LynnS Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 10 minutes ago, Tucu said: The prince that was promised prophecy is mainly associated with Dany, Targs and waking of dragons from stone, but prophecy is the domain of tricksters (specially GRRM) and there are threads that connect Bran to TPTWP. There is symmetry here in that Bran is also a prince who was promised to the COTF. He is also king's blood. So it may be that he is the blood (kin) who wakes the ice dragon, Jon Snow from his bed of ice. We have been set-up to think of Jon as the hidden fiery dragon. Perhaps the significance of RLJ is that he is the ice dragon instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 8, 2021 Author Share Posted December 8, 2021 16 minutes ago, Tucu said: Now into the pacts...if the people of the Last Hero (and/or the Starks) were First Men bound by The Pact, why it took so long to obtain the help of the friendly CoTF? This might be leading us to the cause of the Long Night and to the frozen hell for the Starks. In the legends of Yi Ti the Long Night was caused by the Blood Betrayal; and if we make a jump to Dante's Divine Comedy the Ninth Circle of Hell is a frozen hell were traitors are held: traitors to their kindred (kinslaying?), traitors to their country, traitors to their guests (guest right violations?), and traitors to their lords. Plus there is a place for Lucifer (Lightbringer) as the greatest traitor. He is a giant with three faces and wings that produce a cold wind. Broadly yes. As I remarked above it seems strange that the Long Night should appear to be a random event without an obvious cause rather than, say, the culminating event of the conflict between the Children and the First Men. However, if we look at it as the consequence of a Pact betrayed, then both the event and the difficulty/delay in obtaining assistance becomes explicable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 13 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Actually, if this was a part of the prophecy, it appears Aerys screwed up the order. Curiously Rhaego also died before Drogo. Prophecies are tricky? Blood magic is a commutative operation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 8 minutes ago, Tucu said: Curiously Rhaego also died before Drogo. Prophecies are tricky? Blood magic is a commutative operation? Many of the potential father and son kings died in the wrong order. Aerys and Rhaegar, in addition to Drago and Rhaego. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Many of the potential father and son kings died in the wrong order. Aerys and Rhaegar, in addition to Drago and Rhaego. Makes me wonder the order of the deaths of Egg and Duncan. I can imagine a maester laughing while he altered some ancient scrolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 12 minutes ago, Tucu said: Makes me wonder the order of the deaths of Egg and Duncan. I can imagine a maester laughing while he altered some ancient scrolls. LOL! Except for the Starks. They always die in the right order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 8, 2021 Share Posted December 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Tucu said: Makes me wonder the order of the deaths of Egg and Duncan. I can imagine a maester laughing while he altered some ancient scrolls. We’re given the bit about both the father and son dying as kings so late in the series, I also wonder if it has more to do with GRRM’s plans for Egg, Big Dunk, and Little Dunk’s fate at Summerhall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 I've got nothing today. I'd like to hear more about the frozen hell reserved for oathbreakers or the pact of ice and fire between Aegon and Torrhen Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 9, 2021 Author Share Posted December 9, 2021 34 minutes ago, LynnS said: I've got nothing today. I'd like to hear more about the frozen hell reserved for oathbreakers or the pact of ice and fire between Aegon and Torrhen Stark. I know nothing about the pact of ice and fire, although I seem to recall that the R+L=J crowd were speculating that a marriage was promised but never delivered Anent the frozen hell, I think that's partly my fault. The 7th circle of Dante's Hell is reserved for traitors and I speculated that if the frozen hell reserved reserved for Starks is for oathbreakers then that could explain a lot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I know nothing about the pact of ice and fire, although I seem to recall that the R+L=J crowd were speculating that a marriage was promised but never delivered Anent the frozen hell, I think that's partly my fault. The 7th circle of Dante's Hell is reserved for traitors and I speculated that if the frozen hell reserved reserved for Starks is for oathbreakers then that could explain a lot I was thinking of the Reed's oath of swearing by ice and fire. I assume that has something to do with whatever Aegon and Torrhen Stark agreed to which bound all Stark bannermen. Something to do with Aegon's and Alysanne's interest in the Wall and the Watch. Did her dragon refuse to cross the Wall because of wards or the pact of ice and fire. Did Aerys break the pact of ice and fire? Can you say some more about the bolded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 9, 2021 Author Share Posted December 9, 2021 Reeds oath sounds much older Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucu Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 2 hours ago, LynnS said: I've got nothing today. I'd like to hear more about the frozen hell reserved for oathbreakers or the pact of ice and fire between Aegon and Torrhen Stark. The extended account in F&B of the Pact of Ice and Fire between the Starks and the blacks has some very confusing details. Officially, Cregan Stark agreed with Jacaerys "Strong" Velaryon that if Jacaerys had a daughter she would marry Cregan's son. Nothing out of the ordinary there... Mushroom's version has the juicy bits: Jacaerys "Strong" secretly married Cregan's bastard sister Sara Snow in the Winterfell godswood. As stark has cognates in many germanic languages that usually mean strong...we get the marriage between two stark/strong bastards. Also according to Mushroom, Jacaerys/Vermax left some dragon eggs in the crypts. GRRM is probably going somewhere with this...but I can't make sense of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 37 minutes ago, Tucu said: Mushroom's version has the juicy bits: Jacaerys "Strong" secretly married Cregan's bastard sister Sara Snow in the Winterfell godswood. As stark has cognates in many germanic languages that usually mean strong...we get the marriage between two stark/strong bastards. Also according to Mushroom, Jacaerys/Vermax left some dragon eggs in the crypts. GRRM is probably going somewhere with this...but I can't make sense of it. My take on this is GRRM may be creating a stealth dragon rider ancestor in the Stark family line through their marriage of Arya Flint of the Mountain Clans. Bear with me, this is highly, highly speculative. Cregan Stark has a bastard sister he's very fond of, Sara Snow. He also has a childhood friend from the Mountain clans that he ends up marrying, Arra Norrey. Odds are that all three grew up together around Winterfell, thus odds are Arra Norrey was also probably close with Sara Snow. Cregan Stark marries Arra Norrey and she later passes away. In the meantime, Jacaerys Targaryen travels up to Winterfell where he apparently enters into some sort of relationship with Sara Snow. My guess is that Jacaerys may have left Sara Snow pregnant. Obviously Jacaerys is not in a position to do the right thing with Sara Snow, so instead, he pays off his debt to House Stark by entering into the Pact of Ice and Fire. In the meantime, my guess is Cregan Stark arranges a marriage for Sara Snow. And it's not a huge stretch to suggest that he might have turned to a House where both he and Sara Snow may have had a fondess for, through Arra Norrey. So Sara quickly gets married into House Norrey, and Sara's child (or possibly children if twins) with the dragonrider is raised in the Mountain clans. Now allow for several generations to pass, and assuming that Sara's child married into one of the other Mountain clans, we get a descendant from this liason, Arya Flint. who in turn marries into House Stark, perhaps passing on a dragonriding gene into House Stark. Thus we have the tale of a dragon egg being left behind in Winterfell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 Quotes about the soul: Quote A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII It was queer how sometimes a child's innocent eyes can see things that grown men are blind to. Someday, when Sansa was grown, he would have to tell her how she had made it all come clear for him. He's not the least bit like that old drunken king, she had declared, angry and unknowing, and the simple truth of it had twisted inside him, cold as death. This was the sword that killed Jon Arryn, Ned thought then, and it will kill Robert as well, a slower death but full as certain. Shattered legs may heal in time, but some betrayals fester and poison the soul. Quote A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle, Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty. So long as a man was brave and honest, Robert would treat him with all the honor and respect due a valiant enemy. This was something else: poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized. I wonder about the condition of Jon's soul; if it will be poisoned by betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 Just now, LynnS said: Quotes about the soul: I wonder about the condition of Jon's soul; if it will be poisoned by betrayal. Considering his last thought was Stick them with the pointy end I would suggest, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Considering his last thought was Stick them with the pointy end I would suggest, yes. Also, I wonder if the wildlings will do just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 This is a song about Stannis at Dragonstone; but you substitute Jon Snow at Castle Black, maybe even the Night King since Mel characterizes the Other as the Lord of Darkness: Quote A Storm of Swords - Tyrion VIII "The dark lord brooded high in his tower," Galyeon began, "in a castle as black as the night." "Black was his hair and black was his soul," the musicians chanted in unison. A flute came in. "He feasted on bloodlust and envy, and filled his cup full up with spite," sang Galyeon. "My brother once ruled seven kingdoms, he said to his harridan wife. I'll take what was his and make it all mine. Let his son feel the point of my knife." Against him stands the Great Other whose name may not be spoken, the Lord of Darkness, the Soul of Ice, the God of Night and Terror. ASOS Davos III Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 9, 2021 Author Share Posted December 9, 2021 51 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said: Thus we have the tale of a dragon egg being left behind in Winterfell. I've not read any of this and so don't want to begin to speculate, beyond the thought that if there was a Targaryen/Stark bastard, then the "dragon egg" is most likely a metaphorical rather than an actualone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LynnS Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Black Crow said: I've not read any of this and so don't want to begin to speculate, beyond the thought that if there was a Targaryen/Stark bastard, then the "dragon egg" is most likely a metaphorical rather than an actualone Right and considering that dragons are not necessarily actual dragons but blood of the dragon; this is likely to be a human child. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that such a match would produce a dragon with an affinity to ice rather than fire and I'm wondering if this is where RLJ is going. Or it's not about Jon riding one of Dany's dragons but the ice dragon. The ice dragon has a rider Quote A Clash of Kings - Bran V "Osha," Bran asked as they crossed the yard. "Do you know the way north? To the Wall and . . . and even past?" "The way's easy. Look for the Ice Dragon, and chase the blue star in the rider's eye." She backed through a door and started up the winding steps. The Wall is compared to the Ice Dragon, something Jon claims as his own, something that is repeated seven times in the text: Quote A Dance with Dragons - Jon XIII "I must do as I think best. With respect, Your Grace, the Wall is mine, and so is this decision." Patrolling the Wall is referred to as riding the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted December 9, 2021 Share Posted December 9, 2021 2 minutes ago, LynnS said: Right and considering that dragons are not necessarily actual dragons but blood of the dragon; this is likely to be a human child. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that such a match would produce a dragon with an affinity to ice rather than fire and I'm wondering if this is where RLJ is going. Or it's not about Jon riding one of Dany's dragons but the ice dragon. The ice dragon has a rider The Wall is compared to the Ice Dragon, something Jon claims as his own, something that is repeated seven times in the text: Patrolling the Wall is referred to as riding the Wall. Good catch. Half the Wall is also likened to a snake, like a dragon, while the other half is likened to a sword, something the dragons are also metaphorically compared to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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