Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[Black Crow]

9 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Not recalling the Garth Greenhand discussion, but it sounds like Herne the Hunter? (Amazingly, one of the cities in my neighborhood is named Herne LOL).

We have green men on the Isle of Faces - the third race?

May be a matter of alignment than ethnicity. As I've just noted the distinction between the "races" was probably very porous.

In simple terms lets look at Farmer Giles and his sons. Along comes a First Man and his household and slays their lord. taking over the land which they held under him. Farmer Giles, knowing what's good for him, bends the knee and takes a lease of his farm from the new [First Man] Lord and business goes on as usual, but his second son, with nothing to lose keeps up with the old lot and calls himself a Green Man

[Tucu]

40 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Not recalling the Garth Greenhand discussion, but it sounds like Herne the Hunter? (Amazingly, one of the cities in my neighborhood is named Herne LOL).

Here:

 

42 minutes ago, alienarea said:

We have green men on the Isle of Faces - the third race

There is an thread going from Garth (as a green god) to the Green Men protecting the Isle of Faces and the WW in the prologue:

Quote

Will turned away, wordless. There was no use to argue. The wind was moving. It cut right through him. He went to the tree, a vaulting grey-green sentinel, and began to climb. Soon his hands were sticky with sap, and he was lost among the needles. Fear filled his gut like a meal he could not digest. He whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood, and slipped his dirk free of its sheath

Quote

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

A white walker dappled with the colours of a sentinel tree.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

A white walker dappled with the colours of a sentinel tree.

Now there's a nice catch 

[Black Crow]

After all if a free spirit [to coin a term] can construct for himself a body from snow and ice in the middle of winter, there's no reason why he couldn't construct one from dust and leaves in the forest

[Tucu]

From Asha:

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Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors.

 

[alienarea]

I currently wonder whether the COTF created the Others as a Doomsday device, i.e. they realized they would not prevail against the First Men and wanted to take them out as well (mutual destruction).

Somehow the Last Hero changed their mind, the wall was build, and the doomsday device (Others) reset. 

I have a suspicion that the creation of the Others caused the seasons to go out of synch and that the various Bran Starks are loops connected to resetting the doomsday machine.

The current Bran Stark has to find a way to end the loop or will start another cycle.

Given that the ending is supposed to be bittersweet, I suspect the doomsday device cannot be disarmed but will be reset.

[LynnS]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

After all if a free spirit [to coin a term] can construct for himself a body from snow and ice in the middle of winter, there's no reason why he couldn't construct one from dust and leaves in the forest

 I think this is pretty good.  I can't see the WW's as another race or one of the old races when everything seems to be pointing to greenseers and soul transfer.  The idea that the Night Queen is one of the "Others" makes my head spin unless the Wildlings are Others as in not part of our tribe of humans.  The description of the NQ seems to be pointing to albinism, a rare condition and perhaps of significance to the Wildlings and COTF.  We have another example of his with the Ghost of High Heart.  The NQ may well have been a wood witch and the wildlings may have been closer to the COTF at one time than they are in the present story.  

If the cotf helped the last hero by providing a magical weapon, perhaps the helped the Wildlings by providing a magical horn

 

[alienarea]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

 I think this is pretty good.  I can't see the WW's as another race or one of the old races when everything seems to be pointing to greenseers and soul transfer.  The idea that the Night Queen is one of the "Others" makes my head spin unless the Wildlings are Others as in not part of our tribe of humans.  The description of the NQ seems to be pointing to albinism, a rare condition and perhaps of significance to the Wildlings and COTF.  We have another example of his with the Ghost of High Heart.  The NQ may well have been a wood witch and the wildlings may have been closer to the COTF at one time than they are in the present story.  

If the cotf helped the last hero by providing a magical weapon, perhaps the helped the Wildlings by providing a magical horn

 

I was wondering about the woods witches - greenseer connection. 

The color green is complementary to red but not a unique color, mixed out of blue and yellow. 

Garth Greenhand sounds like a gardener, over here we say someone with a well-growing garden has a green thumb.

[LynnS]

Has anyone listened to Radio Westeros episode on the Long Night?

Radio Westeros E8 - The Long Night - YouTube

They make an interesting case for the Dawn Sword being another name for Lightbringer and dragonsteel another name for dragonglass.  Also that AA is the same character as the Last Hero.

I'm not sure I agree with their contention that obsidian is too brittle and must have been reinforced with steel to account for AA's tale of forging the Red Sword of heroes (plural).  We seem to be talking about more than one hero and RW cites the oath of the NW "I am the sword in the darkness..." as evidence that the original NW was associated with the LH.

I think this is plausible and that the oath doesn't refer to one man but several companions.  The sword in the darness 9glass candle), the red sword (valyrian steel), the horn (of winter) and the shield (watchers on the Wall). 

I do think blood magic is involved in both igniting a glass candle and making a red sword.  So the tale of AA tempering/strengthening his sword in the heart of Nissa Nissa could also be the same method as strengthening an obsidian blade in the heart of a fallen star.  The fallen star being a reference to the sigil of House Dayne.   

So if AA was one of the heroes/companions; that would explain why Mel says that the Wall is as much her place as it is Jon's place.

The question is whether or not Valyrian steel of it's own can also slay WW's and whether AA is forging Valyrian steel for the first time. 

It's also interesting that RW speculates that the sword ICE is actually a sword of the Others that has been buried in the crypts of Winterfell. 

[LynnS]

In the same episode they discuss the NW starting at 58 minutes.  They cite this passage as evidence that the NW pre-dates the Wall:

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Bran III

Maybe they don't have sheep and cattle, Bran thought. He commanded the serving men to bring them mutton chops and a slice off the aurochs and fill their trenchers with beef-and-barley stew. They seemed to like that well enough. The girl caught him staring at her and smiled. Bran blushed and looked away.

Much later, after all the sweets had been served and washed down with gallons of summerwine, the food was cleared and the tables shoved back against the walls to make room for the dancing. The music grew wilder, the drummers joined in, and Hother Umber brought forth a huge curved warhorn banded in silver. When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking.

 

 

[LynnS]

RW also proposes that the first long night was a cataclysmic event that affected Westeros and Essos.  Is there any evidence that the WWs made an appearance during the reign of the NK or is this just an assumption based on the description of the NQ and the claim that he was sacrificing to the Others and breeding half-human children (wargs and skinchangers/greenseers). 

The assumption that the NK was the 13th LC on the Wall doesn't match up with the tale of the LH.  Is there any evidence of any other long night affecting Essos?

When the oath cites watchers on the walls; is there a wall that protects Essos besides the Shivering Sea?

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

 

 A curtain of light seems like an effective wall/ward for darkness.  

[Black Crow]

Given the direction the thread is currently moving, its helpful to look at the next section in the timeline:

Age of Heroes

ca. 10,000 BC

Age of Heroes: An era during the history of Westeros, which would be named so later for the great men and women who live in the years of peace and prosperity following the forging of the Pact. The Pact endures for nearly four thousand years, and in that time, the children of the forest and the First Men grow closer. In time, the First Men set aside many of their cultural differences to embrace the ways and customs of the children of the forest. With the exception of the Drowned God of the Iron Islands and the Lady of the Waves and Lord of the Skies of the Three Sisters, the gods of the children become those of the First Men. Many of the noble houses of Westeros today trace their lineage back to the Age of Heroes. This was the time when grand historical figures are said to have lived, such as Brandon the Builder, founder of House Stark in the north; Lann the Clever, founder of House Lannister, who winkles Casterly Rock from the Casterlys in the westerlands; or Garth the Gardener, founder of House Gardener in the Reach. Also during this the Storm Kings of House Durrandon arise in the stormlands—a line with figures such as the founding Durran Godsgrief, supposed builder of Storm's End—and the Grey King rules the ironborn of the Iron Islands.

ca. 8,000 BC or 6,000 BC

The Long Night: In this time, night seems to last for a generation, and the longest, coldest and darkest winter descends on Westeros. The ice spreads down from the north, and under the cover of darkness, the Others invade Westeros from the uttermost north, marching, killing and raising up the dead to be their servants in unlife and nearly destroying all men in Westeros. The Long Night comes to an end with the Battle for the Dawn. The children and the First Men unite to defeat the Others with dragonglass weapons, with the Night's Watch pushing them back into the frozen reaches of the far north.[5] Legendary figures from this time include the last hero and Azor Ahai, who wields a great sword of fire, Lightbringer. These events are believed to have occurred between eight thousand and six thousand years ago.[6] Building of the Wall: With the Others defeated, Bran the Builder, with the aid of giants, the First Men, and perhaps the children of the forest, raises the Wall, a monumental fortification of ice and ancient magic, to shelter the realms of men from the menaces of the north. The Sworn Brotherhood of the Night's Watch guards the Wall. It is said that Bran the Builder also builds Winterfell, becomes the first King of Winter, and founds House Stark. The Night's King: Not long after the Wall is complete, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch breaks his oath. He is seduced by an Other woman from beyond the Wall, declares himself the Night's King, and rises in rebellion with the Watch as his personal army. During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities are committed, of which tales are still told in the north even after several millennia. The Starks of Winterfell and the King-beyond-the-Wall, Joramun, join forces to defeat the Night's King and thus restore honor to the Watch. This is the same Joramun who also finds the Horn of Winter, which he is said to use to awaken giants from the earth.

As I said earlier, what's important in this legendary history is not the dates cited, but the sequence of events. In this section that sequence appears to be straightforward, but in looking at the overall story, there is a rather curious gap.

If we look at the previous section then we see a fairly straightforward succession of cause and effect, but what's notable here is that the Age of Heroes is offered as a Golden Age, and there is no cause offered for the Long Night. Rolling back, for example, we're told about the breaking of the Arm and the Hammer of the Waters being brought down by the Children - whether they really were responsible is neither here nor there. The point is that there is a story.

Turn to the Long Night and there's no story, it just happens and the White Walkers come for the first time - why?

 

[asongofheresy]

TWOIAF uses similar descriptions for Garth the Green, God on Earth, and First King of the First Men, in all three cases they are the first human in the areas they live, I assume this entity also has connections to Barrowlands and curse of the Barrow King, whose first victim will be Grey King his own younger brother. In turn Grey King can be the Merling King and Pearl Emperor figure 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Turn to the Long Night and there's no story, it just happens and the White Walkers come for the first time - why?

If the first long night was global, and up until then the First Men lived in peace with the COTF; could the cause or provocation be something that happened in Essos and this is why we have no explanation?

[asongofheresy]

Essos gives us myth of Amethyst Empress and Bloodstone Emperor as a possible reason but there are only mention of demons not the Others 

[Tucu]

Given the 40+ days without a sun around Winterfell (as logged by Asha), I am leaning towards the Long Night being an amalgamation of multiple long night events distributed by geography and time. Some probably hit a larger area and lasted longer than others.

 

[LynnS]

18 minutes ago, asongofheresy said:

Essos gives us myth of Amethyst Empress and Bloodstone Emperor as a possible reason but there are only mention of demons not the Others 

Radio Westeros E38 - Myths & Legends of the East - YouTube

 

[LynnS]

16 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Given the 40+ days without a sun around Winterfell (as logged by Asha), I am leaning towards the Long Night being an amalgamation of multiple long night events distributed by geography and time. Some probably hit a larger area and lasted longer than others.

 

How are you able to edit your post?

 

[Tucu]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

How are you able to edit your post?

 

Menu button (the 3 dots) then Edit

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

If the first long night was global, and up until then the First Men lived in peace with the COTF; could the cause or provocation be something that happened in Essos and this is why we have no explanation?

All things are of course possible, but I'd say not. The Long Night, the Wall and the Walkers are a ultimately a Westeros thing