Heresy 240: Ten Heretical Years

[asongofheresy]

12 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm going with the Wall is the 'hinge of ice': upon which related magic i.e. the White Walkers/winter are dependent upon or connected to.  The other hinge may be the hinge of fire.

So Mel tells Jon that he can access and use the power of the Wall.  So the Wall may be a reservoir of ice magic or a dam of sorts.  Dams function by containing and releasing their contents at different times.  Dams are also power sources.

 

 

 

Wall as ice magic hinge is the most logical conclusion, does fire magic, water magic, etc have their hinges as well? I assume HotU was a hinge for Qartheen? 

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, asongofheresy said:

Wall as ice magic hinge is the most logical conclusion, does fire magic, water magic, etc have their hinges as well? I assume HotU was a hinge for Qartheen? 

Since we are talking about the song of ice and fire; my guess is that there is or was a hinge of fire.  As for a water hinge; ice really qualifies as water but I would add the element of air to that magic since we are also talking about the cold winds and WWs are made of ice and snow and cold and when the spell is broken, they melt.

The fiery hinge could be the 14 flames or volcanos around the Smoking Sea in which case it would be a combination of earth and fire.  Dragon eggs being a kind of stone.  Although Dany does mention air as well, perhaps because oxygen feeds the fire.

Others have speculated that the Drowned God was a greenseer.

As for the Undying; I'm not sure if it's a magical hinge connected to ice or fire but rather something that feeds on life.

 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

This is making more sense to me.  It's applying a control on something that has to be contained.  It's binding ice magic and it's manifestation to the Wall.  When ice magic is being collected/contained by the Wall;  summer returns.  When ice magic is being released winter returns, and the Wall, it's wards and the Watch are the next line of defense.  That gives some meaning to the Stark (watch words) Winter is coming.

So at the moment,  I see the Wall as a a control, something that regulates summer and winter.  But I don't think it's the root cause.  I think that is tied to the heart of winter/soul of ice and until that is resolved the control can't be removed. I think the soul of ice has to meet it's opposite; the heart of winter has to burn; the soul has to be transformed from darkness, death and hate to it's opposite.

I'm not sure exactly where the Wall fits in, beyond a reluctance to see it as a military obstacle. GRRM says that he was inspired by Hadrians Wall and thought of the men manning it against the unseen threat from the hills beyond. In practice life on the Wall [his] was at once complex and less military and more political and cultural. Perhaps the way in Martin's world the emphasis has shifted to holding the Wall against the Wildlings rather than the Others is a fair reflection of that. Yet, we also know, and the Watch know that the Walkers are out there in the trees.

So cut the Walkers out of the threats, as well as the Wildlings and what's left - Winter

And that's where I think the real questions arise.

An easy answer might be that the cold winds came howling out of the North and the Wall was raised to hold back Winter

But then who raised those cold winds in the first place and why doesn't it seem to be holding them back now?

Alternatively, was the Wall raised not to defend the realms of men but to prevent those realms of men spreading northwards and so keep them out of the reservation?

If its the latter, then destroying the Wall might restore the balance - but doom the old races. If its the former, the dam may be weakening and soon to breach.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

the dam may be weakening and soon to breach.

This does seem likely.  What does this have to do with Bran and why are the cotf and BR concerned that Bran has come to them late?

[Black Crow]

26 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This does seem likely.  What does this have to do with Bran and why are the cotf and BR concerned that Bran has come to them late?

In the first place it depends on who Bran really is.

Bloodraven is old and effectively already dead in physical terms. Is Bran simply an urgently needed replacement as the next Greenseer?

or

Have the Children [and Bloodraven] been waiting for something more unique? 

[asongofheresy]

On 12/6/2021 at 1:04 PM, LynnS said:

Since we are talking about the song of ice and fire; my guess is that there is or was a hinge of fire.  As for a water hinge; ice really qualifies as water but I would add the element of air to that magic since we are also talking about the cold winds and WWs are made of ice and snow and cold and when the spell is broken, they melt.

The fiery hinge could be the 14 flames or volcanos around the Smoking Sea in which case it would be a combination of earth and fire.  Dragon eggs being a kind of stone.  Although Dany does mention air as well, perhaps because oxygen feeds the fire.

Others have speculated that the Drowned God was a greenseer.

As for the Undying; I'm not sure if it's a magical hinge connected to ice or fire but rather something that feeds on life.

 

Asoiaf magical world is complex and interesting, I wonder if its a good thing for hinges/dams to collapse or not? With HotU, we have Daenerys destroying them with fire but at the end survivors ended up with Euron. 

[Tucu]

41 minutes ago, LynnS said:

This does seem likely.  What does this have to do with Bran and why are the cotf and BR concerned that Bran has come to them late?

I think that BR/CoTF are sincere in some aspects. They do want to help humanity survive (the trees need them) and they have accepted the slow sunset of the older races. They probably want to restore an order similar to the one before Aegon's conquest. The wild card here is probably Bran and BR might be blind to the intervention of the 3EC.

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She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

 

[LynnS]

I have to go out and shovel my driveway.  

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A Game of Thrones - Bran III

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him. And he looked past the Wall, past endless forests cloaked in snow, past the frozen shore and the great blue-white rivers of ice and the dead plains where nothing grew or lived. North and north and north he looked, to the curtain of light at the end of the world, and then beyond that curtain. He looked deep into the heart of winter, and then he cried out, afraid, and the heat of his tears burned on his cheeks.

Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

 

 

[Tucu]

5 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I have to go out and shovel my driveway.  

This is a picture from the last "great snow" over here (1960):

https://www.valenciabonita.es/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Nevada-1960-Valencia.jpg

We are almost into winter and it is 16C (60F) and sunny outside

 

[LynnS]

15 minutes ago, Tucu said:

We are almost into winter and it is 16C (60F) and sunny outside

That looks like about as much as I got this morning.  It's melting, so it's heavy. 

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A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

"I only have two."

"You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it." He had a slow soft way of speaking. "With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall."

 

 

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, LynnS said:

With three you could see my heart

3EC's heart=heart of winter?

[LynnS]

11 minutes ago, Tucu said:

3EC's heart=heart of winter?

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Now you know, the crow whispered as it sat on his shoulder. Now you know why you must live.

"Why?" Bran said, not understanding, falling, falling.

Because winter is coming.

Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

 

The worst of his dreams involve the 3EC.

[Melifeather]

The problem with defeating the Others and then also having to build a Wall suggests that the defeat wasn't a final solution. Melisandre calls the Wall a "hinge". Hinges hold doors, so the Wall is a hinge that holds the door closed on something.

[LynnS]

This is a curious statement:

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A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Then you teach me." Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes, pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly. "You're a greenseer."

"No," said Jojen, "only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the world.

"The gods give many gifts, Bran. My sister is a hunter. It is given to her to run swiftly, and stand so still she seems to vanish. She has sharp ears, keen eyes, a steady hand with net and spear. She can breathe mud and fly through trees. I could not do these things, no more than you could. To me the gods gave the green dreams, and to you . . . you could be more than me, Bran. You are the winged wolf, and there is no saying how far and high you might fly . . . if you had someone to teach you. How can I help you master a gift I do not understand? We remember the First Men in the Neck, and the children of the forest who were their friends . . . but so much is forgotten, and so much we never knew."

 

How does Jojen come by the knowledge that some greenseers were greater than others in their abilities.  Is this something Howland told him, something that he learned on the God's Eye?  Jojen is also using past tense.

[Black Crow]

"the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls"

I can't help note that this might also be said of the Faceless Men

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

"the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or crawls"

I can't help note that this might also be said of the Faceless Men

I wonder if Mel is talking about the Faceless Men here:

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A Storm of Swords - Davos III

"My heart," Davos said slowly, "is full of doubts."

Melisandre sighed. "Ahhhh, Davos. The good knight is honest to the last, even in his day of darkness. It is well you did not lie to me. I would have known. The Other's servants oft hide black hearts in gaudy light, so R'hllor gives his priests the power to see through falsehoods." She stepped lightly away from the cell. "Why did you mean to kill me?"

 

The power to see through falsehoods; to penetrate their disguise/glamor.  Weaving with light:

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A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

Jon Snow turned to Melisandre. "What sorcery is this?"

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

 

So has she just identified the Other as the Many-Faced God?

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Melifeather said:

The problem with defeating the Others and then also having to build a Wall suggests that the defeat wasn't a final solution. Melisandre calls the Wall a "hinge". Hinges hold doors, so the Wall is a hinge that holds the door closed on something.

Yes, I have been thinking of the word hinge as a noun but it's also a verb.

[Black Crow]

"When the singer reached the part in "The Night That Ended" where the Night's Watch rode forth to meet the Others in the Battle for the Dawn, he blew a blast that set all the dogs to barking."

This passage is of course problematic when considering the timeline.

It flatly contradicts to "official" timeline that the Others were defeated in the Battle for the Dawn and then the Wall was built and the brave lads of the Nights Watch took responsibility for it.

In the first place we know nothing about the Battle for the Dawn. Its preceded by a golden age of Heroes, and the "Last Hero" may literally be just that; the last of them. So where do the Nights Watch come from? Are they the followers of the Last Hero [spear carriers as distinct from companion Heroes]. That would make sense, but there are no stories and the Nights Watch themselves know nothing about it.

The fact that Sam Tarly couldn't find anything and makes a point of saying so is a pretty strong plot indicator suggesting that there is something to learn and that it isn't what we've previously been led to believe.

Moreover, turning back to GRRM's warning about how the further back you go, certainty is replaced by myth and fog, there's actually nothing inherently unlikely in finding the Battle for the Dawn was actually the defeat of the Nights King and his blue-eyed allies. 

[Black Crow]

Moving aside slightly to look at those blue-eyed allies, in story-telling terms I'm not convinced that they are the Enemy.

We're a very long way into this story, but know very very little about them. They quite literally appear and then disappear again. There is no Nights King

Hopefully we'll learn a lot more with Winds of Winter - but perhaps not - although I'm inclined, given the silence to think that they are pieces rather than players. They're associated with the wights but do they actually lead them? Both are certainly a "symptom" of the cold winds, but that's not necessarily the same as being responsible

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Moving aside slightly to look at those blue-eyed allies, in story-telling terms I'm not convinced that they are the Enemy.

We're a very long way into this story, but know very very little about them. They quite literally appear and then disappear again. There is no Nights King

Hopefully we'll learn a lot more with Winds of Winter - but perhaps not - although I'm inclined, given the silence to think that they are pieces rather than players. They're associated with the wights but do they actually lead them? Both are certainly a "symptom" of the cold winds, but that's not necessarily the same as being responsible

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“And justice? Can that be found in caves?” “Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes…but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

“Are you saying you are monsters?”

“I am saying we are human."

 

Look for the monsters south of the Wall. The new "age of wonder and terror" is coming from humans.

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An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes.