Fifth of His Name, Lord of Yronwood, Warden of the Stone Way, Knight of the Wells, King of Redmarch, King of the Greenbelt, and King of the Dornish.

 

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The World of Ice and Fire - Dorne: The Coming of the Rhoynar

House Martell has guided Dorne for seven hundred years, raising its great towers at Sunspear, seeing the shadow city and the Planky Town rise, and defeating all those who threatened its dominion.

<h6 style="font-size:13pt;">The Names of the Six Kings Sent by Nymeria to the Wall, as Related in the Histories</h6> <b>Yorick of House Yronwood</b>, the Bloodroyal, the richest and most powerful of the Dornish kings deposed by House Martell. <b>Vorian of House Dayne</b>, Sword of the Evening, renowned as the greatest knight in all of Dorne. <b>Garrison of House Fowler</b>, the Blind King, aged and sightless, yet still feared for his cunning. <b>Lucifer of House Dryland</b>, Last of His Ilk, King of the Brimstone, Lord of Hellgate Hall. <b>Benedict of House Blackmont</b>, who worshipped a dark god and was said to have the power to transform himself into a vulture of enormous size. <b>Albin of House Manwoody</b>, a troublesome madman who claimed dominion over the Red Mountains.

 

Does anyone know the timeline for this 'ancient' history?

Nymeria - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

[Tucu]

I wonder if full list of the known kings at the Wall would help with untangling:

- Night's king

- King Sherrit; given that he cursed the andals, he should be from a First Men house

- Vorian Dayne, sent by Nymeria. First Men house but probably andalised by then.

- Garrison Fowler, sent by Nymeria. First Men house but probably andalised by then.

- Lucifer Dryland, sent by Nymeria. No information if First Men or Andal

- Albin Manwoody, sent by Nymeria. No information if First Men or Andal.

- Benedict Blackmont, sent by Nymeria. He workshiped a "dark god" and could transform into a vulture.

- Yorick Yrownood, sent by Nymeria. First Men house but probably andalised by then.

- Lord Commander Hoare. Not a king, but possible heir to Harren if he wanted to break his oath. Andalised Ironborn.

- Maester Aemon. Not a king, but possible heir to Maekar if he wanted to break his oath

- Bloodraven. Hand of the King, LC and now sitting in his weirwood throne.

 

 

 

[LynnS]

It sounds like the six kings were rival factions that Nymeria picked off and sent to the Wall.  It doesn't sound like they formed a coalition of any kind.  How cooperative would they have been with each other upon arrival at the Wall?  I can see the construction of several forts each with their own king.

Although it seems that Nymeria set the precedent.  How long ago did this take place? 

[Tucu]

6 minutes ago, LynnS said:

It sounds like the six kings were rival factions that Nymeria picked off and sent to the Wall.  It doesn't sound like they formed a coalition of any kind.  How cooperative would they have been with each other upon arrival at the Wall?  I can see the construction of several forts each with their own king.

Although it seems that Nymeria set the precedent.  How long ago did this take place? 

Tyrion, Haldon, Yandry place Garin's curse one thousand years ago. Nymeria took her people out of Essos at that time.

[LynnS]

4 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Tyrion, Haldon, Yandry place Garin's curse one thousand years ago. Nymeria took her people out of Essos at that time.

Oh!  So ancient history is not so ancient.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion V

"We'd do well not to breathe the fog either," said Haldon. "Garin's Curse is all about us."

The only way not to breathe the fog is not to breathe. "Garin's Curse is only greyscale," said Tyrion. The curse was oft seen in children, especially in damp, cold climes. The afflicted flesh stiffened, calcified, and cracked, though the dwarf had read that greyscale's progress could be stayed by limes, mustard poultices, and scalding-hot baths (the maesters said) or by prayer, sacrifice, and fasting (the septons insisted). Then the disease passed, leaving its young victims disfigured but alive. Maesters and septons alike agreed that children marked by greyscale could never be touched by the rarer mortal form of the affliction, nor by its terrible swift cousin, the grey plague. "Damp is said to be the culprit," he said. "Foul humors in the air. Not curses."

"The conquerors did not believe either, Hugor Hill," said Ysilla. "The men of Volantis and Valyria hung Garin in a golden cage and made mock as he called upon his Mother to destroy them. But in the night the waters rose and drowned them, and from that day to this they have not rested. They are down there still beneath the water, they who were once the lords of fire. Their cold breath rises from the murk to make these fogs, and their flesh has turned as stony as their hearts."

 

 

[Tucu]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Oh!  So ancient history is not so ancient.

 

Correct. One more bit of information: around 700 years ago Osric Stark was LC for 60 years.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Correct. One more bit of information: around 700 years ago Osric Stark was LC for 60 years.

Well alright.  What else do we know?

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A Storm of Swords - Bran IV

"This seems an old place," Jojen said as they walked down a gallery where the sunlight fell in dusty shafts through empty windows.

"Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest." But it had also been the first abandoned, all the way back in the time of the Old King. Even then it had been three-quarters empty and too costly to maintain. Good Queen Alysanne had suggested that the Watch replace it with a smaller, newer castle at a spot only seven miles east, where the Wall curved along the shore of a beautiful green lake. Deep Lake had been paid for by the queen's jewels and built by the men the Old King had sent north, and the black brothers had abandoned the Nightfort to the rats.

 

If the Wall is 8,000 years old and the Nightfort was built at the same time; that would make Castle Black 4,000 years old.

When the Andals were defeated at Moat Cailin was the losing army sent to the Wall?

[Black Crow]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

Well alright.  What else do we know?

If the Wall is 8,000 years old and the Nightfort was built at the same time; that would make Castle Black 4,000 years old.

When the Andals were defeated at Moat Cailin was the losing army sent to the Wall?

Leaving aside the true date of the Wall we're only told that the Nightfort is the oldest castle, but that doesn't necessarily mean its as old as the Wall. I do seem to remember we're told it's twice as old as Castle Black and there its significant that the reference is relating to the two castles rather than to the Wall

Anent Moat Cailin, leaving aside the discussion as to the true nature of that "castle" the point is that supposedly those southern armies failed for hundreds of years to get across the Neck because of the defences [including those "cold northern ghosts"] not that they lost a big battle there

And of course, in practical terms, if you have just mounted a successful defence of your fortifications, do you really want to bring the defeated army inside?

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Leaving aside the true date of the Wall we're only told that the Nightfort is the oldest castle, but that doesn't necessarily mean its as old as the Wall. I do seem to remember we're told it's twice as old as Castle Black and there its significant that the reference is relating to the two castles rather than to the Wall

Anent Moat Cailin, leaving aside the discussion as to the true nature of that "castle" the point is that supposedly those southern armies failed for hundreds of years to get across the Neck because of the defences [including those "cold northern ghosts"] not that they lost a big battle there

And of course, in practical terms, if you have just mounted a successful defence of your fortifications, do you really want to bring the defeated army inside?

Any ideas I have about a sudden influx of Andals at the Wall is slowly going down the tubes.  

[Tucu]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well alright.  What else do we know?

If the Wall is 8,000 years old and the Nightfort was built at the same time; that would make Castle Black 4,000 years old.

When the Andals were defeated at Moat Cailin was the losing army sent to the Wall?

The Night's King was the 13th LC and king at the Nightfort. This points to the Nightfort being built in the early days of the NW and being the only castle and passage though the Wall for a long time. Maybe until the arrival of the andals when the NW started punching holes through the Wall

[LynnS]

Just now, Tucu said:

The Night's King was the 13th LC and king at the Nightfort. This points to the Nightfort being built in the early days of the NW and being the only castle and passage though the Wall for a long time. Maybe until the arrival of the andals.

I still think the NK was not the 13th LC at the building of the Wall, but the 13th recorded by the Andals upon their arrival at the Wall.  The list of LC's is mince and I think there was more than one LC at a time, each with their own records for their own castle/fort.  As forts closed, those records were moved Castle Black.  I don't think there were any records before the arrival of the Andals.

[Tucu]

We missed one (or two) king at the Wall. The Rat Cook served an andal king his "prince-and-bacon pie". The world book identified this king as either King Tywell II of the Rock or King Oswell I of the Vale and Mountain

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We missed one (or two) king at the Wall. The Rat Cook served an andal king his "prince-and-bacon pie". The world book identified this king as either King Tywell II of the Rock or King Oswell I of the Vale and Mountain

I think some of these stories are newer rather than older than others.

[LynnS]

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A Dance with Dragons - The Prince of Winterfell

As the Lord of the Dreadfort slipped out, attended by the three maesters, other lords and captains rose to follow. Hother Umber, the gaunt old man called Whoresbane, went grim-faced and scowling. Lord Manderly was so drunk he required four strong men to help him from the hall. "We should have a song about the Rat Cook," he was muttering, as he staggered past Theon, leaning on his knights. "Singer, give us a song about the Rat Cook."

 

The fact that Manderley calls for a song about the Rat Cook makes it somewhat suspect.

[Black Crow]

46 minutes ago, Tucu said:

The Night's King was the 13th LC and king at the Nightfort. This points to the Nightfort being built in the early days of the NW and being the only castle and passage though the Wall for a long time. Maybe until the arrival of the andals when the NW started punching holes through the Wall

I'm inclined to agree with the caveat that the Black Gate crossing point may well precede the building of the Nightfort